Freedom of religion=Freedom FROM religion?? [Archive]

AChimp

Jul 1st, 2003, 03:49 PM

Religion has a few good ideas and reminds us all to play nice, not poke people with sticks, etc. However, since these values have already become ingrained in society and can be taught in a non-religious way, there's little need for religion anymore, IMO. I certainly don't find any problems getting along in life as an atheist.

In fact, most of the time I don't even consider any kind of belief when I'm going about my business.

Having said that, I don't think that religion will ever disappear entirely, but its influence will become less and less over time, as has been evidenced by events of the last century. I know I've used this example before, but it illustrates what I'm trying to say. In one episode of Star Trek: Voyager, Janeway tells some aliens that "we [humans] have grown beyond the need for those kind of beliefs." Of course, in the Star Trek universe, there are still religions, even among humans, so it still exists, but is inconsequential for the vast majority of people.

Immortal Goat

Jul 1st, 2003, 04:06 PM

Although I hate Star Trek (boy, am I gonna be crucified for that one...) I find that that was a VERY good example to express my point.

Sorry, religion, we don't need you any more.

Zero Signal

Jul 1st, 2003, 05:06 PM

To quote Stratovarius:

No Christ, God nor religion
Gave me the answers I was looking for
Arrogant hypocrites
Selling the key to heaven's door

I've got my own way
I don't care what you say
You speak your truth and I speak mine

Find your own voice
Unleash the power within
Go find your own truth and let (the) others be
Let your own light guide your way through life
Find your own way
Make your own paradise

Find your own voice
It's your own choice

Find your own voice
Unleash the power within
Go find your own truth and let (the) others be
Let your own light guide your way through life
Find your own way
Make your own paradise

Find your own voice
It's your own choice
Find your own voice
It's your own choice

"Find Your Own Voice", Stratovarius

:)

El Blanco

Jul 1st, 2003, 06:38 PM

An atheist dies and goes before God to be judged. Well, he was somewhat miffed with the Creator and wanted to know what went wrong.

"I thought you were a just and loving god. How can you let things like the Columbine shooting, corruption in government, death and destruction wrought by our military and all the other horrible things happen? Why didn't you stop all that."

God cocked an eyebrow and said, " You said it yourself. I have no place in government."

Protoclown

Jul 1st, 2003, 06:48 PM

Wow, gee thanks Grandma!

Whoops, sorry, thought I was reading one of her email forwards there...

Baalzamon

Jul 1st, 2003, 07:03 PM

"I thought you were a just and loving god. How can you let things like the Columbine shooting, corruption in government, death and destruction wrought by our military and all the other horrible things happen? Why didn't you stop all that."

Oh yes, you are absolutely right, because every one of us atheists uses that exact "why do bad things happen to good people" argument to justify our lack of belief.

We are all stupid, and blame the god (the same one that we dont even believe in; how does that work?) for everything wrong in the world.

Bad things happen because people suck. everyone knows that. It has nothing to do with a god or the lack of one.

If I die and it turns out there is a god, my first reaction would be:

"oh shit, sorry about not beleiving in you and all, it seemed to make sense at the time. forgive me?"

not

"Fuck you, your world sucks and I hate you!"

Just because I dont beleive there is a god, doesnt mean I would hate him or blame him for all the shit in the world if I was proven wrong, jackass.

AChimp

Jul 1st, 2003, 07:09 PM

I would kick God in the nads to make sure that he was real. Any guy that exists, heavenly or not, would go down. ;)

VinceZeb

Jul 1st, 2003, 09:13 PM

El Blanco, that was great.

I honestly can't see why any intelligent person would NOT believe in God. The list of the greatest minds of our time include an assload of people who believed in God.

Immortal Goat

Jul 1st, 2003, 09:13 PM

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Immortal Goat

Jul 1st, 2003, 09:16 PM

I honestly can't see why any intelligent person would NOT believe in God. The list of the greatest minds of our time include an assload of people who believed in God.

Their being great had NOTHING to do with their belief in a god.

And by the way, YOU believe in God, and YOU are NOT intelligent. So nya-nya-nya-fuck-you.

VinceZeb

Jul 1st, 2003, 09:27 PM

I think my IQ, my ACT scores and my hopefully acceptance to MENSA would think you are wrong in your assumptions.

AChimp

Jul 1st, 2003, 09:28 PM

I honestly can't see why any intelligent person would NOT believe in God.
I asked you to explain some of the scientific reasons you have to back up your beliefs, but you never bothered to respond. I can't see why any intelligent person would believe in God.

FartinMowler

Jul 1st, 2003, 09:31 PM

Vince I don't think that will matter if you go to heaven or hell you will still be an asshole.

The_Rorschach

Jul 1st, 2003, 09:35 PM

Very likely, assuming Christian doctrine is correct, Vince like many other Christians, will reach neither place. He would probably find himself in Outer Darkness, as described in the book of Hebrews and the Gospels.

Protoclown

Jul 2nd, 2003, 01:10 AM

I think my IQ, my ACT scores and my hopefully acceptance to MENSA would think you are wrong in your assumptions.

I prefer to think that your IQ, ACT scores, and MENSA acceptance are not sentient, and do not possess cognitive abilities.

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 01:23 AM

I think my IQ, my ACT scores and my hopefully acceptance to MENSA would think you are wrong in your assumptions.
Did you get a letter from Mensa asking you to join like the submarine letter? :lol

And just a clue for the clueless you: IQ and membership in Mensa do NOT make you any more correct than the next person.

Albert Einstein lamented his creation of the cosmological constant; a physics fudge factor to make certain calculations works. He later said he wished he had never made it up in the first place. Einstein had a brilliant mind, but that did not mean that he was correct.

But I guess anything is possible when you so proudly wrap yourself in arrogance and self-conceit.

pjalne

Jul 2nd, 2003, 03:10 AM

Einstein didn't believe in a sentient god either. And the MENSA test isn't all it's cranked up to be. I took it for fun once, and the result ended up above the average for members. Not saying you're MENSA material or that I believe you, just saying that that test isn't worth shit.

