finding god

[george]

ok, i have been a hard core atheist for a long time. i make no bones about my distaste for religon and all the phony piousness that it entails.

but recently i had a revelation of sorts. i will not try to explain it (a lot of it involves some internal logic that would really only make sense to me, and would take a whole thread of it's own), more than to say i sort of had a moment of clarity that answered all my doubts, and now i am firmly in the "has faith" camp.

but, this is not to say that i accept RELIGON. my view was altered as to the nature of God and the universe, not towards the church. i have found a pleasent little church to go to, and it has made me happier, but i still reject a lot of the intepretation they have of the bible and morality.

so, i guess the question i am working towards here is wether or not you can truly believe in god and reject the philosophy of the church. isnt it sort of like voodoo if you pick and choose the parts you want to believe so that eveything fits your worldview? or is my faith just as valid because i came to my faith by questioning and doubting until i came to an answer that suited ME?

[jin]

Religion is like anything in life, you will end up choosing and picking out the parts that fit into your own interpretations simply because of natural human bias and ego.

It may be better that you do this by choice rather than try to believe that you are following the TRUE religion, because after all, all the ceremonies and interpretations and themes were all created or modified by people and their own personal visions.

Thats why there are so many churches, cults, segments and variations of the church.

There is no true be all and end all church, and whatever helps you to live a life which is correct and good to yourself, and helps you deal with problems is what you need.

Ps. sorry if this is all a bit muddled, i just woke up. :/

[Miss Modular]

so, i guess the question i am working towards here is wether or not you can truly believe in god and reject the philosophy of the church. isnt it sort of like voodoo if you pick and choose the parts you want to believe so that eveything fits your worldview?

George, I've run by that MO since adolescence. I really don't care for my church's dogma, but I can't help but think there's something out there powering my destiny. Whatever it is, I call it "God".

[punkgrrrlie10]

I follow a same type of ideal. I learn about faith, and use my own logic as to what I think is right. The bible was written by men and men are fallible. If something seems inconsistent with me, I don't believe it then. Of course, I don't try to push my ideals on anyone else, b/c realizing that people can be wrong, I know I could be too. And sending someone to an eternity in hell would just be too much of a guilt trip for me, and blindly following someone else's interpretation may send me to hell. So basically I just take responsibility for my own faith.

[AChimp]

I bet there's snakes at this church that George is going to... :rolleyes

[Jeanette X]

This is one of the reasons why I am a reform Jew. They allow for a lot of interpretation.
I think you can definetely believe in God but reject organized religion. Churches are man-made institutions, and are not perfect. Even the Bible itself makes no requirement that you attend a house of worship.
So do you now consider yourself a Christian? I would assume so since you are going to a church?

[Carnivore]

I like what Mod said. I'll go with that for my answer :)

[VinceZeb]

And now for a word from a non-hippy lovy dovy type:

God isnt something that you find. He isnt lost or hidden behind a curtain. He is all around, you have to just accept His existance, which it seems you have.

Now, when it comes to the Bible, you have to accept it. There are some things in the Bible I don't really like, but it comes with the terroritory of being Christian.

Now, if you are Christian, you do have to accept that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and it's only through Him that people are reedeemed.

[sspadowsky]

Good for you, George. If that's something that makes you happier, I think that's great.

As for me, I grew up in a Baptist church. Looking back, it was a rotten experience, and I think it's a horrible thing to do to a kid: filling them with guilt and fear before they're old enough to know what the hell is going on. And abandoning religion was the best, most liberating experience of my life.

I still haven't decided if I believe there is any higher power. There's something wonderfully ironic about the idea that this is all just random chance, and people still try to find proof of a grand designer. If there's some omnipotent force out there that put this all together, I bet it's far different than the human concept of "God." And, if it does exist, it's obviously got a pretty twisted sense of humor.

[Zero Signal]

A church is simply a building for fellowshipping with others like yourself. The body is the temple of God, not some church or other building.

[FS]

But the great thing about God is that you don't need to be a Christian to believe. You just need to occasionally punch people in the mouth when they won't shut up about how you're believing wrongly.

