But the homeless need your (tax)money!

[VinceZeb]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09142003/news/regionalnews/5734.htm

NEW YORK'S NEW BEGGARS

By PHILIP RECCHIA

September 14, 2003 -- THEY have cell phones. They've got e-mail. They shop free at Old Navy, McDonald's and Virgin record stores. They have free access to acupuncture treatments, yoga classes and massage therapy.
Welcome to the coddled lifestyles of New York's new "homeless" - young kids who, besides getting pampered by charities, rake in hundreds of dollars a week begging on the street.

Cell-phone toting Dawn, who like most interviewed for this story did not wish her full name revealed, is one of their number, and she's staked out a corner at Fifth Avenue and 14th Street as her begging spot.

A sign at her feet reads, "Hungry, broke and miserable . . . All I want is a warm, safe place to stay until I . . . get back home . . . or back on my feet here."

Dawn told The Post she averages $40 a day panhandling - what the new homeless called "spanging" - but recently a stockbroker handed her $600 cash, saying he'd once been in similar straits.

"I don't spend my money on drugs, so I'm able to afford a cell phone, buy clothes and go to the movies once in a while," she said. "Part of the reason I'm living like this is to get away from the material life."

Each summer, hundreds of the new homeless arrive from as far away as Texas and California, looking for jobs, handouts and companionship. Then they retreat to warmer climates around this time of year, when the first chills set in.



Peaceful, articulate and well-read, they're more likely to resemble Grateful Dead groupies than the freight-train-hopping hobos of yore.

And while these predominately white, liberally pierced and tattooed kids - one of whom told The Post his stepfather is a Wall Street bond salesman - are all, as Dawn has it, getting "away from material life" and sleeping on the streets, they're often still first in line for charity handouts.

The social service of choice for the new homeless these days is a "drop-in center" called Streetwork, a few blocks from the Manhattan Bridge.

It was set up two years ago by homeless youth agency Safe Horizon, after then-Mayor Rudy Giuliani's efforts to clean up Times Square pushed many homeless out of the area.

"These kids tells us, 'This is the life I've chosen,' but in reality they've run away from home because they couldn't conform to Middle America life," said David Nish, associate vice president of Streetwork.

IN addition to offering basics like showers and health counseling, the nonprofit program holds focus groups to help ensure the homeless kids are treated like average American youth, rather than feeling institutionalized.

"If they like a certain brand of clothing or a certain type of food or music, we do our best to provide it," said Nish.

Almost all of the new homeless wear boxer shorts, so the center gives those out instead of briefs.

George, a 22-year-old squatter from Lexington, Ky., told The Post that last Christmas Streetwork gave him $20 gift certificates to Old Navy and McDonald's, in exchange for taking a survey about drug use.

But while the city cares, many of the city workers who deal with the great unwashed believe the coddling should end.

"These kids could work if they wanted - sweeping up, washing dishes or whatever," said a police lieutenant who broke up a group of about 30 gutter punks in Tompkins Square Park last week after four of them staged a concert without a permit.

"But they get free food and clothes all around this area, so they don't have to do anything," the lieutenant said. "I've never heard any of them talk about a job."

A supervisor at East River Park, where many of the new homeless sleep, also has little sympathy for his guests.

He told The Post, "They come over here - sometimes in cabs - and do drugs every night. I'd say that 98 percent of them are on heroin. They leave so many needles around that we've had to hire people just to pick them up."

Karen, a 21-year-old gutter punk from Silverthorn, Colo., takes umbrage at the allegation she and her pals are drug addicts.

"That's bulls- - -," she said. "I've done some hard drugs, like a lot of us around here. But not any more frequently than anyone else our age in New York." She said she's been trying to get a job as a janitor all summer, but no one would even talk to her.

"People here suck," Karen added before crawling back into her sleeping bag and dozing off under the late-summer sun.

THE consolation for Karen and the rest of the new homeless who find our surly city tough going is that a remedy is close at hand, in the form of electronic communication.

