daphne's and drumming's vegan thread

[glowbelly]

started just for you two ladies.

defend thyselves!

and know that i would join you both if i didn't love milk and cheese so much!

i am a vegetarian, though... A REAL ONE. no fishies or chickens for me.

[Daphne]

:lol

There's no need for defense. Most people in their right minds don't give a shit what someone's DIET is. My husband eats meat, and I certainly don't give him any grief over it.
The only people who do are silly little attention whores who 'moo' at you when they eat a hamburger and think they are being clever. These are usually the same people who tell people with purple hair etc. that halloween is in October.

[glowbelly]

i like the "how can you do that?" response when i tell people i don't eat animals.

i never really know how to answer that. i usually just shrug, but i think to myself, 'i could ask the same of you.'

[MetalMilitia]

Ok i suppose there is nothing really wrong with bieng a vegan or vegitarian but meat is the nicest thing ever. Vegitables are only nice if you eat a big piece of roast or something shortly after.
Also wtf are vegans supopsed to put in sandwitches.. just a piece of lettuce with no butter or anything?
And how can you eat cereal without milk?
Thinking about it, what the heck do you put in you tea? Tea with no milk tastes god awful.

[Daphne]

Read a book. And then learn to spell. I thought you were a Brit! You're supposed to be smart.

I like rice milk on my cereal, it tastes exactly the same on cereal (not so good in tea, but then I always drink my tea black anyway even when I wasn't vegan). And I eat Yves cold cuts in sandwiches and tomatoes. In this day and age, you aren't missing out there's lots of great tasting alternatives. And kosher margarine has no dairy but tastes the same (to me, anyway).

It's really not that hard, but if you like eating meat then go right ahead.

[Zero As A Limit]

i like the "how can you do that?" response when i tell people i don't eat animals.

i never really know how to answer that. i usually just shrug, but i think to myself, 'i could ask the same of you.'

I actually say that as a response, not in a cheeky way, but to point out the redundancy of such a question.

[MetalMilitia]

"Read a book. And then learn to spell."

I did read a book the other day but i doubt it will help me unless your next question is "How does 3Dc compression work?" or "What is a normal map?". And i usually can spell ok but its my day off and i have copious ammounts of weed lyeing about.

I thought you were a Brit! You're supposed to be smart.

LoL you've never been to england have you.

[Big McLargehuge]

Grilled portabello mushroom sandwiches are heaven :0

[Esuohlim]

It seems like too much of a chore to be a vegan. What with the the not eating pretty much everything and finding suitable substitutes and blahh... :(

[Daphne]

I don't find it to be a chore, unless I'm at a steakhouse or something, but I can see how people would see it that way. I don't need to only shop at healthfood stores or anything, most of what I eat is at the grocery store.
But it's not for everyone, of course.

[Ninjavenom]

I'm grateful for all the :meat in my life. :D

[nothing4buddha]

being vegan isn't all that hard. rice milk eh? i'll have to try that stuff out :X i drink a lot of silk vanilla soymilk .... it's good stuff :D

[Skulhedface]

I have no issues with vegans or vegetarians, only the militant ones that scream "MEAT IS MURDER" at you.

...vegetables were once alive too...

[whoreable]

i almost have more against the people that dont have any reason at all. If people want to save animals or whatever thats cool with me, just dont give me the bullshit that its so much healthier.

[DeadKennedys]

I'm not here to insult, but what do vegans eat? There are certain necessary elements in dairy and mean products that you cannot obtain by other stuff alone.

[hawaiian mage]

I'm like a wanna-be vegan. I usually don't eat meat or dairy just becuase it tastes really bad and I hate it so much.

But I'm not going to stop eating fudge becuase it has milk as an ingredient. And I still eat seafood and beef becuase it tastes damn good.

I should really feel guilty about the beef. Those cows have some of the most inhumane living conditions to get the meat right, have their heads crushed with sledgehammers, and eat enough food to feed a family for months. But it's just hard to care when no one else notices and the meatballs make the speghetti so much better.

I'm not here to insult, but what do vegans eat? There are certain necessary elements in dairy and mean products that you cannot obtain by other stuff alone.


There's nothing inside meat or dairy that didn't first come from a plant. There's nothing in meat or dairy you can't get elsewhere. Just dairy is animal produced liquid food for developing young, and meat is pure stuff-that-animals-are-made-of, so you're body can skip a few digestion steps when it eats this stuff instead of plants.

[Hobo Renee]

What are these certain things that you can only get from meat and dairy?

Protein, Vitamin B? All can be found in soy products and complete proteins such as beans and rice.

Calcium? Found in such vegetables as spinach and broccolli.

Everything that you get from non-vegan foods can be found in vegetables since the cows and their milk and the chickens and their eggs all lived off of plant life before you ate them. And yes I know that cows and chickens have different diatary needs than humans so don't give me that jive.

And I'm a vegetarian not a vegan. But I gotta represent fo' mah homies.

[hawaiian mage]

Renee! We made the same post! High five!

Also, the correct answer was that there are things you can only get from eating vegitables. Since animals use different materials in their bodies and excrete the ones they don't use you don't get everything your own specific body needs in sufficient proportions! The american solution is to make up for the difficiency by eating more, and we all know how THAT worked out.