[Carnivore]

Now, when it comes to the Bible, you have to accept it. There are some things in the Bible I don't really like, but it comes with the terroritory of being Christian.

A bolt of lightning didn't strike and the Bible magically appear. It was written by people interpreting what they believe to be the word of God. It is self-contradictory and fallible.

[kellychaos]

Nature is a mutable cloud which is always and never the same. She casts the same thought into troops of forms, as a poet makes twenty fables with one moral. Through the bruteness and toughness of matter, a subtle spirit bends all things to its own will. The adamant streams into soft but precise form before it, and whilst I look at it its outline and texture are changed again. Nothing is so fleeting as form; yet never does it quite deny itself.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson


To me this says, in part, religion is where you find it but may appear as in different form ... also that there is a spirit within and without us that will ensure we are on the right path.


Socrates Allegory Of The Cave

Whereas, our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good.



Language comes short of the mark and man deforms by "interpretation" those words that may even come close. Even so, the right spirit is in the words and the interpretation is already inside you once you get past the clouded bastardization of organized religion. I've looked all my life and still haven't found all of what I need. Modesty is a virtue in this regard and all those who think they know everthing they need to know about their existence are fooling nobody but themselves.

[Sethomas]

The best way to find god, I hear, is to drop acid and climb a tree.

As I spieled in the Catholicism thread, faith in the bible without corroboration from orthodox religion doesn't make logical sense. All the same, I guess it's better than nothing.

[Vibecrewangel]

I'm actually gonna type this out instead of using an emoticon because right now I mean it.

I love you George. You are another in a strange line of people that have said something just like this recently.

For those of you who read my family posts......my youngest sister and I met for the first time 10 years. She is 22 now and the most amazing woman I have EVER met. Everything I went through is all worth it. She is happy and healthy. Living with and helping less fortunate children at a religous camp/community. She is glorious. And sees the world the same way you are seeing it now.

On my birthday I asked for a sign...that my life wasn't a waste. And she showed up at my door with no warning.
I have no doubt that there is something out there......

[mburbank]

"God is bigger than the Boogey-man"
-Veggie Tales

"Some people can't tell the difference between God and the Boogey man. "
-Me.

[Sethomas]

According to Aquinas, evil can't exist in and of itself, so evil is just an inadequacy of good. Furthermore, free will can't over power God's will, so God's will entails all evil. :eek

[george]

part of what turned me back towards having faith was a book i picked up on the history of the bible. it did a good job of explaining what parts of the bible are historical, and what parts are "inspired lessons", i found out a lot of what i disliked from the bible had a different meaning that what i had been taught to believe.

plus i really like the idea that jesus looked a lot like the pre haircut carni.

i love you too VCA.

[Jeanette X]

Wow, thats amazing VCAngel. I'm very happy for you. :)

[Vibecrewangel]

I love how simple it often is. A book. Something someone said. I've always thought that spiritualism is personal. Church always seemed to strip that away. Among other things.
I'm really glad you found that simple thing that changed it for you.

Jeanette :) thanks!

[Helm]

Nothing is better than something if the something is stupid.

As to god without church: I have a hard time taking the concept of an all-powerful, omnipresent, eternal God. I could accept the possibility of some vastly different sort of life-form as the creator of some of the things the creation of which we attribute to god, but then that wouldn't be a 'god' by most definitions. So um... my main beef isn't with the church (or rather, I have a completely different sort of beef with the church) but with the moronity of the concept of the Judeo-Christian model of 'god' to begin with.


As to your experience and resulting shift in belief, just keep in mind that people usually underestimate their ability to completely bulshit themselves blind. Some things just seem too attractive to pass up, apparently. Just be very critical of your beliefs, and especially on why you have them. You wouldn't believe how many people force themselves to believe this and that just so they have something interesting to say at parties. I know I've done it, and when I did it I don't think I classified for a complete moron, so apparently this is not an attribute of only those of little intellectual capacity. In fact, I'd wagger that the more complex ideas you fathom, the more you're in danger of 'buying into your own bulshit' so to speak. You wouln't believe what stuff people say and keep a straight face about it.

