Coca-Cola In India

[Jeanette X]

http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=7728
ndia: Coke Adds Life?

Impoverished Farmers are Fighting to Stop Drinks Giant "Destroying Livelihoods"

By Paul Vallely, Jon Clarke and Liz Stuart in Kerala
Independent/UK
July 25, 2003

Three years ago, the little patch of land in the green, picturesque rolling hills of Palakkad in the Indian state of Kerala yielded 50 sacks of rice and 1,500 coconuts a year. It provided work for dozens of labourers. Then Coca-Cola arrived and built a 40-acre bottling plant next door.

In his last harvest, Shahul Hameed, the farmer who owns the modest smallholding, could coax only five sacks of rice from the land, and a meagre 200 coconuts. His irrigation wells have run dry. Meanwhile, the huge factory extracts up to 1.5 million litres of water a day from the deep wells it has drilled into the aquifer to produce Coke, Fanta, Sprite and the drink the locals call, without irony, Thumbs-Up.

But the cruellest twist is that the plant bottles a brand of mineral water while local people - who could never afford it - have to walk up to six miles twice a day to fetch water. The turbid, brackish water which remains at the bottom of their wells is now too high in dissolved salts to be healthy to drink, cook with or even wash in. Some claim it made them ill.

As the summer and the water crisis intensifies, the hardship of the local people is worsening. So is the row between them and the company whose name is for many a synonym for the global power of transnational capitalism. For the past 459 days, there has been a daily picket of the factory. There have been street demonstrations and rallies, and spontaneous blackening of Coca-Cola hoardings. More than 300 people have been arrested.

Then earlier this year the Perumatty panchayat (local council) revoked the factory's licence to operate. It did so despite losing almost half of its annual income - some 700,000 rupees (about ?9,000) - from the decision. Coca-Cola's lawyers appealed to the next level of government, which suspended the revocation and allowed the factory to continue operating. The matter comes to a head at an appeal before the state government next week.

It is an iconic dispute, a David and Goliath battle between multinational power and some of the world's poorest people. Many of those affected are classed by the Indian government as "primitive tribals". Most of the rest are dalits - "untouchables". Few in power took much notice when they began to complain, six months after the factory opened, of changes in the quantity and quality of well water. So the anger of the local people grew.

Shahul Hameed looked out over one of his bone-dry paddy fields this week and visibly shook with anger. "My irrigation pump, which I installed with a bank loan in 1980, used to run for 12 hours throughout the night; now it runs dry after 30 minutes," he said, above the noise of clinking glass from the factory next door. "Coke managed to acquire all the lowest lying land in the area and after digging a series of deep wells they took all the water. It is downright theft."

Every day 85 lorryloads leave the premises, each containing 550 cases of 24 bottles. To produce them the company siphons off enough water to meet the minimum requirements of about 20,000 people. They have not only lost their water but, with the dried-out farms closing, also their jobs. Those worst affected are up to 10,000 landless labourers.

Coca-Cola denies responsibility for all this. In a statement from its headquarters in Atlanta, it said: "We would like to emphasise that, to the best of our knowledge, these allegations made against the plant in Kerala are untrue.

"In fact, we believe that the allegations are politically motivated. The plant concerned has not drained the aquifers and uses only six bore wells. In fact, the local villages receive tankers of free water supplies each day from the plant to supplement their existing water sources." And, it said, the company was establishing an elaborate system for rainwater harvesting.

The real culprit, the company says, is a reduction in rainfall in the area - from 1,213 mm in 2000, to 1,147mm in 2001 and just 670mm in 2002. It quotes India's National Geophysical Research Institute in Hyderabad as saying: "There is no field evidence of overexploitation of the groundwater reserves in the plant area."

All of this is disputed. A local human rights and development organisation, VAK, which is funded by Christian Aid, claims state meteorological reports show rainfall rose between 2000 and 2001. Another campaign group, CorpWatch India, challenges Coke's claims about rainwater harvesting, saying "how much you save through your rainwater harvesting is not the issue; how much additional load you add to the aquifer is".

The quality of the water is an issue too. CorpWatch sent samples for analysis to the United States. The resulting report concluded that high levels of dissolved salts were produced by the fast rate of depletion of the aquifer - and that washing in it would cause "severe hardship"..

Then there is pollution. Chemical effluents produced by bottle-washing contaminate the groundwater, protesters say. Early attempts to dry the foul-smelling slurry and market it as fertiliser failed when farmers started to develop sores on their skin and noticed that their coconut palms were dying. The plant tried to give it away but no one wanted it. Protesters have been gathering it up and dumping it in front of the plant.

The company denies there is a problem. It says: "Technologies are also equivalent to most Coca-Cola bottling plants in the United States and Europe. Further, our effluents comply with standards and norms set by the Kerala State Pollution Control Board."

The local authorities have backed the multinational, arguing that it creates jobs. A wide spectrum of politicians shared a platform at a rally outside the factory last year to threaten "dire consequences" if the protests did not stop.

Demonstrators took no notice. Local council tax records, they said, showed that there are only 134 permanent staff at the plant. Indeed, some of the protesters had once worked there but quit. "'I used to get terrible headaches working there," Saraswathi Kaliappan, 38, who worked as a bottle washer for two years, said. Conditions were so poor she claimed she wouldn't go back if the pay was doubled.

But then, in April, the local council changed its mind. Prompted by new data from the Kerala State Health Department that people should not drink from wells neighbouring the plant, it acted. The panchayat decided not to renew the industrial licence issued to Coca-Cola on the ground of "protecting public interest".

"We were persuaded the company would bring money and jobs to the area," Arychami Krishnan, the council's president, said. "But the reality is few local people have been employed and the water situation and pollution is a calamity."

The decision did not stand for long. Coca-Cola workers set up a counter-protest outside the council headquarters and 1,000 demonstrators marched on the town hall. The US ambassador to India wrote to the Indian Prime Minister, stating: "I would like to bring to your attention, and seek your help in resolving, a potentially serious investment problem of some significance to both our countries. The case involves Coca-Cola, one of the largest single foreign investors in India." The Kerala Local Self Government Department ruled the factory could stay open pending next week's appeal hearing.

