"We are God's sheep." wow, great analogy...

[Immortal Goat]

To be called a "sheep" is the typical analogy used in the catholic religion, and it couldn't be any more fitting. To be a sheep, one follows what is required of yourself, never questioning, never having a unique thought in your head, and never breaking the cycle of conformity.

Does this analogy scare anyone else out there? There are too many religions out there that force orthodoxy upon it's followers that it sickens me. You are either a sheep or a damned soul. Does this shepherd analogy disturb any of you as much as it does me?

[CaptainBubba]

I once had a conversation with a Christian friend of mine and it can be summed up as follows:

Me: I don't want you to beleive everything, or even anything that I believe. I just want you to challenge what others tell you to beleive and actually think for yourself instead of just accepting things.

Him: "I don't want to think" (exact words).

Its easier for most people to live with the comfort that someone else is their intelectual leader. When everything you believe and think is dependent on another person it gives you a sense that you are mentally safe.

[Vibecrewangel]

That's why so many people will choose Religions of Traditions.
Religions have rules. Traditions have the ability to change with the changes in society.

[Perndog]

So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that "evil" woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb fuck and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.

[kahljorn]

lol :(

Except it was the tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. Maybe I'm stupid and don't remember my christian teachers.

[VinceZeb]

Of course, Zappa takes his views and puts them into something he hardly knows shit about. If you ever take him seriously.... just take a look at his children and then change your views pronto.

[Zhukov]

I could say almost the same thing about that 'Thomas Sowell' character pronto.

And you as well.

[mburbank]

The best thing about the Sheppard analogy, is that Sheperds tend sheep so they will stay safe and well fed until it's time to slaughter and eat them.

[Perndog]

Yes, I'll look at his children, who are affluent, intelligent, and well adjusted (notice how they're never in the news? that's because they haven't done anything crazy yet), for a good picture at Frank Zappa.

[kellychaos]

Of course, Zappa takes his views and puts them into something he hardly knows shit about. If you ever take him seriously.... just take a look at his children and then change your views pronto.

Take a look at where the universities started, Vinth. They were often seminaries first, out of reach of the common man. The Catholics loved to keep knowledge from the general public. Take a look at all the early scientists and philosophers that the church accused of heresy and tried (and succeeded in most cases) to excommunicate because their views weren't consistent with those of the church. Take a look at all the pagan religious rites that were absorbed as part of the Catholic religion that the catholic religion would have you believe originated with them. Take a look at how the Catholic religion and, indeed, the Bible has subjugated women from the beginning. In fact, take a look at all of history and do some reading outside the dogma before you start spouting off about how ignorant people are. < rant over >

[VinceZeb]

Awww, did I stwike a nurwve wit you?

[Dole]

Great comeback

[mburbank]

'stwike' I get, but 'nurwve'? What's that even supposed to sound like? What speech impediment is that supposed to represent?

My God, can't you even perform the simplest mockery without screwing up?

[Spectre X]

VINTH! You wanted to join Mensa right? That means you'll go to hell, because you shouldn't be intelligent because you're a catholic! Quick! Forget how to write!



I seriously hope he takes my advice :(

[O71394658]

To be called a "sheep" is the typical analogy used in the catholic religion, and it couldn't be any more fitting. To be a sheep, one follows what is required of yourself, never questioning, never having a unique thought in your head, and never breaking the cycle of conformity.

Does this analogy scare anyone else out there? There are too many religions out there that force orthodoxy upon it's followers that it sickens me. You are either a sheep or a damned soul. Does this shepherd analogy disturb any of you as much as it does me?

Probably taken in today's contrast of blindly following without question, then it is in no way a fitting analogy to be called. But the analogy itself isn't supposed to be used like that.

The view of the sheep is two-fold...only seen together in light of the Shepard. You aren't a sheep because you blindly follow and believe everything that the Church accepts as absolute dogma (considering the Church has changed its mind over several years on a few issue), but because you recognize the existance of Jesus as a guiding light and helper in your life. It's a mere simile to the fact that God loves you and is watching over you, like a shepard does to his flock of sheep.

There is no sense of conformity attached to it.

[Immortal Goat]

No sense of conformity? You must belong to a very VERY lenient church, because most people I know that are Catholic do not believe they have much of a choice in the way they are allowed to behave, religiously speaking. Take a look at any of VinceZeb's posts about religion, and you can see right there that there is most certainly a very conformist sect in the Catholic Church.

[Emu]

"Everybody bow and pray with me."

[O71394658]

No sense of conformity? You must belong to a very VERY lenient church, because most people I know that are Catholic do not believe they have much of a choice in the way they are allowed to behave, religiously speaking. Take a look at any of VinceZeb's posts about religion, and you can see right there that there is most certainly a very conformist sect in the Catholic Church.

No sense of conformity. We come together to worship as a group. You can "follow" the rules set forth by God, or you don't have to if you don't want to. It's personal choice. Obeying the will of God is hardly something I would deem as conformity. Humility before God is nothing to be ashamed of.

[CaptainBubba]

Unless god doesn't exist. :lol

[O71394658]

But I don't have to worry about that. :)

[CaptainBubba]

Lucky you. :(

[O71394658]

Indeed sir. :posh

[El Blanco]

Take a look at where the universities started, Vinth. They were often seminaries first, out of reach of the common man.

Actually, it was quite the opposite. They were open to anyone willing to learn who could make the trip. That was the big divider. The ability to get to the universities.

The Catholics loved to keep knowledge from the general public.

Ya, the way guys like Aquinas and Augustine were persecuted for their work.

Take a look at all the early scientists and philosophers that the church accused of heresy and tried (and succeeded in most cases) to excommunicate because their views weren't consistent with those of the church.

And look how the Church helped support many artisants during the Rennaisance.

Take a look at how the Catholic religion and, indeed, the Bible has subjugated women from the beginning.

Yes, we invented that. And, we don't hold any women in high regard or anything.

In fact, take a look at all of history and do some reading outside the dogma before you start spouting off about how ignorant people are.

What is that saying about glass houses?

[The One and Only...]

WTF is up with all the religon bashing on these boards?

[El Blanco]

Some people come in and ask rational questions. They have an interest is debating or possibly learning something.

Others come in with an attitude of some kind of intellectual superiority because they got on the "hate religion" bandwagon. They ask questions while calling people "unthinking" and "childish" and then accuse us of being over defensive when we get pissed about it.

[mburbank]

To play the devil's advocate, irony intended, what is up with all the religion supporting on this board?

