Do you believe in a "Hell"?

[Immortal Goat]

Before I start, let me get this out of the way...

I AM NOT MAKING FUN OF RELIGION IN THIS THREAD!!! I am simply stating my opinions, which were formulated by the facts as they have been presented to me.

I personally do not believe in a hell. The concept of hell was brought into Christianity during the middle ages to keep the poor people poor by forcing them to buy "indulgences". For those of you who do not know what these were, they were "Heaven tickets". You paid a specific amount of money (or crops, as the case may be) in exchange for a guarenteed spot in Heaven. (at least until they needed more money and/or crops.)

Notice how the Jewish society does NOT believe in hell. This is because they were not under the same government as the Christians during the Dark Ages. Hell was invented as a means of control. The reason it is ever mentioned in the Bible is because the Bible was written in the Middle Ages.

Now, of course, these are all my opinions. If there are people on this site that disagree with me, I welcome any to try and convince me otherwise. Who knows, I may agree with you.

[kahljorn]

Some christian guys once dropped a pamplet at my work that said hell does not exist, I forget all the quotes and shit on it, though.

[Helm]

The bible was a constant work in progress for 300 years or so but to say it was written in the middle ages is taking it too far.

Hell can suck my nuts for all I care.

[O71394658]

1. You don't understand the system of indulgences.

2. The Bible was not written during the Middle Ages. Don't know where the hell you came up with that one.

[Immortal Goat]

Maybe not "written", but it was definitely "revised" during that time period. And yes, I do know about indulgences, as I just finished reading about them in school.

[O71394658]

No. They were copied, not revised. Comparisons have been made between post war/Middle Age bibles and pre-Middle Age bibles. Of course minor mistakes exist (like different words placed in), but all of the central ideas and frameworks are exactly the same.

No. I don't think you get the idea of indulgences. I suggest you look at another source.

[Immortal Goat]

Ok, then, numbers guy, tell me. What was the core idea behind indulgences? For that matter, what about Tithes, or even the fucking COLLECTION PLATE?!?! You think I am ignorant of the Christian faith? I have been going to a Catholic school all my life! I used to buy it, now I don't. and it is because of what I have learned. I said I would welcome it if people tried to change my mind, but you gotta give me a little more proof than "I said so".

[Emu]

I don't believe in hell because I don't think it would make a god damn bit of sense.

If God is Omniscient(He knows EVERYTHING, before it happens, after it happens, and while it's happening, EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING)

and

God is Infallable(God CAN NOT BE PROVEN WRONG. EVER. BY ANYTHING. EVER. NEVER EVER EVER. ALWAYS RIGHT.)

and

God is Omnipotent(He can do ANY FUCKING THING HE WANTS. EVER. UNRESTRICTED BY TIME OR ANYTHING ELSE.)

and

We have free will(We as human beings are allowed to make choices concerning daily life and everything; we can choose whether or not to buy a sucker, and whether or not to engage in homosexual intercourse)

then

How does God justify sending people to Hell? Let's consider this logically:

Let's say I steal fifty dollars from the local grocery store and keep it. This is a sin, as noted in the Ten Commandments. Let's say I do it again, enough times that I most definately have enough black on my soul to rival the tar on a chronic chain smoker's lungs.

I chose to steal that money.

However. If God is Omniscient, meaning he knows EVERYTHING before it happens, then, well, he KNEW that I was going to steal that money. "But, Emu," you say, "YOU made that choice, not God." Well, I did. But, God already KNEW I was going to make that choice millennia in advance. He KNEW. And God is INFALLABLE. He can't be proven wrong. So no matter what, if God KNOWS it to be true, IT MUST BE TRUE. Right? Otherwise, God would be wrong, and God would crumble. So do I really have a choice in the matter? How can I change my actions if God KNOWS THAT IT WILL HAPPEN 100% completely absolutely true?

Well, simply, I can't. And The Ultimate Love, the Care Beyond Caring, God, now has to send me to an eternity of torment based on something I had no control over it because Infallable God KNEW it had to happen.

Here's another question: If God is restricted by nothing, omnipotent, and he REALLY cares about me, why doesn't he use his sky pixie magic powers to stop me from going to Hell? He loves me, right? And he has powers, right? Well, then, couldn't he reach into the sands of time and move a grain or two to keep me from committing these acts and becoming A Good Christian(tm)? Of course he could! Unless he's restricted by his own Omniscience(Knowlege of All) and his own Infallability, in which case he is not Omnipotent because he's restricted by something, which is, ironically, himself.

Funny how massive terms create massive contradictions, isn't it?