Dawn, 21, who comes from San Francisco, says she keeps in touch with her friends by phone and e-mail.

"I buy prepaid phone cards so I can talk to my friends in California and so my boyfriend can find me around here during the day," she said, pulling a squeaky-clean cell phone out from its hiding place in the base of a street lamppost.

She sends e-mails from PCs at Streetwork and public libraries, where she also charges her cell phone.

Dawn left home when she was 13 because her parents were drug addicts. She hasn't spoken to them since.

After dropping out of college, she took an office job, which proved "too rigid and stressful," so she hit the road.

Earlier this, year she squatted in an abandoned building in the Red Hook section of Brooklyn for several months, but it was condemned. Now she sleeps on the streets around NYU.

She's thinking of getting a job as a bike messenger and hopes to be an English teacher some day. But she also says she's in no huge rush to get a job.

Dawn's boyfriend, 21-year-old Tom, is another of the new homeless. He met Dawn in Los Angeles and comes from a totally different family background to her.

The oldest of four children, he grew up on a 200-year-old Victorian estate in Chatham, N.J. and his stepfather sells municipal bonds at HSBC Bank on Wall Street.

Tom left home five years ago after getting kicked out of school for drinking and playing hooky. He remains on speaking terms with his parents, but they no longer give him money.

While passing through Minneapolis last year, he spent the night in jail for giving police a false name. Otherwise, he said, he has no criminal record.

The last job he had was working construction in New Jersey 18 months ago.

Recently, he'd planned to apply to a Starbucks in Manhattan but was sick the day of his interview. He did manage to turn up when the drop-in center distributed some free Virgin records vouchers last Christmas.

Like his girlfriend, he spanges around NYU, though makes only about half as much as she does.

The couple is thinking about going to Philadelphia this fall to find another squat.

"There are 31,000 abandoned buildings down there," Dawn said. "Ideally, we'll be able to live for free."

"I don't find joy in a 9-to-5 gig," Tom told The Post. "I'm kind of happy with the way things are now. And if it ever gets to the point where I'm not, I'll change my life."

[Zhukov]

Whatever happenend to the FREE MARKET?

You should be like me, I don't give money to the poor; it saps their will to riot.


edit: Put 'em in the gulags.

[mburbank]

Gol, Vinth. What do you think about that? I mean, if you can be bothered to lift your meaty fingers beyond a simple cut and paste.

Me, I don't think we can really afford to give any tax money to poor people here in America. There are poor people in Iraq we have to give it to now.

[mburbank]

I wonder if anyone verified this story. I'd hate to see a fine paper like the NY Post fall victim to the same sort of Chicanery that went down at the Times.

[mburbank]

I hope they didn't get their cell phones from MCI. The army has to pay $4000.00 a phone in tax money for those, and you know they get a bulk discount cuase it' an exclusive contract and there was no bid, so it had to be a sweet deal.

Know what part of the story I know for a fact can't be true? The part where a stockbroker gave a pnhandler $600.00 bucks.

[FS]

Good lord! :posh Those dirty beggars are living like kings.

I say, we tax the poor and alleviate the Vince! I mean, me! Let's take back the streets!

[derrida]

These kids are a pretty common phenomenon, particularly in some of the trendier districts in NYC.

The summer punk is the suburbanite and/or middle class white kid who decides it'd be a good idea or, at least, punk as fuck to go live on the street for the summer months and beg for change. The kid who wants to taste the "outlaw" life, but do so with the comfort of either an ATM card or daddy's Visa in his or her back pocket.

That they are constantly begging for change yet seem to have an inexhaustible supply of cigarettes makes them easily identifiable. That they claim to be destitute yet have several shiny new piercings makes them even more obvious.