Seriously, this is a rough and tumble discussion board, and there's mixed serious and childish discussion of all topics. Why would religion be exempt.

I've stated before that I think a blind unthinking rejection of God and Religion is pretty stupid, just as a blind and unthinking acceptance of God and Religion is pretty stupid. I'm not a big fan of blind and unthinking, which tends to be a blade that cuts very well in any direction.

[Supafly345]

Yes, the voice of common sense is shouted from the hills! This is probably the number one thing people should actually read and think about in these threads.

[FS]

True enough, but this post does distinctly reek of "hah! I scored another point for atheism guys!".

[Perndog]

You'd think from the attitude of most atheists that they'd want to just remove religion from their lives, but they don't. And I don't buy any of that bullshit about how the theists are all over and you can't help being exposed; I go to a Christian college, and my only daily dose of Christianity comes on this very board.

Bottom line is, the only thing atheists get from attacking any religion is a sense of self-satisfaction in their own supposed rightness. Which I think is fine, if only you admit that's what it is. The problem in my eyes comes when they won't admit that and start thinking they're accomplishing something.

[Vibecrewangel]

Bottom line is, the only thing atheists get from attacking any religion is a sense of self-satisfaction in their own supposed rightness.

The same can go for those on the other side of the fence........

[kellychaos]

Actually, it was quite the opposite. They were open to anyone willing to learn who could make the trip. That was the big divider. The ability to get to the universities.


Ummm ... no. Try again. Money was the divider. The aristocracy and clergy had it, peasants did not.


Ya, the way guys like Aquinas and Augustine were persecuted for their work.


Rare exceptions. And notice how their work agreed with the view of the church at the time. Big difference.


And look how the Church helped support many artisants during the Rennaisance.


And they were commisioned to do what? That's right! Religious art work which is ironic considering it was for a religion that was supposed to be opposed to idoltry, graven images, ect. One lil' bit of trivia that cracks me up was that Da Vinci, a non-Christian, was commisioned to do several religious works of art for the Catholic church and used to put little inside pagan symbols and references within the context of the painting which religious leaders didn't even understand. What a prankster!


Yes, we invented that. And, we don't hold any women in high regard or anything.


'Cept for child bearin'! Be ironic as you like, it's true.


What is that saying about glass houses?

I'm comfortable in my stone house, thank you very little. Back up the trash instead of just spouting off Vinth-style and I might concede that your arguments are valid because you've proved nothing beyond "I know you are but what am I." to me so far.

P.S. I'm not trying to be a "religion hater". I'm just trying to weed out the inconsistencies and contradictions to see if what is at it's core says anything to me that is worth adhering to spriritually. Sure, the Bible and Catholic religion has a lot of important things to add my spiritual life. I just wish they'd shed themselves of the hypocrisy and BS and get down to the kernel of what Christianity supposed to be. That's all I'm sayin'

[Brandon]

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[The One and Only...]

Buddha taught that to exist is to suffer. He wanted everyone to attain a state of nonexistance.

Jesus did not.

You people are spouting off claiming that this wasn't that, Christianity is killing western morals, etc. yet not one of you has mentioned the effect of Hammurabi's Code on the 10 commandments.

Tsk, tsk.

Anyway, the bible is certainly a good place for history. Much of the bible's historical accuracy has been proven already: it's just a question of where faith fits in.

[O71394658]

Brandon, I would appreciate if you would back up your statements with facts instead of spouting blanket statements that are way too typical of 14-year old boys who hate the world. :)

[Brandon]

edit

[Brandon]

edit

[El Blanco]

Ummm ... no. Try again. Money was the divider. The aristocracy and clergy had it, peasants did not.

And yo ucan prove this how? Oh, you can't. You are just making an assumption and trying to pass it off as fact.

Where do you think the traditon of European universities not charging tuition came from? It was from the universities not charging anyone to begin with way bag in the Middle Ages. Anyone who made the trip and did the work could learn. Of course, the aristocracy were usualy the only ones that could make such a trip, but don't just pull something out of your ass and scream," It's the Church! Its all their fault."

And they were commisioned to do what? That's right! Religious art work which is ironic considering it was for a religion that was supposed to be opposed to idoltry, graven images, ect.

And there were no advancements in architecture or engineering because of that or anything.

And notice how their work agreed with the view of the church at the time

Actually, there was no Church hierarchy when Augustine wrote City of God, so who was going to persecute him?

And Aquinas was delving into subjects nobody else, including the Church, was willing to touch.

One lil' bit of trivia that cracks me up was that Da Vinci, a non-Christian, was commisioned to do several religious works of art for the Catholic church and used to put little inside pagan symbols and references within the context of the painting which religious leaders didn't even understand. What a prankster!

Meh. I've heard that and seen a few examples. If the Church officials didn't know what it meant, how would anyone else besides Davinci and a select few? Its like hackers putting a bunch of 733T all over a board. It only makes them look like assholes.

Still, his genius still did the work for the Church.

'Cept for child bearin'! Be ironic as you like, it's true.

Ya, no woman ever did anything especially heroic or noteworthy in the bible.


I'm comfortable in my stone house

Uh, your "stone" house is see through and brittle. And shatters when you play music too high.

Back up the trash instead of just spouting off Vinth-style

Hey, watch those rocks. I'd have to say you and ArtificialBrandon are closer to a Vince than I ever will.

I just wish they'd shed themselves of the hypocrisy and BS and get down to the kernel of what Christianity supposed to be.

Ok, Jesus, what might that be?

[O71394658]

Whatever you want. Just not blanket statements.

07's example of blanket statement: "God sucks and I hate him and he sucks and he is the cause of the decay of civilization and he sucks and a lot of people die in holy wars...and he sucks".

Better statement: "1,000,000,000 people died in the Crusades."

See blanket statements as opposed to specific reasons?

Edit: Oh yeah. Copy/pastes don't count either.

[Brandon]

edit

[O71394658]

Since when was I attacking God? I thought it was only an assault on the Christian religions. You just made a blanket response by assuming it was an attack on theism in general.

Hence the key word "example".

The fact that I condensed the argument using broad statements doesn't make it any less valid.

I disagree. :posh


Unless, of course, you need me to remind you that the Crusades claimed tremendous human life, the Catholic church was in the habit of selling indulgences, and the Puritans executed "witches."

Ist das alles? Are these the points that lead you to hate Christianity with every fiber of your being?

[Brandon]

edit

[O71394658]

You expect me to bow to your words. I'm merely asking you to back up what you say. I'm sorry if that's a problem for you.

