Islam: Harmless Cab Drivers or PURE EVIL?

[Stabby]

I was just wondering what some of the opinons regarding the Islam religion were around here. Remeber, I'm not spouting "my country right or wrong" or any other patriotic bumper sticker bullshit I just want to express some opinions and hear others.

Some friends and I were discussing it at a bar the other night. I don't think it is EVIL but I have no respect for it. (I have no repsect for any religion either though.) But it seems after 9/11 we are supposed to be extra sensitive to Muslims. We say that the terrorists are just Muslim extremists and that most in the Muslim world don't support them. Well all I know is the most popular name for a kid in Pakistan after 9/11 was Osama. And the terrosists don't seem to be a fringe minority.

At least Christianity went through a renaissance, but it seems the Muslim world is still in the dark ages. They still stone women to death for stupid things like having sex outside of marriage. Why should I have to respect that and pretend that it's really 'a very peaceful religion'? All I know is I don't have much respect for ignorance, especially when it can get me killed.

It's very PC to try to be open minded about the Islamic faith, and there's nothing more politically correct than pretending religion is always a good thing. But underneath the 'War on Terror' it seems that we are also fighting a War on Islam.

Thoughts?

[ItalianStereotype]

Islam has always been a violent religion, more so than the others in my opinion. however, they too had their own "renaissance" of sorts; at one point, the Islamic world was far beyond the understanding of Christian Europe

[Big Papa Goat]

If you compare the chaos and barbarity of soceities in third world Muslim nations I'm pretty sure it will be better than the situations in West African nations. True there aren't any terrorists from impovershed African soceities yet, but at least in Muslim fundamentalist states there is some order, as opposed to the anarchy that has set into the rest of the third world.

[El Blanco]

You know what religion dominates most of Africa, right?

Oh, and Islam never had a Rennaisance (my degree is in history and I still can't spell it). That is exactly why they are stuck in the 16th Century, or at least, one of the major reasons. They started really well, but go complacent from lack of competition (same with the chinese Empires).

Because of the Rennaissance in Europe, secularism grew, as did nationalism. The states competed amongst each other and were forced to make innovations. When they turned these innovations on the Arab world (the South Pacific muslims were a little more open to change), it wasn't even a contest.

[Phil the anorak]

What I would say is that devotees of Islam are probably more serious about their religion than christians. We have a large islamic population in the UK and I'll bet there is more church attendance in islamic, sikh and hindu temples per head of population than anyone professing to be christian here.

In the countries where Islam is the predominant religion this probably means that we don't really understand why this is as we by and large don't live by the good book and as a result distrust anyone that does as some kind of real or potential religious maniac.

There is of course those that use Islam as a means of gaining power and not for the good of allah, just themselves.

[Jeanette X]

I do not think that Islam is any more inherently violent than Christianity. And plenty of people (at least on the internet, from what I have seen) have certainly NOT tiptoed around the issue of Islam. I have often found myself debating with Christians about whether or not Islam is about terrorism.
As for civilization, bear in mind that Baghdad was a center of culture, science, and commerce back when most of Europe was picking berries and shitting in the woods. The reasons that the Muslim world did not seem to progress the way Europe did is probably because of factors unrelated to the religion itself.
Women are often oppressed in Islam not because of Islam itself, but because of the Arab culture that predates it and got blended into the religion.
BTW, Islam is referred to as being a religion of peace because the word "Islam" translates to mean "Peace through submission to Allah."

[Big Papa Goat]

Islam, along with other theistic religions have less than a marginal influence in the most chaotic regions of Africa, those being Sub Saharan and Western Africa. And what did you mean by the innovations of nationalism not even being contested by the Arab world?

[ItalianStereotype]

Oh, and Islam never had a Rennaisance (my degree is in history and I still can't spell it).

they preserved and re-interpreted Hellenistic culture as well as expanded on science, astronomy, math, algebra, law, history, agriculture, architecture, and music. granted, it wasn't on the same level as the Europeans, but to say that they never had their own renaissance is inaccurate.

Because of the Rennaissance in Europe, secularism grew, as did nationalism. The states competed amongst each other and were forced to make innovations. When they turned these innovations on the Arab world (the South Pacific muslims were a little more open to change), it wasn't even a contest.

I don't buy into this. if it were true, how would you explain the Timurids, Tunis, Cyrenaica, the Mamlukes, Adeni, Omani, or the Koyunlan Caliphates?

[Abcdxxxx]

Someone mentioned Islamic followers being more devout. I've never heard of a non-devout follower of Islam the way one can casually dabble in some other religions. I'm sure it goes on, but it's so against the teachings that it wouldn't be as acceptable. It's not a great way to take a religion popularity poll.

Jeanette "Women are often oppressed in Islam not because of Islam itself, but because of the Arab culture that predates it and got blended into the religion. "

Say What?????? Arab culture is currently dominated by Islamic morals. Oppression towards women isn't a culturally Arabic trait in nature. The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women, as do some other religious scriptures depending on how you interpret them. Unfortunately, there is not much room within Islam for an acceptable alternative understanding of the text. Women most certainly ARE oppresed by Arab culture at the hands of Islamic Morals. The less Islamic the nation, the lessed oppressed the women.

[ScruU2wice]

Say What?????? Arab culture is currently dominated by Islamic morals. Oppression towards women isn't a culturally Arabic trait in nature. The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women, as do some other religious scriptures depending on how you interpret them. Unfortunately, there is not much room within Islam for an acceptable alternative understanding of the text. Women most certainly ARE oppresed by Arab culture at the hands of Islamic Morals. The less Islamic the nation, the lessed oppressed the women.