Indeed, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

These kids aren't freeloaders, they're providing a service to the people (usually tourists) who drop a few bills or coins into the proffered Starbucks coffee cups of these urban entrepreneurs; People only give these kids money because it makes them feel good about themselves, and I'd venture to say that it makes them feel even better when the recipient of their benevolent act is a cute, trendy, white kid and not a frightening, middle-aged, and potentially dangerous minority who smells somewhat of urine.

[Perndog]

There is no way I can sympathize with these kids. I don't care if they found a way to fuck the system, they're assholes in my book.

"Hungry, broke and miserable . . . All I want is a warm, safe place to stay until I . . . get back home . . . or back on my feet here."


So miserable that she spends her (free) money on a cell phone instead of food and that she would rather be a freeloader than get a fucking job.

Each summer, hundreds of the new homeless arrive from as far away as Texas and California, looking for jobs, handouts and companionship. Then they retreat to warmer climates around this time of year, when the first chills set in.

Warmer climates meaning their parents' houses, the other place they can live for free without working.

The homeless programs pander to the bastards' whims, they supply them with SPECIFIC BRANDS OF CLOTHES and McDonalds gift certificates instead of giving them soup and booting their asses to Goodwill for clothes. They are "[helping] ensure the homeless kids are treated like average American youth, rather than feeling institutionalized."

They should fucking be institutionalized. They are nothing but parasites, and if they are treated like "average youth," then the kids out there who aren't incurable assholes themselves will start getting the impression that it's okay to live like that.

"Yeah, let's get away from the so-called material life *wink wink* (actually, we're just going to pretend we're special so they'll give us whatever we want for free)." Gimme a fucking break. >:

[mburbank]

Yes, kids like that suck and any moneys that go to them are not going to people who actually need it.

But that isn't the point of the story. This story isn't even truly about kids 'punking; it. It was written for Vinth and company.

The point of the story is to shore up the already ingrained hatreds of people like Vinth, and to slap another coat of paint on that favorite shiboleth, that the poor deseve to be poor, deserve your scorn, deserve your hate.

Stories like this, and the ever unverified stories of 'welfare queens' dinning on lobster are Bread and Circuses for the Limbaugh set and crafted to draw your ire away from criminals like Keneth Lay, who's crimes impact the economy of a nation, ruins hundreds of lives, and who's greed is boundless enough to be called true evil, and toward some stupid ass kid whos selfishness and shallowness are evident, but even taken together amount to almost nothing.

This story is like the comment Des made about it making folks feel better about themselves for giving coins to obviously well of suburban kids. It makes people who wouldn't loose a dime or an instants sleep over a man in a gutter feel alright about themselves.

Oh, and Vinth, as of today your tax dollars are going to 'faith based' initiatives to help the poor. It's still stealing, right? Or is it all washed clean now?

[AChimp]

To raise money for the poor, I think we should tax all foreign nationals living abroad! ;)

[mburbank]

sell the widows

[Perndog]

For the record, I'd just as soon *all* of the homeless people in the country who survive by public charity were given work to do, or if there isn't any work for them, euthanized or deported. It irritates me that my tax money is given away freely to anyone who can hold their hands out and take it, whether they are truly needy or not. So I guess the story was for me, too.

And regarding their "service," it's fine by me if strangers get a good feeling from being charitable, and I would even respect the beggars if that were their only means of support. But my issue is that these kids are taking great advantage of public-funded aid, which truly is freeloading.

[mburbank]

Oh, my God, another 'my tax money' person. Honmestly, I expected better of you, Pern.

As long as we're euthanising the homeless (and I assume they're voluntarily killing themselves so it won't cost a penny from your pocket) can we euthanize white collar criminals as well? We'd save a whole lot more money, we'd have to killa lot less of them to make back our investment and you might actually see a difference in your tax bill, since the amount you saved might come to more than a percentage point on the dollar.

At least you don't make any nauseating claim to belong to a religion which promotes compassion.

[Perndog]

Okay, it was stupid of me to refer to "my tax money," not least because I don't make enough money to pay more than a few hundred in taxes every year. I should have said "public funds," which I think would be much better spent on people who deserve them. Better?

