Bye-Bye Mr. Davis

[Vibecrewangel]

Looks like the California recall is going through.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm not too big a fan of Gray David, but damn, I wish I had a few million dollars to recall a guy from the job I wanted.....

[Abcdxxxx]

it's mind boggling how he got re-ellected. it's mind boggling how half the people in office out there are winning elections. oh wait, i know. send the absentee ballots and voter pamphlets AFTER the election! wheeee. funny how legal loopholes are easier then proving corruption and voter fraud.

oh, and i do vote democrat in california.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The absentee ballots aside, the guy still got over 3 million Californians (sp?) to vote for him.

It took 900,000 to take him off. Less than 5% of the population. Less than 5% of the population will back anything.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/6392630.htm

Posted on Sat, Jul. 26, 2003

California's recall to introduce new brand of campaigning

BY DION NISSENBAUM
Knight Ridder Newspapers

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - (KRT) - The Republican-led bid to oust Democratic Gov. Gray Davis has set the stage for an unprecedented recall campaign that is certain to be one of the shortest, strangest trips in California political history.

Over the next 72 days, the Golden State will pioneer a new brand of hyperactive campaign far removed from the normal yearlong vetting process for choosing leaders.

First, potential candidates, whose numbers rise daily, have two weeks to decide whether or not they think they can run a $100 billion economy. The governor's would-be successors will then have 10 weeks to raise money, hire advisors, develop a game plan, produce campaign commercials, dig up dirt on their competitors, and - most importantly - figure out what they would do if they took the governor's office.

"It's going to be even worse than a beauty contest, it'll be a bad reality TV show: Who is going to be voted off the island - only we have to live with the results for three years," said Democratic consultant Bill Carrick.

The prospect of compressing what is usually a yearlong campaign for governor has left veteran political consultants scrambling to develop innovative ways to reach voters and allow their candidate to stand out in a confusing, fast-paced race.

"It's beyond challenging," said Republican Kevin Spillane, who helped run former Los Angeles mayor Richard Riordan's unsuccessful campaign for governor last year. "There are no words to describe how hard it will be."

Look at the state of affairs for George Gorton, the political strategist for Arnold Schwarzenegger who may be about to kick off the most closely-watched campaign in the world.

Gorton, a veteran consultant who has helped everyone from former California Gov. Pete Wilson to former Russian President Boris Yeltsin to victory, is all but twiddling his thumbs at home while he - and millions of people around the globe - wait to see if The Terminator decides to jump in. Gorton has a slate of veteran operatives ready to launch the campaign but, for now, Team Arnold is treading water, and Gorton isn't used to it.

Adding to the stress is that if and when Arnold does decide to run, the team will have to deal with an avalanche of reporters demanding to know where Arnold stands on everything from gay marriage to workers' compensation reform.

"Everything is quick," said Gorton. "Especially if you're a political consultant used to having polls and a staff of 60 to 80 people on your team 60 to 80 days before an election and - instead - you're sitting in your house by yourself."

While Schwarzenegger's consultants would like to jump in as late as possible to contain a media frenzy, that will also make it more difficult for Schwarzenegger to develop comprehensive policy positions and a solid fiscal plan.

But GOP consultants say the election will boil down to one issue: Has Davis failed as California's CEO and, if so, who will do a better job.

"Are you going to see a lot of detailed policy position on agriculture in San Joaquin County?" Spillane said. "I doubt it. What people are looking for is leadership and Davis hasn't provided it."

What the race looks like will depend a lot on who decides in the next two weeks to run for governor - and the circus has already begun.

Democrats and Republicans are trying to divine what the other side is going to do so each party can outflank the other. Davis is trying to boost his chances of survival by keeping high-profile Democrats from running. If he fails, Republicans want to make sure they don't miss their golden opportunity with a crowded GOP field that splits the vote a dozen ways and turns off voters.

Even if the parties maintain discipline, the ballot is likely to be befuddling. Anyone who collects 65 signatures and turns in $3,500 dollars can put his or her name on the ballot - a low bar that has everyone from a young Democratic Mountain View, Calif., software engineer to enigmatic Hollywood blond icon Angelyne contemplating a run.

"Californians deserve an alternative," said 26-year-old software engineer Georgy Russell, who already has a Web site and a light-hearted campaign slogan: "Brains, beauty, leadership."

The prospect of a long ballot filled with fringe candidates could go a long way towards scaring off Californians. Davis pollster Paul Maslin said voters in focus groups have been turned off when presented with a mock ballot filled with scores of candidates to replace Davis.

Fringe candidates aside, the field may still include a long list of well-connected contenders. Republicans are practically falling over each other to pick up filing papers and pay the $3,500 as the first steps on the road to candidacy.

Rep. Darrell Issa, the conservative San Diego-area Republican who spent $1.7 million to put the recall on the ballot, says he is running no matter what GOP leaders say. Los Angeles businessman Bill Simon, who came within five percentage points of beating Davis last November, is angling for another shot. Former Rep. Michael Huffington paid the $3,500 on Friday. And, if Schwarzenegger decides not to run, many expect Riordan to take a second shot at Davis.

The short campaign will aid those who have a plan and a big bank account. Davis has already shifted back into campaign mode. Simon and Riordan can dust off their 2002 playbooks and Issa can rely on his three-year record in Congress.

Those with a plan then need money to get the message out - and new state campaign finance rules will make it hard to raise the cash. Donors will be able to give no more than $20,000 each to candidates, so the top contenders may have to rely on their own personal fortunes.

In a twist, however, Davis and his allies will be able to raise unlimited amounts of cash because the new political reform laws don't apply to campaign committees set up to fight the recall.

The biggest wild card, though, is the voter. Even the best pollsters can't be certain who is likely to turn out on Oct. 7 for California's first-ever special recall election. Maslin predicts that Democrats will be so outraged by the Republican-led recall that they will turn out in force.

"Right now their choices are basically: right-wing crook, right-wing boob, supposed moderate that nobody knows what he stands for, and a cigar-smoking movie actor killer," he said. In the end, Maslin added, voters will vote no on the recall rather than take the risk.

But Republican pollster Frank Luntz predicted Davis will face what he calls the "mad as hell" voter - a large, disgusted, disgruntled group of Californians so frustrated with the governor's leadership that they are committed to throwing him out no matter who is on the ballot to replace him. Luntz said he has never seen a politician with such low approval ratings - hovering at about 20 perent - and that the campaign that can galvanize voters will win.

"Turnout is going to make the difference in this campaign and the intensity is weighing against Gray Davis," said Luntz. "They are more than just angry - they're absolutely apoplectic."

---

© 2003, San Jose Mercury News (San Jose, Calif.).

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeh well that means his 3 million votes were less then 18% of the population. California has a huuuge population of illegals that can't vote anyway. He got reelected because nobody legit ran against him. A former LA cop isn't going to gain enough momentum no matter how much people hate Davis. Plus anyone who discounts absentee ballots shouldn't be allowed to serve public office ever. Legal votes must count.

Thing is he's not being recalled because of buyers remorse. Even if the Republican opposition has made a recall possible, you'd be shocked how many democrats want the guy out. Davis is bad news.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeh well that means his 3 million votes were less then 18% of the population.

Right, the 18% who cared to get off of their asses and go vote, as opposed to the 5% who signed a clipboard on their way into Target.....