HAVE YOU READ THE KORAN!??! >: this thread fucking sickens me, theres i woman somewhere in trailer park getting beaten by her husband. Im going to pin that on christianity... I think your evil for trying to even imply that islam as a religon is evil. There were kids named osama before 9/11, too! First of all id love to know how many of you guys are muslim or arabic, id also love to know when i few thousand people of a few billion repersented a whole religon/ culture? Your a waste of human resources if you think muslims are just cab drivers. I have to admit i am really posting out of anger but ive heard soooooooooooooo much shit about the religon i follow after a few mad men attacked new york, and said it was in the name of 'islam'. i am personally offended by what you wrote Stabby

[El Blanco]

they preserved and re-interpreted Hellenistic culture as well as expanded on science, astronomy, math, algebra, law, history, agriculture, architecture, and music. granted, it wasn't on the same level as the Europeans, but to say that they never had their own renaissance is inaccurate.

They haven't had the cultural rebirth, which is exactly what a renaissance is. They haven't had that.

I don't buy into this. if it were true, how would you explain the Timurids, Tunis, Cyrenaica, the Mamlukes, Adeni, Omani, or the Koyunlan Caliphates?

All third string quarterbacks when compared to the Ottoman Empire. they were the undisputed champs of the ME.

Prior to the Reformation, most Europeans called themselves Christians. Some nobles used terms like Saxxon and Norman, but most official acts were done as Christians. Afterwards, you see Englishman, Spaniard, Surrender Monkey....I mean French. That happened because power was taken from Rome. It was no longer the only place that ruled.

[Sethomas]

Under all those veils and stuff, 'slim chicks are hot. Ergo, they can't be all bad.

[Jeanette X]

The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women, as do some other religious scriptures depending on how you interpret them. Unfortunately, there is not much room within Islam for an acceptable alternative understanding of the text.
And the specific Koran verses are...? :blah

BTW, need I mention that the Bible "suffer no woman to teach" rather clearly and unambigously?

[ItalianStereotype]

They haven't had the cultural rebirth, which is exactly what a renaissance is. They haven't had that.

I would say that the Turks in 1453 were a hell of a lot different than the Turks under Suleyman.

All third string quarterbacks when compared to the Ottoman Empire. they were the undisputed champs of the ME.

yes, thank you, I know :rolleyes but it was not always so.

the point that I was trying to make was that these were all powerful Muslim nations (not all at the same time) that (more or less) prospered without Christian intervention. the Timurids and the Mamlukes fell before the European Renaissance even reached its zenith, but they were richly cultured, militarily strong countries. basically what I'm saying is this, the Christian Renaissance didn't advance Muslim culture the way that you are thinking.


Prior to the Reformation, most Europeans called themselves Christians. Some nobles used terms like Saxxon and Norman, but most official acts were done as Christians. Afterwards, you see Englishman, Spaniard, Surrender Monkey....I mean French. That happened because power was taken from Rome. It was no longer the only place that ruled.

well, I guess it was mostly hot Christian on Christian action before the Reformation because, apart from the Crusades, all their attention was focused on Europe. things weren't as simple as "Christian" instead of "Englishman" or "Castillian."

[The_Rorschach]

I'm sure you don't care, but just to clear the waters a bit. . .

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God" (I Cor 11:3). See God is establishing a heirarchy here, a chain of command so to speak, (by the way, John 3:16, the word World is translated badly, in the greek it is signifying of a world order, a chain of command, and what God is saying is that He loved the world He created, and sacrificed His Son in order to re-establish that order, but I disgress). That order, to put things simply, is God, Christ, man, woman, child. Submission, in this sense, is not to be taken as equalitive to inferiority, if it was, Christ and the Holy Spirit would be inferior to God the Father.

What Paul, or Saul if you prefer, is trying to assert is that women are not to "usurp authority over the man." Let it be understood that women are not forbidden the position of teaching. She is commanded to teach children and other women (Titus 1:3-5; I Tim. 5:14). Arguably, albeit, the foremost judge the Israelites ever had was Ruth, and she was a woman. This passage by Paul, or Saul, is meant to be taken as the default, with the understanding implied that God would raise those whom He will, regardless of gender, or race for that matter, though I do believe creed is somewhat involved.

You can take the verse to be mysogenistic by removing the context, but it really isn't :/

[ScruU2wice]

in Islam the order is God over everything. We believe its blasphemy to consider Jesus as the son of God or associate any human as son or daughter or any relation to God. I dont have any quotes to back all that stuff up but it's what I read in sunday school as a kid

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - I actually do have some Arabic blood in me. I'm not sure you understood this thread... though I agree the cab driver reference lacked some finesse.


[quote]
And the specific Koran verses are...? :blah

BTW, need I mention that the Bible "suffer no woman to teach" rather clearly and unambigously?

Okay Jeanette - You really believe being a misgonyst is an Arabic trait? Holy shit, do you realize how much more offensive that is then just saying "Islam oppresses women" ? You really don't do you.

BTW, I already said most every religions scriptures have misogynistic sections. Sadly the Muslim religion refuses to modernize their intepretation of these sections the way other religion have. I said that already. You comprehended it I hope?

[Abcdxxxx]

Anyone wanna check the translation on these quotes to make sure they're legit representations? Otherwise, there's hundreds more like 'em.

An-Nisa 4: 34 "As to those women On whose part ye fear disloyalty andÂ*ill -conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share beds, (andÂ*Last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek notÂ*against them means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, Great (aboveÂ*you all)"Â*

Al - Baqara 2:Â* 222 "They questioned thee (O Mohammad) concerning menstruation, Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not unto themÂ* till they are cleansed."