And white collar criminals. They deserve better than beggars because they have demonstrated possibly productive skills. They should be fined for their crimes (eye for an eye..), taught not to abuse the law, and set on their merry way. If they remain criminals after a couple of good warnings, then euthanize them.

[The One and Only...]

The government should not force charity. Period.

[mburbank]

Much better, though I think we would differ significantly on who is 'deserving' and who is not.

Personally, I think White collar criminals should be made homeless. I think we would also differ on what constitutes 'productive skills'. Kenneth Lay may well have them, but so does a Lamprey.

Pride goeth before a fall, and especially in the current economy, anyone arrogant enough to think that they are not a few paychecks away from disaster either has a trust fund or head trauma. You may be called upon to remember who you disparaged beggars.

[The One and Only...]

I have no problem with charity, I just don't think government should enforce it. Hell, donations to charities are pratically a selling point these days.

I don't have a problem with persecuting white collars, so long as they actually committed a crime e.x. embezzlement, etc. Many times, it's hard to enforce though...

[Perndog]

If you took a criminal who had been able to secure a management position with a corporation, stripped him to nothing but his clothes, and put him on the street, I bet he'd be willing and able to get back on his feet sooner or later. He would save enough money through begging to buy decent clothes, find a job that didn't require a permanent residence (I can name several), and work his way up from there. Unlike the bums who either stick to free aid and don't try to support themselves or who go to job interviews looking shabby and with a poor attitude and then complain about their situation. Yes, criminals are criminals, but these ones are also able to be responsible citizens, and if they can be convinced to play by the rules, they should be able to receive due punishment and start fresh.

I currently only work on campus; with any luck, I've got three years before my paycheck has anything to do with the current economy. And your last sentence didn't make sense....I may be called upon to remember who I disparaged? or how? I somehow doubt that I'll be homeless or make friends with homeless people once I graduate.

[derrida]

I hope my previous post didn't give a false impression of New York City's very real homeless youth crisis.

These statistics from a suppressed 1997 study commissioned by the office of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani paint a very different picture from the one presented by Vince:

From http://www.villagevoice.com/features/9933/kihara.shtml

* The study cites estimates of "15,000 to 20,000 homeless youth in New York City." But "the current system of 191 beds in emergency settings, and 317 beds in transitional settings, provide only a fraction of the number necessary to house all youth in need of shelter."

* More than half of New York's homeless kids under 21 are from the city's own low-income neighborhoods and nearly two-thirds are black or Latino.

* More than a third of 432 street youth surveyed earned money through prostitution. More than half of the young people interviewed considered it " 'somewhat likely or very likely' that they would get AIDS."

* Many programs for homeless teens are ill-equipped to handle the variety of problems they face: "Of the 16 residential programs listed in a directory of NYC adolescent drug treatment programs, 9 could not accept a pregnant youth, 11 a MICA 'medically ill chemical abuser,' 14 a suicidal youth, 10 a violent one, and 8 a cross-dresser. Many street-dependent youth can fall into at least one of these categories."

* Foster care, overseen by the city's Administration for Children's
Services, "is often the first and only housing option for thousands ofyouth who become homeless as a result of family-wide homelessness, deaths of parents, or parental abuse or neglect." But "ACS has closed nearly 400 group home beds since 1995, resulting in a severe shortage of available beds, especially for teenagers entering the system."

[FS]

And white collar criminals. They deserve better than beggars because they have demonstrated possibly productive skills. They should be fined for their crimes (eye for an eye..), taught not to abuse the law, and set on their merry way.

I'm not sure if I'd call a person who generally already has a fair amount of money, then decides he needs more money, then steals said money from either his company or something the general public pays for, "productive". I have a lot less sympathy for such a person than I do for someone who steals out of necessity or begs.