[mubert]

Vegans cant even eat bread without having to substitute an ingredient...I could become a vegetarian, and live of pasta, but I could never step into a vegan's shoes..in daphne's (or buddha's) words, I'm a big fan of cow tit milk.

[Anonymous]

Vegans cant even eat bread without having to substitute an ingredient...I could become a vegetarian, and live of pasta, but I could never step into a vegan's shoes..in daphne's (or buddha's) words, I'm a big fan of cow tit milk.

From the looks of your picture, you're big fan of anything deep fried that can shove into your gaping piehole. Go eat some more Twinkies tubby.

:lol

[bigtimecow]

vegans are for faggots

[AChimp]

Cows killed by headcrushing aren't destined for human consumption (probably dog food). The more trauma the animal experiences, the lower the quality of the meat, therefore the lower the price they can sell it for. A single bullet in the brain or a guillotine is better.

[Terra]

Yeah but just before they go down the last chute they are aware of what is happening, or at least know "something" is going to happen to them and they flood their system with adrenalin. This is what goes into the meat (along with the steroids and crap they have been fed since birth) and ultimately poisons us. Slaughterhouses give off certain odors that alert cattle, pigs and chickens to danger.

That and besides the fact that we are eating flesh that we really don't need to eat and probably shouldn't for our longevity.

[mubert]

From the looks of your picture, you're big fan of anything deep fried that can shove into your gaping piehole. Go eat some more Twinkies tubby.

:lol

:becomefatgoth

[Ninjavenom]

I don't smoke, i don't drink, and i don't do drugs, i'd like to pretend my voracious appetite for red meat won't end my life 30 years too early, dammit. If it was good enough for Lief Erikkson, it's good enough for me. :posh



PS rape and pillaging excluded. o .o

[Terra]

The rape and pillaging is the best part of being a Meatasauras.

[ThisIsWitty]

Terra's all about rape.

[Captain Goodtimes]

I don't mind what you vegans, eat, just as long as I don't have another one giving me shit for buying cheese at the grocery store, o.k.?

[Captain Goodtimes]

One woman tried to persuade me to not buy meat and cheese because "Bush eats it all the time, and that's why he is a bloodthristy tyrant" :(

[Daphne]

Well like I've said, NO ONE likes those kinds of vegans. In fact, no one likes those kinds of PEOPLE. I don't like people telling me what I should eat, all I ask is the same in return :)

I'm not here to insult, but what do vegans eat? There are certain necessary elements in dairy and mean products that you cannot obtain by other stuff alone.

One of the only thing vegans need to worry about is B12 (ok, and protein but there's tons of options for that) and they just have to make sure they eat lots of leafy greens or take suppliments if they are lazy (which I am from time to time, I'll admit).

And mubert, I eat bread all the time, so I have no idea what you're talking about. White bread, too.

[mubert]

To make the dough for bread, you need "chicken fetuses"

[MLE]

pure vegans that don't take certain supplements because they're made from animals. this will turn into a b12 deficiency (as Daphne mentioned in her last post). the only way that b12 can be absorbed into one's body is with some sort of animal fat. this is literally the only way it can be absorbed. the only vitamins that will work (when speaking on b12) have animal fat in them in some form, but these are the same vitamins that pure vegans won't touch, if they're completely strict and anal retentive.

you may be taking vitamins to supplement your system that include b12, but that doesn't mean it's not going right back out of you. the only people who can live on a diet void of b12 are the people who culturally haven't eaten it for a long ass time, and they've adapted their bodies. for the general person, though, if you're a strict vegan, your body will start to get weaker by about age 30ish (generally). there are some exceptions, but the general public reacts this way.

i'm not trying to dissuade anyone here from being vegitarian or vegan, because i was one for 3 years. i still had milk and eggs (what is known as an ovo-lacto vegitarian, for those of you who are going to say 'buy you weren't a real vegitarian', yes i was. i just wasn't vegan). i stopped because my body was craving some mad cheeseburgers, and i felt myself being a lot weaker. now i'm just more careful in the amount of meat i eat, and sometimes i forget to eat it all together.

my point is that if you're vegan to the point that i have mentioned, you might want to consider taking the regular vitamins, not the vegan ones, because you'll probably get really weak. (this isn't an issue if you still eat some form of animal protein, such as eggs or milk).

[davinxtk]

You ladies are both aware that you can't wear normal shoes or eat many kinds of peanut butter, crackers, and junk foods, right?
If you want to fly the flag of "vegan" I'd better not catch you wearing shoe leather or eating anything with Gelatin (extract of boiled hooves) in it.

Honestly, are you still calling yourselves vegan?


(this isn't meant as an attack, just a question from a slightly omnivorous being)



I don't tend to eat plants unless they're an ingredient of something else.
My food eats plants. You eat what my food eats.
I should eat you. Rotisserie style.

[Captain Goodtimes]

Unless they are eating their shoes, what they are wearing on their feet has nothing to do with questioning their vegan stands, more like their animal-rights stands.

Are you eating your shoes Daphne and Buddah?

[Jixby Phillips]

Also wtf are vegans supopsed to put in sandwitches.. just a piece of lettuce with no butter or anything?
And how can you eat cereal without milk?
Thinking about it, what the heck do you put in you tea? Tea with no milk tastes god awful.