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 05:12 AM

"Albert Einstein lamented his creation of the cosmological constant; a physics fudge factor to make certain calculations works. He later said he wished he had never made it up in the first place. Einstein had a brilliant mind, but that did not mean that he was correct"

And they later found that it was true, hehe.

RELIGIOUS WORDS TO LIVE BY:
Back when I was in seminary school, a person there approached me with the propisition, that you could peition the lord, with prayer. Petition the lord, with prayer. YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD, WITH PRAAAAAYER.

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:14 AM

Wow! Great minds believe in God! I'd better start believing soon or someone's going to think I'm stupid!

VinceZeb

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:22 AM

I know the MENSA test isnt that big of a deal, but i just wanted to join. I've took their test online and got great results, so i figured what the hell?

And Einstein wasnt just the only guy that believed in God, and his belief still held until he died.

pjalne

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:32 AM

No, no. Read again. Einstein was NOT a Christian. He did not believe in an all-powerful entity that could control the Universe. He was a spiritual man, but no believer in God.

VinceZeb

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:33 AM

Now, I know you are not smart, but did I say they were Christians?

Nope.

pjalne

Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:32 AM

What?! 'They?' Who?

Mockery

Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:56 AM

The "many famous/great minds believed in God" argument is just as empty as the "many famous/great minds were vegetarian" one. Give it up.

http://www.i-mockery.com/church/bookmarks/mouths-small.gif (http://www.i-mockery.com/church/)

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 09:32 AM

I do not respect anyone less for not believing or believing. I ask the same of all of my friends. People will choose what they want to do, and I cannot change that so I do not ever try.

Tolerance is a virute that should be practiced by both sides. Atheist? Do not tell others that they are simple-minded and that religion is a crutch. Christian (or whatever)? Do not tell others that they are going to burn in Hell for not believing what you do. People who attack others because of what they believe or place faith in are most likely insecure about what they themselves feel regarding it.

And try not to confuse the message and the messanger. While I hold my own beliefs and interpretations of Christianity, I do acknowledge that religion is its own worst enemy at times, especially regarding the fundamentalist aspect of some of its followers.

VinceZeb

Jul 2nd, 2003, 09:39 AM

Yeah, but to Christians, they are going to hell if they don't believe in God or Jesus Christ.

Mockery

Jul 2nd, 2003, 09:46 AM

Not all Christians believe that. Just the "holier than thou" asshole ones. I've known plenty of Christians that don't think that way.

They think I'm going to hell for entirely different reasons.

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 09:47 AM

That does not mean that they have to come to my front door to tell me, or acost me in public. :/

AChimp

Jul 2nd, 2003, 09:57 AM

Einstein's firm belief in a God prevented him from applying his mind to several areas of physics that he believed were too chaotic. Like a lot of the quantum physics theories at the time that were considered really far out, but later also proven true.

He stated several times that "God would not be random", "God would not create something like that" etc, etc. Einstein was right about a lot of things that couldn't be proved at the time, but in the end, his beliefs really limited the areas that he studied.

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:01 AM

He stated several times that "God would not be random", "God would not create something like that" etc, etc. Einstein was right about a lot of things that couldn't be proved at the time, but in the end, his beliefs really limited the areas that he studied.
Specifically, "God does not play dice". heh

ziggytrix

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:09 AM

What I fail to understand is how any intelligent person can claim absolute knowledge of the Absolute?

Agnostic, and proud!

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:21 AM

What I fail to understand is how any intelligent person can claim absolute knowledge of the Absolute?
I certainly do not claim any absolute knowledge, and I am wary of anyone that does.

I am more of a scientific version of the Christian belief. I believe the Earth is as old as science says it is, that the dinosaurs did exist and ridicule the notion of the Earth being only ~6000 years old. I do not see any reason why science cannot coexist with Christianity, since they should do so logically if God created everything, including what science is founded on. heh

The universe is a wonderful and complex beast, and whether you believe it was created by God, the Big Bang, or a Big Bang started by God, to claim overriding knowledge of its absolutes is ludicrous at best. A true Christian will be the first to tell you that he does not understand everything or even a fraction of the way that God works in the world. We very wary of any that tell you that they do.

AChimp

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:25 AM

NONSENSE! THE BIBLE TELLS US WHAT TO BELIEVE! >: >:

Vibecrewangel

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:30 AM

People who attack others because of what they believe or place faith in are most likely insecure about what they themselves feel regarding it.

My feelings exactly!

VinceZeb

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:44 AM

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:47 AM

People should find things for themselves. Someone telling you that you are going to Hell for not believing in God is NOT going to endear you towards what they are selling.

VinceZeb

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:52 AM

Yes, I know. But sometimes the truth isnt rosy.

ziggytrix

Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:58 AM

Apparently, Vince is an example of someone who thinks they have absolute knowledge of the Absolute.

What a pompous fool!

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 11:02 AM

More like Vinth thinks he is the Absolute.

VinceZeb

Jul 2nd, 2003, 11:02 AM

I believe certain things. So thus, I have certain beliefs I feel that are truth.

Zhukov

Jul 2nd, 2003, 11:21 AM

Vince, do you follow Jesus' teachings or the church?

Mockery

Jul 2nd, 2003, 11:25 AM

Yet you still don't understand that what you feel is "truth" hasn't been proven to be a "fact" by any means.

There's good Christians. There's bad Christians. There's good Atheists. There's bad Atheists. Believe in whatever you want, but don't pull this whole "burning in hell" bullshit. We don't need a walking, talking preachy pamphlet.

kellychaos

Jul 2nd, 2003, 11:32 AM

The Mormon fella that came to my house told me that there are only a couple of thousand seats left in the sky ... and I got mine already. Good luck, suckas! :)

Protoclown

Jul 2nd, 2003, 12:59 PM

I'm a Christian by the most basic definition, Vince, and I don't think my Atheist friends (of which there are many, and I am not bothered by their beliefs) are all "GOING TO HELL". :rolleyes

Nor do I think Hell is a hot place with lava and fire and bullshit like that.