[O71394658]

Many believe that "religion" in and of itself is not necessary for belief in God, or some form of omnipotent higher power. Religion would be the classification on exactly who/what that higher power consists of, and the proper way in which to revere and please him (I'm going to use the masculine reference here, hope nobody gets pissed :) )

That said, one can believe in God and not follow a specific religion. Merely the acknowlegement that some form of higher power exists, whether it be- God, Mother Nature, love personified, or a amorphous cloud constitutes that religion isn't necessary...

There are others (like myself) who follow a very strict and previously guided path onto what God exactly is. As a member of any such religious faith, you acknowledge that:
1. There is a God (or God(s), or some form of essence that governs or resides over humanity...whether it be love, The Over-Soul, or any other form of existance)
2. The God that you believe in is the right one, and all the other Gods are made up or misguided.
3. You know exactly what pleases God, and what pisses him off.
4. You know about the spiritual path necessary to enlightment, or perhaps a mere understanding on to how things are the way they are.

There are many such sects, and they mostly arose from "fuck you" attitudes. For example, there was the sentence told to Peter..."you are the rock upon which I will build my Church". The modern day Roman Catholic faith traces its origin to that very sentence. Other religous sects (like many Orthodox sects specifically) believe that they are in fact the true descendants of that sentence. Other sects have arisen from humans dissatisfied with the current attitude of the Church they were a member of. Martin Luther, John Calvin, King Edward all developed "fuck you" attitude to the basic "Church", in that breaking away from the corrupt and evil practices of that particluar denomination that they would be justified, by God, to establish their own true form of the Church.

Regarding Helm's post. I must admit, it is very easy to push things on God. I know this isn't specifically what you addressed, but something you said relates to this. Relating to the whole religious argument- atheists vs. religious folk- there are relatively strong points to both sides. Atheists would say something along the lines of "Explain God. Why does he do what he does, if he's so perfect". Christians may respond along the lines of "there is no way to explain God. He isn't bound to laws of logic or reason." Truthfully, that is what we believe. It just is very simple. Throwing the entire question onto the soldiers of "we can't understand" isn't going to do anybody any good. Much the same way that you're supposed to "be like Jesus" even though it's impossible, we can at least make the attempt to understand God, even though that may be impossible. God is often used as a crutch for people to lean on (and this is actually the point, but in relating to face-to-face argument, this doesn't come across well to non-believers). Saying 'it's in God's hands now" or "God will provide" or "God will take care of it", is stating that you are throwing personal feelings, emotions, responsiblities, or hardships onto the very shoulders of God himself, merely hoping that everything turns out right in the end. Using God as a psychological escape route is something that many people do, whether they really and truly acknowlege the existance of God or not. On the other hand, there are simply things that cannot be explained. All God-believing religious folk would be the first to state that God isn't bound to laws that he essentially created (thus presenting the entire debacle- as people who don't believe in God try to disprove His existance using these very laws of logic and reason). There are, however, whether people want to believe it or not, things that cannot be explained. Laws of physics and chemistry that come into question when God enters the picture. When rules and laws that we are bound to are sometimes bent, or even broken, it brings into the question of whether there are miracles, -interventions from God-, or merely "exceptions" to the rule. (I've even seen miracles used in trying to disprove the existance of God).

Anyway, I've gotten off on a serious tangent. George, all I can say is that I'm glad you've found something, whatever it may bel, and I hope you continue to explore it.

[Carnivore]

http://home.comcast.net/~carnivorous/Jesus2.JPG
For George. Bask in my radiance!

[The_voice_of_reason]

I have been doing much thinking latley and i decided that the entire universe is just the mind of God. Every movment of every particle and every possible movement of every particle is a possibility, and the only reason we exist is because our free will represents an infinite number of possibilties so our existance gives "God" an infinitely powerful mind. Now all we need to know is what "God" dreams about.





*climbs down from tree*

[Jeanette X]

Whoa. Thats some heavy stuff there VoR. I'd love to hear more.