Jesus, I dont eat sandwiches with butter, cereal with milk, and I dont drink tea at all, and I'm not a fucking vegan. I don't understand how ANYBODY could question ANYBODY else's eating preferences.

[davinxtk]

Unless they are eating their shoes, what they are wearing on their feet has nothing to do with questioning their vegan stands, more like their animal-rights stands.

Are you eating your shoes Daphne and Buddah?


You are complete fucking idiot and clearly have no idea what you are talking about. A vegan uses no animal products and no products tested on animals. This includes make-up and shampoo.

At least use Wikipedia or Google before you try and argue with me, shithead. I'm not one to go spewing things out of my ass, and you very clearly shouldn't either.

[Captain Goodtimes]

Dry your eyes, I'll use google:

Definition: [n] a strict vegetarian; someone who eats no animal or dairy products at all

You said you aren't a vegan right? Cause you eat and spew alot of bullshit, an animal bi-product.

Of course there are other definitions of that, maybe one of them has the shoe part there, some might not. It doesn't make them any less vegan, you blubbering child.

[Hobo Renee]

Strict vegans don't eat honey, or refiended sugar--the whitening process uses bone ash from cows to filter the sugar. Also, I don't understand how you can't cope with the fact that wearing or using leather products could somehow conflict with the vegan, or vegetarian lifestyle. If someone is so appaled by the thought and act of eating another living creature's flesh, or using the milk intended for their childern or their unfertilized eggs they most likely would also feel uncomfortable wearing the skin of the same animal that they did not want to die so they could eat it. For vegetarians and vegans the whole issue is making sure that fewer animals die to accomodate humanity's appatite, food or material-wise, since many vegetarians also avoid using leater products. Of course most vegans tend to stay away from wool and lanolin as well since the sheering process can be done in cruel ways. Yeah, I know that sheep need to be sheered so don't even bring that up. Anyway, it's hard for me to explain since each individual has their own set of ethics that they incorporate into their vegan/vegetarian lifestyle. Some vegans will not use film because it contains gelatin in it and thus will only use digital cameras, and then there are people that are vegetarians for the sole purpose of losing weight. I can't really explain why I became a vegetarian. I was reading some vegan cookbooks at the time because the way that ingrediants are substitued fascinated me and the more I read the more I decided that my eating habits were really poor and I needed to change them. At the beginning I was mainly vegetarian to lose weight, which I did, not because I was starving myself, but because I wasn't able to eat the same junk food that I did before, hamburgers and hot dogs, etc. After a while I became more conscious of animal rights issues, which I was more comfortable to look into since I didn't have the guilt associated with eating meat. So now my vegetarianism is for a combination of heath and animal issues. Still, I don't know if I have the detication to both of those causes to move onto becoming a vegan.

Wow, that was quite a rant so the majority of you probably just skipped over it. Good show.

[Skulhedface]

One would think the non-use of leather shoes and such would be an animal-rights argument, not a vegan\vegetarian one.

I can see where the parallels would be confusing, but I have yet to meet a vegan who went barefoot because shoes had leather in them. Perhaps that means the few vegans I know personally are hypocrites, but that's another matter.

The simple fact is, that for you to eat, something else must die. After all, even if it's just a broccoli sprout, that broccoli still had to die before it went in your mouth. This can NOT be avoided unless you stick to a solid diet of ice cubes.

I don't condone the mistreatment of the animals slaughtered, but the simple fact remains, to avoid dying of starvation, something else must die to feed you, be it plant or animal.

Now if your issue is with the mistreatment of animals, that's a different story..

[mubert]

Do you guys use Elmers Glue, and eat gelatin?

[Hobo Renee]

One would think the non-use of leather shoes and such would be an animal-rights argument, not a vegan\vegetarian one.

I can see where the parallels would be confusing, but I have yet to meet a vegan who went barefoot because shoes had leather in them. Perhaps that means the few vegans I know personally are hypocrites, but that's another matter.

As I was saying with my point on ethics, it's really up to the individual to decide what they are trying to stand for. But if someone is saying, yeah I'm vegan, and then eating something non-vegan, then they're just a liar.

The simple fact is, that for you to eat, something else must die. After all, even if it's just a broccoli sprout, that broccoli still had to die before it went in your mouth. This can NOT be avoided unless you stick to a solid diet of ice cubes.

I personally don't believe that everything is as alive as everything else. Things that have either brains or central nervous systems (jelly fish lack brains but are still living organisms) are alive. Plants and fungi like mushrooms don't have brains, they can't think, nor due they have a central nervous system, so they can't feel pain. While it would be silly for me to say that plants aren't alive, when I take a plant out of the ground it doesn't have anxiety like a cow in a slaughter house, and it doesn't feel the pain of a chainsaw seering into it's flesh either. So I can comfortably say that the death of the poor innocent defenseless broccoli is secondary to the cow's (or whatever animal) death and I feel no guilt about the circumstances. So, in general the whole argument about the plants dying to feed humans is completly flawed because it is the decomposed animal matter which provides the plants with all of those yummy nitrates that keep them growing so we can eat them and then feed them to eat them until we blow ourselves up.