Mockery

Jul 2nd, 2003, 01:03 PM

Nor do I think Hell is a hot place with lava and fire and bullshit like that.

Hell is a place where Vince teaches us "grammer".

mburbank

Jul 2nd, 2003, 01:19 PM

"I think my IQ, my ACT scores and my hopefully acceptance to MENSA would think you are wrong in your assumptions."

"I've took their test online and got great results...

-VINTH GENIUTH!

I've took a look at your hopefully acceptance. Your scores is unreflective and are a false indicator.

Who but you could be bragging about their intelligence and say "I've took" ? Who but you, braggging about their intelligence would use the phrase "My hopefully acceptance to Mensa"?

I couldn't make you up. You are a priceless internet resource, a living treasure. You are so much more than just te dumbest person on I-mock. You are a true comic idiot savant.

"Oh! You Jew from a place that is Jewish! Why don't you and your Jewish looking nose go be greedy and eat foods your people like while I say some things about the holocaust!"
-Vinth Goebelth

AChimp

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:00 PM

I know the MENSA test isnt that big of a deal, but i just wanted to join. I've took their test online and got great results, so i figured what the hell?

http://www.mensa.org/workout.html

This quiz is provided for entertainment purposes only; it is not an IQ test. This score will not qualify you for Mensa.

:blah

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:21 PM

Proto brought up something that reminded me of something.
According to the Bible, Hell is not necessarily "fire and brimstone".

It is technically eternal seperation from God, whatever form that may take.

Incidently, Hunter S. Thompson has an interesting take on Hell:

"If there is, in fact, a Heaven and a Hell, all we know for sure is that Hell will be a viciously overcrowded version of Phoenix..."

;)

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:28 PM

Yea, some Christians came into my work one day and left flyers about that one day. I thought it was good of them. Christians who do things that aren't all rhetoric. GOD SAVED YOU, ACCEPT HIM OR BURN IN HELL. :(

Immortal Goat

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:30 PM

Then, Mockery, you know christians that aren't really that good.

If you have been introduced to God and Jesus Christ (and I don't mean in person, dumbasses) and you deny the divinity of the Creator or His Son, well, hell is hot and make sure you pack a icechest.

See, that's the mentality that I hate. Just because someone KNOWS about Jesus and God, and stuff like that, does NOT mean that they HAVE to believe it to be "saved". Who says that YOU are right, Vince? Who??? What if the Bible is a lie? Have you ever CONSIDERED this idea? NO?? Well, then, you are nothing but a sheep.

Religion is nothing but a form of control excercised over the so-called "saved" people to keep them in conformity, which society demands. They FEAR individuality, and therefore condemn free-thinkers.

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:40 PM

I would find it kind of sad and ironic if God was so lonely he damned anybody who didn't believe in him. What the fuck does that matter. You're a fucking idiot if you actually think that.

When people are DIVINELY JUDGED for things they believe in and not their actual values, it's not very Divine. I know you're asking why. Why would a divine God be "Selfish" and "Arrogant"(A perfect Loving God, no less, contradictive to the first half of the bible) to only allow people who "Like and love" him into his holy land. Why would the "Cool Kids" be assholes for not letting geeks into the party. It's like mass discrimination based on some childish scheme, God wants all his blocks stacked just the way he likes, and his peaches and cream at just the right temperature, or else. OR ELSE BITCHES. SUCK MY COCK OR DIE. YOU DIDNT SUCK MY COCK. OFF TO HELL.
WHAT, YOU LIVED A REALLY GOOD LIFE, NEVER KILLED A PERSON, NEVER STOLE, LOVED CHILDREN(in a nonsexual way), NEVER TOUCHED DRUGS, DONATED 31847031874 DOLLARS TO CHARITY, SAVED THE WORLD(twice) LIKE GHANDI, AND SAVED ALL THE PUPPIES FROM THE POUND? That's great. Oh but wait, I see you don't believe in me, that ticks me off, your God and savior needs the attention and love, off to hell you go.

God's an attention whore?

Zhukov

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:54 PM

See, that's the mentality that I hate. Just because someone KNOWS about Jesus and God, and stuff like that, does NOT mean that they HAVE to believe it to be "saved". Who says that YOU are right, Vince? Who??? What if the Bible is a lie? Have you ever CONSIDERED this idea? NO?? Well, then, you are nothing but a sheep.

It's the mentality that I hate as well. However, I think you are as desrving of the 'mentality' title as vince is. You argue for your team just as he does.

Mockery

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:56 PM

It's the mentality that I hate as well. However, I think you are as desrving of the 'mentality' title as vince is. You argue for your team just as he does.

Wait, is that the "internal" or the "external" mentality you're talking about?

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 02:57 PM

MOCKERY'S GONNA BAN YOU INTO NEWBIE-BAN-HELL BECAUSE YOU DIDNT KISS HIS ASS :(

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 03:02 PM

It is truly amazing how some of you, especially kahljorn and Immortal Goat, attempt to debate about things that you have no concept of, and indeed, no practical knowledge regarding them. The posts above make that painfully evident.

You are the classic closeminded, intolerant atheist. Everyone else is stupid for believing what they do. I've known Mockery for 10 years now, and not ONCE has he told me that I was stupid for believing what I do, or placing faith in something that is invisible to human eyes and intangible to human touch. I suppose it is too much to ask that you could be as tolerant and openminded.

You place your faith in humanity. I place mine elsewhere because the flesh will fail. I believe what I believe because of something called faith, NOT what some church or religion tells me. I feel it from within, not from without; my very core of being tells me that what I believe is right for me. I do not fear death, for to me it is not and end, but a beginning.

Find your own voice and do not presume that you know more than the next person. You are no different than those that tell others that they are going to Hell for not believing.

Immortal Goat

Jul 2nd, 2003, 03:05 PM

It's the mentality that I hate as well. However, I think you are as desrving of the 'mentality' title as vince is. You argue for your team just as he does.