Al - Baqara 2: 228 "Men, your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage any way you want."Â*


33: 32-33 "O ye wives of the prophet! Ye are not like any other women.Â*If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech lest he inÂ*whose heart is a disease aspire to you, but utter customary speech AndÂ*stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment ofÂ*the time of ignorance. Be regular in prayer, & pay the poor due, 7Â*obey Allah & His messengerÂ*

[ScruU2wice]

The Koran supports the second class treatment of Women

I dont care what type of blood you have in you, you can't tell me that was a justified... The koran in no way justifies the second hand treatment of any people. It says that women should be obedient to their husbands and Husbands should be respectful of their wives.

I told you i did write my first post in a furios rage and didnt read all the posts. You guys also forget that the islamic faith isn't as old as the the other religons you compare it to. But you can't tell me that christianity never perscuted women for adultry, even in times up to the colonization of america.

I have to admit i wouldn't be this passionate hadn't i been a muslim but still i think alot of the stuff in this thread i don't like and woulda been against no matter what religon...

[ScruU2wice]

Al - Baqara 2: 222 "They questioned thee (O Mohammad) concerning menstruation, Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not unto them till they are cleansed."

i have read this passage and it refers to the practice of the five daily prayers and the recitation of the koran, which is not suppose to be done by women during that time

but what really sickens me about this thred is the title. "PURE EVIL?" WTF is that suppose to be a joke? are the few billion people who follow this religon minions of satan? and the fact that we shudn't care about the muslim religon or bother to be sensitive about it because the people in it are violent... How much exactly did you drink stabby?

[Drew Katsikas]

Fuck all of you. Stop trying to interpert religous texts. It's worthless. You can prove anything with any fucking Bible, and disprove it with a different passage. Through mistranslations, corrupt popes/whatever muslim leaders are called, and lost texts and whatnot, scripts are extremley ambiguous. You can just as easily prove that the Bible supports war as you can say it doesn't condone it. It's ridiculous, and frankly, you all sound like idiots bickering over it.

[The_Rorschach]

How ironic. . . ;)

You've made a theory, that anything can be proven or disproven with the Bible. I'd like to take you up on. Why not help Jeanette in her stance on this issue, she could use it from one as educated and eloquent as yourself.

[kellychaos]

in Islam the order is God over everything. We believe its blasphemy to consider Jesus as the son of God or associate any human as son or daughter or any relation to God. I dont have any quotes to back all that stuff up but it's what I read in sunday school as a kid

I've read that it was at the council "Council Of Nicea" that Jesus was determined to be "the Son of God", i.e. deified, and that all contrasting gospels that shown him in a more human light were edited out to support Constantine's agenda. Of course, I've had people on the board who've apposed me on this point.

[Drew Katsikas]

I'm not so well versed in The Koran that I can take sides in this argument. But here's an example.

With Onan, God orders him to impregnate his dead brother's wife, as part of Jewish law. Onan doesn't dig this, so he busts all over the floor instead, and gets struck down by the big man, becuase he doesn't follow His law.
Later, Jesus says this law was bad. That God only allowed stuff like that and divorce because the Jews were sinful people and he had to make them happy.

Or, in Paul's letters, he clearly states that women are inferior to men multiple times. If you don't believe me, just skim through his letters. However, Christians virtually ignore these passages now, or just say that he didn't really mean it, or the Bible should be interperted as a whole, and don't worry about that passage.

[Abcdxxxx]

Okay wait. Holding up equally fucked up text from another religion doesn't do anything to disprove the existance of these words in the Koran. Start another thread for bible battles.

The Koran can only fairly be singled out because the majority of it's followers still uphold it's antiquated and harmful laws towards women in a way that's unparralelled by other religions - no matter what the Christian bible says or whatever... the fact is, women have it good under a Judeo-Christian socierty in comparison. If Judeo-Christian countries were rampant with female slavery, etc. and devout institutionalized religion, then yeah I'd blame a Judeo-Christian bible too. If it's not the Koran, then what's your theory? All the sand and hot climates makes men do abusive things towards women? What does the Koran say to stop such treatment? There are ONLY four or five tracts in the Koran TOTAL that speak to equality and hundreds that could be misconstrued as encouragement to abuse women.

[ScruU2wice]

so your saying that you should read the koran in passages and out of context like you did up there, abcdxxx? instead maybe you should think of it as a whole book not just a collection of passages that you can pluck out interpert as you will >:

idk if your trying to say the problem is with the people who interpert the koran, or what. but if you sensibly think it out and read the passages as a whole then you'll that people incorrectly twist the meaning of the koran to justify there actions.

As for the fact of respect of women, I learned to respect women more from islam then life in america where the media shows nothing but women used as objects of sexuallity. same goes for violence; watching some cartoons and other shows make violence seem like the only answer in certain situations.

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - those words are disturbing in any context...otherwise, I would agree. What context is there to believe these words are being twisted?

If you were lucky enough to grow up with progressive Islamic values towards women, then you should take your love and respect for women back to your mosque and demand they alter their teachings to reflect a modern society.

You can't equate treating women as second class citizens, lower beings, or even as slave labor in some cases, with treating women as sex objects. Believe me, the western world treats women like shit, but it's no comparison.

[ScruU2wice]

then you should take your love and respect for women back to your mosque and demand they alter their teachings to reflect a modern society.

pft... in a perfect world :rolleyes
BTW my mosque is where i learned it.

I haven't studied all of the quotes you cited but as i posted before the one about menstration has nothing to do with man over women. Its about women not prayin or reading koran while they are menstrating, i don't know why you put that in there, abcdxxxx.

regardless of that Islam in general cannot be blamed for the actions of men in saudia arabia and other islamic countries. Calling Islam "PURE EVIL" is just being ignorant and stereotyping everyone in an extremely large group. As a matter of a fact in some parts of pakistan its common for women to hit their husbands from what my father tells me, so i guess there's all kinds...

[Stabby]

but what really sickens me about this thred is the title. "PURE EVIL?" WTF is that suppose to be a joke? are the few billion people who follow this religon minions of satan? and the fact that we shudn't care about the muslim religon or bother to be sensitive about it because the people in it are violent... How much exactly did you drink stabby?