California has a huuuge population of illegals that can't vote anyway. He got reelected because nobody legit ran against him.

So you prefer a special election which allows 19 or more clowns to run for governor??? I hear Michael Savage is thinking about throwing his hat in....


Thing is he's not being recalled because of buyers remorse. Even if the Republican opposition has made a recall possible, you'd be shocked how many democrats want the guy out. Davis is bad news.

I will agree with you on that ABC, make a note of it. I still don't like the process, I think polls are shit compared to the people who really went and voted. It's easy to bash somebody on the phone from the comfort of your recliner chair....

[Abcdxxxx]

You're not in California, nor do you vote there. Preventing voter fraud doesn't require 20 other candidates....but if one or two of those happened to be stronger candidates, it would have discouraged it. People got off their asses, but the votes weren't counted. You can't defend the integrity of the Davis election, while screaming about how unjust the Bush election was.

You're talking about a state where the Secretary of State has little to no jurisdiction over the practices individual Elections office practices. They have run off elections there just to avoid hurt feelings.
Term limits are a major issue out there. It's a zoo.

Oh but really, some people don't like sitting in metropolitan cities IN THE DARK without electricity when they're paying insanely high bills for their utilities by any standards.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're not in California, nor do you vote there.

Jesus, you are such a pretentious twit, it's amazing.

I vote in ONE PLACE in New York State, but this doesn't give me the obnoxious right to claim I'm an expert on BOE procedures in Manhattan or Buffalo.

Preventing voter fraud doesn't require 20 other candidates....but if one or two of those happened to be stronger candidates, it would have discouraged it.

I'm confused, what the hell are you talking about? My point is that there will be a huge ballot for you this October, filled with a long list of incompetent individuals. Unless they run it as an IRV election (which would be fine) rather than doing it "first past the post"style, the next governor of California will have won on a plurality of something VERY tiny.


People got off their asses, but the votes weren't counted. You can't defend the integrity of the Davis election, while screaming about how unjust the Bush election was.

Down tiger. Relax, have a drink, take a laxative, do something. When I read your posts I envision a guy ripping his hair out ready to have a nervous breakdown....

I'm not defending the "integrity" of the Davis election, and I honestly know very little about the voter fraud issues there. I do however know that accusations of voter fraud are very common, and most high level state officials have charges of fraud brought against them by (surprise, surprise) their opponents!!!

With that said, I'm not denying it has happened. What I'm saying is that the process you are entering now will put you out of the frying pan and into the fire. I feel it's naive and short-sighted to recall Davis for just about ANYBODY. In this short time frame, the candidate with the most money to plaster his face and name everywhere will WIN. Is this what you want....?


Oh but really, some people don't like sitting in metropolitan cities IN THE DARK without electricity when they're paying insanely high bills for their utilities by any standards.

Ok, ok, it'll all be ok.....here's my point, calm down. There are assholes all around the country who are driving their state/county/city/town/village/or hamlet into the ground because of bad policy. That's not a procedural issue, that's a policy issue and an electorate issue. Now if voter fraud is your key point for the recall, then I agree with you. But the idea that a guy can get recalled by the guy who WANTS HIS JOB, just by hiring people to petition (something I've done a lot of for various reasons, and it's often a joke) is wrong, IMO.

Again, I'm not saying Davis is a swell guy, a good governor, or anything like that. I'm not even saying the recall is totally unjust. All I'm saying is that the process they are entering into is BAD, and it may even be better were it done as an IRV race.

[Abcdxxxx]

How can you say it's "BAD" when you don't even understand "WHY" it's going on?????

Oh and thanks for the relaxation advice...maybe you just need to stop imagining internet personalities with such dillusional detail.

[sspadowsky]

This reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer smeared the Sanitation Commissioner, got himself elected to the post, and then spent the year's budget in one month, and polluted the town so badly that they moved it down the road a few miles.

I wonder if this will turn out to be as funny.

[O71394658]

I say Arnold for Governor!

[Abcdxxxx]

then spent the year's budget in one month, and polluted the town so badly that they moved it down the road a few miles.

davis must have one of those "homer's my homeboy" shirts cause this sound familiar.

[punkgrrrlie10]

Um speaking of voter fraud, have you even noticed the influx of Nevadians (sp?) to sign petitions to recall? Did you notice the insanely small amount necessary to have a recall? Did you notice who's doing the recall? Is it a republican? :faint

That all aside, CA. economy is bad and Davis is being blamed. Yes alot of democrats don't like him, however:
-when told that there is no viable democrat to replace him support for the recall goes down - CA is a very liberal state for unknowing posters who have added comments to this thread about how others don't vote in CA. yet seem to disregard that CA. is a democratic state by calling out the 'voter fraud' card.
-After they are told that the recall will cost a few million, the support for a recall goes down even further.
-The last election, the dude lost because he was a moron plain and simple in addition to being republican...and yes I AM in Cali., so you can blow me.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

How can you say it's "BAD" when you don't even understand "WHY" it's going on?????

The two have nothing in common. But hey, if you can't contest my argument and would rather whine like a little girl, that's fine.

Davis is a bad governor. I give in, you're right. This has little to do with how you deal with it. Like I said, I'm not saying the recall us unjustified, what I am saying is that the solution is no better than the problem.

But I suppose such naive all or nothing thinking is fairly common for you....

Oh and thanks for the relaxation advice...maybe you just need to stop imagining internet personalities with such dillusional detail.

Your mom.

[punkgrrrlie10]

:lol

[Abcdxxxx]

Um speaking of voter fraud, have you even noticed the influx of Nevadians (sp?) to sign petitions to recall? Did you notice the insanely small amount necessary to have a recall? Did you notice who's doing the recall? Is it a republican? :faint

That all aside, CA. economy is bad and Davis is being blamed. Yes alot of democrats don't like him, however:
-when told that there is no viable democrat to replace him support for the recall goes down - CA is a very liberal state for unknowing posters who have added comments to this thread about how others don't vote in CA. yet seem to disregard that CA. is a democratic state by calling out the 'voter fraud' card.

The last two elected Governors were Republican.

Yes, California is liberal, but Reagan came from California. In the history of California there have been 21 Republican Governors and only 14 Democrats.

Voter Fraud bothers me no matter who the victim is. It's not a "card" to pull, it's a real issue. Same with the electicity crisis. These aren't partisan problems. Sad that you think it still means something to be a Democrat these days.

[Abcdxxxx]

Davis is a bad governor. I give in, you're right. This has little to do with how you deal with it. Like I said, I'm not saying the recall us unjustified, what I am saying is that the solution is no better than the problem..

Apparently you aren't very educated about the problem at hand then. But what else is new?

I think holding our elected officials accountable for their actions in office is a wonderful idea.

[GAsux]

Or maybe a more viable option and smarter move for the Dems would have been to convince Davis to step down. As much as many California voters dislike Republicans, they sure don't seem to like Gray so much either and if you think all this is happening as a result of a clever Republican plot I think you're sorely underestimating the movement.

Obviously both sides are pretty unhappy with Davis's leadership and management, or lack thereof. It's been building for over two years. If the Republicans could have put up a viable candidate maybe Gray wouldn't have won in the first place.

Regardless, Gray stepping down would have allowed the Lt. Gov, who happens to be a Dem also to ride the term out. Then we could have gotten back to the old business of fair and square elections.

But I'm admittedly an idiot.