Aid agency campaigners have protested. "This is a shocking situation where it appears that the rights of a big corporation are being put above those of poor communities," an Action Aid spokesman said. "This is a classic case of corporate irresponsibility," said Christian Aid, which is calling for "binding international regulations".

But few expect that the final verdict for the waterless people of Kerala will be anything other than "Let them drink Coke".
How Search for Headache Remedy Spawned Global Industry

By Oliver Duff

* Coca-Cola started life in Atlanta in 1886, the result of a search for a headache remedy.

* It is now the biggest selling and most popular soft drink in history.

* The first international bottling plants opened in 1906 in Canada, Cuba and Panama.

* Among its brands are Sprite, Dr Pepper, Bacardi Mixers, Nestl?, Nescaf?, Schweppes and Fanta.

* More than 13,000 Coca-Cola beverages are consumed every second of the day, reaching six billion consumers.

* 70 per cent of its income comes from outside the US.

* In 2000 Coca-Cola paid out $192.5m (?120m) to African-American employees who accused the company of racial discrimination.

* Coke remains the biggest-selling soft drink brand in America, but sales there slumped by 2 per cent in 2002.

[ranxer]

gee, and we don't understand why they(many 3rd world peoples) hate us! >:
Americas prosperity comes at the price of many others livleyhoods..
here's a good tune about Coke.
"Drink of the Death Squads"
http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/3126/3126031.html

fucking corporate bastards using the right of 'free trade' to screw everybody while they make a buck. how the hell can anyone call this progress or prosperity?
Coke is responsible for many murders of labor union folks in 3rd world countries, they have yet to do anything but say things like 'this shouldnt happen' without firing anyone or even reprimands. >:

capitalism without morality just sucks so freaking bad.

[ItalianStereotype]

capitalism without morality? wha-a-a-a? we agr....agree...on something? oh good Lord, I can see the Horsemen...

[Zero Signal]

IBM is moving 3 million US jobs to India by 2015. Why? "Because our competitors are doing it." >:

[ranxer]

cheers italian

oh yea, not sure of the numbers but i just heard that the cost of the war on iraq so far is nearly equal to the amount corporate america has escaped in taxes by moving thier offices/plants out of the country! 8(

[AChimp]

The factories and shit in India are actually helping the Indian economy by providing jobs. Rather than bitch about how he can't farm coconuts anymore, why doesn't that guy get a job at the Coke plant? He lives right next door.

[Zero Signal]

The factories and shit in India are actually helping the Indian economy by providing jobs.
And destroying the economy and jobs here when they move them. Or did you just forget about that part? :rolleyes

[Jeanette X]

The factories and shit in India are actually helping the Indian economy by providing jobs. Rather than bitch about how he can't farm coconuts anymore, why doesn't that guy get a job at the Coke plant? He lives right next door.
Did you even read the article? Let me spell it out for you in a way even you can understand:
COKE SUCKING UP WATER. NO WATER FOR VILLAGE.

[AChimp]

So? They should drink Coke.

[Zero Signal]

Let them eat cake, too. :lol

[AChimp]

I'm sure Coke's diversified into that, too. :)

[Jeanette X]

So? They should drink Coke.
Are you really this much of a moron or just pretending?

[AChimp]

What? The Coke is probably healthier than that crappy water they have to walk miles to fetch. Besides, there's probably a Coke machine on the street corner or something, and it's most likely the best stocked in all of India.

[The_Rorschach]

I don't see the problem personally. Maybe I'm just blind

[ScruU2wice]

What? The Coke is probably healthier than that crappy water they have to walk miles to fetch. Besides, there's probably a Coke machine on the street corner or something, and it's most likely the best stocked in all of India.

jus because they're a 3rd world country doesnt mean they dont have clean water, i mean they could be from spring water from teh himalayas which is remotely close to india...

[Bennett]

http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=E58F7218-06D3-45E1-A12B-DF1AB2BCA58C

[Jeanette X]

What? The Coke is probably healthier than that crappy water they have to walk miles to fetch. Besides, there's probably a Coke machine on the street corner or something, and it's most likely the best stocked in all of India.
Yep...Coke is just fucking great for bathing, cooking, and irrigating your crops. Will a single bottling plant employ the ten thousand landless laborers who lost their farms due to lack of water? Especially when there are only 134 permenant staff there, some of whom got sick due to poor conditions.
And I'm sure they will love having to to pay for Coke when water is/was basically free.

You didn't even read it, did you? >:

[The One and Only...]

Wait... how are they taking up all the water?

[mburbank]

Can't run a plant at all without using a lot of water for drinking, cooling, cleaning. Can't run a WATER BOTTLING plant without using a whole lot more.



And I'm pretty sure Chimp is being Ironic.

[kellychaos]

Yeah, he does that but good. :)

Favorite (not mine) saying by a sergeant who used to be my supervisor on the enemy ... whomever they were at the time :/

"We'll have them drinking cokes and smoking Marlboros inside a month!"

I don't know why I brought that up or if it's even relevant. :(

[The One and Only...]

Can't run a plant at all without using a lot of water for drinking, cooling, cleaning. Can't run a WATER BOTTLING plant without using a whole lot more.



And I'm pretty sure Chimp is being Ironic.


Right... but I was under the impression that Coca Cola dug their own wells to collect water.

[Jeanette X]

There is only so much water in the ground, One and Only.

[Zero Signal]

There is only so much water in the ground, One and Only.
And it is all under the bridge at this point.

[GAsux]

Would it be slanderous of me to alternatively point out that while it's true that the Coke factory may have put the squeeze on the local thriving coconut and rice industry, it has no doubt provided a substantial number of decent paying jobs for those same locals?