Uh oh, muberts trying to trick us. Watch out Peta Pals!

[davinxtk]

Dry your eyes, I'll use google:

Definition: [n] a strict vegetarian; someone who eats no animal or dairy products at all

You said you aren't a vegan right? Cause you eat and spew alot of bullshit, an animal bi-product.

Of course there are other definitions of that, maybe one of them has the shoe part there, some might not. It doesn't make them any less vegan, you blubbering child.

Where does this "dry your eyes" and "blubbering child" business come from? Maybe you're misidentifying condescending trash-talk. Or, perhaps, you're exhibiting the same sort of ignorance you did when looking for your definitions.
Go punch "vegan" into Google. Punch "I'm Feeling Lucky," just for the sake of argument, and you get a site called "Vegan Society."
This is obviously the first site listed. It supports what I've said.

Now please, just shut your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about. It will save both of us a bit of trouble.

[FS]

My sister went through a period that she tried to be a vegetarian. She never bothered anyone else about it (though there is still a "meat is murder" sticker on her closet in the parental home, but it's not like she stuck them on someone else's property). She couldn't stick to it, maybe partially because it was in a period when my dad was trying against his nature to do all the cooking, and he just didn't give her enough alternatives to meat, and now I'm pretty sure she's back on meat, though I think she's still not a big meat-eater.

Point is, even though she never said more about it to other people other than "I'm a vegetarian", she's taken ridiculous amounts of shit from people for it. It's like just saying it pisses people off. People always have to either question it, treat it like some moronic superstition, or most of all: try to push the person into admitting that they're not a perfect vegetarian (or vegan). It's like they're just looking for that one person who'll actually lecture them about meat, even though they may have never met one.

It reminds me of how people immediately get hostile in the presence of a Christian or someone otherwise religious.

[Captain Goodtimes]

Dry your eyes, I'll use google:

Definition: [n] a strict vegetarian; someone who eats no animal or dairy products at all

You said you aren't a vegan right? Cause you eat and spew alot of bullshit, an animal bi-product.

Of course there are other definitions of that, maybe one of them has the shoe part there, some might not. It doesn't make them any less vegan, you blubbering child.

Where does this "dry your eyes" and "blubbering child" business come from? Maybe you're misidentifying condescending trash-talk. Or, perhaps, you're exhibiting the same sort of ignorance you did when looking for your definitions.
Go punch "vegan" into Google. Punch "I'm Feeling Lucky," just for the sake of argument, and you get a site called "Vegan Society."
This is obviously the first site listed. It supports what I've said.

Now please, just shut your moth when you don't know what you're talking about. It will save both of us a bit of trouble.

"Of course there are other definitions of that, maybe one of them has the shoe part there, some might not. It doesn't make them any less vegan"

I'm wasn't calling you a liar davin, I found that definition about not wearing leather and fur. There are several definition for vegan(as several definitions of any word ever created, did you know that?), some include the fur part some don't. Some follow one or the other. Fo example the definition of the Term "Baby" the dictionary states:

Noun 1. baby - a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk; "isn't she too young to have a baby?"


Now my definition of Baby
One when faced with conflict gets into fits of anger and seems to lose their own point, blubbering shit like a child would.
see Davinxtk

Anyone is free to follow whichever one of those definitions.

You also told me to shut my mouth, funny, do you dictate out loud what you are typing? Is that "bit of trouble" a sore throat while you gelp out your all knowing bullshit. I'm sorry Davin, have a lozenge, you big baby.

[dreaddi]

But what is the point of not drinking milk, apart from being allergic to it or not liking the taste? I thought that cows had to be milked, because it would be unhealthy for them not to.

[glowbelly]

humans are the only mammals who choose to drink milk in adulthood.

from peta:

Cows only produce milk to feed their babies. Farmers make sure that cows raised for their milk have a calf each year so that they’ll continue to produce milk. These calves are taken from their mothers when they are just a day or two old so that humans can have the milk. If farmers didn’t take calves from their mothers, the calves would drink the milk, and there would be no need to milk cows.

from moomilk:

Can all cows make milk?

The cow must be a mother before she will produce milk. A newborn Holstein calf weighs about 100 pounds and can walk within one hour after birth!

[glowbelly]

oh and MLE? i found your post to be super interesting, so i did some research. i found this link:

http://www.veganhealth.org/everyvegan/

is that along the lines of what you were thinking, or no? just wondering.

[davinxtk]

"Of course there are other definitions of that, maybe one of them has the shoe part there, some might not. It doesn't make them any less vegan"

I'm wasn't calling you a liar davin, I found that definition about not wearing leather and fur. There are several definition for vegan(as several definitions of any word ever created, did you know that?), some include the fur part some don't. Some follow one or the other. Fo example the definition of the Term "Baby" the dictionary states:

Noun 1. baby - a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk; "isn't she too young to have a baby?"


Now my definition of Baby
One when faced with conflict gets into fits of anger and seems to lose their own point, blubbering shit like a child would.
see Davinxtk

Anyone is free to follow whichever one of those definitions.

You also told me to shut my mouth, funny, do you dictate out loud what you are typing? Is that "bit of trouble" a sore throat while you gelp out your all knowing bullshit. I'm sorry Davin, have a lozenge, you big baby.