[Dole]

"They deserve better than beggars because they have demonstrated possibly productive skills. " -are you out of your fucking mind? Do you have any idea what that sounds like? So midlle class corporate crime is ok because these people have a suit on and an education?

[pjalne]

Oh my god, if it wasn't for the grammar in that statement, it'd be a Vinceism.

Not Dole, Pern.

[mburbank]

Pern, are you just bored because the I-mockery whipping boy hasn't been hsowing up for work very often recently, or are you actually an arrogant idiot?

You can look around you right now and be certain you'l never be homeless? Why, rich parents? Or are you just that marvelous?

Your prediction that CEO's could be stripped of their credentials and money, dropped in a ghetto and work their way back up again shows a near religous faith, and a very naive and trusting one at that, repalcing Jesus with Horatio Alger.

My guess is you think yourself very edgy indeed, very lupine, a predator amongst sheep. Well I am so impressed, and it's all exceedingly charismatic I'm sure.

You're way too smart to be such a dope, college boy.

[VinceZeb]

Max, you can go fuck yourself, you pious windbag.

I have easily ignored your idiotic attacks and statements that were filled with stupidity, but your baseless and bias attacks on Pern and OAO is downright horrible. All I have seen you do is attack them fiercely because their views deferred from yours. I easily ignore your attacks because to me you are nothing but a faceless elitist windbag who amounts to a zit on my ass when it comes to annoyance levels.

But let’s put the cards on the table right fucking now, Max. Anytime one of these guys’ spouts off ANY type of position that is something you feel is evil, you do nothing but degrade and pour piss in their boots about it time and time again. It seems to me the only person that has a problem with that they are saying is YOU. Why is that, Max? Is it because they are looking towards the stars and the only thing you can do is look to the ceiling of your oh-so-prestigious “museum”?

What do you/are you going to provide for society, Max? You work in a museum and write “comedy” for a couple web sites? Overall, it seems like your existence is based on the “optional” phases of the human existence. We don’t need a joke writer for the world to run and I’m sure no one will cry if your museum shuts down. But these guys that you give shit to on a constant basis are TRYING to learn about the world around them. They are seeing past the liberal clap-trap and trying to form their own opinions. Whether they are opinions I myself care for or do not care for is irrelevant. What is relevant is that every time it is something YOU do not like, you give them a bunch of bullshit. Don’t project your fucking failure of an existence on people who are trying to better themselves and thus the world.

All you have done is attack me and others for their viewpoints about the poor and about the educational system in this world. You sit here with your bleeding heart self and whine about how I “hate” the poor. I have said time and time again that I do not hate the poor; I have said that I hate the parasites that leech off goods and honest charity that is for people who are truly in need. I hate the people in this article for taking money and food and services away from the people, who for the most part were in mental asylums until liberal morons like yourself fought for their right to “be free”, that need it most because they want to be “uber k00l punx” and rebel against “traditional values”. Fuck these bums. They should get nothing but scorn and ridicule from the people who are truly poor and in dire straights. I feel for those people. I do not feel for free-loading punk-ass teenagers. And I don’t feel for people that are buying food more expensive and more plentiful than myself while paying for it with EBT, which for the idiots out there, are electronic food stamps

Why this hatred for the “rich”, Max? Is it because you yourself are not well off and are jealous because you know your choices in life have perceivably moved the brass ring from your grasp? You whine all the time about the “rich” and about the “tax cuts for the rich”. Do you know what our country considers rich in this day and age? It’s around 70,000 bucks. You can look at some of the statistics here:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/top_50__of_wage_earners_pay_96_09__of_income_taxes .guest.html

Try reading some of the articles while you are at it as well. You will learn about how much the “rich” pays, who is considered “rich” and how it affects the people that you claim to “hold so dear”, the middle-class.