[The One and Only...]

Jesus did not infer that one should sit back and wait for death. Nothing he has ever said even comes close to that sort of comment.

If that were the case, then why would he discourage suicide?

[Perndog]

Where do you think the traditon of European universities not charging tuition came from? It was from the universities not charging anyone to begin with way bag in the Middle Ages. Anyone who made the trip and did the work could learn. Of course, the aristocracy were usualy the only ones that could make such a trip, but don't just pull something out of your ass and scream," It's the Church! Its all their fault."

Guess what, dude. Universities did begin as seminaries, because in western Europe after the fall of Rome, the church was just about the only body wealthy and powerful enough to establish them. No rich noble would have just said "Hey, I'll start a university!"

But no, it wasn't the church's fault that only the aristocrats got educated. While I have little doubt it would have tried if necessary, the church didn't need to bother keeping people dumb; feudalism did the job admirably, by keeping a large percentage of the population poor and bound to servitude.

Meh. I've heard that and seen a few examples. If the Church officials didn't know what it meant, how would anyone else besides Davinci and a select few? Its like hackers putting a bunch of 733T all over a board. It only makes them look like assholes.

Please. :rolleyes This is off-topic, but will you people quit misnaming all of those 14-year old wannabe losers as hackers? The real hackers pick on them even more than you do for typing like that.

[El Blanco]

Sorry, it was off the top of my head. How about "bot-babies"?

[Dole]

It staggers my mind to see how many of you in the states are fervently religious....I dont know anyone who practices religion....THANK FUCK.

[El Blanco]

I see you have also done away with such burdensome things such as tolerance, understanding and thinking before you join a conversation.

[kahljorn]

Who gives a fuck what jesus said, even if he was real and a fucking prophet and shit he was still a MAN, which indicates he was searching just like us. He's not around to discuss his ideals and shit, so fuck it.

[El Blanco]

Can people stop posting while high? I know it seems funny at first, but a lot of you come off as just plain retarded.

Anyway, to address the "point". Yes, Jesus was human............and divine. He is God, which is why we believe he is so important.

[kahljorn]

God of the questioned form is not a person. Sorry to burst everyone's bubbblies.

[Dole]

"I see you have also done away with such burdensome things such as tolerance, understanding and thinking before you join a conversation."

I was just expressing my joy and relief that I dont come into contact with people like you in my day to day life. Its a constant source of happiness that helps increase my tolerance, understanding and compassion towards those who arent right wing fundamentalist christian pro-life shitbags :)

[VinceZeb]

Where to start:

Brandon, you can hate Christanity all you want, but without it, the world would be Muslim right now, we would not have any art, and we would pretty much be stuck around the era of the 8th century.

Next time you see a Christian, or more specifically a Catholic, say "Thank you."


Kahljorn, if you believe Jesus was just a main when it comes to the beliefs of Christanity, well, then you must not possed the ability to read, see, or hear. He is the God Made Man, the Word Made Flesh. He pretty much says He is God throught the entire New Testament, contrary to kelly bias and uneducated viewpoints, which for him are just his gold standard.

Speaking of idiots (Kelly), I'd like to see this grand piece of proof that us Catholics want our women knocked up, cooking, and barefoot. I mean, it's isn't like we hold any women in high regard or anything :rolleyes *see Mary, Virgin Mother of God*

I love how Christanity, especially Catholicism, is treated on this board to have more layers of bullshit and mystery than the fucking Tri-Lateral Commission or the Illumaniti. Most of everyone's "hatred" of said religion on this board and in general comes from lack of education, an ability to get a feeling of "empowerment" by hating the most respected and regonized religion in the existance of mankind, or the simple fact that I would hate God too if I looked like the vast majority of this message board.

And Blanco, I know you think your cute, but don't compare me to these fucking douchebags. If I cared enough to type a book, I would. So you can go fuck yourself.

[Zhukov]

Thankyou Vince, for defeating the muslamic invaders.

[El Blanco]

"I see you have also done away with such burdensome things such as tolerance, understanding and thinking before you join a conversation."

I was just expressing my joy and relief that I dont come into contact with people like you in my day to day life. Its a constant source of happiness that helps increase my tolerance, understanding and compassion towards those who arent right wing fundamentalist christian pro-life shitbags :)

So, let me get this straight:

Sweeping generalizations and blind prejudice help you become more toerant?

And most americans aren't:

1 Right-wing: we tend to be more middle of the road. The reason guys like Pat Robertson are on TV isn't because they speak for most of us, its because they are so extrmeme, they become interesting to watch. ITs like a traffic accident, you know you shouldn't look, you just can't help yourself.

2 Fundamentalist: most of us don't read the Bible often enough to become fundamentalists

3 Pro-life: Ya, we are shitbags because we haven't solved that issue. We are actually debating and considering its complicated reprecussions rather than just jumping on it because it is new and makes life easier for a few days.

Truth be told, I'm anti-abortion. I really can't say I am totally pro-life. I am all for taking stupid people out of the gene pool.


you can hate Christanity all you want, but without it, the world would be Muslim right now, we would not have any art, and we would pretty much be stuck around the era of the 8th century.

Its not nearly that simple. The fact that there was a whole region called Eastern Europe acting as a buffer between the Ottomans and Rome helped a lot.

I know you think your cute,

Cute? I am a sexy, sexy man.

don't compare me to these fucking douchebags.

Two sides of the same coin, shecky.

If I cared enough to type a book, I would.

Crazy Catholic Coloring?

So you can go fuck yourself.

Dude, seriously, get a sense of humor. If the people who are supposed to be on your side are telling you you look like a moron, don't you think there might be something to it?

[mburbank]

Vinth, none of us dooubt for an instant you're pleasing to the eye. I think it's very christ like of you to be so concerned about appearance and what it means. Please post your picture. I'm sure we'd all be illuminated by it's light.

That being said, I have a great deal of respect for Catholocism, and it's one of the reasons I dislike you so intensely. You denigrate it with every ignorant bit of pap that rolls out of your mouth. Your understanding of the bible is shallow and repugnant, your interpretation of the teachings of Jesus fo no further than a dogmatic belief in his divinity and your general intolerance and hubristic pride make me wonder when your last confession was and how many acts of attrition you've performed. I know confession isn't that hip amongst Cattholics these days, but since you barely recognize Vatican II, I should think you'd confess to your priest at very least weekly, though I'd recommend twice a day.