You make me wish that there was some form of testing or licensing to be done as a prerequisite to breeding. Spare harping on the abysmal error that this was not enacted before your birth, hopefully it will be before you find a slag that you can charm (or drug) long enough to reproduce.

Not only is your argument flawed in the fact that you don't recognize the difference between a vegan diet and a vegan lifestyle, but you also repeatedly bring up this "whining baby" issue that you really seem to enjoy.
Fact is, you argued with me without knowing what the hell you were talking about. While that isn't necessarily the end of the world, I'm a rather impatient person and took to swearing immediately.
This doesn't mean I'm crying, and it doesn't mean I'm a baby or a blubbering child. At no point did I engage in fits of anger or lose my own point.
Cut the bullshit. You're a complete fucking tool.
(Condescension, trash talk. Not whining.)

Also, pulling shit like the "shut your mouth" semantics might win you points with the kiddies and total net n00bs, but you're not getting anywhere with me. Not even under my skin.


Arguing with you is almost tiringly monotonous. You're trying not to lose face to me in a sea of people who don't give a shit about either of us, really. The trouble is that any literate person present can see that you're only borderline on making points, and even then they're unresearched and almost totally incorrect. Beyond that, you don't even come up with acceptable (or applicable) insults.

You are wrong, Captain Goodtimes, and you're an ignoramus to boot.

[Carnivore]

I don't even need to articulate my views on this subject. They're well known.

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on :meat

[davinxtk]

Oh, and:

glowbelly (9:07:15 AM): you are a feisty little bitch sometimes
glowbelly (9:08:06 AM): daphne is one of the biggest animal lovers i know
glowbelly (9:08:09 AM): just so you know


I didn't mean to come accross as being rude or even harshly questioning either of you. That first post was meant to be humorous, and I was actually sincerely wondering.


The rest of them, however, were directed at Captain Jackass over here, and any hatred that might have leaked into those posts should remain dried and encrusted where it is.

[Spectre X]

Someone from my vacation job said that they once had a girl work with them who was a vegan but used an entire bottle of castor oil every day.

I found this quite hilarious.

She also started crying when she found out that my coworker's family bred big rabbits to kill and eat for Christmas.

[Helm]

I do not drink alcohol, do not smoke or do drugs. For various reasons I try to live as free of addiction as I can. And good food is certainly an addiction, so I eat less and not based on what tastes good but what (I've been told) the human organism needs so as to work well. I do eat meat for high concentration on protein. I am mentioning this because I am going to try to explain why I am not a vegeterian and I do not want to come off as this guy who has made a whole ethical concept so as to defend his dear meat eating habits. I don't particularily like the taste of most meat. So I'm just saying, the ethics came first.

My main issue with the 'meat is murder' thing is the ethical leap of faith people make when they consider the sledgehammer to cow head scenario. Obviously a violent way to die, in human terms. Humen are sentient beings aware of their own mortality on an abstract level, and to violently end one's life is considered immoral by popular ethics. As I understand it, this happens because people instinctively know that pain is bad, and when they see violence they project themselves in the position of the one being hurt and so deduct that pain is wrong 'generally'. Many will argue a more complicated moral base for their beliefs, but from my experience, when you strip away the bulshit, the basic axiom of most morality stems from human pain, and the avoidace of it. I have issues with this line of thinking too, because my personal morality is not based around the instinctual fear of pain. But that's a different story and for the sake of the argument, let's say that I agree pain, for any sentient being is bad for said reasons.

But to the best of my (layman, obviously, but I've done my share of research) knowledge, the vast majority of animals have no demonstrated anything but the most basic biological memory and no signs of self-awareness. So no matter how gruesome a sledgehammer to the head might seem on a very primordial level (where as we said, pain is bad etc), I ethically see no reason to say the same for an animals. If they're not self-aware they're just biological mechanisms not unlike plants, and I have no problem with the utilizing of all the objects and such mechanisms earth offers for the substantial benefit of mankind.

Animals are not self aware. However, there's no question that animals feel pain. But can any of us quantify the feeling of pain sans self-awareness? For people, pain is inherently tied with the concept of self. Morality itself stems from the interaction of sentient beings, so we can not make any solid theories about the morality of inducing pain in a biological system. We have to move away from the 'first impression' that any act of violence induces and classify violence in terms of violence against what. If killing an animal is morally the same as dissasembling a computer for the further usage of it's parts, then I don't care how bad it makes me 'feel' watching said killing happen. I'll get over it.

[Daphne]

You ladies are both aware that you can't wear normal shoes or eat many kinds of peanut butter, crackers, and junk foods, right?
If you want to fly the flag of "vegan" I'd better not catch you wearing shoe leather or eating anything with Gelatin (extract of boiled hooves) in it.

Honestly, are you still calling yourselves vegan?


(this isn't meant as an attack, just a question from a slightly omnivorous being)



I don't tend to eat plants unless they're an ingredient of something else.
My food eats plants. You eat what my food eats.
I should eat you. Rotisserie style.

It's not 'meant as an attack', but you end it saying you should eat us? You're a moron.