I think Senor Chimp was only half kidding. Mr. Coconut farmer would likely make in a week at the factory what he would have earned from his annual haul of ripe, moist coconuts. Take the factory away so the rice growers can be prospersous again. And then you can post another article about how an evil American corporation sent hundreds of local workers back into poverty by shutting down its plant. That would be swell.

[Jeanette X]

Would it be slanderous of me to alternatively point out that while it's true that the Coke factory may have put the squeeze on the local thriving coconut and rice industry, it has no doubt provided a substantial number of decent paying jobs for those same locals?

I think Senor Chimp was only half kidding. Mr. Coconut farmer would likely make in a week at the factory what he would have earned from his annual haul of ripe, moist coconuts. Take the factory away so the rice growers can be prospersous again. And then you can post another article about how an evil American corporation sent hundreds of local workers back into poverty by shutting down its plant. That would be swell.

Demonstrators took no notice. Local council tax records, they said, showed that there are only 134 permanent staff at the plant. Indeed, some of the protesters had once worked there but quit. "'I used to get terrible headaches working there," Saraswathi Kaliappan, 38, who worked as a bottle washer for two years, said. Conditions were so poor she claimed she wouldn't go back if the pay was doubled.
Next time, try READING THE FUCKING ARTICLE before you post your inane comments! >:

[Bennett]

DAMMITT!!!

http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=092379C0-C5CD-4E98-B9C2-2DADD5188841

[GAsux]

Hey thanks, I'll try that.

There's no water in India, blah blah blah, they're all going to die, blah blah blah, god damn corporate America is the root of all evil blah blah blah......

You're right Jeanette, first I didn't read the article and second, my comments MUST be inane because I didn't agree with you.

Anyone who reads the article and DOESN'T feel the same way about it as you MUST be an idiot.

[AChimp]

Or they don't drink enough Coke. >:

[Jeanette X]

Hey thanks, I'll try that.

There's no water in India, blah blah blah, they're all going to die, blah blah blah, god damn corporate America is the root of all evil blah blah blah......

You're right Jeanette, first I didn't read the article and second, my comments MUST be inane because I didn't agree with you.

Anyone who reads the article and DOESN'T feel the same way about it as you MUST be an idiot.

You are not an idiot because you disagree, you are an idiot because you failed to realize that the factory only provides 134 permanent jobs, and that is not nearly enough to help the TEN THOUSAND laborers affected by the loss of the water. And if Coke left, I would be pleased, not upset that "the evil Coke corperation left and took jobs with it".
The Coke corperation has NOT provided a "substantial number of decent paying jobs", and the fact that you stated that plainly shows that you didn't read the article.

[AChimp]

Ten thousand coconut farmers, you mean. :rolleyes

[Zero Signal]

Pepsi should open a plant in Pakistan and then the cola wars can reall get going. :lol

[GAsux]

Super. Thanks Jeanette for pointing out once again that I apparently didn't read the article based upon the fact that I disagree with it's "findings".

I'm quite sure that in addition to the 134 "permanent" jobs, a factory of that size employs a great many more people. Since the article doesn't say specifically how many TOTAL employees the factory houses, I guess I lose that argument huh? For the sake of argument, let's say its 500, although I'm still willing to bet it's more than that. Regardless, you're talking about 500 people who I will bet a case of Vanilla Coke make more in their salary in a month than they would in a year raising Indian Coconuts, which can't be all that great by the way.

Regardless, the economic tit for tat is not the heart of the argument is it? Because no matter how you slice it the Coca Cola Corporation is funneling a substantial amount of money into the Indian economy. We can argue about which specific Indains gain and lose, but it's pointless. Take that investment away and they ALL lose.

Anyway, isn't the real issue the water rights issue?

[Jeanette X]

If you were skeptical of the accuracy of the article you should have made that clear in the first place.
I'm off to go dredge up more information. Hopefully you won't decide to dismiss it all as innaccurate. >:

[Jeanette X]

I suppose you will be telling me that malaria and toxic waste are actually helping India next...
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0624-04.htm

Published on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 by OneWorld.net
Water-Guzzling Coke Plant Triggers Protests in Indian Town
by Kalyani

NEW DELHI - In view of an impending water crisis, environmental activists will hold a protest rally in north India next month to enlist support for ousting beverage multinationals like Coca Cola, accused of polluting and exploiting scarce groundwater.

A protest rally will be held in the north Indian city of Varanasi next month to highlight the role of Multi-National Corporations (MNCs) such as Coca-Cola in the looming water crisis, the organizers say. The protest is led by two local organizations, the Lok Samity and the Samajwadi Janparishad, members of the National Alliance of Peoples' Movements, an umbrella body of environmental and other social groups.

The activists are protesting against a Coca-Cola plant located in Mehdiganj, some 20 kilometers from Varanasi. They claim that the plant draws electricity from two diesel power generators, one of which consumes 360 liters of diesel per hour. Two tube-wells draw thousands of liters of underground water.

"The consumption of underground water by the company has led to a lowering of the underground water level from 15 to 40 feet," says Aflatoon, state general secretary of the Samajwadi Janparishad.

The activists, who claim the factory disgorges toxic industrial waste into neighboring fields and mango orchards, continue to urge the government to revoke the plant's industrial license.

"Many expelled workers of the plant who are with the movement, say the pollutant, Caustic Soda -- used for washing bottles, is causing the environmental damage," says Aflatoon.

According to Aflatoon, people living in villages around the plant often break out in rashes on drinking the water. Worse, the water has damaged wheat and paddy fields and the chick-pea crop in the region, he alleges.

There are other negative fallouts. As Aflatoon points out, "Polluted water stagnating in the fields has become a breeding ground for mosquitoes, causing Malaria." He goes so far as to allege that, "A village dog died after drinking the water."

According to Aflatoon, the destruction caused by the pollution from the factory has forced local farmers to organize themselves and demand ' Cola Bhagao, Gaon Bachao '(Oust Coca Cola, Save the Village).

Petitions have been sent to local officials as well as the President of India demanding the ouster of the MNC, which was earlier asked to leave the country by the Indian federal government in 1977.