I, however, NEVER said that MY beliefs were fact and that you HAD to accept them or something bad would happen to you.

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 03:08 PM

You should respect my opinion that I hate your opinion, if you ask me.

And I didn't mean to offend you, I'm just being a jerk, it's jerk day for me. I could've said what I meant nicer. Like, I don't think God judges people based on if they believe in him or not, I think he judges them based on their actual value and what kind of life they lived. I think it even says that somewhere in the bible.

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 03:21 PM

I respect opinions when they are informed opinions. The posts above were devoid of informed theories about what you were talking about. I do not discuss advanced quantum dynamics or offer my opinions on it because I am not nearly informed enough to engage in a debate over it. The same goes for you regarding the post above.

I do agree to disagree on the point, however. I am not trying in any way to change your mind regarding it.

WorthlessLiar

Jul 2nd, 2003, 05:20 PM

I'll limit this religious rant to Xianity, but let me say that I have no love for Western religion in general.

I think Vinth actually does have a point here. Intolerance is, in fact, hardwired into Christianity. JC himself said that no man may cometh unto the father but by him. This inspired and justified the murders of millions over the coming centuries. It's ok if we use lethal force to make them convert because we'll be saving their souls. Now we get to use fear to reinforce our self-righteousness. Sure, one could say that the passage is not meant to be taken literally. Maybe Jesus was saying that the way to true peace is by self sacrifice and love for one another. If Jesus really intended for his words to have an impact he should have chosen them more carefully and not have provided for so much bloodshed on his behalf. Or perhaps he meant it literally which would simply make him an asshole. Additionally, mainstream Christianity in America advocates a literal interpretation of the bible (40% of Americans are creationist).

Christianity is responsible for bloody crusades, cruel persecution, and the existence of people like Vinth. I would advise those of you who are reasonable christians to simply boycott it. You can keep some of the values without attatching yourself to the institution which, in many instances, does not represent what you truly believe.

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 05:29 PM

I may have said this before, and I probably have, but I think Jesus Christ was the Anti-christ by means of misconstrusion(if that's a word, trying to hint at people took what he said and misunderstood it or took it the wrong way) and corruption. I have "Scripture" to back it up, if rather slightly so!

Zero Signal

Jul 2nd, 2003, 05:47 PM

I think Vinth actually does have a point here. Intolerance is, in fact, hardwired into Christianity. JC himself said that no man may cometh unto the father but by him.
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same being in different forms.

This inspired and justified the murders of millions over the coming centuries. It's ok if we use lethal force to make them convert because we'll be saving their souls. Now we get to use fear to reinforce our self-righteousness.

...

Christianity is responsible for bloody crusades, cruel persecution, and the existence of people like Vinth.
Man is responsible for that, not Christianity. I do not see ANYWHERE in Christ's teachings that say to go out and torture and kill people if they do not convert.

I would advise those of you who are reasonable christians to simply boycott it. You can keep some of the values without attatching yourself to the institution which, in many instances, does not represent what you truly believe.
I think I come closer to agreeing with you on that part. I discarded organized religion about 7 years ago because the church is full of old thought, and highly unlikely to foster any change.[/b]

Protoclown

Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:22 PM

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:31 PM

And I was hoping to get some Fried fish from those lakes.. I bet that's where Long John Silvers gets their fish from.

AChimp

Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:34 PM

During an e-mail debate with a bunch of Christian fundamentalist-types, we eventually came to this topic of Hell and believing in Jesus keeping you from Hell.

I asked, what about all the other hundreds of religions that say YOU are going to the bad place for not believing them? Well, they said, those religions are just as valid as Christianity, because Christianity teaches us to be accepting. But, Christianity is the only "true" religion.

Right, I said. So why do you go around trying to convert people if their beliefs are just as valid as yours? "We believe we are helping them see the real truth."

Stupified by this, I asked them how they could view someone else's different beliefs as valid, yet still feel that the "valid belief" is not the correct one. By trying to convert someone, you are basically only paying lip service to the validity of their religion, while attempting to cram yours down their throat... No answer.

Such is the paradox of Christianity. :/

Immortal Goat

Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:36 PM

And I was hoping to get some Fried fish from those lakes.. I bet that's where Long John Silvers gets their fish from.

I wouldn' t be surprised at all. THEY are the reason I hate seafood. In fact, my doubting of a god is also because of Long John Silvers. If there WERE a just and loving god, He wouldn't let that sort of place exist!!

ziggytrix

Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:56 PM

I asked, what about all the other hundreds of religions that say YOU are going to the bad place for not believing them?

That question alone sums up why I'm agnostic.

Vibecrewangel

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:00 PM

Me too
Me too

CaptainBubba

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:29 PM

Simple mathmatics tells us that anything falling into the category of "metaphysical" is not worth believing in. As "god's" nature is not known by any human, nor could it ever be, as it is beyond our physical comprehension by the very nature of its design, no one can tell you what god actually is, or what an afterlife would be composed of if it does in fact exist.

The probability of any religion or spiritual idea being correct is 1/ infinity, which is approximately equivalent to 0.

Even if a massive hand were to reach forth from the heavens and speak of salvation through a given path, what is to tell us that this is not some deception by "god's" twin brother, Tim, who is the prince of beastiality and seashells?

The excuse that "god is beyond out comprehension" is a two way road, as it means we, not even in our supposed afterlives will know what the flying fuck is going on. On the other hand, if god is within our comprehension, then eventually it could be proven or disproven.

Religion is good for making small children behave and serving as a comfort to those unable to cope with the harsh and cold idea of oblivion.

I myself am not mentally capable of believing because I think too much. Not one theory, statement, or observation regarding religion has ever given me a reason to beleive in anything besides the physical world I percieve around me.

I made a comic about this thats actually my favorite one I've made, but stripcreator's down. :tear

Immortal Goat

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:41 PM

Wow, my entire thought pattern summed up in a nice short post. Thank you CaptainBubba, I salute you for being your own man.

ziggytrix

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:43 PM

"The probability of any religion or spiritual idea being correct is 1/ infinity, which is equivalent to 0."