[mburbank]

Well, alll I can say is thank God this whole recall election is free.

I mean, otherwise, it could only add to Californias budget woes, and that's the real problem here.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Apparently you aren't very educated about the problem at hand then. But what else is new?

:boohoo

I'll repeat myself one more time for your stupid ass. The problem and the solution are two different things. I mean hey, why bother with the whole recall thing!!? Since he's so rotten, why not put him before a firing range, or maybe a public hanging....?


I think holding our elected officials accountable for their actions in office is a wonderful idea.

Right, and you've yet to address the real crux of the argument. Your brain thinks "Davis bad, get him out." Opinion polls show a small majority of the public agreeing with you, and a nearly equal minority DISagreeing with you. The recall was mobilized by FIVE % of the population. Roughly 1 million people were given a laundry list of naughty deeds, got some sweet talking, and then signed a clipboard on the sidewalk. Wonderful how democracy works, eh?

Accountability for you would be saying to hell with REAL measures of accountability, with a truly democratic process, because clearly YOUR feelings on the matter are reflective of every citizen in California, right!?

It used to be that your check on an elected official was your ability to vote him out the next cycle. This is democracy. ABCDxxxx's version of democracy is one where a millionare can campaign for a ballot initiative, and potentially remove said public official from the seat he himself just so happens to covet.

And what is ABCDxxxx's ideal and democratic solution?? A special election with a long list of names, two months to campaign, with the winner being the guy who can out publicize the other. This is democracy in ABC's mind. Just for your sake, I hope you truly get what you deserve in October.


Or maybe a more viable option and smarter move for the Dems would have been to convince Davis to step down.

Having Davis step down could potentially create a dangerous precedent. From Davis' perspective, the opinion polls show that Californians, by a slow margin, support this recall. Generally, if an official starts of another term with bad polls, they see it as a GOOD thing. Why? Because it gives them the rest of that term to atempt correcting those mistakes, and if he can't, he potentially loses the election. This is our process.

The insanity of this recall process is a big reason why states such as New York don't even USE ballot initiatives. In theory, it seems more pure and democratic, and it's particularly attractive when the official is doing a bad job. However, in reality, such things are often driven and heavily funded by interest/lobby groups like PIRG, and other such groups. They force feed citizens with advertising, half-truths, all in order to get a signature or a vote for an initiative.

Hoping Davis will step down is also, if you'll beg my pardon GA, kind of naive. What should motivate him to step down? A 5% loss in opinion polls? Heck, everybody on these boards whines about how off and speculative those things are. Why else should he step down, a proposed recall put forward by 5% of the population? I think I could motivate 5% of the American population to vote for 24 hour Pizza Huts, that doesn't make it necessary or right.


As much as many California voters dislike Republicans, they sure don't seem to like Gray so much either and if you think all this is happening as a result of a clever Republican plot I think you're sorely underestimating the movement.

Please, explain this "movement" to me. Who are they? Paid petitioners, who had a period of several months to gather up the needed signatures? To run for Executive in my county as an independent candidate, you need to acquire a couple thousand signatures over the course of roughly 2 months. Our "movement" consisted of roughly ten people with clipboards and no money.

This "movement" needed roughly 900,000 signatures, and had a paid staff of petitioners who roamed around Cali for a few months. It sounds like a lot of signatures, but with those resources, it can be done easily.


Regardless, Gray stepping down would have allowed the Lt. Gov, who happens to be a Dem also to ride the term out. Then we could have gotten back to the old business of fair and square elections.

And if only I had a nickle for every elected official who SHOULD have done this.....

But I'm admittedly an idiot.

No you're not. :(

[GAsux]

I don't want to get into the merits of the recall process argument because its already going in circles and has probably run it's course.

As for my niavety, I am not saying this makes me credible but I will add that I too live in California, and have for the past 28+ years. Davis lack of support goes far deeper than the "5%" drop in popularity polls you've mentioned. It's been building for several years and I think you'll find that all polls aside, even in relatively heavily democratic areas of the state people aren't too happy with Davis. It's education spending, it's the power fiasco, it's the budget problems, etc. I honestly believe that Davis re-election this past go around has more to do with lack of a viable option than it does with any kind of validation of Davis's leadership. I think you might discover that a lot of folks picked Davis as the lesser of two evils.

As for the "movement" forgive me if I used bad semantics. Perhaps some of the recall effort was in fact driven by stooges. I suppose there is only one way to test your theory. We'll find out when the people go to the polls again. I would imagine that will demonstrate whether or not this effort is merely political posturing or genuine discontent.

In terms of the stepping aside bit, all theorizing aside, I'm saying that the Dems in California faced a cross roads. Maintain their loyalty to the party and their candidate and point out fault in the system at the risk of losing their leadership, or cut their losses and at least maintain some semblance of control in the states affairs.

I'm not saying the voters in the fine state of California are ready to shift to the right and support conservatism (see Sen. Boxer and Fienstien, Repl Waters, etc) but I think you will see more and more bipartisan discontent with the leadership of Gov. Davis himself.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

As for my niavety, I am not saying this makes me credible but I will add that I too live in California, and have for the past 28+ years.

And obviously it does give you more of an expertise on the wrongs of Gray Davis. But as I've probably said 10 times now, that's not my point entirely. We have procedures we use when it comes to appointing are elected officials, and we likewise have procedures as to how we discard them. Throughout our nation's existence, these methods have changed.

My point has been that this recall is bad policy, and it doesn't put California in a better position, it in fact puts them in a potentially worse one.

ack of support goes far deeper than the "5%" drop in popularity polls you've mentioned. It's been building for several years and I think you'll find that all polls aside, even in relatively heavily democratic areas of the state people aren't too happy with Davis. It's education spending, it's the power fiasco, it's the budget problems, etc. I honestly believe that Davis re-election this past go around has more to do with lack of a viable option than it does with any kind of validation of Davis's leadership. I think you might discover that a lot of folks picked Davis as the lesser of two evils.

Okay, but my question to you then is how should it be. Should the people of California accept the democratic process and wait to vote him out, or should a recall that will give them 3(?) years of another potentially rich yet incompetent governor go through...? Is this preferable, and more importantly, is it fair...? Several other states throughout the union are in the economic dumps, other governors have poor opinion polls. Is the recall process, as it's enacted in California, viable?

the "movement" forgive me if I used bad semantics. Perhaps some of the recall effort was in fact driven by stooges. I suppose there is only one way to test your theory. We'll find out when the people go to the polls again. I would imagine that will demonstrate whether or not this effort is merely political posturing or genuine discontent.

I'm not sure it'll matter either way. It looks now as if Arnold is leaning towards not running, which actually takes one of the few potentially known names off the ballot. Maybe Mr. Issa can cough up another million and be your governor. Do you know his stance on various state issues? Would you be happier with him, or someone like him, as your governor???

s of the stepping aside bit, all theorizing aside, I'm saying that the Dems in California faced a cross roads. Maintain their loyalty to the party and their candidate and point out fault in the system at the risk of losing their leadership, or cut their losses and at least maintain some semblance of control in the states affairs.

I think you're probably right, but keep in mind, a lot of these Dems backed this pony less than one year ago. To turn on him now could look like pure opportunism rather than civic responsibility. Furthermore, I think it's not fair to question whether or not this is a Republican fueled power play. It clearly IS just that, whether it's a righteous act or not, it's certainly an attempt to use discontent to grab the governor's seat. This kind of tactic tends to polarize people, not unite them. It's pretty tough to ask state Dems to understand this recall, especialy since it's the opposition party fueling the process. It's kind of like asking Congressional Republicans to support impeachment of W, simply b/c a minority in Congress have proposed it.