Coca Cola withdrew from India after the Indian Government demanded it reveal the formula of the popular drink. It made a comeback in 1993 after New Delhi initiated a process of economic reforms. The American MNC is today one of the biggest foreign investors in India.

Last month too, environment activists held a protest march in Varanasi, following which the local administration ordered an inquiry into allegations of water pollution caused by the bottling plant.

The Varanasi protest comes in the wake of a similar movement in Kerala in south India last year. Last summer, villagers in the Palakaad district of Kerala demanded the closure of the Hindustan Coca-Cola Beverages Private Limited, a local unit of the MNC.

The villagers held that the MNC had dug up borewells for its water requirements, causing wells and ponds in the area to dry up. After a two-month-long protest, the local administration revoked the license of the Coca-Cola factory in the state.

Currently, the lowering of ground-level tables is causing severe water crises in different parts of the country. India's capital, Delhi, tops the list of water scarce cities, followed by Mumbai in the west and Bangalore and Hyderabad in south India.

The situation, experts warn, is likely to worsen in the coming years. According to Indian government figures, areas with access to water supply in Delhi will plummet from 81.5 percent to 26 per cent in the next 20 years.

© Copyright 2003 OneWorld
http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/jul/28coke.htm

Coke accused of supplying toxic fertiliser to farmers

George Iype in Kochi | July 28, 2003 15:35 IST


The Coca-Cola plant in Kerala's Palakkad district has run into serious trouble with a BBC investigative report saying that the sludge produced by the Coke factory contains dangerous toxic chemicals that are polluting the water supplies, the land and the food chain.

The report reveals that the sludge produced from the Coke plant at Plachimada village is supplied to local farmers who use it as fertiliser contains 'dangerous levels of the known carcinogen cadmium.'

BBC, which got the sludge samples from the Plachimada plant investigated at the University of Exeter in Britain, said that the fertiliser supplied by Coca-Cola to the farmers, will have devastating consequences on the local villagers' health.

BBC Radio 4's Face The Facts presenter John Waite who did the study visited the plant in the wake of an ongoing campaign by the locals who allege that the villages near the Coke factory are drying up because of the over-exploitation of water resources.

Early this year, the Pudussery panchayat in Palakkad district where the Plachimada plant is situated, refused to renew the Coca-Cola licence, saying the plant was depleting ground water in the region. But the licence was renewed after a court intervention.

However, farmers -- led by local politicians -- have been carrying out a campaign to shut down the Coke factory. Now the BBC study has spurred the local activists to step up 'the oust-Coke campaign.'

"The BBC report is shocking and an eye-opener. It is not only that the Coke factory has been depleting ground water levels in Palakkad, but the plant has also been supplying dangerous, toxic materials as good fertilisers to farmers," Communist Party of India Marxist leader V S Achuthanandan told rediff.com.

Achuthanandan, who is also the leader of opposition in Kerala assembly, said that Coke has no more justification to produce its soft drinks at the Kerala plant. "We will help the local people to step up their agitation against the Coke factory because it concerns the health and very existence of the people," he said.

According to the BBC study, the toxins found in the fertiliser samples include cadmium and lead. Cadmium is a carcinogen and can accumulate in the kidneys and may lead to kidney failure. Lead is particularly dangerous to children and the results of exposure can be fatal. Even at low levels it can cause mental retardation and severe anemia.

The BBC study has also quoted Britain's leading poisons expert, Professor John Henry, consultant at St Mary's Hospital in London, who asked the authorities to immediately ban the sludge from the Coke factory.

"The results have devastating consequences for those living near the areas where this waste has been dumped and for the thousands who depend on crops produced in these fields," Professor Henry said.

"What most worries me about the levels found is how this might be affecting pregnant women in the area. You would expect to see an increase in miscarriages, stillbirths and premature deliveries," the British expert warned.

But despite the BBC study and warnings from the experts, Coke officials said the sludge from the Plachimada factory is 'harmless' and 'good for crops.'

"We have done our own scientific studies and found that the fertilisers being supplied to the local farmers are harmless," a Coke factory official at Plachimada told rediff.com.

He said that the fertiliser has immensely benefited the local farmers who find it very difficult to buy very expensive branded fertiliser products.

"We have also not come across any reports of health problems and environmental hazards due to the sludge," the official added.

[GAsux]

Well, since neither of those address the economic issue I guess we've dropped that. Fair enough. I'm honestly glad that you posted the second article in addition to the first because at least that presents some semblance of investigative journalism.

I'm not sure the points you highlighed in the first article do much to further your case:

The activists, who claim the factory disgorges toxic industrial waste into neighboring fields and mango orchards, continue to urge the government to revoke the plant's industrial license.

I claimed to have slept with the hottest girl in school when I was 16. How about DOCUMENTING the instances of toxic waste being disgorged in the fields rather than making "claims".



According to Aflatoon, people living in villages around the plant often break out in rashes on drinking the water. Worse, the water has damaged wheat and paddy fields and the chick-pea crop in the region, he alleges.

According to my mom, eating right before you go to bed gives you nightmares. Some people get rashes when its hot out. Some people get rashes by laying in grass. I'm not trying to say there is no merit, but this is a pretty shitty argument if you ask me.



There are other negative fallouts. As Aflatoon points out, "Polluted water stagnating in the fields has become a breeding ground for mosquitoes, causing Malaria." He goes so far as to allege that, "A village dog died after drinking the water."


Now that is deep. A healthy, vibrant Indian village dog DIED after drinking the water! There can be only one explanation! Coke poison! My dog died a few years ago. I thought it was because she was old but maybe it was from too much lead in her Alpo can.

I'm not rying to be a dick here. I'm just saying that's hardly "scientific" evidence to support your claim.

