Miracles

[Sethomas]

I've always felt that a truly great relationship between God and humanity would entail no miracles, for such reasons as how the Babel Fish disproves his existence. For faith to be true faith, God should have no palpable mark upon the world. The thing is, in becoming a devout Catholic I've encountered a great deal of phenomenon that speak to the contrary; God has left an indelible mark upon the world that is there to be observed by anyone paying attention. This is of special interest to my theory of Metaphysical Consequence because it rules out the initial picture it paints of an essentially deist world.

Probably my favourite miracle is that of Lanciano, which I have seen personally. It has undergone rigorous scientific scrutiny, against which I have never encountered any viable explanation for it. Furthermore, it gives plausibility to the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. Not only do the blood types match (both are AB), but I've heard somewhere that the DNA is a match. When I looked at it, it really did seem to change colors before my eyes. Read about it here: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html .

Another favourite is that of St. Francis' rosebush, for which the only online documents I can find are travel promos. Basically, St. Francis of Assisi was overtaken by guilt for a mental temptation. He decided he had better punish himself, so he sprinted towards a particularly thorny rosebush and leaped onto it. When he landed on it, all the thorns disappeared. Not only is an offshoot of this bush still there (I've seen it), but recently botonists strived to classify it. Their conclusion was that it's an entirely new species of rose (not just a hybrid), to which it is the world's only specimen.

Another one I like is the Sun Miracle of Fatima, particularly because it was so widely documented at the time it happened. It was first reported by a Portugese state newspaper in 1917, which would naturally be antitheist in nature. Read about it here: http://www.fatima.org/miracle.html

Another one which is remarkably unheard of is the story behind the very well-known image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. A synopsis is here: http://www.cancunsteve.com/guadalupe.htm . But what that doesn't tell you from what I've seen is that the cloak on which the image appeared was made of cactus fibers deteriorate within forty years on account of exposure to oxygen, yet has lasted for more than four centuries. Furthermore, it doesn't really point out the obvious fact that these roses were picked five whole months out of season for them to be blooming, and they were actually Castillian roses not native to Mexico.

Anyone else have favourite miracles?

[AChimp]

Once I microwaved a frozen burrito for 30 seconds longer than it said to on the instructions, and it didn't explode. I am sure that there must have been a divine force holding that tortilla wrap together, because verily, the beef and bean contents were hot and bubbling.

[Sethomas]

What a scathing rebuttle. :shocked

[AChimp]

It was a valid contribution! >:

[Zero Signal]

It was a valid contribution! >:
Your first one ever on this board.

[sspadowsky]

I thought I read somewhere that the Shroud of Turin was recently proven to be a fraud? I could be wrong.....

[Zero Signal]

It is a fraud.

[AChimp]

It has been proven a fraud many times. Then supporters come forward with new evidence, then it is debunked again, and it goes on and on.

[Sethomas]

There was a Carbon-14 test done on it in the 80s that said it was made around the turn of the 14th century, which led to some pretty rediculous conspiracy theories involving Jacques de Molai. As a follow-up, though, research concluded that heating up cloth hundreds of degrees causing free-floating C14 to bond to the fibers, which means that carbon dating is completely irrelevant unless we know precisely how long it was exposed to heat. Since nobody was around with a stopwatch when the shroud was burnt in the 18th century, there's no possible way to get an accurate date.

The reason why I choose to believe in the authenticity of the Shroud is the great unlikeliness of casting a forgery. It's simply impossible that the image could have been painted, because no school of painting could come remotely close to depicting its detail when the known historical record of the shroud began. Furthermore, it wasn't discovered until the late twentieth century how to create 3-d negative imagery on a flat medium, and even still we can't do by hand it to the precision seen in the shroud. The only possible explanation for it is that it was wrapped around a body immediately after the body was heated up several hundred degrees, and this obviously didn't happen because the image portrays hair intact and there are no signs of burning. (Hence my main disproof of the Jacques de Molai theory.)

To consider the possibility that maybe someone crucified a fresh body just to create the fraud in medieval France, the main argument against that is that the pollens in the cloth are indigenous to Judea, and the wounds in the shroud image go through the wrist, whereas medieval art always depicts the nails through the palms.

[The_voice_of_reason]

Any thing can be a miracle if you really want it to be.


Like all those people who see Mary in a tortilla.

[Sethomas]

If that tortilla turned into human cardiac tissue, we'd be in the same ballpark.