If Catholicism is the literal truth, I hope you are prepared for the 'conquenences' of your actions in thought and deed, and I hope you enjoy hell.

[mburbank]

"Oh, did I stwike a nurwve, Jew?"
-Vinth

[Perndog]

"Most of everyone's "hatred" of said religion on this board and in general comes from lack of education"

:lol This from the only guy on the Philosophy forum that can barely string together a sentence.

And...

"[T]he world would be Muslim right now, we would not have any art, and we would pretty much be stuck around the era of the 8th century."

:lol Because, you know, Muslims never produced *any* art or did *anything* useful (even in the 7-800 years between the 8th century and the crusades), that whole story about them inventing algebra and moving medical practice out of the dark ages was just a myth. And they never contributed to architecture, which is why you don't see big spires and stuff all over eastern Europe. And of course if they hadn't been slammed back into one little corner of the world by bloody righteous Catholics and had been allowed to flourish, they still would have stopped advancinc culturally right then and there.

[El Blanco]

And of course if they hadn't been slammed back into one little corner of the world by bloody righteous Catholics and had been allowed to flourish, they still would have stopped advancinc culturally right then and there.

One little corner? Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia,and a whole chunk of the South Pacific. Thats a big fucking corner.

And they stopped advancing culturaly because they got comfortable with being superior to Europe. However, because the Reformation, Europeans competed with each other and got stronger for it. When they turned their sights to the Muslim world, the Muslims didn't stand a chance.

And they still won't change anything. Their current situation has as much, if not more, to do with their own refusal to change rather than any thing the Evil Cathoics did.

[VinceZeb]

I know this may blow your mind Pern, but try to follow along:

I could have as much fun and put as much effort into this message board as with one of those old automated response programs they used to have on BBSs. To sum it up: You all are words on a screen with a picture on the left hand side. Nothing more, nothing less. If I don't answer someone or don't finish the sentence, maybe it is because I don't want to exert the effort to or I'm busy doing something else!! WOW!! What a mystery!!!

Now, I know that may defeat your belief that people should "care" what they type on a message board, but try to keep up.

[sspadowsky]

Or maybe you're just completely full of shit, and incapable of constructing a coherent argument. Wow. What a mystery, indeed.

[VinceZeb]

Or maybe you're just completely full of shit, and incapable of constructing a coherent argument. Wow. What a mystery, indeed.

Ok, I will construct a coherent argument that you can understand:

"Me not care lot about board."

Is that simple enough, or do I need to break out Pictionary so you can understand it?

[sspadowsky]

Why not? It's likely to be more effective than your fucking writing.

[The One and Only...]

<------Steals Vince's comment for sigdom.

[kellychaos]

Brandon, I would appreciate if you would back up your statements with facts instead of spouting blanket statements that are way too typical of 14-year old boys who hate the world. :)

The proof is all around you (i.e. self-evident) and thus a proof is not necessary. In other words, I don't see anything in his argument that requires a proof ... western culture just IS, for the most part, that way. People hate themselves for being people and always seem to be stuck in this "us against God" mode as if he is a separate entity. He is within AND without us and I think the mistake people make is in the separation.

[El Blanco]

Thats not really an answer. "The proof is all around us".

Seriously, try that one in a moderated debate. It won't fly.

He asked for specific examples, you need to provide them.

I can just as easily claim that the Western World's ills have come about because of a deviation from Catholicism. I mean, the proof is all around us.

[Perndog]

Now, I know that may defeat your belief that people should "care" what they type on a message board, but try to keep up.

:lol

Yeah, and I spend a lot of effort proofreading all of my sentences and making sure they are coherent and spelled correctly.

Oh wait, no I don't. I just know how to write in the first place, so whether or not I'm typing something important or putting effort into it, people will still be able to tell that I made it through 7th grade.

[VinceZeb]

All that coming from a guy who prays at the altar of the Buffalo Bills' of religion.

[Immortal Goat]

I love how Christanity, especially Catholicism, is treated on this board to have more layers of bullshit and mystery than the fucking Tri-Lateral Commission or the Illumaniti. Most of everyone's "hatred" of said religion on this board and in general comes from lack of education, an ability to get a feeling of "empowerment" by hating the most respected and regonized religion in the existance of mankind...


Ok, Vinth, let me see. What is your definition of "education"? Is it being around Catholosism almost all of one's life and being told about it in school? (I refuse to call it being "taught" because it is against individual thought anyway.)

Well, I have all that. I know about Catholosism, having been force-fed it all my life. I am not ignorant about it, and I have flat-out refused to accept it because of one single fact. There are people out there of other religious beliefs (or none at all) that are far more deserving of the Kingdom of Heaven than many Catholics I know, and I am pleased to say that you, Vinth, are numero uno on that long, long list.

[kahljorn]

I do agree that it's stupid of us to always rag on christianity like sharks drawn to Blood.. but I also find it fucking stupid of Vince to constantly talk about it like he has something new to say.

[Perndog]

All that coming from a guy who prays at the altar of the Buffalo Bills' of religion.

Sorry; I don't pray, and I don't know football, so I can't feel insulted by that comment. Try again.

[Brandon]

Thats not really an answer. "The proof is all around us".

Seriously, try that one in a moderated debate. It won't fly.

He asked for specific examples, you need to provide them.

I can just as easily claim that the Western World's ills have come about because of a deviation from Catholicism. I mean, the proof is all around us.

Very well.

Examine the doctrines of and "moral lessons" implicit in most varities of Christianity. What is universal in all denominations is a cheapening of earthly matters since they are "inferior" to the "true world" or "next life." This would definitely have a bearing on the popular feeling that this life is somehow overrated and defective. Also, this sort of otherworldliness and mysticism, which is also evidenced in philosophical idealism (another tragedy of Western culture), can give rise, interestingly enough, to nihilism and suicide. After all, one does not kill him or herself JUST because life involves suffering...they kill themselves because they can conceive of a world that does NOT involve suffering. I can think of nothing more tragic than people who allow their life to slip away without truly living, preferring to spend their time on their knees, hands clasped in prayer, praying for forgiveness for trivial "sins" so they may reach a "new life" that they can't be sure exists.

Sexual activity in general is treated as something impure--a dirty little secret of humanity. While some Christian churches have become a little more open about sexuality, the side effects of the earlier dogmas are still evidenced in the almost Puritanical nature of American culture. Once again, by throwing filth on sexuality--the way of propogating our species, Christianity has indirectly taken up life-denying values.