Like I said, fortunately at least the BBC report seems to have apparently legitimately addressed the health concerns, which probably likely exist. But what to do? Perhaps you should vent your anger equally at the Indian government for allowing such a gross pollutant industry like soda manufacturing to operate in such a sensitive area. It's probably like that the manufacturing does produce some waste. If they are still within the legal limits of India's pollution laws, who's the real asshole?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think Senor Chimp was only half kidding. Mr. Coconut farmer would likely make in a week at the factory what he would have earned from his annual haul of ripe, moist coconuts......And then you can post another article about how an evil American corporation sent hundreds of local workers back into poverty by shutting down its plant. That would be swell.

Give coke time, an it'll happen, they'll leave. There's more than a question of simply getting a wage (although whether or not it's a "decent" one is debatable). There's also the question of self-sustainability. What your espousing is the "company town" solution, and how well did that work out for America? How has it helped places such as Troy, NY, Schenectady, NY, Flint, MI, and Pittsburgh, PA???

Multi-national corporations aren't in the business of being the benevolent providers of jobs. They are in the business of maximizing profits and minimizing expenses. So Coke will eventually leave India in persuit of lower wages, and when they do, India will be left with no water, no domestic infrastructure, and an ignorant class offactory workers. Is this preferable?

[AChimp]

In 30-40 years, who can say? It'll take that long for places like India to become too "expensive" for companies to be located in. Hell, they've got social problems up the ass that they still need to deal with, specifically their caste system that continues to endure despite efforts to halt it.

There are already people in India left with "no water, no domestic infrastructure, and an ignorant class offactory workers." And you know who put them there? Other Indians, not corporations.

[kellychaos]

What fresh hell is this?! My lifelong dream was to become a Coca Cola bottler (inspired by "Laverne & Shirley" reruns) and now my dreams have been dashed by them Indian bastards ... but, on the bright side, Coconut Coca Cola! :love

[Jeanette X]

Well Gasux, who do we, as consumers, have more influence over? Coca-Cola, or the Indian government?

There are already people in India left with "no water, no domestic infrastructure, and an ignorant class offactory workers." And you know who put them there? Other Indians, not corporations.
So? Do we need the situation to be made even worse by corperations?

Furthermore, the fact that Coca-Cola is giving the Indians toxic sludge to use as "fertilizer" is morally reprehensible, no matter how you look at it.

[The One and Only...]

Well Gasux, who do we, as consumers, have more influence over? Coca-Cola, or the Indian government?

Coca-Cola, but if India's worried about it, they should speak up. It's not our problem.

[Bennett]

"but if India's worried about it, they should speak up. It's not our problem."

I might not be a genius, but I'm pretty sure that's what the article was about... now go watch my movies. They're funny and relevant to this discussion.

[The One and Only...]

"but if India's worried about it, they should speak up. It's not our problem."

I might not be a genius, but I'm pretty sure that's what the article was about... now go watch my movies. They're funny and relevant to this discussion.

What I mean is that their government should go: "Bitch, get yo' ass outta my block!!!"

[KevinTheOmnivore]

In 30-40 years, who can say? It'll take that long for places like India to become too "expensive" for companies to be located in.

30 to 40 years? You're kidding, right? And even if it were that long, that could be potentially worse. Then you're talking at least one, maybe two generations of Indians who have become dependent upon Mother Coke to pay off their debts and put food on their tables.

The whole idea behind this neato- cool globalization stuff is that an interdependancy of markets is supposed to make everybody better. Ya know, all boats rise together sort of thing?? This is hardly the case when you have third world nations serving as exporting nations to Western nations that are primarily importing nations. There's one boat rising, and it's got DVD players with surround sound.

Hell, they've got social problems up the ass that they still need to deal with, specifically their caste system that continues to endure despite efforts to halt it.

This shouldn't be our business, and Coca-cola providing a few jobs for ex-farmers certainly isn't going to crack into this.

There are already people in India left with "no water, no domestic infrastructure, and an ignorant class offactory workers." And you know who put them there? Other Indians, not corporations.

Right. So back to how that justifies perpetuating such conditions....?

[AChimp]

Okay, time for seriousness.

I seem to recall that about 20 years ago, Coke left India because of a copyright/patent battle. The Indian government demanded that they turn over the "secret formula" to the public so other companies could copy the drink and produce it themselves. Coke refused, closed all the factories and pulled out of the country completely in retaliation. A few years ago the government and laws changed, so Coke re-entered the market.

There's a lot of ill-will remaining in India against Coke because this, though, and I think that these people will say anything to try to make Coke look bad. Notice that nobody there starts bitching about Pepsi, who were never asked to reveal their secrets. Also note how the names of the reporters who wrote those articles are Indian. :rolleyes

Coke is a huge global company now. They don't even count as a multinational anymore; they're bigger than that. Coke will not be "disgorging" toxic waste anywhere. Factory conditions and standards are kept to an absolute maximum, because the last thing they want is a big PR battle. Humans aren't even allowed into the room where the actual Coke is produced unless there is a problem because everything has to be kept perfectly clean, that's why they don't need thousands of employees anymore.

These farmers are just trying to keep a decades-old feud active in grand old Indian tradition and attempting to justify their archaic lifestyle. If you can't keep up, don't bitch about how everyone should slow down for you. There wouldn't even BE a Coke plant in India if Indians weren't drinking Coke. :rolleyes

[AChimp]

30 to 40 years? You're kidding, right? And even if it were that long, that could be potentially worse. Then you're talking at least one, maybe two generations of Indians who have become dependent upon Mother Coke to pay off their debts and put food on their tables.
Yes, because the few hundred Indians who work at the Coke plant will be reflective of the rest of Indian society, which is completely dependent on Coke. :rolleyes

You're forgetting the caste system again. There's only a few brands of Indian who would be allowed to consider working in the Coke factory.

This is hardly the case when you have third world nations serving as exporting nations to Western nations that are primarily importing nations. There's one boat rising, and it's got DVD players with surround sound.
Puh-leese. India is hardly a Third World country. When half your population lives like we do in the West, and the other half get to muck out clogged sewers, it's a social problem, not the fault of corporations. :blah

Right. So back to how that justifies perpetuating such conditions....?
Perpetuating how? Like I said in my previous post, Coke is providing a product that millions of Indians use, throw away and stop caring about like the rest of us.