The thread title is a JOKE. It was just to get people to read it. Relax. I remind you this forum is named i-MOCKERY. I'm sure there are plenty of good Pokemon forums you can join if you don't want to read anything offensive. So don't get so hung up on the title.



http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=26

Here's some interesting fugures showing the public's perception of Islam being a violent religion has gone up significantly. The public's view on whether Islam encourages violence has almost doubled. And 24% of the public believes that all Muslims are anti-American.

Bush said during the 2000 campaign that he didn't believe one could get into heaven if not a Christian. Anyone think that next to the oil and the setteling of old scores or whatever, that this war seems like it might be a clash of civilzations? Christian vs. Islam?

[ScruU2wice]

I'm sure there are plenty of good Pokemon forums you can join if you don't want to read anything offensive.

Again, in a perfect world.

i really dont ever get jokes. ever... :(

i really can't do anything about all those people thinking islam is a violent religon, but i can tell you not everyone of us have a vest full of anthrax or bombs in our shoes. Islam is also not a religon based on beating women sensless and slave labor.

Though when i visited mekkah, i was told that women did have to cover themselves or they'd be heckeled at and be threatened. However, i was also told that men couldn't wear shorts or other things that revieled there legs or suffer the same consiquences. but that's what i was told :/

Whatever the koran says about the treatment of women should be governed by some sorts of common sense. just like the bible's views on slavery aren't followed literally

[Jeanette X]

BTW, I already said most every religions scriptures have misogynistic sections. Sadly the Muslim religion refuses to modernize their intepretation of these sections the way other religion have. I said that already. You comprehended it I hope?
So why doesn't the Muslim religion modernize? Whats your theory?

Okay Jeanette - You really believe being a misgonyst is an Arabic trait? Holy shit, do you realize how much more offensive that is then just saying "Islam oppresses women" ? You really don't do you.
No no no. *sigh* I don't mean that. Being misogynist is a western trait too. I'm saying that Islam isn't what causes misogyny in the Arab world, the same way that Christianity isn't what caused the misogyny that led to The Burning Times.

Al - Baqara 2: 222 "They questioned thee (O Mohammad) concerning menstruation, Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not unto them till they are cleansed."

So what? Plenty of people are put off by the idea of sex during menstruation. I believe that the OT mentions it as being forbidden.

If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire to you, but utter customary speech And stay in your houses
I don't understand this passage.

Al - Baqara 2: 228 "Men, your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage any way you want."
According to dictionary.com, tillage is cultivation of land, or land that has been tilled. How should this be interpreted?

Yes, the beating thing is disconcerting, but I found a Muslim apologetics site explaining it. If I can just dig up the url...

[Perndog]

Apologetics are just people who spend their lives setting up new spurious justifications for shitty premises after each one gets knocked down.

[El Blanco]

Scru, no offense, but someone sporting the Bros. MacMannus in his avatar shouldn't get so uppity about people making a joke about his religion being violent.

[Big Papa Goat]

Here's some interesting fugures showing the public's perception of Islam being a violent religion has gone up significantly. The public's view on whether Islam encourages violence has almost doubled. And 24% of the public believes that all Muslims are anti-American.
What does this prove besides Americans are getting dumber by the minute? And who didn't know that already?

[VinceZeb]

Yeah, Goat, Americans are getting stupider by the minute. Where the fuck would they pick up on Islam being violent? I mean, we see all those Buddhists bombing the U.N building. And how about those damn Hindi that flew the planes into the Trade Towers? And all those Jews that wouldn't let the girls out of the burning school because they didn't have their little beanie caps on. We know how evil those Jews are, huh?

I don't see where ANYONE could get the notion that Islam may have a bit of a rough streak in it. My God, I just don't see it!

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - How else do you explain the poor treatment of women in Islamic states? Even Muslim's cite the Koran for the guidelines they put on women. Can you really say it's a coincedence?

The Koran calls menstruation an ILLNESS! According to the Koran, every woman with the ability to give birth becomes ILL on a monthly basis. Meaning a functioning woman is viewed in poor health, diseased, and sick...and in ancient times, an illness meant evil. I'll agree, parts of the Koran are taken out of context - not by me, but by the followers of Islam who use these words to oppress women....and the fact is, they do. As a religious duty. In parts of the world a woman is stoned for going out in public uncovered. It's not even the extremist act we'd like to think it should be. Not every Muslim beats and rapes their women.... but it's scary knowing that in places where these crimes are rampant and socially acceptable, it's the Islamic scriptures themselves that act as a guide, and it's the Koran they turn to when defending their actions.

Calling a woman "tillage" refers to them as property. Land is something you own. Look, put the Koranic debates aside, and realize that this stuff is being used to hurt women, even if it was never intended to.

[Jeanette X]

Well I for one don't exactly feel well when I get my period. Menstrual cramps and diarahea. :(

Vince apparently is not aware of the Buddhists extremists commiting acts of violence against Christians in Sri Lanka, nor of Hindus (not Hindis, you idiot) killing Muslims in Gujarat, nor of the rape of Indian-occupied Kashmir, nor of the human rights violations in Palestine.
Fucking moron.

[ScruU2wice]

How else do you explain the poor treatment of women in Islamic states? Even Muslim's cite the Koran for the guidelines they put on women. Can you really say it's a coincedence?