One divided by infinity is approximately equivalent to 0. It is not actually 0. This is especially fallacious in describing a probabilty, which no matter how small, is still significant if not equal to zero.

CaptainBubba

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:46 PM

For all intesive math purposes its usually just considered 0. But to be fair I edited it. Sorry if you find what I said misleading. And in the context of the metaphysical world it really isn't signifigant, but I do agree with you.

The fact remains that because there are infinite possibilities, stating that you know which one is correct is proposterous, highly arrogant, and ignorant.

AChimp

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:48 PM

Even if a massive hand were to reach forth from the heavens and speak of salvation through a given path, what is to tell us that this is not some deception by "god's" twin brother, Tim, who is the prince of beastiality and seashells?
Again, I've mentioned this before, but there's no way to tell "God" apart from a technologically advanced alien (I think it was Carl Sagan who proposed this originally). If God came down to Earth tomorrow, any miracles that he might perform could potentially be attributed to a piece of technology that we have no understanding of. It could even be a biological feature that allows him to manipulate matter and is particular to his race (a la energy beings from Star Trek or something).

The excuse that "god is beyond out comprehension" is a two way road, as it means we, not even in our supposed afterlives will know what the flying fuck is going on. On the other hand, if god is within our comprehension, then eventually it could be proven or disproven.
I think that if humans survive long enough, we will eventually know everything, or at least enough to say that we know everything compared to what we know right now. Might take millions of years, but whatever. ;)

There's nothing that humans can't understand eventually.

ziggytrix

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:52 PM

No, no, no. In the context of the metaphysical it IS significant. Surely it is as significant as the probablity of life generating from crude matter on a previously lifeless planet. Which, while being incredibly small, is indeed not zero.

Is it any less arrogant to say "there is no god" than to say "my notion of god is better than yours"?

Immortal Goat

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:53 PM

CaptainBubba

Jul 2nd, 2003, 07:54 PM

Those are also conclusions that fall within the infinite possible scenarios. My statement was that all conclusions on god are arrogant. What your conclusion on the metaphysical world is is completely irrelevant.

El Blanco

Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:00 PM

I myself am not mentally capable of believing because I think too much. Not one theory, statement, or observation regarding religion has ever given me a reason to beleive in anything besides the physical world I percieve around me.

My neighbor's dog has the same philosophy about life. All that matters is what he can see, hear or smell.

CaptainBubba

Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:07 PM

OMG whats wrong with his taste buds and nerve endings? poor dog!

chrissi

Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:49 PM

Well, here's my stance on it.

I'm, for the most part, an atheist, but I suppose I could be called agnostic as well. I think that there probably is no God, because it makes the most sense to me. However, I admit that any religion could be right. Therefore, I will not commit to any of them, because who am I to say which one is infinitely right? Only God would know such things. Just the fact that there are so many religions makes the possibility of each one being right just that little bit smaller, like the math someone mentioned earlier. I dislike Christians who say the bible must be right just because, er, it's the bible and it must be right! And Christians who have never considered the possibility of their idea not being right. That's just ignorant. You know, the ones who try to convert you and all that shit.

Immortal Goat

Jul 2nd, 2003, 09:43 PM

That is why I believe in re-incarnation. It makes sense to me, and I don' t need to worry about displeasing any god, because i just get re-born at the time of my death. Isn't that marvelous?

kahljorn

Jul 2nd, 2003, 09:57 PM

From what I understand of Christianity, God is seen as God of all things. He's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Besides the things about this that could create long tiring arguments about how he is evil as well(jewish God :(), doesn't being God of EVERYTHING also make him the God of other religions as well? I mean he's supposed to be EXISTANCE, not necessarily a person, EXISTANCE. Anyway.

Back when I used to live in my old city, my friend and I were walking by this park that alot of people went to to play sports and crap, there was some kind of Christian thing going on. All old people who seemed like they were reasonably intelligent and stuff, talking about God and such. After some talk, my friend and I decided to ask him this:
"Okay, so there's a man, he has lived a really nice life. He had a family, kids, they were raised good, no abuse. He never killed anyway, and in fact followed all the Rules Christianity says to follow(ten commandments). He was a Good Person, but he was not a Christian. Then there's a serial murderer, in prison, who decides to repent for his sins before he gets his lethal injections. The Man who killed 50 people who repented to God is more likely to go to heaven than the man who actually lived his life GOOD"?

I would appreciate if someone out there could answer that question.

Jeanette X

Jul 3rd, 2003, 12:30 AM

I honestly can't see why any intelligent person would NOT believe in God. The list of the greatest minds of our time include an assload of people who believed in God.
Plenty of great thinkers were atheists and agnostics. Shall I name a few dozen?

God cocked an eyebrow and said, " You said it yourself. I have no place in government."

Why yes, if we had forced prayer every day, and a big ol' ten commandments put up, nobody would ever do anything wrong. :blah Society would just peachy keen, just like when the Puritans hanged witches and killed off Indians.
Then, Mockery, you know christians that aren't really that good.

If you have been introduced to God and Jesus Christ (and I don't mean in person, dumbasses) and you deny the divinity of the Creator or His Son, well, hell is hot and make sure you pack a icechest.
Yes Vince, you and your love of your enemies, kindness, and forgiveness of those who have wronged you really makes you an exemplary Christian. :blah
I don't see you being particulary Christ-like, you fucking arrogant hypocrite.
Yes, I know. But sometimes the truth isnt rosy.
Anybody ever tell you that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinigar? Everyone knows that Christians believe that any non-Christian is going to hell. Just telling that isn't going to convert them.

Jeanette X

Jul 3rd, 2003, 12:33 AM

Triple post. :(

Jeanette X

Jul 3rd, 2003, 12:36 AM

Triple post. :(

Baalzamon

Jul 3rd, 2003, 01:11 AM

Everyone knows that Christians believe that any non-Christian is going to hell. Just telling that isn't going to convert them.