In the New Testament, the weak, ignorant, and vice-ridden members of society are raised up in praise, while the educated and strong--the Pharisees, are viewed as reprehensible. While the noble classes of Jerusalem were indeed arrogant (not an admirable trait by a long shot), the NT paints them in a light which makes them appear positively demonic. Along these lines (and I'll explain why) is the issue of Adam and Eve's "original sin"--eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

So what do those two things have in common? A disdain for knowledge. According this religious tradition, ignorance is next to godliness. After all, the more you know, the less easy you are to control. Blind faith, regardless of how ridiculous it may be, was regarded as the supreme virtue. And what is a better example of this in the modern world than the fundamentalists who put their fingers in their ears and scream "I can't hear you!" whenever evolution is mentioned?

It would take me forever to list everything, but the most well-phrased attack on Christianity's subversive values can be found in Nietzsche's The Antichrist. Check it out if you're not busy:

http://www.publicappeal.org/library/nietzsche/Nietzsche_the_antichrist/the_antichrist.htm

[kahljorn]

The above post is pointless and boring.

[Perndog]

I dunno, I kinda liked it. At least it was on-topic.

[kahljorn]

Sort of, but the points were bland and nearly irrelevant, almost redundant of the common Atheist rhetoric.

[Perndog]

The common atheist rhetoric is what it is because the points are valid, and in this case they are indeed relevant because we are discussing whether Christianity advocates ignorance and blind obedience. And he can't be redundant, because this thread hadn't already seen his argument.

[kahljorn]

The points are "Valid" just like the Christian points are "Valid". If both are valid it indicates bias, which indicates Christian rhetoric. Which indicates me being bored. Which indicates me saying a post was boring.
How does not having sex have anything to do with ignorance? It just seems like a pointless statement, it doesnt say not to have sex AT ALL, it says not to go around laying every bitch you see. I wonder why. Plenty of aids out there now a days, plenty of teen pregnancies with children who get beat and are malnurished and then their mommies drown them and eat their souls...This is of course besides the fact that we have destroyed half the land of the world and depleted most natural resources. I WONDER WHY IT SAYS NOT TO GO AROUND AND FUCK EVERYTHING YOU SEE AND REPRODUCE LIKE RABBITS?
Point: invalid.


Other statement: Earthly values bad not being?
What have we seen from the love of earthly values and "Inferior" objects?
War over plots of land? For oil? Theft and murder? You want a tv, can't have one, so you go jack someone else? Why why why. Why I wonder why. I can't seem to decide why. I'm sure I could think of some more consequences of earthly desires, but I'm also sure you have the brain to muster up the musstering.
Point? INVALID.

I also never called him redundant, I called his views redundant of the Atheist rhetoric. I could call him redundant, though, because every post he has made has been against the practice of christianity in some fashion. Just because the church pussy whipped the people of the time using the "Good Book" doesn't mean it's this or that. They could've done it with any manner or tool, if you look through history it has been the reoccuring fact: people are controlled and led blindly. By one means or another. That does not include today's times, "democracy" doesn't mean jack shit, all it does is allow people to bitch about how things are.
Go ahead and think you're special because you live in america, though, that's their "Bible".

[kahljorn]

Funky g and the funky bunch

[Perndog]

Ok, you made me do it. Argument time.

The points are "Valid" just like the Christian points are "Valid". If both are valid it indicates bias, which indicates Christian rhetoric. Which indicates me being bored. Which indicates me saying a post was boring.
How does not having sex have anything to do with ignorance? It just seems like a pointless statement, it doesnt say not to have sex AT ALL, it says not to go around laying every bitch you see. I wonder why. Plenty of aids out there now a days, plenty of teen pregnancies with children who get beat and are malnurished and then their mommies drown them and eat their souls...This is of course besides the fact that we have destroyed half the land of the world and depleted most natural resources. I WONDER WHY IT SAYS NOT TO GO AROUND AND FUCK EVERYTHING YOU SEE AND REPRODUCE LIKE RABBITS?
Point: invalid.

*BUZZ* WRONG. Christianity does not warn against "laying every bitch you see," it warns against any kind of sex other than for procreation (with your spouse) i.e. masturbation, oral sex, birth control, etc. By denying churchgoers' sexual desires and knowing they will either give in to temptation or become clergy (or both), the church lays a load of guilt on their shoulders and keeps them in line.

NEXT.

Other statement: Earthly values bad not being?
What have we seen from the love of earthly values and "Inferior" objects?
War over plots of land? For oil? Theft and murder? You want a tv, can't have one, so you go jack someone else? Why why why. Why I wonder why. I can't seem to decide why. I'm sure I could think of some more consequences of earthly desires, but I'm also sure you have the brain to muster up the musstering.
Point? INVALID.

*BUZZ* WRONG AGAIN. Having, admitting to, and nurturing earthly desires does NOT lead to fulfilling them in ways that are harmful to others. Everyone, Christian or not, is taught that stealing and killing are wrong, and if they grow up to steal and kill, it is not because they didn't go to church. Satanists are in the business of seeking carnal pleasure, but they get kicked out of the church if they do something blatantly illegal in the process. Christianity does not stop at making people good, law-abiding folk, it teaches that our bodies are dirty, that we must do only what is necessary to keep them healthy and concentrate our efforts on the spirit BECAUSE the mundane is inferior to the spiritual and by giving in to any mundane desire one separates himself from God. This adds more guilt for every time someone gives in to his cravings, and it keeps people low-maintenance by making them believe that they don't need anything but God to be happy.

I also never called him redundant, I called his views redundant of the Atheist rhetoric. I could call him redundant, though, because every post he has made has been against the practice of christianity in some fashion. Just because the church pussy whipped the people of the time using the "Good Book" doesn't mean it's this or that. They could've done it with any manner or tool, if you look through history it has been the reoccuring fact: people are controlled and led blindly. By one means or another. That does not include today's times, "democracy" doesn't mean jack shit, all it does is allow people to bitch about how things are.
Go ahead and think you're special because you live in america, though, that's their "Bible".

I like this point, however; very true. Personally, I admire the way the shepherds control the sheep, and I have long since stopped attacking them for that. I'm simply arguing here that they did and do; that should be painfully obvious and not really worth debate. I think the problem here is that an awful lot of atheists (like Brandon) have it in for Christianity because it is so prevalent and they think it's getting in their face all the time - they feel the need to stand up and strike out at it or else it will stomp all over them.

And I think a lot of them, particularly the younger ones, are a little sad because they don't have a religion of their own to identify with (though they'd never admit it).