I'm not saying the voters in the fine state of California are ready to shift to the right and support conservatism (see Sen. Boxer and Fienstien, Repl Waters, etc) but I think you will see more and more bipartisan discontent with the leadership of Gov. Davis himself.

And I'm sure it's warranted. Al I'm saying is the process sucks. I'd stop complaining honestly if they were going to use an IRV system for the special election. This would make more sense for such a large ballot, IMO.

[Abcdxxxx]

kevin - why don't you spare people the flame war and stop acting like a juvenile. talk about something you know for a change. you're just an op-ed parrot spouting off a bunch of polls.

"Why else should he step down, a proposed recall put forward by 5% of the population?"

davis only won the election by 5% to begin with. he's lost the confidence of his state and the ability to get anything done.

you don't even realize how stupid you sound creating this scenario of people being duped by the big bad clip board carrying republicans. california has the largest deficit of any state ever! a lot of people hold him responsible specifically. to understand why you'd have to understand how davis handled specific issues. you'd have to talk to some of the hardcore dems that turned their back on him. you'd have to follow the govenor on local issues that aren't making national news.

another thing - it's dumb to keep saying only 1 million support a recall because that was all the signatures they needed. plenty more would have signed.

[GAsux]

Maybe I'm missing the point. I see what you're getting at Kev with regards to the recall process setting up the potential for political power plays, but whether California voters opt to rid themselves of Gray Davis now for a shitty alternative or wait three more years for an equally shitty alternative, either way doesn't it ultimately reflect the will of the people?

If people are being duped into this recall election as a result of a simplistic Republican power grab, won't it be reflected in their vote when they vote to keep Davis?

Maybe you're right. Maybe things won't be better after a recall election. Maybe Davis will be replaced by another incompetent shit bag. But maybe not. If Davis stays, the people of the state ALREADY know what they have to look forward to for the next three years. At least a recall provides the HOPE of some kind of improvement.

[mburbank]

Wow. The more I read this debate the happier I am recalls are free. I'm also really glad that a special election with about twenty candidates could never, never lead to a sticky multiple recount decision, and multiply contested results. Oh, well. At least the recounts would be free.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

kevin - why don't you spare people the flame war and stop acting like a juvenile.

Oh, I beg your pardon, you must have me mistaken. There's no "flame war" here, I sincerely don't like you.


talk about something you know for a change. you're just an op-ed parrot spouting off a bunch of polls.

Christ, I hate to act like you and pull out my "credentials," but I am a student of American politics, I have taken part in and contributed to ballot initiative campaigns, and I'm fairly knowledeable on comparative electoral systems, and how they function. So, why don't you fuck off and bite me you pretentious half-wit??? (Was that "flaming" enough for you??)

"Why else should he step down, a proposed recall put forward by 5% of the population?"

davis only won the election by 5% to begin with. he's lost the confidence of his state and the ability to get anything done.

Ok, ok, so here's the meat of the discussion. It's NOT the voter fraud that most outrages you (a noble gripe), but rather, it's the fact that he's a bad governor and you would like him beheaded?? So again, I ask you, since he did win the election as you just pointed out, why do YOU think it's fair or democratic that a disgruntled moral crusader such as yourself could self-finance a recall of a governor, one in which takes FIVE % (again, FIVE PERCENT) to get on the ballot???

And back to my other question: Is the solution more preferable than the problem???

you don't even realize how stupid you sound creating this scenario of people being duped by the big bad clip board carrying republicans.

Another question: Would the recall have ever gotten off the ground without Issa's financing of it? I mean, according to you, this is a truly grassroots, populistic movement we have here. EVERYBODY in Cali would dispose of this guy now if they could, right? WOULD the recall have happened? Better yet, if Republicans like Issa hadn't planted the seed and mobilized the action, would a swell of Californians demanded it anyway??? I think not, so fuck off trying to paint this as conspiracy theory. Again, I have enough experience in these kind of activities to know how they work, so perhaps it's YOU who should calm the "op-ed" rhetoric.

california has the largest deficit of any state ever! a lot of people hold him responsible specifically. to understand why you'd have to understand how davis handled specific issues. you'd have to talk to some of the hardcore dems that turned their back on him. you'd have to follow the govenor on local issues that aren't making national news.

New York State is going through its largest deficit since the Great Depression. Governor Pataki had resounding support from most unions in the state, whom he turned around after the election and firmly stabbed in the back. Many of the folks who endorsed him, such as UNITE and SEIU, are now calling for his head. I bet a lot of them would like to get rid of Pataki now as well. But they endorsed him, and they voted for him. These are the consequences of democracy.

I see the recall option as a BAD one, but as I've already told you, I'm not entirely opposed to it. What I am opposed to is the alternative, which is no better, if not worse.

another thing - it's dumb to keep saying only 1 million support a recall because that was all the signatures they needed. plenty more would have signed.

Polls don't indicate this, and all those who voted for Davis don't indicate this. Voters are fickle, and change with the winds. Things are bad now, and the first guy on a failing baseball team to go is the manager. The California Republicans have used this current discontent as a chance at a power grab, one that might backfire in their faces, but oh well.

I'm glad you can speak for all the voters of California, I forgot, you're an "expert."

Maybe I'm missing the point. I see what you're getting at Kev with regards to the recall process setting up the potential for political power plays, but whether California voters opt to rid themselves of Gray Davis now for a shitty alternative or wait three more years for an equally shitty alternative, either way doesn't it ultimately reflect the will of the people?

Sorry if I have little faith in the people, but it comes from several years of campaigning and signature gathering. 5% of the people doesn't seem very reflective of anything to me. Perhaps ABC is right, perhaps many more would've signed the petitions (it frankly isn't the kind of thing we can do accurate research on, b/c I'm sure the petitioners aren't marking every 'no' they get, and I'm equally certain that there's nobody out there gather signatures for a "no recall" campaign :/).

And if you wait three years, you will get a more narrow stock of choices, probably more capable ones. You'll have more time to study them, find out where they stand on issues, and then make an educated vote. This will not be the case by October 5th, with a huge ballot.

If people are being duped into this recall election as a result of a simplistic Republican power grab, won't it be reflected in their vote when they vote to keep Davis?

Well, that'd mean voting against the recall, since they can't obviously vote for him as a candidate. It's tough to tell who will get energized by this special election. Some think it will mobilize angry Dems to go out and vote down the recall. But if Davis' popularity is as poor as you say it is, it's more likely that anybody who goes to vote will be voting against Davis as opposed to voting for a competent governor.

Maybe you're right. Maybe things won't be better after a recall election. Maybe Davis will be replaced by another incompetent shit bag. But maybe not. If Davis stays, the people of the state ALREADY know what they have to look forward to for the next three years. At least a recall provides the HOPE of some kind of improvement.

Or maybe the threat of a recall forces Davis to stop being a shit bag? Davis is the definition of a spineless, self-interested politician. He has his own image to protect here, and he's going to do whatever he can to preserve it, me thinks.

Either way, I'm not even saying I'm opposed to the recall. What I am saying.....(you fill in the blanks).