The christians I like the most are the ones that constantly tone down their message and re-interpret it to point that it has lost all of its original meaning, just to try and coax me into their belief system. It only shows me how flexible the whole idea is, and reminds me that in the end, god cares more about what I do and why, rather than whether or not I'm always sure hes there.

I think the best way I can put it is this.

1) I think that the ideals of living as a good person hold true with or without a god, and i believe in them wholeheartedly, despite my lack of faith in the existance of a god.

2) I think that if there is a god, hes a little more concerned with my actions in life, rather than my ability to wade through the dogma of 300 versions of the christian church(other religions aside), and miraculosly pick out the single one that has the best literal interpretations of a book whose credibility and accuracy is sketchy at best IMO.

3) I think that if there is a god, he doesnt give a shit whether I know hes there or not. If he did, he wouldnt have made things such a huge guessing game.

A just god does not make his final judgement based solely on which fundamentalists you decided to agree with in life.

If their is a god, it is my firm belief that in that case ascribing to any religion would be a sin, because they are in conflict, and I as a mortal have no way to know which is true. To suddenly join up with nearest fundamentalist group in my neighborhood that comes to my door first, would be an affront to god, and the free will he has given me.

If god wanted me to choose one and only one religion, there would be absolutely no debate in the world, because any GOD, should damned well be able to get his point across in a clear way that everyone can agree on, if thats what he Really wants to do.

This has not happened. If this has not happened, I can only assume that the religion you practice(athiest and agnostic included) is not considered important by god.

If it was so important to god that everyone on the planet choose him or oblivion, and be perfectly clear on that decision with no debate or lack of certainty, he would acomplish this, because he is GOD. thats what being god is all about isnt it?

This is one of the main reasons I believe that there is either no god, or at the very least that my belief in his existance is less important in his eyes than my actions as a human being.

Jul 3rd, 2003, 07:30 AM

As Morpheus said...
"Free your mind."

Wouldn't that be a complete mind-job if the Matrix was real and God was nothing but a highly intelligent computer mainframe?

just thought I'd throw that in there...

If you want to keep this discussion serious, please don't. :/

It's funny when you think about it, belief is not much more than to choose to stop asking certain questions. That isn't good or bad, but some people just want to rid their thoughts of all questions and therefore choose the answers - sometimes, the literal Bible. Because they've stopped asking questions, they fail to question the origins of the Bible, and therefore fail to grasp that it's man-made. When you strip the concept of God down to its basics, there's so little left that it can easily exist in perfect harmony with science. In that respect, "God" is merely the answer to a question that no one can answer with certainty - where did it all begin? And that's really no more ridiculous an answer than to say the universe is an infinite circular motion of implosion and explosion.

And if you do go by the literal Bible, or even just the parts of it that describe God, you find that he's not so infinite and infallible as everyone thinks. His patience has limits. He can be angry. He can be sad. He can be happy. He can choose one person over another. He can justify the killing of entire peoples because they don't believe in him. I'm not saying that God's a bastard. I'm saying that man made God in his image.

VinceZeb

Jul 3rd, 2003, 08:32 AM

kahljorn, the person that led the good life but refused to believe in God after someone asked him about it and talked to him about the Bible would be roasting in hell.

Belief in God takes more intelligent, tact, and willpower than not beliving in God. Being an atheist is too easy. It helps us feel good so we can go about our days doing what we want, without conquences, like homosexuality, promiscuity, robbery, etc.

Mockery

Jul 3rd, 2003, 09:15 AM

Belief in God takes more intelligent, tact, and willpower than not beliving in God. Being an atheist is too easy. It helps us feel good so we can go about our days doing what we want, without conquences, like homosexuality, promiscuity, robbery, etc.

You're such a tool... and what's even more amazing, is that you can go back and read your own posts and you still don't realize it.

pjalne

Jul 3rd, 2003, 09:28 AM

Belief in God takes more intelligent, tact, and willpower than not beliving in God.

Yes, and you of course are shown to have very intelligent and tact.

Won't say anything on your willpower, though.

VinceZeb

Jul 3rd, 2003, 10:04 AM

Yeah, mockery, I'm this big tool that believes in God and is a Catholic because I had this chip installed in my brain by the Holy See that made me a mindless Catholic mouthpiece.

I can see why you don't post too much in this area of your board.

Mockery

Jul 3rd, 2003, 10:14 AM

You're not a tool for believing in God. You're a tool for spewing forth a neverending river of ignorance.

As long as you're being a "Catholic mouthpiece", by all means, go find a priest and get on your knees. At least then you'll be doing something useful with your mouth for a change.

Zero Signal

Jul 3rd, 2003, 10:26 AM

Catholicism irks me to no end. >:

They (OK, not all, but Catholicism in general) are such paganistic, ritualistic idol worshippers that have corrupted the teachings of the Bible for their millions of followers. In fact, many of the things that they do are in direct violation of the Bible. How quaint.

kellychaos

Jul 3rd, 2003, 10:27 AM

AChimp

Jul 3rd, 2003, 10:36 AM

It helps us feel good so we can go about our days doing what we want, without conquences, like homosexuality, promiscuity, robbery, etc.
Hmm... you must be an atheist then, Vinth, since you get "underwater handjob action" and can "feel the difference" between regular and fake breasts.

kellychaos

Jul 3rd, 2003, 10:37 AM

I would find it kind of sad and ironic if God was so lonely he damned anybody who didn't believe in him. What the fuck does that matter. You're a fucking idiot if you actually think that.

When people are DIVINELY JUDGED for things they believe in and not their actual values, it's not very Divine. I know you're asking why. Why would a divine God be "Selfish" and "Arrogant"(A perfect Loving God, no less, contradictive to the first half of the bible) to only allow people who "Like and love" him into his holy land. ?

Logic dictates that if God is perfect, then we, as his creations, must also be perfect. How could it be otherwise? Questioning man's perfection is tatamount to questioning the perfection of God. A terse observation reveals to me that man certainly NOT perfect. What does that imply?