Then you have the audacity to whine about your kid’s school district. Guess what? No one fucking cares, Max. If you don’t want to have to worry about your kid’s education, you can 1) send her to a private school or 2) move to a better school district. No one is stopping you from doing one or the other. You can tout your “bad mood” all you fucking want. No one gives a damn. You don’t have a right to give OAO shit because he is concerned about his education. Are you currently in the school system, Max? No, you are not, so you don’t know shit about what is going on. And I’m using Max Logic, so you can understand it better. You want better for your child? Go do something about it. Don’t whine about how the budget costs are crushing your child’s education. If it is so important to you, home school your spawn. Now, I know that your precious museum may crumble without someone there to sweep the floors, but I’m sure they could find someone to replace you in about oh….. 21 minutes.

I could go on about your seething hatred for Bush just because he doesn’t want a socialist utopia or about your many attacks on me because you have nothing better to do in life, but I won’t. Here is the reality of the situation, Max:

You are worthless to society.

Pern and OAO are going to be worth something to society.

You and the rest of your bum-fuck geek retarded-ass lookin’ “friends” on this board can take that to the bank.

[mburbank]

Gol, Vinth, sweet meltdown. Did I 'stwike a nurwve'?



Say, what happened to your site? I really liked that place.

[kellychaos]

Any beggar who's anybody goes to New York. Everybody knows THAT! :rolleyes

[Perndog]

"They deserve better than beggars because they have demonstrated possibly productive skills. " -are you out of your fucking mind? Do you have any idea what that sounds like? So midlle class corporate crime is ok because these people have a suit on and an education?

Crime is not okay. I said they should be punished, very harshly if it fits their crimes. But if the criminals can be reformed they can become normal people.

I did not say that a CEO, stripped of credentials and money and dropped in a ghetto could work his way back up again; I would assume that he would retain his degree(s), if any, and a few business contacts, and I said he would be able to support himself eventually instead of being homeless, not that he would become a CEO again.

Now let's talk about me, since this thread quickly degenerated into personal attacks. I think it's funny how Vinth calls me an incomptetent loser in one thread and now says I'll be worth something to society. I don't really care.

I am a musician, and if I seek a career performing or recording, it will be difficult regardless of the state of the economy. I fully expect to spend at least one summer if not several months or years touring and living in a van, but I will not be begging and I will have a place to come home to. I also realize that if I follow another kind of work (I'm training to be a studio engineer, and am already employed as such at my college) it will be difficult to find a good job and the security of that job may be up in the air. However, while I may not have rich parents, I do have enough siblings and cousins scattered around that if I do go broke I will always have a place to stay and an address while I get back on my own feet. Failing that, I am not above military service, and the Army is always looking for healthy young men. I repeat: I will never be homeless..

I am arrogant. I do see myself, as you quite accurately put it, as a "predator amongst sheep." I am also realistic. I know what can happen; I see the obstacles, and I am confident that when they come up I will be able to deal with them. Don't think of me as some idealistic yuppie kid with his head in the clouds walking toward a cliff.

[Brandon]

All I have seen you do is attack them fiercely because their views deferred from yours. I easily ignore your attacks because to me you are nothing but a faceless elitist windbag who amounts to a zit on my ass when it comes to annoyance levels.
Hello kettle, this is pot.

Why is that, Max? Is it because they are looking towards the stars and the only thing you can do is look to the ceiling of your oh-so-prestigious “museum”?
Funny, I thought conservatives were supposed to be pragmatists, not "star-lookers."

Don’t project your fucking failure of an existence on people who are trying to better themselves and thus the world.
Because anyone who isn't a Republican millionaire is an outright failure, correct?

You are worthless to society.
What, praytell, constitues worthiness to society, Vinth? It sounds like, in your estimation, the only ones worth anything are coporate execs. I always thought that anyone who works any sort of job is worth something to society.

Pern and OAO are going to be worth something to society.
Because they have conservative viewpoints, correct?

[mburbank]

Hey, Pernsy, did you ever think Vinth would be describing you as 'reaching for the stars'? Do you think he recalls any of the other stuff he's said about you or do you guess he can't recall much of anything past a few posts?