Which islamic states? i have aunts, cousins and nieces in pakistan, saudia arabia, and turkey. they're not being beaten or horribly persectued. The women in my family wouldn't want to where spaghetti straps or have premerital sex, even if it was allowed. And i know there are women in pakistan that have premerital sex that dont get stoned to death or persectued. about citing lines from the koran, people twist the meaning of all holy books to fit their purposes, that can't be the fault of islam in general

[Abcdxxxx]

jeanette - the supposed human rights violations against muslims in Israel aren't about religious oppression caused by religious teachings.

so a man has a right to treat you like a lesser human being because you feel shitty during your monthly cycle? or because your body naturally bleeds? good lord.

scru - maybe you're just not aware of all the misogyny we're talking about? also - how the hell do you know what the women in your family really want? devout islam doesn't allow them the freedom to make a choice without reprecusions, and you know it. it's a religion that outright rejects the notion of changing with the times or accepting societal progress. it rejects the rights of others to follow their own beliefs that contradict the koran. it's not that the religion itself is bad, or evil or wrong, it's the methods in which it's practiced that are the problem.

[Anonymous]

BTW, I already said most every religions scriptures have misogynistic sections. Sadly the Muslim religion refuses to modernize their intepretation of these sections the way other religion have. I said that already. You comprehended it I hope?
So why doesn't the Muslim religion modernize? Whats your theory?

I'm not a Muslim, but I do have a couple weeks of Middle Eastern Studies under my belt.:) Plus, I never post in this board, so I'll give it a shot:

It's my understanding that Muslims believe that the koran (quran?) represents the final word of god, as documented by Mohammad, the final prophet. They also believe that Christians, Jews, etc. have recieved the word as well, but didn't get it on paper fast enough, and thus the word was corrupted a little bit.

Perhaps they don't want to modernize because they feel it would be marring the word of god by changing the koran in any way.

[ScruU2wice]

how the hell do you know what the women in your family really want?

well it turns out some of my cousins and aunts come and visit me in chicago, and they tell me that theyd never where the type of clothes they see here because they think it looks slutty. and when i visit them in pakistan they talk about how they know people that have sex before there married and they think its dead wrong.

My mom has been in america for 20 some years and she doesnt wear sleevless shirts because she believes it shows too much skin. My cousins are less conservative they dont have a problem with wearing saris which show there midrifs. Then there are people here and in canada who want to wear burqas and cover there faces.

maybe you're just not aware of all the misogyny we're talking about?

Maybe your right, but all the people i talk to think that all muslim countries are political prisons for woman. and all women are forced to be muslims and they are forced to dress in long black robes and expose none of themselves. Im not saying that the treatment of women like this is non existent, but this is absolutely in no way the majority.


edit: "quran" is the way i learned how to spell it but i didnt want people to get confused. I think muslims are hesitant to modernize is because the koran was already mis interperted (due to punctation and what not) and it led to the creation of the religon of qadiyanism (sp?) which believes that mohammad pbuh was not the last prophet. Muslims do not believe in this religon and consider them blasphemers. thanx for bringing that up Dr. boogie

[Jeanette X]

Perhaps they don't want to modernize because they feel it would be marring the word of god by changing the koran in any way.
Then no Christian country would ever modernize because many Christians believe the Bible to be infalliable.

so a man has a right to treat you like a lesser human being because you feel shitty during your monthly cycle? or because your body naturally bleeds?
Did I say that? Did I?! >: Fuck no! People who know me well avoid me when I'm on the rag, because I have bad mood swings and tend to want to be left alone anway. All it said was to let women alone, not treat them poorly.

[Abcdxxxx]

so what? women are still being oppressed by islamic nations using the muslim religion as a pretext.

female genital mutilation. stonings. denying women education, and the right to use higher degrees. honor killings, forced marriages. imposed servitude. home imprisonment. rape punishment. restricted movement. humiliation, and disfiguration.

you mentioned pakistan where the laws of qisas and diyat give men the cover to commit hundreds of honor killings every year, without reprecussion. women are often treated as second class citizens due to the zina law, passed in 1979. women are supposed to have equal rights there, but these loopholes are granted to muslims, in adherence with islamic law. these crimes aren't being commited by arabs, they're being commited by islamic arabs. if one were to put any value on united nations studies, their claim is that 50 % of women in pakistan are abused, and 99% are mentally or verbally abused. even assumng these numbers are inflated, it's still obviously a rampant problem.

jeanette - i'm sorry you're difficult during your period, but how is that relevant?

[ScruU2wice]

so what? women are still being oppressed by islamic nations using the muslim religion as a pretext.

female genital mutilation. stonings. denying women education, and the right to use higher degrees. honor killings, forced marriages. imposed servitude. home imprisonment. rape punishment. restricted movement. humiliation, and disfiguration.


ok so i admit these things are happening in islamic countries and people are doing it in the name of the islam, but how can islam stop them with out jepordizing its own identity? We believe what is in the koran is the word of god and changing the word of god is blasphemy. IF the koran is changed to it will spark chaos in the islamic world. I can't change how people interpret the koran or other islamic texts and i'm not willing to go against god to change his words. Common sense has to play a certain role in all of this and how can you blame islam for people lacking common sense.

if one were to put any value on united nations studies, their claim is that 50 % of women in pakistan are abused, and 99% are mentally or verbally abused

i think if everyone on the world was surveyed 99% of the people would say that they have been verbally abused. You know if its so hard to find al-qaeda cells in pakistan, how can you accurately get a demographic of women that are abused in pakistan? Plus if women are so gagged and silenced how can they openly take a survey?

[Abcdxxxx]

Common sense? It's Shari'a law imposed and defended by Islam.

Please don't belittle the horror of honor killings by saying these people merely lack common sense.

It's bad enough that you're sitting in the United States writing this all off because your aunts and cousins are happy. There are Islamic women who aren't happy. There are girls in Iran who DO want to wear spaghetti straps, and dress like Britney Spears. Do you think they should be beaten for it?