Devil's Advocate. The horned one is necessary. Without a diometric opposite (evil), what is there to define what good (God) is? The neverending quest to throw him into the "lake of fire" puzzles me. What would a life without evil be like?

Baalzamon

Jul 3rd, 2003, 11:02 AM

Belief in God takes more intelligent, tact, and willpower than not beliving in God. Being an atheist is too easy. It helps us feel good so we can go about our days doing what we want, without conquences, like homosexuality, promiscuity, robbery, etc.

Accepting the fact that there is no god takes more intelligence, tact, and willpower than beliving in God. Being a believer is too easy. It helps us feel good so we can go about our days doing what we want, without conquences, like homosexuality, promiscuity, robbery, etc. because god will always forgive us if we are his buddy and ask him to :/

An athiest lives a good life for the sake of good itself, not for the fear of punishment if we do otherwise.

Vibecrewangel

Jul 3rd, 2003, 11:07 AM

I actually think it is harder and more frightening to be an atheist. Faith gives you something to hold on to. Real or imagined you have something to give you strength. An atheist on that same level doesn't have that. It is part of human nature to want that something bigger. Somenthing more powerful than us. Atheists live without that. IMHO that takes more courage.

pjalne

Jul 3rd, 2003, 11:12 AM

I don't think courage, tact or intelligence has anything to do with faith or atheism. I don't know where Vince pulled that from (but a part of his anatomy would be a good guess), I see no reason why these factors should be attributed to any group. There are stupid Christians and stupid Christan groups out there, but that has nothing to do with their religion. There are morons out there, and morons tend to form groups. There are just as many stupid atheists out there, and they also get together to moronize.

kellychaos

Jul 3rd, 2003, 11:17 AM

Accepting the fact that there is no god takes more intelligence, tact, and willpower than beliving in God. Being a believer is too easy. It helps us feel good so we can go about our days doing what we want, without conquences, like homosexuality, promiscuity, robbery, etc. because god will always forgive us if we are his buddy and ask him to :/

An athiest lives a good life for the sake of good itself, not for the fear of punishment if we do otherwise.

Have you ever read The Hairy Ape by Eugene O'Neill? The interplay between two of the lead characters "Paddy" and "Yank" addresses that issue in a pretty unique way.

Jeanette X

Jul 3rd, 2003, 11:56 AM

mburbank

Jul 3rd, 2003, 12:09 PM

I think it takes a lot of intelligent and tact to USE THE WRONG DAMN WORDS ALL THE TIME!

And I think it's sweet that your concept of God thinks believing in Him is more important than leading a good life, in fact SO important that he'd put people in a alke of fire for enternity. Cause, see, that seems more like something an ignorant, vendictive half man like you would do. You know, as opposed to a supreme being.

"JEW! JEEEEEEEW! I CAN'T HERE YOU I HAVE MY FINGERS IN MY EARS AND I AM SAYING JEEEEEW LOUD SO I CAN'T HERE YOU JEWING!"
-Vinth Icantbelieveitsnotbutter

ziggytrix

Jul 3rd, 2003, 12:35 PM

Vince would sure be suprised to know that whole "lake of fire" thing is just a gimmick to keep the tourists out.

Sethomas

Jul 3rd, 2003, 12:36 PM

I'm a bit alienated here, because I'm a staunch Catholic. Vince is a hell of a long way away from being a Catholic mouthpiece because his piece-of-shit attitudes put him in direct contradiction of Catholic philosophy and liberalism. Vince is not a Catholic, he is a complete tool with the good fortune of having been raised Catholic.

They (OK, not all, but Catholicism in general) are such paganistic, ritualistic idol worshippers that have corrupted the teachings of the Bible for their millions of followers.

Bullshit. If you want to argue this point, I'll meet you in a new thread. Otherwise, suffice it to say that this is protestant-born slander based in simpleton misconceptions.

In fact, many of the things that they do are in direct violation of the Bible. How quaint.

I find it quaint that other denominations claim we misuse the Bible, when it's painfully obvious that the New Testament was written and compiled by the Roman Catholic Church itself. Funny how fundamentalists conveniently ignore that fact.

ziggytrix

Jul 3rd, 2003, 12:50 PM

Grr. I want to respond in this thread Seth, but it IS a whole other kettle of fish.

http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=4559

I plan to get really blasphemous too.

WorthlessLiar

Jul 3rd, 2003, 05:10 PM

Zero, just had to comment on some things you said including the response to my post a few pages back. Meant to do it sooner.

In fact, many of the things that they do are in direct violation of the Bible. How quaint.

Who said the sum teachings of the Bible are good? No one can really agree on the real message. Are we supposed to listen to Jesus when he says to love others as he loved the world, or when he condemns non-believers? There is no conisistent ideology that can be fitted to the Bible. That's why only hypocritical pragmatists like Vinth can follow it literally.

Earlier you remarked that violence on behalf of religion is man's fault. I think you do have a point here, man is ultimately responsible for his actions. However, you must admit that the circumstances in the instance I provided are somewhat different than the usual "why do bad things happen" argument. While most wars are the result of man's own failings the crusades and similar events, although perpetuated by man, would not have been possible without JC's words.

kahljorn

Jul 3rd, 2003, 08:51 PM

When does he condemn the non-believers? Book, Chapter, verse?

WorthlessLiar

Jul 3rd, 2003, 08:56 PM

John 14:6

chrissi

Jul 3rd, 2003, 09:49 PM

Belief in God takes more intelligent, tact, and willpower than not beliving in God. Being an atheist is too easy. It helps us feel good so we can go about our days doing what we want, without conquences, like homosexuality, promiscuity, robbery, etc.

I can't figure out whether your statement is ironic, or whether you're now an atheist, in which case it wouldn't be ironic. I mean, since all us atheists engage in homosexual acts, promiscuity and robbery. Yeah, everyone knows homosexuality is totally immoral.

kahljorn

Jul 3rd, 2003, 09:57 PM

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

That's not condemning, condemning=bad things.
I read that whole chapter while I was at it, in olde english no less. I never realized how much they all Lithped back in the olde days. And they say the World has gone gay..