Wow. The more I read this debate the happier I am recalls are free. I'm also really glad that a special election with about twenty candidates could never, never lead to a sticky multiple recount decision, and multiply contested results. Oh, well. At least the recounts would be free.

I get your joke Max, but it's even more of a joke than that. As of yesterday, 123 candidates have filed papers to run. The deadline is August 9th.

[mburbank]

What are the rules of this re-election? How much of a clear majority does the winner have to have? If there is no clear majority (and the larger the candidate pool the greater the statistical chance that there will be no clear winner.) What happens procedurally if the election does not yield clear majority?

Apart from my thinking the whole idea of recall simply for being bad at your job is highly undemocratic and is just asking for trouble, what are the safeguards against this recall becoming a hideosu lengthy costly quagmire?

[kellychaos]

Trivia Note: Reagan was a democrat when he was governor of California which, with party platforms evolving all the time, is irrelevant. Looking back, what passed for democrat at the turn of the 19th century you'd swear was instead republican if you based your guess solely on the party platform without seeing the label.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kelly: Excellent point, but count on it falling on deaf ears with the likes of Abcdxxxx....

Max: To my understanding, the winner will be the one who ends with a somple plurality of all the votes. I don't know that any kind of run-off is being proposed should nobody get the majority (a majority is nearly impossible with so many candidates).

This is why I think doing it as an Instant Runoff would be preferable, because voters could rank all of the candidates, and the most likely scenario would be that the guy who everybody tended to rank either 2nd or 3rd would probably win.

[mburbank]

Okay, I feel much, much better about this whole recall deal.

I just read on Reuters that Larry Flynt is 'tossing' his 'hat' into the ring.

[Abcdxxxx]

Trivia Note: Reagan was a democrat when he was governor of California which, with party platforms evolving all the time, is irrelevant. Looking back, what passed for democrat at the turn of the 19th century you'd swear was instead republican if you based your guess solely on the party platform without seeing the label.

Trivia Note: The reverse equation could be said of Dianne Feinstien who started as a Republican.

California isn't always prone to voting in liberal candidates that reflect the states reputation. That was my point.

When did it become a bad thing to have an open system where candidates could come out of nowhere? The people bitching about this prospect are the same people who complain about a two party system that prohibits outsider candidates from getting on the ballots and having much of a shot. Oh now it's gonna clog the system!?

Kevin - your academia brain is so clogged it's barely worth responding to you. suffice to say californians have some diverse reasons for supporting a recall. decades of corruption at the hands of both parties (that far outweighs any comparison to ny state ) has a lot more to do with it then simply supporting the republican party. california has had a 20 year fight to get term limits and accountability for it's officials. that along with voter fraud issues and a dislike for sitting in the dark has pushed a lot of tax paying residents to explore some options. within the system that existed, not one created for their whims. you can sit around jerking off to your text books crying about how recalls and impeachments are a disgrace to the system all you want.... it's nice to see the people of california empowered for a change. even if as you claim, it's only 5% of them.

[VinceZeb]

It's amazing that people are bitching and moaning about this recount. Everyone fumes about recounts and impeachments and how they want to change the system, some people actually put their chips on the table and do it, and then people whine about how tough and complicated it may get.

Well, thats just it: Life is difficult, nothing is for free and hard work will reap rewards, which in this case is a change of government. America's great, huh?

In a 7th-seal kind of way, I'd love to see Michael Savage voted to be the governor of California. But even I'm not stupid enough to believe he would win.

[mburbank]

See, this is why I argued against installing a doggie door on I-mockery.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The people bitching about this prospect are the same people who complain about a two party system that prohibits outsider candidates from getting on the ballots and having much of a shot. Oh now it's gonna clog the system!?

Shut up. Ballot access has little to do with a ballot access that involves having enough dough to get on. Ballot access has little yo do with three months to campaign, which as I have already stated, will give the candidate with the most media exposure (ie, CASH) the ability to have an advantage. Thois has little to do with ballot access, you fucking moron.

Kevin - your academia brain is so clogged it's barely worth responding to you.

Blah, blah, blah....try responding to my points and answering my questions rather than being evasive and acting like an internet tough guy.

suffice to say californians have some diverse reasons for supporting a recall. decades of corruption at the hands of both parties (that far outweighs any comparison to ny state ) has a lot more to do with it then simply supporting the republican party.

Name some while you're at it. And what does a "historical precedent of corruption" have to do with recalling Gray David? Does it exceed the corruption of Tammany Hall? What about the Democratic Machine that ran Albany's capital for most of the 20th Century?? Heck, what about the system we have RIGHT NOW with the "three men in a room" solution to legislative problems? I know you'd like to envision yourself as a special little cloud in the universe of political importance, but it just isn't the case.

Furthermore, I never said it was support for the Republicans that motivated this. Try reading my posts over again.

california has had a 20 year fight to get term limits and accountability for it's officials. that along with voter fraud issues and a dislike for sitting in the dark has pushed a lot of tax paying residents to explore some options. within the system that existed, not one created for their whims.

BOOHOO! BOOHOO! California is so naughty and sad!! :tear

Again, get over yourself. You aren't the only state with problems, and you've yet to justify the recall, and more importantly, the SOLUTION it poses....

you can sit around jerking off to your text books crying about how recalls and impeachments are a disgrace to the system all you want....

HA HA! I GET IT! I'M A COLLEGE STUDENT! FUNNY FUNNY!!

Look, bottom line is I understand this shit more than you do. You can whine and bitch about "empowering" the people of California, but the fact remains that your solution bites.

it's nice to see the people of california empowered for a change. even if as you claim, it's only 5% of them.

Who needs 5%? You clearly speak for them as a whole anyway, they should just go on vacation....

Try responding to some points, rather than wasting my damn time...

Vince--

Good to have ya back, buddy!! :winkwink

[Abcdxxxx]

Kevin - Whimper away. I'll be voting. You can go cry about it.

[mburbank]

EXCELLENT POINT, SIR! MY OPINION HAS SUDDENLY BEEN SWAYED BY THE ELEGANCE OF YOUR RHETORIC!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm delighted to hear that you'll be doing your civic duty ABC, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, and the election in October is a mistake.

[Abcdxxxx]

you're pretty black and white about this gray davis issue.

[VinceZeb]

They are black and white about the issue because a tax-and-spend liberal idiot is the one being put to the chopping block.

They love the Consitution and the rule of law until it works against someone they like.

[mburbank]

Is it work to be as stupid as you are, or do you just sort of relax into it?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

you're pretty black and white about this gray davis issue.

I'm not at all, in fact it's you who could care less about the consequences of recalling the man. I've even said I'd agree with the recall were it done IRV style. It's in fact you who show know flexibility, nor any common sense, on this whole matter.

They are black and white about the issue because a tax-and-spend liberal idiot is the one being put to the chopping block.

This is untrue. I have no sympathy for Gray Davis, and if it were the other way around I'd be just as bothered by the process.

They love the Consitution and the rule of law until it works against someone they like.

This is like fucking American politics 101. You certainly haven't gotten any brighter during your hiatus.....