[kahljorn]

What the church says and what Jesus said are two different things. I'm sure this point doesn't need discussing.

To continue, the purpose of religion(in it's purest form) is not to blindly corrupt and lead people. Rather, the design of it is to improve the personal soul of a person. You know, the souls well-being. Regardless of how the Church MISINTERPRETTED(we have already established they spread bullshit) certain things, the results of opposing them can be seen. They aren't even religious in nature, they are scientific fact. You go around fucking you're going to get someone pregnant. We know this(if you would like a sex ed talky talk let me know).
Also, sitting around masturbating to pictures of naked women is going to make you want women. SImple psychology. Getting your cock sucked is only going to make you want to stick your dick in them. Try to deny fucking a broad's mouth is nice, but fucking her hard isnt nicer.
Also, sex and earthly objects are interchangable. They are both desires, as desire they can taint the soul's journey to wherever the fuck it's going. To put it straight, you wanting something so bad it consumes you is going to "interupt your meditation", so to speak. I don't really want to explain the detachment from earthly shit shit.

Okay, as to the statement about not killing and shit, yes, everyone is taught it, and religion doesn't stop it. I agree whole-heartedly, but regardless, the point still stands that earthly desires are a primary trigger if not cause of said events. So how is Jesus CHrist warning against them bad? HOw is even the church warning against them bad? I really don't understand the point you were trying to make, if anything you reinforced the purpose of them preaching said beliefs. Please reliterate?
Do you think if the church said "Material objects are good! GET YOURSELF A GOAT!!!" it would have made things any different? Today people know shit is good, and yet there are poor people.
As by brandons proclaimations, during those times nobody wanted good things. Nobody worked for bread, economy failed, and there were no rich people. Nor no poor people who became rich, through merchanting or the such. :rolleyes.
People have always wanted.

I'd also tend to mention that people can seem to misinterpret the church's ideals, but that's OKay, because I misinterpret too. Touche myself. Touche.
That was as per your christian soul well-being ness. What is wrong with practicing spiritual cleansing, which could supposively reflect upon the material? A simple immitation of buddhism?

[Brandon]

Well I guess there's no need for me to post anymore, since I've already been passed off as just another angry young man.

C'est la vie. :suicide

[Dole]

"Right-wing: we tend to be more middle of the road."

:lol :lol :lol

[kahljorn]

I don't think you're angry, I just don't like your avatar.

[VinceZeb]

Ok, Vinth, let me see. What is your definition of "education"? Is it being around Catholosism almost all of one's life and being told about it in school? (I refuse to call it being "taught" because it is against individual thought anyway.)...

That bolded line is the reason that if you used your brains to paint your wall, they would have served you more use in life up to this point.

Ever read the Lord of the Rings trilogy? The guy who wrote it was CATHOLIC.

Ever heard of St. Thomas Aquinas, one of the most respect thinkers in the history of mankind? CATHOLIC.

I could go on and on, but you are too fucking stupid to understand it and I'm too fucking bored of this conversation already.


And pern, my statement meant you are a fucking loser who practices or at least respects a fucking loser religion. And it's funny that you "don't know anything about football" yet you knew the Bills were a football team. Try again.

[FS]

He's got you there, Perndog. And hey - how come you know the word "football"? Clearly you know at least something about football. Liar.

[Perndog]

Vinth made me cry, and then FS made me laugh. This thread is fun.

kahljorn:

Pure religion may not be about control. But when I say Christianity tells people something, I mean the faith, and not the church. These are basic tenets that may have been emphasized but were not invented by church leaders.

Regarding sex, I think you missed my point a bit. As I said, Christianity doesn't only teach people not to go around fucking everyone, it preaches that sex other than for procreation is wrong, which is a harmful thing because almost everyone has a need for sexual gratification that is not fulfilled by waiting to do anything about it until you're ready to be a parent.

Masturbating to pictures of naked women does not stop you from wanting them, but it makes it a lot easier to wait until you get to have one. Do you go out and try to get laid immediately after you get your rocks off? If you stroke it a couple times a week and have vivid fantasies, do you get so frustrated that you'll do anything to realize those fantasies? No, because your basic need has been fulfilled - same with a blowjob or whatever. You may not be getting the best thing possible, but that's not important, at least not beyond a superficial level; the only thing that is crucial is having some kind of release, and this is precisely what Christianity denies.

Yes, sex is only another earthly desire, like the desire for good food and all that; I only carried the distinction from your previous argument. And you're missing the boat when it comes to desire; it's not the desire itself that is the good thing, but the fulfillment of that desire. I don't allow myself to be consumed by desire because I let myself have what I want. I embrace my desires not for themselves but for the gratification that comes afterward, which we all need to some extent. Under Christianity, however, by denying desires and keeping them from being fulfilled, people do become consumed, because they are forbidden to do what is natural, and they are taught to feel guilty once they succumb so they try to repress their natural desire. You're right: wanting something so bad it consumes you is going to fuck you up, and you get to that point by not getting what you want, which is exactly what Christianity leads to.

Does this make better sense? People will have desires no matter what you teach them, and to say that something they already feel is wrong is only to lay guilt on them and eventually drive them to frustration and compulsion. To say instead, "yes, you can have what you want, as long as you find a way to get it," frees people to fulfill their basic needs and wants and motivates them (who should already know enough not to kill or steal in the process) to strive for the things that aren't readily available, instead of sitting in complacency and "cleansing their spirit"...whatever the Hell a spirit is.

[Immortal Goat]

I see Vinth has conveniently chosen to ignore the statement I made about there being many atheists and people of other beliefs that are more deserving of being in the state of Heaven than he is. I wonder why that is?? :rolleyes

Also, Vinth, yes I have heard of both of those people. But those are only two examples of an almost entirely thoughtless group of people (at least when it comes to faith). I never said that Catholics do not think about literature and stuff like that in their own ways, but that they do not have the sense to think that they might possibly be wrong in their beliefs in God.

What does Orthodoxy mean? It strictly means "without thought". And I have heard too many sermons that included the phrases "Orthodox Christians" and "believers in the one true faith".

[kahljorn]

So, the church preches an idealogy that is obviously not embraced. They have fucking big screen televisions, they don't know the value of what they are saying. And it's not that people are blindly following, it's that people are stupid enought to think God loves them right after they just bought their new RV.
Also, going from the tangent of having NO SEX AT ALL(not even for procreation as the dignants would fortell) certainly does have it's application in a souls journey. Other than that I don't know why they say not to have sex, especially since the other stipulation is that you don't have sex before marriage. It's basically a way to allow God control over your penis. I think it used to be a strange mating ritual type thing, like your child would come out retarded with three heads unless you got married.