I haven't worn leather OR silk since I was a vegetarian LONG before I was a vegan. I don't wear wool, use film, use glue or eat honey, either. And I certainly don't eat gelatin. I also avoid refined sugar AND I read the ingredients on everything I buy to make sure there are no animals in them (including vitamin D3). I don't do anything half-assed and if you want to try to 'catch' me then feel free, because you won't.

It is however, impossible to be 100% cruelty free. If you want to be a dick about it, then vegans can't ride bikes or walk on concrete or eat ANYTHING because a bug or small animal might have died to make it (i.e. in the harvest of grains). However, I do the best I can which is more than most people do and I feel good about myself. I also, unlike you don't push my choices in everyone's fucking face.

You're the only one here waving a flag, and it's got a huge asshole on it.

[Daphne]

Ok upon having read that David was joking in his post, I take the asshole remark back and I'm sorry I was bitchy :)

heh heh, touchy vegan bitch!

[Carnivore]

I hate the term cruelty-free with a passion. Life isn't cruelty-free.

[camacazio]

I like Carnivore posting in the Vegan thread. It's almost poetic.

[hawaiian mage]

In India there's a religious group known as Jainism. They wear scarfs around their mouths at all time so as not to inhale anything, and they carry brooms around with them and constantly sweep away in front of them so as not to step on anything. They also do not eat meat, fish, or even vegitables when harvesting them would kill the plant. Meaning they only eat fruits and harvest leaves from plants sparingly.

They feel that there is no god and everyone is responsible for their own well being. The only way to end the perpetual circle of life and death is to reject it, no longer be one with it. And so they kill nothing in their entire lives. Nothing.

Beat THAT.

(You could also live a life of killing nothing by eating artifical foods made from modified petroleum. Like laffy taffy. Or mountain dew.)

[kellychaos]

Being self-aware made us believe we are above the other animals who kill animals, although we are animals ourselves. It also convinced us that we are intelligent enough to find means to nourish ourselves without killing other animals, although our path of evolution has molded us into omnivores. Damnedest thing, that conscience.

[Daphne]

It's not a competition, you anus, I don't have to 'beat' anything.

I hate the term cruelty-free with a passion. Life isn't cruelty-free.

Which is why I said it's impossible to be cruelty-free.

I get the feeling that most of you just see the word 'vegan' and get all upitty and defensive and rude, without reading anything anyone says.

[ernasty10050]

yeah, and in http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/245000/images/_249680_sacp_flag_150.jpg

[kellychaos]

If your belief is so strong that you've basically changed your whole lifestyle around it, I doubt that anyone here is going to talk you out of your decision by what they perceive as a logical argument or clever turn of phrase. This is merely a discussion wherein people express their views and not a particularly enjoyable one if people choose to vent their feelings by attacking others such as yourself. Let's try to stay constructive, polite and intelligent.

[hawaiian mage]

Hey, I'm on your side!

[davinxtk]

I'm still hungry, by the way.

[Daphne]

haha, I know but saying 'beat that' didn't make you come off that way.
It's something I hate about vegans/vegetarians when they are like 'well, I don't even have PETS so I'm better than YOU' or if they do and (shudder) make their animals vegan as well (something I am AGAINST 100%). The whole 'beat that' attitude, 'vegan-er than thow' bullshit.

And low and behold, Kelly made an excellent, intelligent post! If nothing else, that's a wonderful thing to come out of all of this.

[hawaiian mage]

I only said it becuase you pretty much CAN'T beat that.

Unless you lived in a bubble. I suppose fighting off invading bacteria counts as killing, too. Gotta keep them out of your body so you don't kill them in self defense.

[Helm]

if you're trying to say that even the strictest vegan eventually makes the choice to kill something when it's too damn inconvinient not too, yes, we get it.

[Skulhedface]

I don't deny vegetarians their right to whatever they want to eat, so a nonconfrontational vegetarian/vegan who won't chastise me for eating meat is OK by me.

My argument on the previous page (somethign must die for you not to) wasn't directed to anybody, per se, just a way to point out that "meat is murder", but anything you eat was basically murdered (though it may be less gruesome to some people because plants don't convey a visible means of pain). All I want is a little consistency. Nobody's perfect, but I demand my militants to be non-hypocritical.

PS Though parts of this are directly pulled from her post and responded to, I like Hobo Renee. I'm not trying to start a fight, just a little intellectual discussion.

[nothing4buddha]

im the bestest vegan of all i photosynthesize :rolleyes

[FS]

Photon-thief.

[Skulhedface]

Then you die, someone eats you, and the circle goes on.

I could have dropped the "then you die" part, but then it'd be a Loveline post.

[nothing4buddha]

oh lol good one :rolleyes

[Daphne]

Nobody's perfect, but I demand my militants to be non-hypocritical.

Lucky for you, no one here is militant. :)

[Skulhedface]

I know. Thank you Daphne :)

[DeadKennedys]

I agree with Helm. I also think that it's wrong to kill animals if you're not going to eat them, because that's just wasting. I also think it's wrong to torture animals.

[Helm]

oh shit I better turn vegeterian right now

[mubert]

Buddha, dont you fel ANYTHING when you lay a slab of meat on a sub sammich? Doesnt it bother you in the LEAST BIT to do so, when youre a vegan?!