Anyway, it was a very impressive hissy fit and I'm glad he's decided to admire you in spite of your Satanism.

Hey waitaminutehere... You don't suppose Vinthy gives a wee tin shit about you or Once and Again, do you? You don't suppose his impassioned deffense of you had more to do with his own injured sense?

Oh, well. Keep reaching for the stars, fellas, that's what I say.

[The One and Only...]

Thanks for ruining this thread.

[mburbank]

har har.

[Perndog]

I think he was jealous that you weren't picking on him.

EDIT: Oh, and if anyone calls me a conservative again I will never forgive them. >: I won't stand to be dropped in the same bin as the Republicans.

[VinceZeb]

It was my thread to ruin

[Brandon]

Oh, and if anyone calls me a conservative again I will never forgive them. >: I won't stand to be dropped in the same bin as the Republicans.
Never considered you one, although Vinth seems to have made you an honorary right-winger for the purpose of bashing Max.

[mburbank]

Yeah, he was kind of desperately trolling around for any excuse at all to fight back since I've been dressing him in a pink layette and pushing him around I-mockery and his own sadly abandoned site in a "Hello Kitty" baby carriage.

It was sad spaz-out, but funny.

[VinceZeb]

Ever get the feeling max that I have just been ignoring you?

But, continue to believe that you are "crushing my spirit" all you what. Whatever gets you through the day...

[mburbank]

Okay.

[CaptainBubba]

Forceable coercion is COOL when it goes to thing Max thinks are nessecary!!

Lets all give our money to the gov. because we all know they know how to distribute it the right way!!

God forbid any of us challenge the idea that the Federal government can threaten us with imprisonment if we don't surrender money we worked for!! And then that the government can give said money to people we don't even know about!!

I'm glad you care about the homeless Max. I'd like to think that most people do as well. However no one, including you, can ever justify a Federal welfare system. Or at the very least the current one.

For the record though, the article in this thread is sleezy and shamelssly attempts to sway me by filling my head with fantasies of attractive teen girl hobos makin babies wit me.

[VinceZeb]

Wow, CaptainBubba said something that made me laugh!

Will wonders never cease?!?

[mburbank]

"And then that the government can give said money to people we don't even know about!! "
-See, now, that's how I feel when 'said government' uses lots more of my money to kill people I don't even know about. I feel worse about that then when they use it to feed and shelter people I don't know about, even if those people don't deserve it, and when we kill people who don't deserve it or otherwise collaterally damage them, then I feel real bad about it. But I still recognize my responsability as a citizen to pay my taxes. Infrastructure, political salaries, largest war machine in the world, mini nuke research and social programs all come out of taxes. Tax laws our written by the representatives we elect in our representative democracy. So, yeah, I guess as long as there's due process and innocence until guilt is proven in a court of law, I pretty much support the governments right to jail folks who don't py their taxes. nd I'd be willing to bet that more of my tax bill goes to things I'm totally opposed to than yours does.

And all you have to do to get Vinth to like something you did is disagree with me. But don't let tht make you feel bad, or like you need to shower right away. Vinth's approval is a force of nature, and not anyones fault. Like a Hurricane, or a backed up leeching field.

[CaptainBubba]

I'll pay my taxes too. I recognize that its my unwanted responsibility. However Its my opinion that alot of them shouldn't be.

Just because I have to do it doesn't mean I'm all for it, much like you (and for the record myself as well) concerning the war effort. I never said I wouldn't pay them.Theres just alot of them I just don't think I should have to.

I'm a follower of the belief that all government should require is enough to gaurantee protection to one citizen from another. It will never be this way but I figure its the job of at least a minority of citizens to strive towards this goal.

And I think Vince was reffering to my later comment on makin babies with hobo teen girls. Thankfully it had no correlation to actual principles, other than the universal notion that attractive teen girls need to make babies with me.