[Perndog]

Goat: The practical defnition of orthodoxy is traditionalism. Orthodox is accepted practice, and orthodoxy is following that practice even after it has been discarded or modified by others (in this case, by conservative and Reformed Jews).

kahljorn: The fact that the church preaches something that its followers don't practice is only evidence that what they preach isn't the way things really ought to be; to put it succinctly, "Nothing that feels this good can be as evil as they make it out to be."

And I still think that the no sex rule is just another means of control: either a person will become so frustrated they will concentrate more and more on God and the church in order to quell their desire or they will succumb and then look to the church to assuage their guilt.

I wrote a lot more after this, but it wasn't really relevant. Nevermind. :/

[kahljorn]

Personally i think people just misunderstand the teachings. Not only literally but even in it's essence(This would tend to even include those opposed).
Most people tend to look at what it is rather than why it is(what exactly doing it is supposed to prevent or cause). Simply saying, "God wouldn't want me to" is a fucking stupid reason. It's like the little kid who won't steal candy because his mommy is watching. Perhaps the biggest thing for the church to get over is not merely performing the deeds in the bible but first understanding them.
I would say the same to anyone opposing them as well, most people who raggatag the Christian religion are irritating and trying to fit into the adverse christian cliche. "I'm cool because I hate God".
They sit around thinking of ways to spite the christian religion and finding contradictions that have nothing at all to do with the Spiritual nature of it. It really just makes people look stupid when they go, "GOD LOVES EVERYONE BUT HE FLOODED THE EARTH? TRULY GOD IS NOT REAL THEN SO THE WHOLE BIBLE IS FALSE", little beknown it to them there are many places in the bible where it says GOD IS EVIL and people are merely trying to propisition his good side with their faith.

Why fight the proposed answers when you can develop your own perceptions? It's such a waste of time. Igrony?

[Perndog]

Your argument assumes that there Christianity has some intrinsic value. What if it doesn't? What if everything God or the prophets ever said was either bunk, only historically relevant, or trivial? From the perspective of a non-Christian, I do not feel compelled to believe that just because Christianity has led to some good things and has persisted so long, its "essence," as you say, is a good one.

If you are convinced that people misunderstand Christian teachings, you must have a better understanding than they do, so please tell me what everyone is missing and why they're missing it. Because if there is something worthwhile about it, I'm sure in the dark. Spiritual nature? What is spirituality? What is a spirit? If it exists, do we need it? I have not once in my life done anything intentionally to nurture my "spirit," and I am currently in the best mental and emotional shape of my life.

[kahljorn]

What if what you say had no "intristic" value and christianity is the absolute right and now you're going to burn in hell? If Christianity were irrelevant, it would thus claim all active partitions of itself, including the opposing elements, similarly irrelevant. It would also sadly render every other religion and idealogy irrelevant, simply by chalking teeth.
And yes, there are plenty of good things to christianity, necessary factors to the overall development of things. In fact, if Christianity had not came and went by means of "COrruption", you would not be where you are today. Your thoughts would likely be nothing like they are, and you might not be in the best "Emotional and mental shape ever". You are who you are because of Christianity, it still played an integral part of your life rather False or Real.

Nobody really knows what a spirit is; by speculation it could be related to many things. The subconscious, for example. Which ironically pulses and ebbs with the fiberglass embrace of dreams, which are said to be a link to the spirit world. It's said your spirit gives off an aura of forms, your body/mind whatever also sends out these things called "Alphabeta waves". With these waves you can buy milk, for really cheap(offer available for a limited time only). This is a scientific thing. They are real. Meditation really does things, there are lucid dreams. Astral projection is possible, but I do not know if it is more of a vivid active hallucination than your spirit leaving your body.
Other than that, I can offer you nothing on the soul/spirit. I believe it to be something of the mind, or the mind is something of the spirit, but most would disagree.

[Brandon]

In fact, if Christianity had not came and went by means of "COrruption", you would not be where you are today. Your thoughts would likely be nothing like they are, and you might not be in the best "Emotional and mental shape ever". You are who you are because of Christianity, it still played an integral part of your life rather False or Real.
It is a fact that history and all its components, proceeding exactly as they did, are responsible for my current state of being (and my being in general). After all, if you remove one component from the historical record, who can be sure a ripple effect would not remove you from existence in the present as well? However, it would be foolish to argue that Christianity isolated was the cause of our being. Historical items did not exist in a vacuum--everything has to be taken in context.

[Perndog]

Brandon took the words out of my mouth. The existence of Christianity has influenced my life, indeed, but I have never knowingly applied any Christian teaching to my life that is not shared by dozens of other belief systems. Therefore, there is nothing about Christianity that makes me respect it as being necessary for existence.

And I have most defnitely never applied any religious belief regarding a "soul" or a "spirit," and I am of the mind that "spiritual health" is only another kind of mental health. I do believe in astral projection, the power of the subconscious, etc. etc. but I don't see any reason to elevate these parts of my mind to some mystical religious level. Furthermore everything I've read or heard from Christianity about how to improve my soul has been awful advice for me and more often than not things that would be harmful for me.

[kahljorn]

That is entirely irrelevant, you are arguing semantics. If it wasn't christianity you would be complaining about some other religion, let's call it buddhism. It might not necessarily even be about the idealogy of the religion, just the fact that it has influenced your life and you are pussy-whipped by it(In fact it's more of it's overbearing Historical influences that you dislike). Go ahead and try to deny if Christianity wasn't the dunce, there wouldnt be another. Christianity is just a cancer that needs to be cut, and once removed life will be happy and there will be no suffering? That is so much better than Believing God will make everything A-Okay!
The faccets of my argument still apply, despite semantic overtures.



By the way, I think your "Hate" is misdirected at the church when it would be more happily applied to the British Monarchy, those mary magdolin motherfuckers. Damn I love saying that.
Oh yea, and the fact that you can base most of your "intelligence" off the fact that you can derail christianity "Really well" would tend to include the fact that you are active participants in their religion, in fact, most arguments you would make against it I'm sure somehow fit into your personal philisophy of the World. Learning doesn't necessarily mean someone has to believe everything they are taught, quite the contrary; it's more that you are supposed to take what you are taught and go further with it, your denial of Christianity as per philisophical complications would tend to signify your democratic taste for it as you take a step or two, even if in a maticulous fashion.
You see, it's like a "War" so to speak. When two sides are fighting it out, they are both involved in this "War", but while in it they certainly wouldn't consider themselves a part of the others evil, the same could even apply to our current debate, which I find entirely demeaning- no offense intended.
Specially with your wonderful christian avatar.