[O71394658]

Ok, then, numbers guy, tell me. What was the core idea behind indulgences? For that matter, what about Tithes, or even the fucking COLLECTION PLATE?!?! You think I am ignorant of the Christian faith? I have been going to a Catholic school all my life! I used to buy it, now I don't. and it is because of what I have learned. I said I would welcome it if people tried to change my mind, but you gotta give me a little more proof than "I said so".

Ever heard of Purgatory? Indulgences weren't used to gain access to heaven. They were only used to shorten one's time span in Purgatory. The concept that money would get you into Heaven is completely blasphemous, and contrary to the doctrine of Christian faith.

Tithes were used as revenue sources. Usually around 10% of one's income was given to the Church. The Churches in that time were political and economic centers. Much more activity than needed today. Many times, the Catholic Church has been engaged in wars (not the Crusades). Needless to say, running the Church in those days required a lot of money. Tithes were the main revenue source of the Church, just as taxes are the main revenue source of the U.S. government.

Good Catholic school ya got there.

[Immortal Goat]

Very well put, Emu. Now where the hell did I put the tylenol?

[FS]

I think technically, indulgencies were more like forgiveness checks. i.e, you committed adultery, went to the church, paid some money and got a plaque or paper that stated that you were forgiven for your sin.

I believe they had them for all kinds of sins, no doubt the more common the sin, the higher the price.

[Sethomas]

As the integer stated, you can't buy the forgiveness of sins with an indulgence and you never could. The only method of remission of sins has always been the sacrament of reconciliation. An indulgence is any act done to shorten one's stay in purgatory. The doctrine for this has been around since the turn of the 11th century.

Hell was invented as a means of control. The reason it is ever mentioned in the Bible is because the Bible was written in the Middle Ages.

That statement is truly more asinine than anything Vince has ever said. The Bible was not written, in any portion, during the Middle Ages. The New Testament was written in the first century of the common era, though apocryphal literature abounded for centuries more. On your dipshit idea that it was revised in the middle ages, you should learn about a guy named Jerome. In the 390s he translated the Old and New Testaments into vernacular Latin, calling it the Vulgate. This is the version of the bible that was used from that time until the second vatican council. That's not a point of faith, that's raw history.

[ranxer]

hell is working for most any of the major corporations in a third world nation at three - ten cents an hour..

any other hell is fiction to scare people into following the status quo that writes the history and propoganda to keep the real hell hidden behind the glossy parade of lifeless packaging.

just my opinion :)

of course there are well meaning people that believe in the biblical hell, which is fine by me if they aren't walmart shoppers or ignorant of the way most of our profit is made.

[mburbank]

Hell is far too petty a concept to be Divine in nature. Of course, it really doesn't matter wjhat I believe. It's more like what God believes. And what if God is petty by nature?

[Anonymous]

Hell is far too petty a concept to be Divine in nature. Of course, it really doesn't matter wjhat I believe. It's more like what God believes. And what if God is petty by nature?

He did screw Job to settle a bet with the devil. I think.

[El Blanco]

Hell is the absence of God and His grace.

Basically, when you sin, you are putting yourself above God. You are saying, "I really don't need God." So, by sending you the plave He is completly absent from, He is just giving you want you wanted.

[FS]

"the status quo" :lol

[Bennett]

if god was so concerned with what I wanted, I would've received Jetfire for christmas sometime between the ages of 4 to 9.

[mburbank]

the Hell is the absence line of reasoning is the kind of sissified talk that came with modern architcture churches and priest playing guitar at youth groups.

Here's what I want to know, is the absence of God's grace literal hellfire, is it being in a lake of fire for all eternity.

And for the record, it's the ternity part I find oetty, not the punishment or removal from grace part of it. I mean, eternity is a hell of harsh punishment for crap you pulled during your four score and twenty. It just seems mean.

[Spectre X]

really, how can we know that the bible wasn't slightly altered by the corrupt priests and popes and cardinals and bishops of the dark ages? I mean, they were in latin, which Martin Luther acted out against, having it printed in German etc. etc. etc. but the thing is, the priests could have altered what they wanted or said what they wanted the masses to believe what the bible said.

and numbers guy, indulgences could be bought to find forgiveness for all your sins. killed someone? meh, here's an indulgance for it if you give me money. you want to go to heaven? Alltight, then kill that person for me, you'll be forgiven.

seriously, the priests in the dark ages royally screwed to poulace over by telling them that the bible said what they wanted to say so that they could controll the people.

[Anonymous]

Here's what I want to know, is the absence of God's grace literal hellfire, is it being in a lake of fire for all eternity.

Maybe the suffering part comes from the fact that you know, irrefutably, that God exists, and that you know he'll never be a part of your life, period.