[Jeanette X]

[Right. So back to how that justifies perpetuating such conditions....?
Perpetuating how? Like I said in my previous post, Coke is providing a product that millions of Indians use, throw away and stop caring about like the rest of us.
Perpetuating by the toxic slurry and the draining of the water, thats how!

There's a lot of ill-will remaining in India against Coke because this, though, and I think that these people will say anything to try to make Coke look bad. Notice that nobody there starts bitching about Pepsi, who were never asked to reveal their secrets. Also note how the names of the reporters who wrote those articles are Indian.

Coke is a huge global company now. They don't even count as a multinational anymore; they're bigger than that. Coke will not be "disgorging" toxic waste anywhere. Factory conditions and standards are kept to an absolute maximum, because the last thing they want is a big PR battle. Humans aren't even allowed into the room where the actual Coke is produced unless there is a problem because everything has to be kept perfectly clean, that's why they don't need thousands of employees anymore.

Oh, bullshit. If this was all true, then why is there an independent BBC investigation that says that the "fertilizer" that they gave to the Indians is toxic?
So just because the names of the reporters were Indian means that the report can't possibly be objective? Do you really think that all of India's billions of people are pissed off at Coke for not revealing their secret formula? I doubt the majority even care.

These farmers are just trying to keep a decades-old feud active in grand old Indian tradition and attempting to justify their archaic lifestyle. If you can't keep up, don't bitch about how everyone should slow down for you. There wouldn't even BE a Coke plant in India if Indians weren't drinking Coke.Did it ever occur to you that the Coke might be being EXPORTED, numbnuts? And I'd hardly call growing badly needed food with a sophisticated irrigation system "an archaic lifestyle", especially when Coke isn't providing a lot of jobs to these people.

[AChimp]

I doubt the majority even care.
Exactly. So why are you if Indians themselves do not?

There's only a tiny percentage of people who are really pissed off at Coke, and the rest of them just go along buying it up as usual, not caring that the coconut farmers can't show off their supposed sophistication with irrigation systems.

Did it ever occur to you that the Coke might be being EXPORTED, numbnuts?
Coke doesn't export Coke around much, especially not in a billion-consumer market. They build factories where the demand is high because they are global, or contract out to local bottlers. The Coke you drink is probably made nearby, within 100 km, especially if you live near a big city.

Sure, that Coke plant might be servicing a few neighbouring countries, but the local market always comes first with a product like Coke.

India has really strict trade controls and an ass-backwards transportation system. If Coke were to export anything in that region, they would do it from somewhere else like Thailand or Singapore, otherwise Coke would cost $30 per bottle in some places, making it totally useless for any consumer.

Bottom line, no Coke plant in India if India wasn't consuming said Coke.

[Jeanette X]

So why are you if Indians themselves do not?
Ask yourself why most people on this board care motives for Iraq when 1/3 of the country thinks the WMDs have been found.

There's only a tiny percentage of people who are really pissed off at Coke, and the rest of them just go along buying it up as usual, not caring that the coconut farmers can't show off their supposed sophistication with irrigation systems.
If the Indians were aware of it, I think they would care.

Bottom line, no Coke plant in India if India wasn't consuming said Coke.
So any criticism and opposition of a business in any country is essentially b.s. if not every single person in the country effected is aware of it and is taking action?

[AChimp]

Ask yourself why most people on this board care motives for Iraq when 1/3 of the country thinks the WMDs have been found.
Is 1/3 of Americans a majority? Are they indicative of the rest of America? Are these villagers in India a majority?

If the Indians were aware of it, I think they would care.
Let me put this into a little bit of perspective for you:

When you hear that a few dozen farmers in Kansas have had their crops ruined for one reason or another, do you stop everything you are doing and start writing your Congressman demanding immediate action?

No, you do not, since you live in Connecticut and the Kansas farmers are thousands of miles away. The plight of a handful of Kansas hicks has no bearing on what you do. Yes, you might feel a little bit of sympathy, but you don't really change anything about your way of life and go about your business as if nothing has happened.

Now imagine that the U.S. has a population four times as large as what it is now. That makes these few dozen farmers an even smaller minority, and when it comes down to it, the small amount of crops that they produce compared to every other farmer in Kansas, and the rest of the country, is a drop of piss compared to the ocean.

There will be no coconut famine in India because these guys can't grow anything anymore. The average Indian will not give a shit, especially if he or she doesn't like coconuts anyways, because it will not affect them. They have their own water problems to worry about.

Besides, coconut farmers belong to a lower caste and are beneath notice, except when you are telling him to get out of your way.

So any criticism and opposition of a business in any country is essentially b.s. if not every single person in the country effected is aware of it and is taking action?
Go ahead and criticize away. Just don't expect people to take you seriously when it's coconut farmers in a country that has a record of not being receptive to Western companies that are making the allegations.

The need for Coke products by millions of people supercedes the needs of a few coconut farmers and the village dog. That's just the way the world works.

[Jeanette X]

Is 1/3 of Americans a majority? Are they indicative of the rest of America? Are these villagers in India a majority?
I'm afraid you have misunderstood me I mean that we, a small handfull of people, are hotly debating the Iraq issue while 1/3 of America is astoundingly ignorant about it, and rest don't seem to care much more. My point is that simply because not that many people seem to care too deeply about the Iraq issue doesn't make it irrelevant.


When you hear that a few dozen farmers in Kansas have had their crops ruined for one reason or another, do you stop everything you are doing and start writing your Congressman demanding immediate action?
If it was caused by a giant corperation utterly screwing those people over, then yes, I would start writing letters to the appropriate people and boycotting their product.


Go ahead and criticize away. Just don't expect people to take you seriously when it's coconut farmers in a country that has a record of not being receptive to Western companies that are making the allegations.
Although India is not without fault in handling these situations, I think that the incident in Bhopal and the reaction of the Western company involved is a good reason for them to not be immdiately squealing with joy whenever a new factory opens up.