[The_Rorschach]

There was this great song that had a chorus "I believe in miracles". . .

Its not a great song because its the best song ever, but its great because whenever I hear it I can't help but laugh. Anyway, that is my favourite miracle.

[Zero Signal]

Considering what was done to Jesus before and during his crucifixion, he would NOT have looked like the image on the Shroud, such as: a crown of thorns (thorns that are 3-4" long; not the small crap you find in your backyard), his beard pulled out which would cause major swelling, being beaten...the list goes on.

Also, the body CAN support crucifixion through the hands if given some support for the feet; which were so conveniently nailed to the cross as well. I has been proven that the body can support it. It is not to say that it was not ever done through the wrists, but the idea of the hands being not viable is a fallacy.

[Zero Signal]

Rorschach, you sexy thing.

[The_Rorschach]

"FEEL TEH LUB!" -The Lady's Man :love

[ScruU2wice]

there are miracles for every religon, i mean just type "Miracles of..." any religon into google and itll pop out numerous sites. I think people just don't feel like debunking many of these :(

But i dont think your right about true faith only being without any sign of god. If we had no signs of god overtime we would forget or refuse to believe He exists...

[Sethomas]

Zero, I know that nails would work perfectly well through both areas. You missed my point, which was that somebody growing up seeing the nails portrayed through the hands wouldn't have gone and made a fake shroud showing them go through the wrists.

From all sources I've seen, even those that say the Shroud is a hoax, they demonstrate that the image details severe beating and the wounds of the thorns. If you were expecting to see the thorns themselves on the image, that's counter-intuitive because Joseph of Arimathea would have removed the crown out of respect for the body. A dead body wouldn't appear swelled due to beating because the fluids would dissipate back into the body after death.

[AChimp]

I thought the Romans traditionally crucified people upside-down. :/

[Sethomas]

Only on special occasions. Like St. Peter.

[O71394658]

I think they used some sort of new dating for the Shroud, and it turned out to be accurate. Something to do with analyzing the threads...

[The_voice_of_reason]

http://www.atheistsforhumanrights.org/shroud.htm


I remember watching The Discovery Channel and they proved that the red in the shroud was ink, not blood.

[george]

mmiracle: someteen billion years ago, some event cause the universe to begin.

throughout that time span, every tiny little piece of the universe had to be moved just right for you to come into existence.

weird.

even without a god, the fact that I exist is a freakin miracle, and i suck.

[CaptainBubba]

The thing about miracles: You assume that your god did it.

Just because it happened and just because it can't currently be explained doesn't give any indication of the cause of the miracle. It could be because of Zeus. Its could be because of God. It could be because of a magical plastic model of a table with little googly eyes glued on to it that has a 100 ft. tail and speaks Portugese.

[O71394658]

That's where faith comes into play.

The main point being, something greater than you made it happen.

[Zero Signal]

"It means 'to insist on what is true as a social obligation.' This is what Atheists For Human Rights will do in our struggle to be religion-free." ---from atheistsforhumanrights.org

So, these atheists are going to insist THEIR ideology over the religious ones. How does that make them better humans? :rolleyes

And what the fuck struggle are they baggling about? If they are atheists, are they not already religion-free? They become what they hate and try to shove that down the masses throats. Yay for them! :rolleyes

[CaptainBubba]

That's where faith comes into play.

The main point being, something greater than you made it happen.

It still doesn't provide for any reason to believe anything in particular is the cause.

[george]

i think of god sort of as the well spring of all things that are aware in the universe, as well as his being the universe itself.

pretty much a creature nothing like us at all physically, with the "created in his imimage" sort of thing being our sentient nature.

and that our existence in defiance of all the rest of creation (we create, while the universe is always seeking entrophy) is more than miracle enough.

[O71394658]

It still doesn't provide for any reason to believe anything in particular is the cause.

Well, the absence of logic and scientific reasoning I think would count.

[CaptainBubba]

That just means we don't know what caused it. You can't infer anything from that with any degree of certainty besides the fact that we don't know what caused it.

This is your line of thought if you belive god is responsible for the apparent miracles:

Science and logic cannot explain them at this time ~ It must be my very specific explanation which I've concieved without the use of any scientific or logical thought.

[O71394658]

If you claim that I can't claim it was God, then you have to show me how it wasn't. Give me an example of a supernatural event which has been explained away...