CaptainBubba

Jul 3rd, 2003, 09:57 PM

I made this comic (http://www.stripcreator.com/view.php?author=Alexandra&ID=153929)a little more than a week ago.

Everything we come up with that involves the metaphysical world might as well be random. It holds absolutley no meaning in the context of a world with infinite possible scenarios which none of us have ANY IDEA AT ALL about.

Thats basically what my comic sums up. If you feel the same way I do it might even be humorous. ;)

pjalne

Jul 4th, 2003, 06:10 AM

VINCE

I want to ask you a couple of questions here and I'll be as clear as possible.

You recently defined a good Christian. Not only is there nothing in the Bible or, as far as I know, in the Catholic dogma that backs up your definition of a Christian, this definition also sounds more like a breed of atomic supermen than anything else. I would like to know how you can criticize everyone else and sentence them to hell for not literally following the Bible while you yourself have redefined the Bible until it no longer resembles anything from the belief system you claim to be a part of.

Furthermore, I want to ask you why you were compelled to define a good Christian as everything you are not. I will, as I have said before, give you that you have willpower, but so does Saddam. Willpower is not a genetic trait exclusive to Christians. You also say that Christians are intelligent and tactful. These, again, are not traits exclusive to Christians, and they also are attributes that do not in any way apply to yourself. I could go on forever and still not convince you you are a moron, but even you have to see that you have no tact. You are in fact the very embodyment of tactlessness. You blurt out a constant firework of ignorant insults and unfounded and highly inaccuratre accusations.

To make this easy for you, I have condensed the paragraphs above to simple questions:

1: Why are you in a position to redefine the meaning of the word 'Christian'?

2: Why would you define a good Christian as the opposite of yourself?

I think these are reasonable questions, and I ask you to answer them as well as you can. I have tried to make everything crystal clear, but if you feel I'm being vague anywhere please do not hesitate to ask me to explain further. To make this even easier for you, I will also list the two possible directions you can take when answering:

A: Crushing my points with though-out and well-founded arguments.

B: Admitting you were wrong.

To make this EVEN EASIER STILL, I will now list other directions you can take. I will accept any as the following as forms of alternative B:

B.1: Calling me names.

B.2: Telling me to go fuck myself.

B.3: Telling me to come fuck you.

B.4: Writing a sentence that is not a sentence at all, hoping everyone will give you the benefit of doubt.

B.5: Giving answers that completely fail to apply to the original questions.

B.6: Telling me you've got better things to do than hanging around with losers and then go ahead and post vomit in 40 other threads.

B.7: Refraining from answering at all.

What do you say?

EDIT: I would like to add that if you should admit the stupidity in your outburst, there will be no victory dance. The only thing that will come from me in this hypothetical scenario is a teensy weensy bit of respect. I'm sure you wouldn't give a fuck about the respect of anyone on this board, but that's all I have to offer.

Protoclown

Jul 4th, 2003, 10:31 AM

Ooooh, now that's just good.

Yaweh

Jul 5th, 2003, 03:03 AM

To my dear child Vincent Zebediah

Since I am an abstract concept, I am appearing to you in a form you can comprehend: a submarine letter. Or rather, a submarine post. I would normally send My trusty Metatron, but this being the general staff holiday he's unavailable, and after all the criticism directed towards the film Contact, I no longer appear in the form of one of your loved ones. Boy, did I get to hear it from Raguel after the premiere of that one. He's a good Vengeance, but sometimes he just doesn't get when a joke is worn out.

Anyhoo, it has been brought to My attention that this I-Mockery board has just been swept clean with your hiney. I would like to remind you that a good Christian will always be humble and admit his mistakes. It's in the Bible, you know. Lying will not help you in this case, neither does it seem to have helped you in the past: I browsed through the old threads to do some background research, and let Me just say pew-eeeee, the smell of hogwash blows all the way to Mount Ararat and back. I would like to refer to one of My own commandments. I'd tell you which page in the Bible it's from, but My copy is in Hebrew as well as abstract and I don't think the page number is the same in the King James version. Anyway, it goes like this: 'Thou shalt not lie.' I would also like to point out that telling people that you were given a so-called hand job by a prostitute does not give you cred points neither in heaven nor on this board. I didn't bother to read through all the board guidelines (that thing is freaking long, pardon My French), but I'm pretty sure.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that when Junior said 'Love thy neighbor' (or did I say that? It's been a couple of thousand years), he did not mean you should try to 'love' your actual neighbor Janice. This is just a way of saying that everyone is equal and that you should treat everyone with love and respect, including those now-dead Iraqi children you said you didn't care about as long as the WMDs were found. You know, those you lied about caring about when you tried to convince Proto the attack on Iraq was a good thing. And by the way, I checked with My God Vision, and the 'WMD's were just some cosmic dirt on the satellite lens. I tried to tell W about this, but he just said 'Dirt schmirt, those look a-ok to me. Say, could you give me one of those things you stand on and they drive forward? The Greecian president has one.' He should be more careful what he asks for ;)

What I'm getting at is this: now is your chance to shape up. Admit you're a terrible Christian and get a fresh start. And when I say 'terrible Christian', I don't mean like those altar boy raping priests. Those are terrible PEOPLE. With 'terrible Christian', I mean that you suck at being one. So seize this opportunity with both hands, my child. And what's the deal with Christians having special magical willpower? Sheesh, give - me - a - break.

Your loving Father in Heaven,
God/Yaweh
Po.box 777
Heaven

PS. Please stop telling people they're going to hell. That's my job. I don't tell you how to be an inflated windbag, you don't tell me how to be the final judge.

PPS. Please tell Rog to stop praying for the Mermen to become a real-life race. I'm no Lucas, THIS is the definitive version of Creation. Plus, Mattel would sue My sorry Ass :(

PPPS. How many posts do you need to get those titles under your name?

PPPPS. OMG your'e avatur sux lol (Sorry, Noah said I should try to fit in. Am I 'teh secks' yet?)