*sits cross-legged at your feet as a new disciple*

[ItalianStereotype]

I, on the other hand, think it is utter shit. COMPLETE and utter shit. congratulations on your acceptance to the retard parade.

[Jeanette X]

I, on the other hand, think it is utter shit. COMPLETE and utter shit. congratulations on your acceptance to the retard parade.
What makes you think anyone gives a flying fuck about your opinions? Do me a favor and keep from further ruining an interesting discussion on religion.

[The_voice_of_reason]

I, on the other hand, think it is utter shit. COMPLETE and utter shit. congratulations on your acceptance to the retard parade.



I know, I mean why think for yourself when you can just believe all the shit other people have made up?

[ItalianStereotype]

What makes you think anyone gives a flying fuck about your opinions? Do me a favor and keep from further ruining an interesting discussion on religion.

just about anyone who doesn't like the whiny, unfunny, self-absorbed, animal-nature fuck angle. your brand of tripe has no place in a religious discussion, the philosophy board, I-Mockery, or the internet in general. get back to explaining the intricacies of the African albino pygmy platypus dick and stop meddling in adult affairs.

[The_voice_of_reason]

I also think that our concept of the passage of time is just one of the parameters that this god-mind operates on (after all don't all computers need operational parameters?).

If we could experience all of time at once, it would make the infinite set that is our free will last only a moment* making Gods mind infinitely powerful but infinitely small. However if he can make the infinite spread out over time his mind will be infinitely powerful and as long as life with free will exists. It seems that if he could experience all time at once it would be some how greater than the continious thought that is produced by making humans aware of only one instant at a time, but either way the sum is infinity.


* smallest possible interval

[The_voice_of_reason]

What makes you think anyone gives a flying fuck about your opinions? Do me a favor and keep from further ruining an interesting discussion on religion.

just about anyone who doesn't like the whiny, unfunny, self-absorbed, animal-nature fuck angle. your brand of tripe has no place in a religious discussion, the philosophy board, I-Mockery, or the internet in general. get back to explaining the intricacies of the African albino pygmy platypus dick and stop meddling in adult affairs.

yet you continue to think that what you have to say carries any weight at all.

[ItalianStereotype]

much more than that whiny guess-work that you consider logical thought.

[kellychaos]

Whoa. Thats some heavy stuff there VoR. I'd love to hear more.

*sits cross-legged at your feet as a new disciple*

Koresh disciple potentiality. Beware the fork tongue! :eek

[sspadowsky]

much more than that whiny guess-work that you consider logical thought.

Right and the Catholic Chruch is all about logical thought. Like opposing gay marriage (with a completely straight face) while covering up and protecting the child-fuckers in their ranks. It doesn't get any more logical than that.

Edit: I know I pick on the Catholic Church a lot, but it's just so ridiculous that it makes fun of itself, so it's irresistably easy.

[O71394658]

Spadowsky, every church member didn't and doesn't support the notion of hiding child molestors within the Church ranks. We want them exposed and punished just as much (if not more so) than anyone else.

[Jeanette X]

just about anyone who doesn't like the whiny, unfunny, self-absorbed, animal-nature fuck angle. your brand of tripe has no place in a religious discussion, the philosophy board, I-Mockery, or the internet in general. get back to explaining the intricacies of the African albino pygmy platypus dick and stop meddling in adult affairs.
Look asshole, if you want to have a flame war with me, start a Mock Wars thread instead of fucking up this one.

[Protoclown]

George, I'm glad you found some answers that satisfied you, and I personally feel that discovering shit like this on your own is the best way. I'm a Christian, more or less, but I don't particularly like the Christian church. Follow your own path, George.

[Vibecrewangel]

VoR -
Very similar to what I've talked about in other threads. The singularity being that infinte set of possibilites you call the God-mind.

I still maintain that it is the language that is the sticking point here. The concept remains constant.

Stereotype -
You seem cranky. I give you a big hug. That is assuming you'll let my philosophical cooties near ya. :party (these are my cooties watch them dance)

[Spectre X]

Bruce Campbell is God. >:

[The_Rorschach]

"A bolt of lightning didn't strike and the Bible magically appear. It was written by people interpreting what they believe to be the word of God. It is self-contradictory and fallible."