[nothing4buddha]

it bugs me a lot, i always give ppl less meat than im supposed to :X

[mubert]

I KNEW IT! GUARDS, GET HER :undercoverbrother

[Jixby Phillips]

what is it with recent group of awful new people attributing cliched, old-as-dirt quotes or phrases to current movies and tv shows?

[glowbelly]

it's YOUR fault, mister >:

[nothing4buddha]

d'oh :( i went to the doctor and they said im having massive fluid loss cos of lack of protein and i might not be able to be vegan anymore cos i could get really sick and im already anemic :X

[ziggytrix]

It reminds me of how people immediately get hostile in the presence of a Christian or someone otherwise religious.

People don't like being proselytized. I don't get hostile around Christians unless they come up to me with loaded questions like "so what Church do YOU go to" - and it's something every non or formerly religious person in the American South has to deal with and actually I don't usually get hostile, I ususally just leave. And honestly, it's such a rare occurrence that someone gets really bad about it, but when they do, it prejudices you against the next dozen religious folk you meet. :/

But I always throw hot dogs at the vegans - because the One True God appreciates the gesture. :troutslap

[mubert]

Uh, Jixby, I've NEVER SEEN undercover brother, thats not a quote from it. HERE :UNDERCOVER THERE DOODLER

[ziggytrix]

d'oh :( i went to the doctor and they said im having massive fluid loss cos of lack of protein and i might not be able to be vegan anymore cos i could get really sick and im already anemic :X

sucks to be an vegetarian living in omnivore's body, eh?

[Anonymous]

EAT! EAT! RED DEAD MEAT!
EAT! EAT! RED BLOOD MEAT!

[nothing4buddha]

i might have to go back to being vegetarian :( the only thing i might be able to eat now is like cheese. milk/eggs just gross me out

[mubert]

MUBERT9: dont you like eat tofu or get soy or something to make up for the lack of protein?
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: yeah but my body is just being weird and i guess its not absorbing a lot of it
MUBERT9: man that sucks fat indian infected balls
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: i have a high metabolism so it burns the protein fast so i need a lot more protein than the average joe
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: werd ;(
MUBERT9: >: THATS THE PROBLEM
MUBERT9: I DONT
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: its either drop the vegan thing, get sick, or get a fucking IV :-(
MUBERT9: well, you might need to ingest some cow tit fluid
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: i dont think i can
MUBERT9: hell thats what im gonna call it from now on
MUBERT9: err
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: lol
MUBERT9: lemme see
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: i think the only thing i might be able to handle is cheese :/
MUBERT9: doesnt fish have protein?
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: there is no way in hell im eating meat
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: i would throw up so bad
MUBERT9: fish isnt that bad
MUBERT9: is it?
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: i'd barf everywhere :/
MUBERT9: EVEN WITH SUSHI?!
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: yah
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: i've only eaten fish once in my life and it made me very sick
MUBERT9: well, i know that eating about 40,000 unborn salmon fetuses DOES sound kinda barbaric
MUBERT9: but hey
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: o_o
MUBERT9: theyre yummy
MUBERT9: im going to hell if gods a vegan
MUBERT9: huh
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: lol
MUBERT9: whatev im gonna go be a nerd and post this conversation to exploit you
DIS LOCATEDSHLDR: ok

[Daphne]

Sorry to hear that Drumming, is there any way you could try eating more nuts/tofu if it's just protien you're lacking in?
Still, better to listen to a doctor and be safe. It's not good if you're gettting sick :(

[MLE]

glowdear, this is more what i was thinking:
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/vegetarianism_myths_02.htm


as i said: the correct form of b12 cannot be absorbed without eating some sort of animal byproduct as well. i learned this from several teachers in my high school, and also researched it afterwards. it's probably the scariest myth out there in the vegan world, and scarier that close to no one knows it's a myth that you can still get b12 from veggies.

i just want you girls to be healthy. i'm probably going to go back to semi-veg. i might go back to veg again afterwards, but i doubt it. i can't go more than three or so weeks without feeling tired. it's very difficult to work enough protein into my diet. if any of you girls have suggestions, PM ir IM me ;> i'd like to be able to be veg agan for a time. i enjoyed it. i felt a lot healthier without red meat, but then again, i love rare steak. there are some things that are just so hard of a decision. :(

[Carnivore]

The Red Sox lost in front of my very eyes, so I'm in a bad mood tonight >:

Which is why I said it's impossible to be cruelty-free.

You still used the obnoxious term cruelty-free. You could have said it's impossible to completely adhere to a vegan lifestyle. Just having that phrase in your vernacular costs you a point or two.

it bugs me a lot, i always give ppl less meat than im supposed to :X

You should be fired immediately. If your ludicrous values prevent you from doing your job correctly, find another job.

d'oh :( i went to the doctor and they said im having massive fluid loss cos of lack of protein and i might not be able to be vegan anymore cos i could get really sick and im already anemic :X

Just because your mind says a vegan diet is right doesn't mean your body agrees. You can't synthesize that warm, fuzzy feeling you get from saving animals into proteins :P

[Anonymous]

I'd have to concur. If you gave me less meat on my sandwich because of your own eating preferences, I'd have to hammer-punch you in the clavicle.