[imported_Hollycaust]

Listen, once I pull some strings, Larry Flynt will be in office. Good Day!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

This is the most recently updated list of candidates at www.politics1.com:

John Birke (D) - Attorney & '96 State Sen. Nominee
Audie Bock (D) - Ex-State Assemblywoman, Teacher & '02 Congressional Candidate
Daniel Brookman (D) - Attorney
Art Brown (D) - Filmmaker
William Carlisle (D) - Attorney
Jeremy Chapman (D) - Cigarette Store Chain VP & Cigarette Tax Repeal Activist
Al Checchi (D) - Ex-United Airlines President & '98 Candidate
Gary Condit (D) - Ex-Congressman & Ex-State Assemblyman
Andrew Davis (D)
Noam Dromi (D) - Branded Entertainment Producer & Film Writer
Hatosha Drumgoole (D)
Fredrick "Rick" Engen (D)
Jesus Escamilla (D) - Senior Utilities Engineer Specialist
Dan Feinstein (D)
Brian Flemming (D) - Writer & Director
Dean Florez (D) - State Sen., Ex-State Assemblyman & Businessman
Larry Flynt (D) - Pornography Magazine Publisher & Casino Owner
Jimmy James Fong (D)
Lorraine "Abner Zurd" Fontanes (D) - Filmmaker
Jose "Pepe" Gomez (D)
Isaac Gorbaty (D)
Joe Guzzardi (D) - Audlt Education Instructor, Newspaper Columnist & Anti-Immigration Activist
Thomas Hall (D)
Marcus Hough (D) - Teacher
Steven Ireland (D)
Tamila Jensen (D) - Attorney
David Johnson (D) - Non-Profit Group Organizer
Alan Kaye (D)
D.E. Kessinger (D)
Kelly Kimball (D)
Matt Lemcke (D)
Gary Leonard (D)
Frank "Mac" Macaluso (D) - Physician & Businessman
Steven Malone (D)
Paul Mariano (D) - Assistant Public Defender & USAF Veteran
John Mortensen (D) - Self-Employed Businessman
David Noel (D)
William John Olson (D)
Georgy Russell (D) - Computer Programmer
Mark Shirilau (D) - Electric Power Systems Engineer & Businessman
William Vaughn (D) - Moraga Town Councilman
Lee Zion (D) - Journalist & Navy Veteran
Danney Ball (R) - Country Music Singer & Frequent Candidate
John Beard (R) - Printing Company Owner
Matt Brady (R)
Fred Brinkley (R)
Milton Brock (R)
Doug "Logan Darrow" Clements (R) - TV Show Producer & Ex-Magazine Publisher
Bob Dole (R)
Ted Dougherty (R)
Elton Gallegly (R) - Congressman & Ex-Simi Valley Mayor
Leigh Greenberg (R)
Hanna "John" Hajjar (R) - Artist
Jim Hoffman (R)
Mike Huber (R)
Mike Huffington (R) - Ex-Congressman, Oil Executive & '94 US Senate Nominee
Darrell Issa (R) - Congressman & Businessman
S. Issa (R)
Michael Jackson (R)
John Keusseyan (R)
Asimo Sondra Lawlor (R)
Robert Lippert (R)
Brian Lister (R)
Tom McClintock (R) - State Sen., Ex-Assembly Republican Whip & '94 State Controller Nominee
Keith Richman (R) - State Assemblyman
Richard Riordan (R) - Ex-Los Angeles Mayor, Retired Businessman & '02 Candidate
Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) - Movie Actor
Bill Simon Jr. (R) - Investment Banker, Charity Director, Attorney & '02 Nominee
Roger Willoughby (R) - Retiree & Frequent Candidate
Anthony Wayne Ford (AIP)
Ron Gulke (AIP) - Electrical Contractor, Farmer, '74 Congressional Candidate & '02 Nominee
Diane Templin (AIP) - Attorney, Anti-Gay Activist & Frequent Candidate
Peter Camejo (Green) - Investment Company Founder, '76 SWP Presidential Nominee & '02 Nominee
Jack Hickey (Libertarian) - Research Scientist, Sequoia Health Care District Commissioner & Navy Veteran
Dale Ogden (Libertarian) - Actuarial Consultant & Frequent Candidate
Ned Roscoe (Libertarian) - Cigarette Store Chain President & Cigarette Tax Repeal Activist
Lee Chauser (PFP) - Teacher
Jan Tucker (PFP) - Private Investigator & Frequent Candidate
C.T. Weber (PFP) - State Employee, Union Activist, Ex-State Party Chair & '98 State Controller Nominee
Angelyne (Independent) - Entertainer & Billboard Self-Promoter
Austin Alexander (Independent)
Mohammad Arif (Independent) - Website Publisher
Tom Benigno (Independent) - Retired Farmer, Ex-Grocery Store Owner & Frequent Candidate
Jerry Brown (Independent) - Oakland Mayor, Ex-Governor, Ex-State Democratic Chairman & Attorney
John Burton (Independent) - Attorney
Mary Carey (Independent) - Porn Movie Actress
Christy Cassel (Independent)
Dennis Conn (Independent) - Retiree, Community Activist & Frequent Candidate
Ron Friedman (Independent) - Radiologist
Gallagher (Independent) - Comic Performer
Leo Gallagher (Independent)
Jason Gastrich (Independent) - Baptist Minister & Doctoral Student
Sara Ann Hanlon (Independent)
Ted Hayes Jr. (Independent) - Homeless Activist & Frequent Candidate
Michael Hirt (Independent)
Arianna Huffington (Independent) - Columnist, Author, TV Pundit & Ex-Republican
Travis Kalanick (Independent) - Internet Technology Executive
Tovy Kamine (Independent)
Trek Thunder Kelly (Independent)
Philip "Jon" Kok (Independent)
Chuck Kovacic (Independent)
James Kurka (Independent)
Tim Lanzilotta (Independent)
Shu Yih Liu (Independent)
Ben Lofstedt (Independent)
Ed Manderfield (Independent) - Computer Consultant
Jack Meeks (Independent) - Retired Teacher & Nevada County School Board Member
Jerry Morissette (Independent) - Interstate Rest Stop Caretaker & Navy Veteran
Bill Murray (Independent)
William Pratt (Independent) - Recent High School Graduate
Michael Savage (Independent) - Radio Talk Show Host & Author
Brian Tracy (Independent) - Motivational Speaker & Consultant
Michael Wozniak (Independent) - Private Investigator & Retired Police Officer
Steve Young (Independent)

[mburbank]

Anyone know how they're doing the actual ballots? How many pages? Alphabetical? By Party?

In paper alone this is going to end up costing more than estimated.

If this is a simple Plurality, does anyone want to start a 'futures market' in number of lawsuits? Number of recounts? How about a tri fecta and pick the highest court any of the lawsuits makes it to?

[Zebra 3]

:) - Don't forget boys and girls that it's tonight on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno that Ah-nuld will announce if he'll be a candidate for Governor of California. It's seems that the news was already leaked a few days ago, and he along with his family have decided not to enter politics, and can you really blame him.

[Abcdxxxx]

Kevin "I'm not at all, in fact it's you who could care less about the consequences of recalling the man. I've even said I'd agree with the recall were it done IRV style. It's in fact you who show know flexibility, nor any common sense, on this whole matter. "

Jeez kid, you said this is "wrong" with a clear cut judgement of the situation. Black and white. When did I say it's right? I understand and agree with it, and I can argue for those who support it..... but that doesn't mean I signed the fucking thing. I didn't. I can see the downsides of this thing, but I am excited about the possible upsides.... like a return of Governor Moonbeam, or a Larry Flynt world where everything is legal again like in the olden west days. So you can stamp your feet like a little baby and talk about how wrong it is. I just find it interesting that it's okay to talk domestic politics in such black and white terms, but not okay to discuss international issues with the same distinct view point. You wouldn't know flexible if you were reading a plastikman comic,

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Jeez kid, you said this is "wrong" with a clear cut judgement of the situation. Black and white.