The need for Coke products by millions of people supercedes the needs of a few coconut farmers and the village dog. That's just the way the world works.
I'm not proposing that Coke stop making their products. I'd just like to see them do it without harming an entire community.

[VinceZeb]

These people can just as easily not work at the factory, not buy the products and not accept Coke's existance.

India wouldn't have this problem if they wouldn't have decided to breed millions upon millions of people in an area that isn't very supportive of the human being. They wouldn't have these kinds of problems if they would get rid of their idiotic primal caste system that denies people their freedoms and liberties.

Besides, Achimp was being a smartass about the dirty water, but it is a truthism. These people bathe and drink the same fucking water they let the cows shit and piss and bathe in because of their "religious beliefs". I tolerate their beliefs but don't ask me to keep a straight face when they talk about sacred cows. They make the best burgers, as someone once said. It's also nice to see that Achimp is coming around to the capitalist "dark side", if you will. The lightsaber and the financial Force powers are in the mail.


And on another topic, if you hate that we are shipping help-desk jobs over to India, Russia, and China just do what I do. Ask the help desk person what location you are calling. If it ain't America, or it sounds like someone that ain't from the U.S. of A., I tell them to transfer me to someone from my country. Is it bigoted and snotty? You're damn right. But I'd rather wait 2 hours on the phone with someone that can actually speak English instead of horrible broken need-a-translator-stone-to-understand puesdo-English you get lately.

[Jeanette X]

AAAAAAAAIIIIIIIEEEE! HE CAME BACK! :shocked

[AChimp]

The lightsaber and the financial Force powers are in the mail.
AWESOME! :)

[kellychaos]

Jeanette you seem to be prejudiced but in an unconscious yet caring way ... i.e. you mean well. It's like AChimp said "India is NOT a third world country." I may be reading this the wrong way but you seem to be under the misconception that India is a hapless victim of corporatization that can't take care of themselves. I think that you're underestimating them and that that article is a politically slanted piece of rubbish with an obvious political agenda.

[The One and Only...]

And on another topic, if you hate that we are shipping help-desk jobs over to India, Russia, and China just do what I do. Ask the help desk person what location you are calling. If it ain't America, or it sounds like someone that ain't from the U.S. of A., I tell them to transfer me to someone from my country. Is it bigoted and snotty? You're damn right. But I'd rather wait 2 hours on the phone with someone that can actually speak English instead of horrible broken need-a-translator-stone-to-understand puesdo-English you get lately.

Classic.

[Zhukov]

capitalism without morality just sucks so freaking bad.


What the hell? "Capitalists with morals" don't make money.



Doesn't anybody here understand simple psuedo-english!
I agree that the way to end this problem lies with the indian people.

[AChimp]

The article also fails to take into account OTHER causes that could be contributing to the low water table (which, BTW, is lowering all over India)... such as drought, or the neighbouring town taking it all.

[kellychaos]

Exactly. It's slanted. Critical thinking and paying attention to what's NOT said it an article speaks just as loudly as the facts that ARE given. I don't recall too many words from the opposition. Just because Coke is the Evil Empire doesn't mean they don't deserve a say. I don't have all the facts yet (and that just it) but I refuse to form an opinion just based on the facts in this particular article.

[Jeanette X]

Jeanette you seem to be prejudiced but in an unconscious yet caring way ... i.e. you mean well. It's like AChimp said "India is NOT a third world country." I may be reading this the wrong way but you seem to be under the misconception that India is a hapless victim of corporatization that can't take care of themselves. I think that you're underestimating them and that that article is a politically slanted piece of rubbish with an obvious political agenda.

No, I don't underestimate India. I think they can take care of it. I just posted it on here because it looked interesting.

As for balance, what about this?

Coca-Cola denies responsibility for all this. In a statement from its headquarters in Atlanta, it said: "We would like to emphasise that, to the best of our knowledge, these allegations made against the plant in Kerala are untrue.

"In fact, we believe that the allegations are politically motivated. The plant concerned has not drained the aquifers and uses only six bore wells. In fact, the local villages receive tankers of free water supplies each day from the plant to supplement their existing water sources." And, it said, the company was establishing an elaborate system for rainwater harvesting.

The real culprit, the company says, is a reduction in rainfall in the area - from 1,213 mm in 2000, to 1,147mm in 2001 and just 670mm in 2002. It quotes India's National Geophysical Research Institute in Hyderabad as saying: "There is no field evidence of overexploitation of the groundwater reserves in the plant area."

[VinceZeb]

Capitalism is supposed to have morality in it.

Adam Smith, the man who basically created mordern capitalism in 1776, said that business have the sole responsability to make money. But also the business should not become a monopoly and they should help the truly less fortunante and poor.

Socialism on the other hand.......

[mburbank]

"Truthism" is not a word, having children isn't 'breeding', if Adam Smith said something was a 'sole responsability' than he wouldn't have listed any other responsabilities after that, owing to the meaning of the word sole, the plural of business is businesses.

Aren't we still under warranty with Orkin? 'Cause I see a filthy dung beetle pushing a big old ball of crap.

[Big Papa Goat]

But also the business should not become a monopoly and they should help the truly less fortunante and poor.

What makes someone "truly" less fortunate and poor? And what exactly is the motivation, under capitalism, for businessmen to help the poor, or not monopolize their industries? Pure capitalism doesn't work any better than pure socialism.

[FS]

I think Vince's conditions for being "truly less fortunate and poor" consists mainly of "being Vince".

[Mungus the Foon]

whoever it was going on about sacred cows in india. you are wrong.
cows are only sacred to hindus and whilst there are a lot of hindus in india there are also a lot of muslims and sikhs. there are also other religions present in a lesser capacity.
the cow is the symbol of laxmi (the hindu goddess of wealth (i think))
anyway, india is not a hindu state and is in fact an exporter of beef.
it is illegal to kill cows in NEPAL, which is a hindu state, although it is still legal to eat beef which has been imported from india.
india IS a third world country by all definitions of the word spend a few months there and you will understand.
i know that this is pretty irrelevant but there you go.