So why did Christ cite the scriptures both to those whom knew them, the Torah scholars, and the devil (assuming you believe there is a lucifer, or a Christ) himself? Or is this another fallible interpretation of the Apostles?

In any case George, because I do like you, I'll be honest. God is who He is, and has made Himself available to everyone, all He seems to ask in return is that you acknowledge Him and abide by Him. Salvation is free, but not cheap, you would do well to remember that.

If you truly seek Him, you will find Him.

"What makes you think anyone gives a flying fuck about your
opinions? Do me a favor and keep from further ruining an
interesting discussion on religion."

He has a Constitutional right now only to possess an opinion, but to share it. Would you infringe upon his personal rights simply because you find them undesirable? If so, I would much appreciate you creating a seperate thread so we can discuss the tendancy of liberal philosophy to veer towards totalitarianism.

[Jeanette X]

"What makes you think anyone gives a flying fuck about your
opinions? Do me a favor and keep from further ruining an
interesting discussion on religion."

He has a Constitutional right now only to possess an opinion, but to share it. Would you infringe upon his personal rights simply because you find them undesirable? If so, I would much appreciate you creating a seperate thread so we can discuss the tendancy of liberal philosophy to veer towards totalitarianism.

Oh for...http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/sick.gif
No, I would not infringe upon his personal rights Ror. I cannot infringe upon his personal rights, as this is a messageboard and not real life. But he was being an asshole and ruining the thread, and I don't think anyone here wants to listen to his shit. when we were having a very interesting discussion. I was merely expressing my distaste at his obnoxious behavior, and informing him that I wanted him to shut up. Whether he does or not is his choice.

[AChimp]

Why are you apologizing? This is I-Mockery! >:

[Sethomas]

Vox Rationes, the problem with your idea is that it goes against the notion of determinism. What you're suggesting is that the soul enacts free will by fixing the outcome of probabalistic quantum functions. This again invokes the conflict between God's will and human Free will. Besides, determinism wins out aesthetically.

[Jeanette X]

Why are you apologizing? This is I-Mockery! >:
That wasn't an apology. That was an explaination.

[The_voice_of_reason]

Vox Rationes.




I like that. When i was signing up i was originally was going to call myself Deus vox, but i thought that was a bit presumptious (sp?).




And Italian, there is no need to be an asshole when explaining your position. You can just say what you believe without getting all self rightious.




You fucking worthless stupid christ loving cock monger.

[The_Rorschach]

No more presumptuous tha Seth's use of broken Latin :/

And Jeanette, I don't differentiate between a message board, and real life. No more than I would differentiate between what is done publically and privately. One's actions, regardless of the stage they are played out upon, are a testament to their character. Silencing discension, regardless of whether the subject matter is itself convoluted or crude, is still a form of censorship, in spirit if not in deed.

On a seperate note, how do you feel about hate literature? Should it be protected under the auspice of 'Free Speach' or limited as a purely instigational provision as covered in tyhe 'Fighting Words' clause?

[Vibecrewangel]

Hey.....if it weren't for hate literature I would never have found this site.

Thank you crack-o-minty-poprocks

[Jeanette X]

And Jeanette, I don't differentiate between a message board, and real life. No more than I would differentiate between what is done publically and privately. One's actions, regardless of the stage they are played out upon, are a testament to their character. Silencing discension, regardless of whether the subject matter is itself convoluted or crude, is still a form of censorship, in spirit if not in deed.

On a seperate note, how do you feel about hate literature? Should it be protected under the auspice of 'Free Speach' or limited as a purely instigational provision as covered in tyhe 'Fighting Words' clause?
Haven't you ever told someone to shut up when they were being obnoxious or rude? Furthermore I seem to recall you telling me I shouldn't be on the Philosophy board when I first joined the forums. :blah
And yes, I do believe that hate literature should be protected.

[The_Rorschach]

I'm guilty of many things, worse than that. The best I can manage is to correct myself, and illuminate a better way for others whom might be interested.