[El Blanco]

Its emptiness, it is darkness. You are in this lone, solitary existence with no hope, love, or comfort. Its solitary confinement for all eternity.

Max, does that really sound soft to you?

[Anonymous]

Its emptiness, it is darkness. You are in this lone, solitary existence with no hope, love, or comfort. Its solitary confinement for all eternity.

Max, does that really sound soft to you?

It sounds like my freshman year of college.

[Immortal Goat]

Ever heard of Purgatory? Indulgences weren't used to gain access to heaven. They were only used to shorten one's time span in Purgatory. The concept that money would get you into Heaven is completely blasphemous, and contrary to the doctrine of Christian faith.


Yeah, I've heard of Purgatory, and guess what. IT'S A CROCK OF SHIT!! The Catholic Church has even admitted it. They invented it to ONCE AGAIN sell indulgences. I may have mis-spoken when I called them Heaven Tickets, but they sure were not anything other than the Medieval version of the "Get Rich Quick" scheme.

[kellychaos]

Why does Hell sound so much like the Hades in Greek mythology?

[Immortal Goat]

Because that is what the Christian hell is based on. Many things in the Christian faith have their roots in mythology.

[kellychaos]

Shhh ... I was asking the rest of the class ... i.e. semi-rhetorical.

[Immortal Goat]

Sorry, should I raise my hand next time, Professor Kelly?

[kellychaos]

I find the melding of pagan religions in the Mediterranean with Judaio-Christian beliefs and interesting topic, that's all.

[El Blanco]

Why does Hell sound so much like the Hades in Greek mythology?

Maybe because God inspired the Greeks to think about it that way.

[Immortal Goat]

Thats a bunch of shit and you know it, Blanco. If god had inspired the greeks to think about it that way, then it would have inspired them to think about itself that way. Instead, we are left with a poly-theistic mythology that bears almost no resemblance to Christianity. (however, it makes about as much sense, and is just as probable.)

[El Blanco]

Or, maybe God reveals Himself slowly. Maybe, our minds aren't far along enough to handle too much info at once.

Thats why we go from "kill your enemy and all he lives with" to "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek". Because God wants us to do this slowly.

Think about it. When you were a kid, did your parents just throw every little bit of info at you? Or did you work a lot out yourself and have them push you in the right direction along the way?

[Bennett]

maybe it's because of SCIENCE. i.e. they both knew that the earth's core was a molten mass, and they both viewed hell as being underground... hence the flaming caverns.

Yes I'm being a smartass, but my point is that almost all major religions have some similarities. The arguements for this cut both ways.

[Emu]

Stuff like this is why I'm atheist. :D

[FS]

You're forgetting that at the time, they thought the earth was flat. Of course there were volcanoes, but people probably didn't think the bottom of the world was magma anymore than they thought it was gold or any other stuff they could find in the ground.

[Sethomas]

Yeah, I've heard of Purgatory, and guess what. IT'S A CROCK OF SHIT!! The Catholic Church has even admitted it. They invented it to ONCE AGAIN sell indulgences. I may have mis-spoken when I called them Heaven Tickets, but they sure were not anything other than the Medieval version of the "Get Rich Quick" scheme.

For dealing out the term "shit" so loosely when refering to reason you don't grasp, you sure know how to eat your own. Both Augustine and Jerome wrote extensively on the existence of Purgatory. Judas Maccabeus made reference to it IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Try again, dipshit.

[Perndog]

Christianity is based on mythology? Christianity IS mythology. It's got some of the same kinds of stories as the Greeks did, some of the same imagery, some of the same character archetypes. And it is believed by probably the same percentage of today's population as was Greek religion in its time. This isn't an argument against the believability of Christianity (I don't do that anymore unless people shove bibles in my face), just something I'd like to point out.

As for hell? Gosh, I hope not. If God's out there (though I really, really doubt it) and he's really that vengeful, I'm definitely one of the ones on his shit list. :faint

[kahljorn]

God has a good memory :(

[kahljorn]

"you cannot petition the lord with prrraaayer.

Also I read through this thread, and the guy trying to be smart about omniscience missed the more important factors.

Him knowing things isn't a key.

Him being omnipresent and omnipotent AND omniscient is the important thing. It means he is every, every single thought and idea that goes through your head. People sit around thinking God can read your mind because he's a person with a fat old brain, but he's not. "He's" just a summary of all our ideas, and all matter. Therefore, God is us.

Therefore God sinned and was wrong and whatever bullshit you threw into it.