Jeez shithead, when have you actually disputed my arguments against it? When you list the positives to a bad alternative, you can call me "black and white." Until then, pretentious remarks like calling me kid will simply reinforce the the obvious point that you're in fact clueless.

When did I say it's right? I understand and agree with it, and I can argue for those who support it..... but that doesn't mean I signed the fucking thing. I didn't. I can see the downsides of this thing, but I am excited about the possible upsides.... like a return of Governor Moonbeam, or a Larry Flynt world where everything is legal again like in the olden west days.

HA HA HA!!! ABC ISN'T A SOULLESS TWIT! HE HAS HUMOR! HE ISN'T AN ANDROID!!

Fact is, you would make Davis walk the plank if that was the alternative presented. You're excited. You love it. You're a happy little boy.

The "upsides" are what, by the way?? The Terminator or Mike Savage as governor....?

So you can stamp your feet like a little baby and talk about how wrong it is. I just find it interesting that it's okay to talk domestic politics in such black and white terms, but not okay to discuss international issues with the same distinct view point. You wouldn't know flexible if you were reading a plastikman comic,

THANKS DAD! Hey, when you prove how being critical of a recall that's the political joke of the year shows a lack of flexibility, get back to me. I've supported changing the election to make it more fair, whereas you've supported, well, nothing other than the recall. Maybe a mob with torches would be your next prefered option.

Hey, watch your feet, your sweeping generalizations are gonna take us all out, sport. Try again.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I take it all back, this recall sounds great. Gary Coleman has entered the race.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/06/candidate.coleman/

[mburbank]

I'm also changing my mind. This recall including actors succsesful, has been, never been and pornographic has reached the level of art.

And unlike some of you, I have ALWAYS favored publicly funded art.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

And must I remind everyone that RONALD REAGAN was ALSO an actor...!? It's true! And look how well that turned out!!

I've got a good feeling about all of this.....

[Miss Modular]

Gary Coleman's agenda. (http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2003-08-06/recall2.html/1/index.html)

Point One: Gary hates politicians!

If there's one class of people Gary Coleman despises, it's career politicians who play games with our tax dollars, while the little guy gets diddly-squat. If elected, he promises to give those Sacramento fat cats what for. "I'd kick in the ass every member of the House that had more than two secretaries," he snarls. "Because that's a waste of public funds. I believe that public service means just that: service. And I'd kick the ass of everyone who had their little pet projects and issues that had nothing to do with keeping California solvent and attracting corporations here." When this newspaper told him that during the recent budget deadlock, members of the state legislature were seen smoking cigars and drinking what appeared to be expensive Scotch on the capitol building balcony, Gary wigged out and vowed to "find them and put my size four-and-a-halfs so deep into their colon!"


Sounds like a plan!

[mburbank]

GAR COLEMAN! HE'LL FIGHT FOR THE LITTLE GUY!

[Abcdxxxx]

Kevin - Prentention...who cares. Condescending...very. If you want to pretend you're having a dialogue by telling people what they think then you should stand in front of a mirror and save the bandwidth.

Gasp. America the land of the free - where anyone with $3,500 and some signatures can run for office ... what a horrible outrage.... the system will surely fail now....we used to have such good candidates before this recall talk came along... what happened to Bradley, and =Bono, and Eastwood, and Reagan? Those were some good candidates!

[mburbank]

Well, I just want to say, I'm pretty certain at this point that the degree of chaos generated by this recall is BOUND to help California's budget crisis. I mean, we've tried experience, and look where it got us. I think the only rational solution is compelet, total inexperience, and I can only hope the least experiened candidate gets the job.

Give the people a choice, baby! Like they had, what, a year ago? And if this new gov screws up, recall them too! And the next guy! I say we start a recall campaign the moment the next guys elected! Term limmits of a month! How much can you screw up in a month? $3,500 and 65 signatures? Fuck that! Compile all California's phone books and make that the ballot! Or save money and everybody just write in whoever! And why should it be just Californians voting? Their economy is HUGE, it effect the hole country, I want a damn piece of this. I'm either going to vote for me or that Frog what used to be on the sugar smacks box. I mean, can a cartoon frog do a worse job than Davis?

[sspadowsky]

Max should be on The Daily Show.

[mburbank]

What?!? And take MONEY for what I do? How terribly crass.

Here's a fun new wrinkle for recall fans. Got this from a FAQ in Slate

"Who decides what order the candidates' names will appear in?

On all California ballots, candidates are grouped by party, then listed in randomized alphabetical order. The randomization process (which involves film cartridges in a lottery-style contraption) might determine, for example, that all candidates whose last names start with the letter "H" will be listed first. But even within the H's, names will be further randomized according to the second letter, and then the third, and so on. Which means hypothetical candidate Hzyzitz might be listed before her hypothetical rivals Hzan and Hart, and recall voters searching through countless names won't have an alphabetical order to guide them. "

So.... Voters will need to find their candidate of choice in potentially 500 or more randomly listed names!

If you are a Californian and you mean to vote, bring comfortable shoes, a lawnchair and a good book.

[Vibecrewangel]

I think we need a Royal Rumble style battle to decide this. It would be like the WWF in the good old days......6 men trying to toss Arnold out of the ring. Gary dropping to all fours as someone is pushed backwards and trips over him in a good old fashioned school yard bump. Feinstein outside the ring in a tight leather mini yelling profanities at the assembled mob.

This could work.



See.....this is what happens when your sister comes to visit and finds pictures of you in a tight leather mini yelling profanities at a the assembeled mob in a wrestling ring. She actually took some to show the kids she works with what her older sister does for fun. I think I should be embarassed. I'm not. But I think I should be.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kevin - Prentention...who cares. Condescending...very. If you want to pretend you're having a dialogue by telling people what they think then you should stand in front of a mirror and save the bandwidth.

Poor sniffles, and what exactly are you doing?? It's you who has been arguing all along that 1 million signatures proves how much people in California want to get rid of Davis.

I'm not telling people to like Davis, what I am telling people is that they elected him a year ago, and there should be a certain degree of respect for the democratic electoral process. Now I know, you'll say that Davis has ruined California ALL ON HIS OWN, and cheated his way into office. This strikes me more as unsubstantiated speculation and over-zealous exaggeration on your part, but we both know how prone you are to this behavior.

Now please, forgive my own condescension, but mine is at least warranted. As I have already stated, I've participated in ballot initiative campaigns, and they tend NOT to be as "purely democratic" as your teary eyed rants would presume.

Gasp. America the land of the free - where anyone with $3,500 and some signatures can run for office ... what a horrible outrage.... the system will surely fail now....we used to have such good candidates before this recall talk came along... what happened to Bradley, and =Bono, and Eastwood, and Reagan? Those were some good candidates!

Hehe, you're really a clever kid, because when you can't handle an argument, you like to rant and fuddle the points made. Here, let me help you out.