[ScruU2wice]

my dad was born there and he says it isnt a third world country... dont think that you've actually been there because you've read a couple articles about the country >:

[VinceZeb]

What makes someone "Truly" less fortunate? Well, those kids you see on the Christian Children's Fund commericials would count. People that sleep with bugs and dirt and drink shit water and eat rancid food I believe count. Do I have to get any more specific or are you going to ask another idoitic question? If you don't know the difference between someone who is whining becuase they can't afford air conditioning and someone who hasn't eaten in 10 days because there exists no food then you need to go back to your hole.

[mburbank]

Wow, there's actually kids like that? Huh. I sure hope the coca cola company will help them. I'm sure they will, though. I mean, they do want to teach the world to smile.

[Mungus the Foon]

although i spent MOST of last year in nepal teaching english in kathmandu that doesn't mean that i didn't go to india.
i did. it is a third world country.
if you don't believe it then i suggest that you visit it yourself. a quick look around delhi (old or new) will confirm it.
yes there are modern things around and yes there are some rich people around but mostly there isn't. for a start look at the roads, then look at the places where most people live. gorakpur seems ok but sunauli is a dusty hole.
india is classified as a third world country by anyone who makes these classifications.
:)

[ScruU2wice]

Idk who classifies 3rd world countries, or if there is a standard for a 3rd world country, but its all on how you live. If you live there everything around you is normal, but if you visit from a western country everything around you seems to be reaking poverty. Even though i haven't visited india, i stayed in pakistan and i too was hit by the shock of people sitting and begging for money and the unpaved roads. However, to my cousins it was completely normal. To me pakistan is a 3rd world country to them its home.

im sorry if i made it seem like i was taking a shot at u mungus but i was really bored and angry that i had to stay home on a saturday night :(

[AChimp]

I classify Mungus as a twit.

[Mungus the Foon]

a third world country is classified by the GDP per capita being below a certain level. any country with a GDP per capita below that level is classified as third world or developing to PC morons.
a better measure which is being used more recently is the purchasing power which the people have with the money they earn.
you will have noticed that in countries where the general income is lower goods are cheaper. for this reason it pisses me off when read things saying oh no! there are people out there living on less than £1 a day! boo hoo. i know from experience that it is quite possible to live on less than that quite comfortably as a tourist let alone as a local. in a local restaurant (shed with food for sale) you can get a good meal and a cup of tea for about 8p. you can get a good room for about 60p if you look around. so these people should all die.
back to subject, purchasing power measures whether or not people can live comfortably on the money they get. many people in third world countries can but not as comfortably as we can and many can't. if you travel around nepal you will see people living in sheds by the side of the road, same in india. that is how a third world country is defined. yes, they are used to it and it seems normal but it is a third world country anyway.

achimp- of course i'm a twit but fuck it who cares?

[Zero Signal]

I classify Mungus as a twit.
http://home.comcast.net/~jmdaniel/81.gif

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yes, because the few hundred Indians who work at the Coke plant will be reflective of the rest of Indian society, which is completely dependent on Coke. :rolleyes

I wasn't implying, nor did I ever say that it would be all of Indian society. I think it's pretty clear I was talking about the families/generations of those who work there. :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes (look, I can use the roll eyes emoticon, too!)

You're forgetting the caste system again. There's only a few brands of Indian who would be allowed to consider working in the Coke factory.

What kind of citizens work in a coke factory in the United States?? Are they people with MBAs or PhDs in Physics?? The only difference between the Indian caste system and the economic stratification of places like America is that in India, it's the same families and bloodlines caught in that stratification. America's upward mobility aside, the caste system has little to do with our argument.

This is hardly the case when you have third world nations serving as exporting nations to Western nations that are primarily importing nations. There's one boat rising, and it's got DVD players with surround sound.

Puh-leese. India is hardly a Third World country. When half your population lives like we do in the West, and the other half get to muck out clogged sewers, it's a social problem, not the fault of corporations. :blah

I never said all of India was a third world nation, I was addressing the system of globalization as a whole. :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes (Woah! This is fun!)

I think you're also grossly over-stating the "half of them live like us" point. Roughly 1/4 of the country lives in terrible poverty, the kind that would make even America's poorest look like wealthy aristocrats. If half the population is doing so well, "like us," then why do their brains come to our countries to make and save some money to return home with???

Perpetuating how? Like I said in my previous post, Coke is providing a product that millions of Indians use, throw away and stop caring about like the rest of us.

Jeanette addressed the water issue, but back to my initial point, there's a question of self-sustainability. Since 2002, India's agricultural output has dropped, which means farmers are shit out of luck. Do you think it's just these couple-hundred workers who are/will be working for a multi-national in India???

[Big Papa Goat]

What makes someone "Truly" less fortunate? Well, those kids you see on the Christian Children's Fund commericials would count. People that sleep with bugs and dirt and drink shit water and eat rancid food I believe count. Do I have to get any more specific or are you going to ask another idoitic question? If you don't know the difference between someone who is whining becuase they can't afford air conditioning and someone who hasn't eaten in 10 days because there exists no food then you need to go back to your hole.

So business should help people in third world countries? But I thought foreign aid was for commies? Just like welfare, taxes and public education right?

[Zero Signal]

What makes someone "Truly" less fortunate? Well, those kids you see on the Christian Children's Fund commericials would count. People that sleep with bugs and dirt and drink shit water and eat rancid food I believe count. Do I have to get any more specific or are you going to ask another idoitic question? If you don't know the difference between someone who is whining becuase they can't afford air conditioning and someone who hasn't eaten in 10 days because there exists no food then you need to go back to your hole.
Too bad that 80% of the money that the CCF scams out of people never sees the light of day in these countries with starving people.

The executives at CCF make money hand over fist for their salary and it seems that whatever they drop actually goes to the people that they claim that they are helping.

:rolleyes

[KevinTheOmnivore]

:rolleyes