Surely you are not suggesting I cannot grow as a person?

Compassion doesn't come easily to everyone, but I'm working on it.

[Jeanette X]

What does this have to do with compassion?
Furthermore, since you do not differentiate between boards and real life, would you think it was unconstitutional for a board admin to eject a spammer or other obnoxious person?

[The_Rorschach]

Not to change the subject at all but. . .I tend to be somewhat spartan, and a little harsh, in my outlook, but ideaological in my beliefs -An ideaology which, contrary to my Nietzsche leanings, is rooted in compassion for my fellow man. Practicality wise, I would love nothing more than to cloister this forum off only to those with both an educated and informed base in matters concering politics, philosophy and religion. Ideaologically, I believe with all my heart in the Supreme Law of the Land, which mandates amongst many things, that every man possesses the right to voice their opinion without censorship. That suggests, by innuendo, that the fount of knowledge is drawn from the waters of multiplicity in opinion. So there is an inconsistancy: Fair censorship for the sake of discussion, or freedom of forum for the hope of betterment? I chose what I see as the only accetpable response.

Ironically, it was the most useless person in this forum which forced my decision. I realized that as knee-jerk, worthless and predictable as Vince tends to be, being uneducated, easily swayed and insane in no way revokes his rights. And regardless of whether I respect him, or his views, I have to respect his right to existance and expression. I think that speaks for my feelings regarding obnoxious individuals :)

As for spammers. .. Advertising has its place, especially in America where our place in the world was established through out economic and technological finesse rather than our political beliefs, but there are limits. I don't believe even the strongest capitalist conviction would try and equate advertising with expression. They are two entirely different animals.

[Sethomas]

Voice: That'd be Vox Dei, if you meant "voice of god".
Ror: Cur dices est "broken" quae scripsi?

[Spectre X]

Bruce Campbell is God. >:

and I'll add a second ' >: ' to that seeing as you still won't understand. >:

There, I have three now, happy? >:

FOUR!

[Sethomas]

Submerge your head in water. Inhale.

[FartinMowler]

I can relate to Sspadowski..

I still haven't decided if I believe there is any higher power. There's something wonderfully ironic about the idea that this is all just random chance, and people still try to find proof of a grand designer. If there's some omnipotent force out there that put this all together, I bet it's far different than the human concept of "God." And, if it does exist, it's obviously got a pretty twisted sense of humor.


And even The_Rorschach can surprise...


I'm guilty of many things, worse than that. The best I can manage is to correct myself, and illuminate a better way for others whom might be interested.

Surely you are not suggesting I cannot grow as a person?

Compassion doesn't come easily to everyone, but I'm working on it.

I would like to believe but I have had too many terrible things happen to me in my life and it wasn't god that helped me and he isn't getting the credit thank you.

[Sethomas]

'Cuz God's existence depends on making us feel good, and stuff.

[Zero Signal]

I would like to believe but I have had too many terrible things happen to me in my life and it wasn't god that helped me and he isn't getting the credit thank you.
That is some of the saddest bullshit I have heard, and something that so many people say. Do you even hear what you are saying? You had some bad things happen you and when you didn't get a handout from God (when you neither believed in Him nor asked Him for help), you blame Him for it. That is just fantastic. :rolleyes

I "would like to believe" that you "would like to believe", but from what you said above you have no intention of ever believing anything about God. Save your breath next time and just keep your mouth shut before you say something this ignorant again.

[The_Rorschach]

Si decem habeas linguas, mutum esse addecet. ;)

[Zero Signal]

Si decem habeas linguas, mutum esse addecet. ;)
If I had ten tongues, I would be in pornos. ;)

Asinus asinorum in saecula saeculorum

[The_Rorschach]

Hey, well, its been two and half semesters since my last Latin coarse. "Lingo Warez" doesn't translate well, so I had to improvise. I suppose I could have said 'many tongued' instead, but I chose ten since that is the number of well known languages out there.

Screw you if you don't like it hippy!

[Zero Signal]

I thought you had it correct. :/

"Even if you had ten tongues, you should hold them all."