Critics of the recall are not merely criticizing it b/c it allows silly candidates to get on the ballot. It DOES however allow up to ONE-HUNDRED candidates on the ballot. Now, since this race won't be a run-off, that means the winner on a ballot with so many candidates will have won by a fairly small plurality. So, I realize you love this recall, I realize you sit up at night debating whether to vote for the Terminator, Gary Coleman, Mike Savage, Larry Flynt, or maybe even that sumo wrestler, and that's fine. I'm happy for you. But what I thus want you to admit is that you don't really care about democracy, and how few people like Gray Davis is in fact irrelevant to you. You don't want to vote for a new governor, you want to vote against the real one.

And as for the comments you made on the quality of candidates, that's not entirely the point either (try to follow along junior). Much like other recall critics, I have no problem with folks like Arnold Schwarzenegger running for governor. In a regular election cycle, voters would have the opportunity to become intimately aware of where all the candidates stand on issues. THIS election will be a sprint. Arnold already has enough free press, he doesn't even NEED to spend millions on plastering his face all over California. But he will anyway. He will purposely come across as ignorant to the political system, because that implies some kind of "purity," separating him from the inately "corrupt" California government. He will stick to purely populistic reform talk, almost completely devoid of real substance.

Arnold aside, lets also not forget the other circus like things going on. People who aren't even serious about campaigning, Gary Coleman and Mike Savage, but who are very serious about contributing to an already bloated ballot. One $0.99 store is searching for a 99 year old Californian to run for governor. Great publicity for their store, I guess.

Right now, it looks as if after the recall has gone through, and millions of tax payer dollars have been spent, you may have Arnold as your governor, or perhaps Cruz Bustamante. So when it's all said and done, you may have an inexperienced, rich actor as your governor, or the Lt. Gov. of Satan himself. Is it all worth it?

[imported_Hollycaust]

LMAOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/News/9908/19/showbuzz/gary.coleman.jpg

"...And when I am elected, those signs at Disneyland that say "You must be THIS tall to ride" [gestures over head] will be consigned to the dustbin of history along with "Whites Only" drinking fountains and other discredited philosophies. [pounds fist on podium] Their day is over."

[Abcdxxxx]

Look California is and has been a circus for a long time. I'm not big on anarchy, but a little bit of a shake up isn't a bad thing. This isn't the first recall in history, and there is a playbook. Elected officials deserve to have the ground beneath them shaken and stirred a bit. You may not understand or approve the methods and reasons for getting Davis out, but I assure you they're not a bunch of cry baby spoiled sports with a disregard for the democratic process. You don't have to believe me, but if you read or watch California media, then you'll get an ear full to prove my point. Perhaps it's a state so desperate that it's not at all scared of this process. It's the most corrupt state since Rhode Island.

Kevin - a minute ago you were arguing that the margin of support for and against Davis was a slight 5%... read the current polls and you'll realize how out of touch you are. who gives a fuck that you have a better understanding of the process then most, or what your work experience is.... because apparently all that's done is mislead you from a clear outlook on this situation. go back to asking if anal sex can get you pregnant in the loveline forum.

[kellychaos]

Like Conan O'Brien said, "The California gubernatorial race is so bizzarre, it doesn't need any jokes to be said about it. It provides it's own." (Paraphrased).

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Look California is and has been a circus for a long time. I'm not big on anarchy, but a little bit of a shake up isn't a bad thing. This isn't the first recall in history, and there is a playbook.

It's the first recall in a while, and California is regarded as having the worst recall policy out of all the other states. The states that don't even bother with one do so for good reasons....

Elected officials deserve to have the ground beneath them shaken and stirred a bit.

This used to be the threat of losing during the next election cycle. Like I've said previously, the recall process undermines the democratic process. If every elected official had to constantly fear pissing off a wealthy opponent or suffer a recall, our officials would be even MORE dominated by fickle public opinion polls. They'd be scared to use the discretion they were entrusted with.


You may not understand or approve the methods and reasons for getting Davis out, but I assure you they're not a bunch of cry baby spoiled sports with a disregard for the democratic process. You don't have to believe me, but if you read or watch California media, then you'll get an ear full to prove my point. Perhaps it's a state so desperate that it's not at all scared of this process. It's the most corrupt state since Rhode Island.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The alternatives are no better than the problem. You can speculate on which state is worse, but California is not unique in her corruption throughout history.

Kevin - a minute ago you were arguing that the margin of support for and against Davis was a slight 5%... read the current polls and you'll realize how out of touch you are.

"A minute ago" was on July 31st, eleven days after your last post. At the time, polls were showing a 5% discrepancy for and against the recall. Hey, I also referred to Issa as a candidate in that very same post. I guess that also makes me "out of touch," since I cited something that was a fact in its present tense. :rolleyes Try again, junior.....

who gives a fuck that you have a better understanding of the process then most, or what your work experience is.... because apparently all that's done is mislead you from a clear outlook on this situation.

You've yet to offer the "clarity" of your perspective. "Hey! California sucks balls anyway! We should be weird, heck, we're SUPPOSED to be weird!!" Wonderful use of reason...

go back to asking if anal sex can get you pregnant in the loveline forum.

I've never raised this question, but if this is a come on, well my answer is no.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Clip from http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0815DavisRecall15-ON.html :

"Schwarzenegger's growing campaign staff is going Hollywood with another possible adviser, actor Rob Lowe, the Los Angeles Times reported Friday. The longtime Democratic activist and former "West Wing" star is a friend of Schwarzenegger and his wife, Maria Shriver.

Citing unnamed sources close to the campaign, the Times reported the couple had asked Lowe to take an as-yet-undefined senior campaign position.

Bonnie Reiss, a campaign strategist, told the newspaper, "I've met with Rob and I will be working with him." A Lowe spokesman was unavailable for comment."

I guess the market for good consultants is a little dry these days. They're probably all already running for governor. :(

[Abcdxxxx]

Kevin : "A minute ago" was on July 31st, eleven days after your last post. At the time, polls were showing a 5% discrepancy for and against the recall. Hey, I also referred to Issa as a candidate in that very same post. I guess that also makes me "out of touch," since I cited something that was a fact in its present tense. Try again, junior..... "


You were being told you were out of touch even 'at the time" and so were the polls. You scoffed that my opinions didn't speak for all of California.... but the polls show my views represent a bit more then 5%. Eat dirt.

I'll explain something to you about the Davis recall. The damage he has done to the State and on some level, even the country, should be an impeachable offense. Here's why. When you look at the situation with the recent East Coast blackout, it has it's seeds in the Gray Davis office. Pg & E failed to block several initiatives to allow independent utility companies the right to service customers, giving people the right to chose who they pay their electric bill to. Somehow, voters have won the right and still Pacific gas and Electric has blocked it. They also made threats, that if they didn't get money from the State to build new power plants, grids, etc. that there would be power shortages. Sure enough, there were outages, rolling blackouts to "ease the system", and Pg &E got what it wanted in the end. It was extortian, and Davis was an accomplice. On top of it, California customers were upcharged for services they were already paying for, and PG & E was basically sending bills for random amounts.

So now you have the same thing happening with utility companies, on a larger national level...and thanks to Davis, there is a precedence for it. Everything you're hearing as part of this "investigation" on what went wrong, are familiar to Californians. This week PG & E announced that it wasn't an overload that caused their blackouts, it was in fact, operator error.

Obviously there's more to this, but my point here is that this runs FAR deeper then partisan politics, and a lot of Californians do want Davis out .... and that's always been my point.