[CaptainBubba]

If you claim that I can't claim it was God, then you have to show me how it wasn't.

How could you possibly have arrived at that statement? Seriously.

Ok I'm gonna try to explain this as simply as I can:

If something occurs which we can't explain with any modern science or logic that does not explain what caused it.

Your assumption that it must be your idea of god that did it is pulled from absolutely nowhere. There is no correlation. Its like making up a fiction story. It has no relavance to the real world. For all you know, since we don't know what caused it, it could be, as I said before, anything "supernatural".

As for your quoted statement: I'm saying it makes no sense to claim it was your idea of god because there is nothing to suggest that it was. The burden of proof lies with those who attempt to say something is. If you provide no reason for it to be your god then I can rightfully say that you have given no reason why it is your god that performed the miracle.

Give me an example of a supernatural event which has been explained away...

O.K. The sun rising, the ocean, the sky, the moon, living things, clouds, lightning, fire, etc. :rolleyes

[VinceZeb]

Yeah, just like that huge ass laser seen here (http://www.ligo-wa.caltech.edu/) that can't even PRODUCE EVIDENCE OR DETECT THAT GRAVITY EXISTS! I guess since science can't prove gravity's existance, gravity can't exist.

[CaptainBubba]

No, it can't detect gravitational waves. I can detect gravity at home with a scale. :rolleyes

Besides, gravity is a highly debated subject of the scientific world which still hasn't been even nearly explained to any sufficient extent to gaurentee any absolute conditions concerning it in the context of the whole universe. Much like light.

There is no law of gravitational waves. It is still extremely open to scientific attempts to prove/disprove it, as is every other facet of science.


I guess since science can't prove gravity's existance, gravity can't exist.

Even if science couldn't prove that it existed, gravity could still exist, just like Burantadego, the Mexican food god, could exist.

[O71394658]

Hahaha.

If something occurs which we can't explain with any modern science or logic that does not explain what caused it.

OK. But, the problem is, for me it does. Most things work in balance, in a set order. If something happens, like a miracle, in which things are thrown out of order, then as a religious person, I would most likely view it as "the hand of God" or whatever the fuck you want to call it. When a piece of the Eucharist turns into a piece of flesh when a priest holds it up at an atler and says that is is NOT the Body of Christ, I wouldn't see how the fuck else the "supernatural" can intervene. Looks like God to me. I believe it was a Work of God. That's faith. If you don't, fine. You're inclined to believe whatever you want.

[CaptainBubba]

The point is that there are infinite other ways to explain it if you choose to just decide on an answer that you're just going to make up.

You might as well say you did it.

[O71394658]

You see, bro, you say there are an infinite number of ways to explain it...then give me one. Explain it for me. What biological law that we don't yet know about has prevented the flesh, exposed to all the biological and chemical processes of the atmoshphere and the earth, from deteriorating. Why did a piece of bread turn into a human heart in front of hundreds of people? I'd love to hear one of your infinite explanations. :/

[CaptainBubba]

because Mareleshina, a bowl of mystical clam chowder from galaxy z flapped her wings 345609 times.















Get what I'm saying now?

If you don't understand what caused it then you should leave it at that. Making assumtions solves nothing, and though saying god did it may seem like a viable solution its just as useful as my explanation provided above.

[O71394658]

That's where we don't see eye-to-eye.

I DO most definitely fucking understand what caused it.

Because you don't believe in my explanation, you don't see my explanation as a viable option...or just another silly option out of INFINITE possiblities.

[CaptainBubba]

So your saying that your explanation is more legitamte than mine? Why? What evidence do you have supporting your explanation that I don't have for mine?

[Sethomas]

Vox, that website didn't refute any of the points I made. It doesn't make sense to say that all the blood was ink, because a biological examination of the blood was done in the first place confirming it to be human type A/B. Blood doesn't always dry the same color, it depends on one's level of iron. That article didn't even touch the issue of the negative imagery, which is a huge fucking deal. It says that the blood shouldn't have flowed downwards, which ignores the fact that it would have stopped flowing at all shortly after death. And still, that article claims it is the product of the 14th century. Look at any example of 14th century art and try to convince me that painting methodology existed to portray facial depth as seen in the image. Accurate portrayal of the face didn't come about until the late 1400s, and it took even longer to hit France.

Being such an extreme historical anomaly, saying that the Shroud is a fake requires no less faith than saying it's real.