[Perndog]

Please note who you're replying to, whether it's one or both of us, so we don't get confused. Who's got a Christian avatar?

I'm going to assume that last post was for Brandon, as there is only one point in it I can apply to myself (since I don't hate Christianity, I don't believe it needs to be eliminated, I think many, many other religions are at the same level only not as popular, and if there is a war between any two sides, I am not a part of it). That point is that you think there is something of absolute worth to be found just in that religion, and I disagree because, no matter how many people, Christian and otherwise have found that worth and applied it, it does not work with me, so it can't be absolute. I acknowledge that a very few of my opinions run almost parallel to Christian thought, but I can also point out pre-Christian sources for them, sources that I find more intriguing and more applicable to myself..

[kahljorn]

I don't think there is something absolute to be found in any-one religion, hence the discussion of components and necessary evils or whatever the fuck I said. Each religion plays a role, so does each concept and action.
The idea is; despite if you reject or accept the notions, they will have an effect on your life/thought-- regardless of what you want.

I was talking about your old antoine lavey avatar..

[Perndog]

I don't understand how you can imagine Anton LaVey being a Christian, I kind of thought the whole world knew who and what he was.

And if in fact that post was directed at me, I object. You pegged me very wrongly, and after reviewing my own posts, I can't find anything that would have brought you to that conclusion without some serious leaps. I am quite indifferent to Christianity and most other religions as institutions, and it offends me that you would imply that I am obsessed with it and that I am proud of my ability to attack it. For one, attacking Christianity is far too easy to consider it an accomplishment, and for another, I should hope I have more pressing issues in my life than to tear apart a belief system that isn't important to me. I will leave that to the teenage atheists, who do center their lives around Christianity just because 1) it bugs them or 2) it's rebellious to badmouth God. That is not me. I am not the one starting threads about how Christianity teaches ignorance or about picking apart the Bible. I am only jumping in and responding to the arguments people make.

I think our misunderstanding is coming from the discussion veering off course. I will readily accept that the existence of Christianity has shaped who I am, but that's a historical thing, and I didn't think that's what we were talking about. The last post of yours before we jumped to this new train of thought referred to people misunderstanding the essence of Christian teachings, to the basic reasons behind them, and to the "spiritual" nature of them. Since it sounded like you believed that Christianity had some good points everyone could take and apply to themselves, I felt it necessary to argue that; since you said everyone misunderstands Christian teachings, I asked you to enlighten me; and since you emphasized spirituality, I told you spirituality means nothing to me. You repeated in your next posts that Christianity has "good things...necessary factors to the overall development of things," which I took to mean there are things in Christianity that everyone needs or can benefit from, and once again, I disagreed.

If you want to talk about how people are influenced by exposure to ideas and by history, we can start another thread and talk about that. The issue I was discussing is whether there are elements of Christianity that have intrinsic value, such that *everyone* can and should apply them. Since, as I said, the only Christian values that I hold either existed before the birth of Christ or are beyond my awareness, I don't find any part of Christianity good or necessary in its own right.

Are we clear? I hope so.

I think I'll be done with this thread now - aside from the tiresome misunderstanding and character attacks, your substandard spelling and grammar are starting to cause eye strain.

[kahljorn]

I was talking in general, sorry your feelings were hurt. I don't direct anything, perhaps you've noticed that by my "Vague Assertions". They certainly weren't directed at you, had they been it would have been much more clear and there probably would have been a, "Fuck you" spotted here and there.
You said Spirituality means nothing, I applied it in a general sense. Not a stretch by any means, but certainly it is appropriate. I'm not here to save your soul, I don't particularly care in that nature.

"Since, as I said, the only Christian values that I hold either existed before the birth of Christ or are beyond my awareness, I don't find any part of Christianity good or necessary in its own right."

I cited a few, they are simple ideas, and yes, they did exist before Christianity; they are concepts that are obvious. Like not to kill. That in fact existed likely before any religion of the present time, and was more likely developed by moral standards based around material value and a certain measure of selfishness. There is likely no concept or philosophy available today that did not stem from something else, likewise there was probably another concept of similar taste floating about the time of it's birth. Buddha, Plato and Christ were all around at a similar time, all with similar ideas. Ironic? Coincidence?
There are many ideas and concepts within the CHristian religion considered commonly misinterpreted, there are certain individuals within "The Church" who would support these claims.

I don't know what you expect, to find God on a message board? Anyway, enjoy yourself. I'm sure we could discuss ideas that are "Solely christian" in nature, but that would be entirely pointless since my grammar and spelling are so horrendous, plus I keep making personal attacks against you.

[Perndog]

Okay, I've changed my mind, I'm not done with this thread. No, you didn't hurt my feelings, you have to be mean something to them first. This is an intellectual debate, and this message board is just a diversion for me (as I hope it is for most everyone). I get very little out of it, and I put in more than I should. I post about Christianity on here because there are so many threads about it and because I know more about it than Islam or Hinduism or what-have-you. I'd be tickled pink if there was a thread for me to discuss the finer points of Satanism, but it seems pretty obvious to me that even if people here knew what they were talking about with that, I would be on my own against the world.

As for what irritated me originally, once I found out you were talking to me not Brandon, your "vague assertions" included, among countless other:

your "Hate" is misdirected

By which you implied that I hated something.

the fact that you can base most of your "intelligence" off the fact that you can derail christianity "Really well" would tend to include the fact that you are active participants in their religion

By which you mocked my intelligence and implied that "derailing Christianity" was important to me.

your denial of Christianity as per philisophical complications would tend to signify your democratic taste for it as you take a step or two

By which you assumed that I deny Christianity rather than ignoring it in favor of a better philosophy and yet there was still something that drew me to it.

your wonderful christian avatar

By which you didn't make any sense at all, but at least established that you were addressing me. I may be splitting hairs, but when I see a whole post full of the word "you" that ends in a sentence that obviously refers to a particular person, I tend assume the other "you"s are directed at the same.

[kahljorn]

I regarded you and Brandon as the same person, but as i said, take it how you will.
Also, you took most of my words the wrong way, maybe that's because I'm such a horrible speller.

[Brandon]

I really, really shouldn't have posted in this thread.