[ScruU2wice]

and im admitting that people are mistreated, but your making it sound like every man in islam is born to rape a women. and every women is getting raped this very second. im not saying that these travesties don't exist, but your saying to change all of islam as opposed to stopping the people who do these things. what would be your solution to this, abcdxxxx? what would you do if you were in my seat? women are being horribly treated, so i should stop what im doing change my whole religon instead of stopping the people who are commiting these acts

Shari'a law was not sent down by God. people interperted it and made all these horrible laws. just because it bosts the name of islam doesnt mean that all muslims believe it and it embodies the essence of the religon...

[Abcdxxxx]

well a good start would be to stop trying to downplay it.

judaism and christianity have managed to grow out of stoning people. why do you think changing the part of islam that encourages mistreatment of women is going to comprimise the beauty and integrity of the religion you practice?

shari'a law is growing in popularity but the primary source for islamic law is still the koran.... which contains language that is being used to mistreat women amongst others on a daily basis.

[Big Papa Goat]

I don't think Islam is inheritly more violent, but they didn't ever have the secular Renaissance that the West had. Chirstianity, or more specifically Europe grew out of their religiously inspired violence and opression because of the increased secularism in government and daily affairs. Islam has never been a paticularly violent religion, but their mistreatment of women and general fundamentalism (in theocratic Islamic states) does show how their religion and soceity has failed to progress as much as Western Christian civilization has.

And speaking of violence and opression of women, what about witch hunts? Didn't Germany have around 100 000 women killed for witchcraft in some century? And the Spanish Inquisition killed more than a few people. And lets not forget the Crusades, where many were killed, enslaved or burned out of house and home in the name of Christianity.

Considering when the witch hunts took place, perhaps it was the 18th century Enlightenment rather than the Renaissance that really secularized and civilized the West. And of course the Islamic world hasn't had any Enlightenment era.


In conclusion- Secularism hasn't set in for Islamic nations yet. If secularism hadn't set in for the West, we'd be just as bad, or worse. Therefore, too much religion is bad, whether it is Islam, Buddhism, Christianity or whatnot. The question is, why hasn't the Islamic world secularized?

[VinceZeb]

Now Jeanette, I know you are a woman so that makes you irrational and emotional in your responses, but we are not talking about what other religions do. Americans don't see that on their TVs. We are talking about the American public's perception of Islam. People like like Americans should think of Islam like they would Christanity or any other religion when in fact our country has been attacked by MUSLIMS.

So please, don't try to think of yourself as more scholarly than I. The time you do that takes away from the time you should be washing and ironing.

[Blue]

Oppression of women there.. IS vince MUSLIM :confused

Using the women oppression thing is crap. Just as many christians beat there wives as muslims. I hate all religion in general. Esp those fucks who hand you shit on the street and scream at you. (sorry for side tracking.)

[VinceZeb]

Hating religion makes you smrt.

[mburbank]

Is THAT what made you so smrt? At least that's what people like like americans is saying when MUSLIMS attacked us now. So don't think you is more scholarly than I when that takes valuable time away from you playing X-box and Sleeping.

[O71394658]

I hate when people associate small groups of people with entire religions.

Religion isn't bad. It's just that some people who practice them may be. Small groups of Islamic terrorists (referring to terrorist groups today) or a Spanish king (referring to the Spanish Inquisition -though I'm not too bright on the subject, I believe it was through the actions of a king, not the Church itself). If studied in depth enough and with an open mind, all religions promote peace and unity. If you're looking for quotes to promote rascism, sexism, jihad, or violence, then you could definitely find them. Too bad they don't read in depth enough to find out that they take quotes out of context- or later passages negate those quotes entirely (i.e.- in the case of Jesus telling the Apostles to forget the old laws and codes). If you have a specific agenda, and you want religion to support it, it won't be hard to do. The hardest part is actually reading and understanding everything that it says.

[Anagram]

If you can find people who are desperate enough, and you have a charismatic enough leader, you can always find people to support your particular branch of extremism. That goes for all religions.

[Abcdxxxx]

When did the word extremist become synonomous with "small groups of people that aren't truly representative of a majority opinions" ? Anyone want to go dig up the number of women this "small group of extremists" are oppressing ? How many girls were mutilated by cliterecomys this year? We're talking about more then a few thousand nutcake extremists here. Entire nations are imposing these restrictions on their populations. Entire towns are under shari'a laws.

Please don't downplay this. Let's assume for a change that we're not all a bunch of simpletons here. Religion isn't all bad. Muslim's aren't all bad. Not every Muslim woman is set to be stoned. Now we're past that. Stop making apologies or downgrading the importance of this simply because you'd like to appear compassionate and understanding.

These crimes exist under an Islamic religious structure that protects the right to commit violent midevil acts.

[Abcdxxxx]

Just as many christians beat there wives as muslims.

OK, so it's tied even on the wife beating...h'bout the slavery, stoning, forced nuptials, mutilation, and honor killings?

How many Priests or Archbishops defend these crimes in the (international) court of law as a religious freedom?

[Anagram]

What I'm trying to say is that because bad things happen in the name of Islam doesn't mean that Islam is evil, Muslims are satanic death crusaders and the Qu'ran is Medieval hate mail.

There's a lot of barbaric stuff going on in the Middle East and beyond, but the answer isn't to "bomb their countries, kill their leaders and convert them all to Christianity". I'm not some grea liberal or moderate, I just try to apply a bit of common sense to everything.

[Blue]

h'bout the slavery
Wasnt america built like this? Nearly every religious group is just interested in one thing you have and it isn't faith.