[FartinMowler]

:(

[FartinMowler]

[quote]I "would like to believe" that you "would like to believe", but from what you said above you have no intention of ever believing anything about God. [quote]

Well that sure didn't make me want to join..I believe I will go have a cup of coffee and read the comics :)

[Big Papa Goat]

He has a Constitutional right now only to possess an opinion, but to share it. Would you infringe upon his personal rights simply because you find them undesirable? If so, I would much appreciate you creating a seperate thread so we can discuss the tendancy of liberal philosophy to veer towards totalitarianism.
About the Constitutional Rights thing... isn't this the internet, and isn't the internet a global communications medium? And therefore, aren't the laws of the United States void here? Its not like you can go to England and demand to buy a gun because back in America it was a constitutional right.

Oh ya, and name me a liberal philosophy that veers towards totalitarianism Rorshac.
P.S- Hitler, Soviet Union and Mao= Revolutionary, not liberal.
P.P.S- Please, don't start arguing about gun control, it was just an example.

[Zero Signal]

About the Constitutional Rights thing... isn't this the internet, and isn't the internet a global communications medium? And therefore, aren't the laws of the United States void here? Its not like you can go to England and demand to buy a gun because back in America it was a constitutional right.
If it is within a particular jurisdiction, then sure, it is applicable.

[VinceZeb]

Oh ya, and name me a liberal philosophy that veers towards totalitarianism Rorshac.
P.S- Hitler, Soviet Union and Mao= Revolutionary, not liberal.

Those items are... not liberal?

The common good comes before the private good.
-- Nazi slogan

We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society.
-- Hillary Clinton


Hmmm.....

[FS]

Vince, one of the most fascinating things about the nazis is that a surprisingly low percentage of them set themselves on fire. Unless I'm mistaken, you have never set yourself on fire either. Gee, what are you... a NAZI!?!?!??

[VinceZeb]

Nice try.

The last time I checked, setting one's self on fire wasn't a central tenant of believing in the teachings of Buddha.

[Zero Signal]

Nice try.

The last time I checked, setting one's self on fire wasn't a central tenant of believing in the teachings of Buddha.
So now you are a Buddhist.

[Big Papa Goat]

The common good comes before the private good.

We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society.

lib·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States

Where does it say something about the common good?
And the Nazi party may have said that they care more about the common good than the private good, but there actions speak louder than words. Clearly by 'common' good they meant the good of the german race, at the expense of the world, and even within the german people, Nazi policies tended to be favorable towards wealthy businessmen.
I don't want to start another Patriot Act argument, but isn't it sacrificing the rights of individuals in favor of the security of soceity?

[/quote]

[kellychaos]

The Worker's Party, which Hitler was a part of, was socialist but that doesn't necessarily mean that Hitler himself was. Sometimes leaders will jump into whatever party is on the rise to gain clout and then jump ship after they've established their familiarity. Ya dig?

[Big Papa Goat]

I thought Hitler started the national socialist party? But I dig what your saying, I think thats definitely what Mussolini did.

[kellychaos]

I thought Hitler started the national socialist party? But I dig what your saying, I think thats definitely what Mussolini did.

It started out as the German Worker's Party. Here's a pretty good link that shows the evolution of the party:

LINK (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazi.htm)

[The_Rorschach]

Hitler advocated National Socialism buddy, and so do many of the people who see him as something of a modern day messiah.

[FS]

I swear Vince's retorts are rapidly falling apart into just randomly generated words.

Perhaps he is science's first attempt at producing the emotion "impotent rage" in artificial intelligence, but the fact that his system has been active for over 48 hours straight has caused his program to become corrupted. God have mercy on us all.

[Zero Signal]

NSDAP = die National Sozialisten Deutsches Arbeitspartei = Nazi

woo. we learned that in first year German. jeez

[kellychaos]

He may have advocated it as a way to sell his ideas but what he was was an elitist, nationalistic, totalitarian dictator. That is NOT socialism. I'm not even going to argue the point with someone who can't see THAT simple difference so stop before you start. I can already feel the hot air of your self-stroking rhetoric.