Without including the oneness factor:

As God is Omnipotent and omnipresent, it means nothing can occur WITHOUT GOD(which is the actual definition of Hell, to be without God or out of his site or something) it means God must have MADE them occur.
Unless the concept of freewill comes in by God somehow allowing humans to make decisions outside of his power-- but then God isn't "all-powerful". Also, in that case it would be referred back to us being mini-Gods if we are capable of such "Creations".

[Bennett]

FS- I said I was being a smartass about the science bit. While I do think that there is a little truth in it, my point (?) was more just to say that all religions interlock in some ways (some more than others). in norse mythology, south american mythologies, in tibetan buddhism hells are described as being an underground place (i know only for certain that in tibetan buddhism that the hells are filled with fire, as well). It makes me think that there is something more than just these two religions having similarities, that it says something about the way we used to view our world and the universe.

[kellychaos]

Christianity is based on mythology? Christianity IS mythology. It's got some of the same kinds of stories as the Greeks did, some of the same imagery, some of the same character archetypes. :faint

You can probably throw in Zarathustra, the Kemetic religion, and a few other mediteranean pagan religions (their stories, allegories, miracles, ect) into the mix to make the list complete.

[ranxer]

i thought the reason the biblical stories have bits and pieces of other cultures and myths is because of the borg like nature of christianity.. assimilation does not mean total obliteration, the stories in the bible were at one time the news of the day trasmitted as audio in the streets..

ie new culture assimilated - new stories of thier gods being eaten/defeated by the 'winner' gods/god.

[kellychaos]

I've read several sources that something similiar in respect to religion only the motivation is slightly difference. For example, in the Roman Catholic religion, many of the pagan rites, ceremonies, and holidays were absorbed from various pagan religions because including things from the old faith served as a sort of lubrication for conversion into the new faith. Even some of the pagan holiday dates were used to kind of place catholicism into the framework of the old ways. That's not to say that the tenets of the Bible are not true or the events spoken about didn't happen ... just maybe the where and when and, to some extent, the how may be slightly skewed.

[Immortal Goat]

And to add to that, Kelly, did you guys realize that Christmas is NOT Jesus' birthday? It is really a pagan holiday that was assimilated into Christianity so the Christians could celebrate their religion and not be persecuted, because EVERYBODY was celebrating at that time of year.

[Perndog]

Duh. Dead horse. Move along. Christmas is a celebration on a now-arbitrary date of Jesus's birth on an unknown date, and few if any Christians will claim that he was actually born on December 25. Everyone still celebrates at that time of year, even non-Christians.

Why don't you go ahead and point out that Chanukah (choose your spelling) is a rather minor Jewish holiday that has been blown out of proportion by modern Jews mainly to pander to their poor whiny kids and all the other Jews that are jealous that Christians have such a huge celebration that they're not a part of? I wonder..

One more topic to toss in the Christianity-bashing pile and no new insights to make that pile smell better. :rolleyes

[Helm]

Hades was supposed to be nothing like the Christian Concept of Hell. It amazes me how you all accepted this bit of information without at all checking up on it. Hades was not about constant suffering or eternal solitude. Hades wasn't even 'punishment' at all. The Elysian Fields were reserved for people who had completed their initiation to the Kawir and Dionysian misteries, and they weren't a 'reward' either. Kelly's overestimating his understanding of those concepts.

[Immortal Goat]

Hmm, I may have misread my mythology, then. I was confused, thanks for straightening that out for me, Helm.

[Snatchtastic]

if god was so concerned with what I wanted, I would've received Jetfire for christmas sometime between the ages of 4 to 9.

Dope, my brother still has his JETFIRE but is arm comes off really easily.

And about Hell and Heaven. I'm skipping both and taking a repeat on life.

[kellychaos]

Hades was supposed to be nothing like the Christian Concept of Hell. It amazes me how you all accepted this bit of information without at all checking up on it. Hades was not about constant suffering or eternal solitude. Hades wasn't even 'punishment' at all. The Elysian Fields were reserved for people who had completed their initiation to the Kawir and Dionysian misteries, and they weren't a 'reward' either. Kelly's overestimating his understanding of those concepts.

I never said that Hades was a place of punishment. I only meant that the scenery (and location of ) was similiar. From there, it's all just twisted bastardization. There are also other borrowed things from greek mythology such as horned creatures being tricksters and deceivers. Lo and behold, the popular vision of Satan is a horned, cloven creature. The general view in greek mythology is of ground dwelling creatures or things emanating from the earth as evil - they recalled the older pagan mythos that had since been disgarded but were still being practiced by the country/mountain people. Suprise! The snake represents the devil in christian theology. I don't recall mentioning the Elysian Fields at all.