[ScruU2wice]

ok im not saying we should downplay any of this stuff, abcdxxx. And if i did in my other posts im sorry. but your other posts made it sound like the whole muslim world were wife beaters and oppressed women. And sadly ive met people who think this is the case

The solution is with the people and not changing the words of the koran. Changing the words of the koran is absolutely not an option... Changing the words of the Koran would be considered probably one of the highest degrees of blasphemy. So no matter what you say or bomb or destroy the word of the koran should not and will not be changed.

some of the stuff that happens in these places are horrible, i admit. Judy hearing about it makes me want to hit some one. If i could change the way people interpert the koran i would. But the reality of the matter is that these countries are poorly governed. Any country with a well structured government like saudia arabia doesn't have stonings and other types of laws that sentence women to death for adultry and such things. Part of the problem you have to admit is the governing of these countries...

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - "Any country with a well structured government like saudia arabia doesn't have stonings and other types of laws that sentence women to death for adultry and such things"

Was this a typo? Saudi Arabia is one of the worst offendors.

[ScruU2wice]

ive heard of no women being stoned to death or killed in saudia arabia for pre-marital sex or adultry. I haven't heard of any but if you can cite some, i wil admit im wrong. But i was aiming more toward the countries in africa who stone women to death.

[kahljorn]

"How many Priests or Archbishops defend these crimes in the (international) court of law as a religious freedom?"

Only the one's who touch small children :O

Besides, stoning people and quartering them for not paying their taxes is all "Righteous" there. It's in the laws, a completely different Government, you can't judge them by our standards.

Notice how many seem to think America is evil as well. This is not necessarily about "Government", but over there their Religion and Government are basically the same thing.

[Abcdxxxx]

Do the research yourself. Don't take my word for it. Women are second class citizens in Saudi Arabia.

They are nearly always prohibited from working, they can't go out in public without wearing an abayya head to toe cloak, they can't travel without a male chaperone, and they're not allowed to drive. The muttawa'in (religious police) harrass them constantly. Unmarried women are the ward of their fathers, married women are the ward of their husbands. and a widowed woman is the ward of her sons. Women can't go to school, get an exit visa, or be admitted to a hospital without permission from that gaurdian. They're segregated in public to "family-only" areas or female restricted stores. A court room testimny from a woman is treated as inferior to a man's. Women make up half the student population, yet they're restricted from studying engineering, law or journalism. Yes, women convicted of adultry can be sentenced to stonings.

This isn't something made up by people who dislike religion or Muslims. These laws effect ALL Saudi women. ALL of them. If it's Mecca that's twisting and misrepresenting the Islamic religion, then that's a problem right? Where at the fatwas prohibiting the religious sanctions of this stuff?

[ScruU2wice]

so if we were to lift all these policies darastically from saudia arabia and change everything to suit what you think is fair, would they be any better? that would basically be like destroying a country/ countries. I have no problem with small changes a lil bit. you haven't really made any suggestions beside change the words of the koran which would do way more harm then good.

btw when i went to mecca, woman did not need chaperons... :/

[Abcdxxxx]

Okay well you seem to have gone from having no knowledge of these things, to thinking they just aren't happening....

...Plus you think if women had equal rights it would "destroy a country/countries". Way to represent Islam.

You can't change the Koran, but you can change the way it's practiced and recognize the dangers of some of the language just as every other major religion has. I hope you see the difference.

[Skulhedface]

Unfortunately, while some of the people may be smart, the whole is incredibly stupid. No matter how hard you try not to stereotype, it will happen. Anyone with half a brain knows that there are just as many bad Christians as there are bad Muslims or whathaveyou, and we are just as guilty of it as they are. Whereas the Iraqis tend to see us as the Devil, we see them all as terrorists.

Bah... religion complicates things. That's why I believe it's better to just have morals and live them yourself than follow some belief structure and force it on everyone else.

[ScruU2wice]

Okay well you seem to have gone from having no knowledge of these things, to thinking they just aren't happening....
i admitted that theses things were happening and they are horrible. What else should i say that im an evil human being for not personally changing everyones interpertation of the koran, or beating the crap out of all men who hit women. Sure that would be a wonderful thing, just find a way to make it feasible

...Plus you think if women had equal rights it would "destroy a country/countries". Way to represent Islam.
I said if you dirastically change the way the countries laws it will be bad. If in america we dramactically changed the constitution everything would go in to chaos, changin anythign too fast is a bad move...

You can't change the Koran, but you can change the way it's practiced and recognize the dangers of some of the language just as every other major religion has. I hope you see the difference.
I do practice the koran in unradical manner, but i do still practice the religon. How are muslims in america, canada, britan, and other countries practicing islam without beating their wives and harrasing women?

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - " How are muslims in america, canada, britan, and other countries practicing islam without beating their wives and harrasing women?"

Under western laws with a basis in Judeo-Christian "values". Under a more liberal and modernized atmosphere where Muslims use the Koran on a personal basis, rather then the rule of the land. If you commit an honor killing here, you go to jail. That's how.

[ScruU2wice]

but they still practice the fundamental of islam, thats what i mean to say. Islam doesn't run on the oppression of women. I know some other countries twist the words of the koran and oppress women, but its not necessary to opress women in islam nor is it right. I can't do anything to stop the people in africa and whatever other nations you say treat women badly, besides practicing islam in a non-radical manner, which i do. I still conduct my life by the what the koran says and i haven't broken any laws hear...

[Abcdxxxx]

Africa? You wish we were just talking about Africa.

Are you saying that you practice true Islam here in the States, while people are twisting things in Mecca of all places?

I'll ask it again - If the mistreatment of women within the Muslim community *worldwide* has nothing to do with the Koran, or the religion itself, then how can you explain why the mistreatment is so prevelant in these societies?

[ScruU2wice]

Africa? You wish we were just talking about Africa.
i wish i wasn't talking about any country :(

Are you saying that you practice true Islam here in the States, while people are twisting things in Mecca of all places?


im saying that islam is being practiced here, without harrassment of women. so it is possible to practice islam without the mistreatment of women


I'll ask it again - If the mistreatment of women within the Muslim community *worldwide* has nothing to do with the Koran, or the religion itself, then how can you explain why the mistreatment is so prevelant in these societies?
the bible doesn't condone pre-marital sex but many christians have sex before there married anyways... its the society that makes norms, and there societies evolved that way and i admit to us it seems primitive but thats the way they did. we can't judge societies without there perspective. That doesn't make there actions right, it's just we dont see it the way they do and they dont see it the way we do.

[Abcdxxxx]

i wish i wasn't talking about any country :(

Agreed.

im saying that islam is being practiced here, without harrassment of women. so it is possible to practice islam without the mistreatment of women

Well, right. Which means there's no excuse for it.

its the society that makes norms, and there societies evolved that way and i admit to us it seems primitive but thats the way they did. we can't judge societies without there perspective. That doesn't make there actions right, it's just we dont see it the way they do and they dont see it the way we do.

...But here you are trying to excuse it again. Obviously they think what they're doing is right - but that doesn't make it okay. We're not talking about a difference of tradition, we're talking about cultural evolution, and criminal acts on a specific gender.

You just got done saying one could practice Islam without all the misogyny.... and if that's the case then they should. Not because my values insist on it, but because the Muslim world isn't a seperatist island anymore. There *have* beena few examples of honor killings in the United States. In one instance, the Suadi government even attempted to step in and demand Shari'a law be applied to the case.

[Blue]

Just shut the fuck up femnazi >:

[Anonymous]

Perhaps they don't want to modernize because they feel it would be marring the word of god by changing the koran in any way.
Then no Christian country would ever modernize because many Christians believe the Bible to be infalliable.

Christians and Muslims are different. Different strokes for different folks, and all. Just because they believe that they shouldn't modernize doesn't automatically mean that Christians believe the same thing.


Edit: The bottom line for me is that it isn't right to single out a religion as being wrong or evil because of how some of its followers choose to interpret its dogma.

[imported_Hollycaust]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1880000/images/_1881865_300flagburn_afp.jpg

[ScruU2wice]

Just shut the fuck up femnazi >:

you can say whatever the fuck you want im not gonna roll over and say that everything in my religon is wrong and that im wrong for being a part of it. I've repeated over and over again i dont support what is happening to these women, but your blaming islam as a general for what a few people are doing. the koran like all holy books is being twisted around to make peoples points. I interpert things different then you and the same for you. the Bible is interperted differently by different poeple. Calling me a femnazi is just your way of wasting peoples times and vain attempt to be funny >:

edit: hollycaust, if you dont know alotta people all over the world hate america. i know christians and muslims in pakistan that think america is a disease on the world and we argue for hours about it, but what they see from the outside in is different from what we see from the inside out. its the culture not the religon.

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - Um. They were calling ME a feminazi for defending women.

Look, nobody wants you to say you're wrong for practicing the Muslim religion. At least I hope not. Practice any religion you want.

You want to know my problem with the Islamic religion? It tolerates the horrible things people do in it's name, and shrugs it off claiming only a few people are to blame. It minimizes a situation so prevelant it doesn't even need to be blown out of proportion. You have entire nations forcing Shari'a law on people, but you want to pretend it's just a few rotten apples. Nobody wants to take responsibility. You'd much rather say your religion is being attacked unfairly for actions that aren't representative as a whole, then be concerned that huge numbers of muslims hold what we commonly view as "extremist" beliefs.

Christians in Pakistan might share their anti-American views with Muslims, but they're not the ones actually making good on their words.


Dr. Boogie "The bottom line for me is that it isn't right to single out a religion as being wrong or evil because of how some of its followers choose to interpret its dogma."

Isn't it wrong to lump the individual problems religions have into one? Or wrong to admonish a religion of it's problems because you want to appear compassionate? Only "some" of it's followers? Whatever this "some" total of followers is, they're enough of a number to be a real problem for a continent of people. I don't mean being a Muslim makes them a problem, I mean being a Muslim who believes women, gays, jews, christians, etc. should be treated as second class. This is the current climate in ALL Islamic countries. So that "some" is a lot. Turning your head and looking the other way isn't right. Singling out a religion is the unfortunate reality of this situation.

[ScruU2wice]

Um. They were calling ME a feminazi for defending women

thats just as bad if not worse. the argument you made is one that needs to be made, and im glad that you expressed your views. eventhough it also clashes with what i was trying to say. the only thing that irritates me is how many people actually believe that islam IS evil and that muslims believe in a completely different god then they do. I really wish i could do more to stop these horrible things that are happening to women. and i wish people wouldn't do such horrible acts of terrorism in the name of islam. Im not gonna say that the laws of the country don't have faults and that they are right, but they're the laws of those countries and theres little you and i can do to change them. the only way we could change those laws is if we had an army of hafizas willing to change the way that they teach islam in those countries.

[Anonymous]

Isn't it wrong to lump the individual problems religions have into one? Or wrong to admonish a religion of it's problems because you want to appear compassionate? Only "some" of it's followers? Whatever this "some" total of followers is, they're enough of a number to be a real problem for a continent of people. I don't mean being a Muslim makes them a problem, I mean being a Muslim who believes women, gays, jews, christians, etc. should be treated as second class. This is the current climate in ALL Islamic countries. So that "some" is a lot. Turning your head and looking the other way isn't right. Singling out a religion is the unfortunate reality of this situation.

Alright, it seems I've been a little unclear. I'm not playing the role of the guy who wants everybody in the whole world to join hands and live in harmony. In that statement, I meant to say that it seemed as though a bunch (to use a different abstract concept than "some") of the people in the thread were going after Scru as though he had to answer for every Muslim nation that mistreats women, sends terrorists out into the world, etc. simply because he himself is a Muslim. I'm not defending said nations.

[FartinMowler]

:(