[FS]

People don't like being proselytized. I don't get hostile around Christians unless they come up to me with loaded questions like "so what Church do YOU go to" - and it's something every non or formerly religious person in the American South has to deal with and actually I don't usually get hostile, I ususally just leave. And honestly, it's such a rare occurrence that someone gets really bad about it, but when they do, it prejudices you against the next dozen religious folk you meet. :/

In everyday life I don't see it that much, because people of course tend to stick with people who hold roughly the same values - mostly it's attempts at getting me spontaneously converted by characters at the mall or trainway station.

On the internet it's a whole different story though. Someone only has to say "I'm a Christian" or in this case "I'm a vegan", and it might even be entirely on topic, but there's always a few ready to leap forward and treat the person like they need to apologize for the bad apples of their faith. They prod them into a corner with questions to, dependant on the situation, either prove that the Christian can't be a perfect Christian, or the vegan can't be a perfect vegan.

I'm not saying that that's what everyone does, because there's been plenty of civilized exchange of information in this thread, and it's shown that people can ask normal questions to vegans. But some just have a knee-jerk reaction that makes them think "Oh. Vegan/Christian. (S)He's going to try to convert me. Better put my defenses up."

[Dole]

d'oh i went to the doctor and they said im having massive fluid loss cos of lack of protein and i might not be able to be vegan anymore cos i could get really sick and im already anemic :X

There are readily available vegan protein supplements (in powder form, just add to water or juice)...I use one, cos its the cheapest and tastiest and good for muscle growth, but I am not veg or anything.

[Skulhedface]

People don't like being proselytized. I don't get hostile around Christians unless they come up to me with loaded questions like "so what Church do YOU go to" - and it's something every non or formerly religious person in the American South has to deal with and actually I don't usually get hostile, I ususally just leave. And honestly, it's such a rare occurrence that someone gets really bad about it, but when they do, it prejudices you against the next dozen religious folk you meet. :/

In everyday life I don't see it that much, because people of course tend to stick with people who hold roughly the same values - mostly it's attempts at getting me spontaneously converted by characters at the mall or trainway station.

On the internet it's a whole different story though. Someone only has to say "I'm a Christian" or in this case "I'm a vegan", and it might even be entirely on topic, but there's always a few ready to leap forward and treat the person like they need to apologize for the bad apples of their faith. They prod them into a corner with questions to, dependant on the situation, either prove that the Christian can't be a perfect Christian, or the vegan can't be a perfect vegan.

I'm not saying that that's what everyone does, because there's been plenty of civilized exchange of information in this thread, and it's shown that people can ask normal questions to vegans. But some just have a knee-jerk reaction that makes them think "Oh. Vegan/Christian. (S)He's going to try to convert me. Better put my defenses up."

While this is somewhat true, since the American south was mentioned and I happen to live in it, here's the perfect example of militant Christians reinforcing their beliefs:

When I drive to work, a 20 minute drive, I pass by no less than 5 billboards asking me if I've found Jesus, that I will be burning in hell if I didn't, that I NEED to go to First Baptist Church right now and save myself!

When I flip on the TV, I see no less than three local commercials every couple of hours telling me that this guy's taekwondo academy sets a religious example and discipline and that they are 'on fire for Jesus', or that Jesus wants me to buy Home Furniture's futons (and since they have Jesus' endorsement, to buy futons anywhere else is HERESY!)

...Surprisingly, for a state called "Sportsman's Paradise", which for some reason has more hunters per capita than almost any other state, I do know a surprising amount of people who've turned vegetarian, and my questioning of it only goes as far as to ask "Is it a dietary thing?", in which case the answers are almost universally affirmative.

[Daphne]

You still used the obnoxious term cruelty-free. You could have said it's impossible to completely adhere to a vegan lifestyle. Just having that phrase in your vernacular costs you a point or two.

Ah well, I'm not losing any sleep over it ;)

glowdear, this is more what i was thinking:
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/vegetarianism_myths_02.htm


as i said: the correct form of b12 cannot be absorbed without eating some sort of animal byproduct as well. i learned this from several teachers in my high school, and also researched it afterwards. it's probably the scariest myth out there in the vegan world, and scarier that close to no one knows it's a myth that you can still get b12 from veggies.

i just want you girls to be healthy. i'm probably going to go back to semi-veg. i might go back to veg again afterwards, but i doubt it. i can't go more than three or so weeks without feeling tired. it's very difficult to work enough protein into my diet. if any of you girls have suggestions, PM ir IM me ;> i'd like to be able to be veg agan for a time. i enjoyed it. i felt a lot healthier without red meat, but then again, i love rare steak. there are some things that are just so hard of a decision. :(

Yikes that's creepy. Thank you for posting it though.
I just had a blood test, so we'll see about my iron etc when the results come back. I wish I could find a farm that treated their chickens well so I could eat eggs again. I've honestly thought about getting my own as a pet for that very reason :/

[Carnivore]

Ah well, I'm not losing any sleep over it ;)

And therein lies the problem :|

[MetalMilitia]

I'd have to hammer-punch you in the clavicle.

:lol lmao im so stealing that saying.

[Daphne]

Carnivore, I don't post in threads where you talk about eating meat and put you down, so why do you feel the need to be so pushy about your beliefs? You like meat, you eat it and that's great for you, but why do you care so much that other people don't? If we like animals, and choose not to eat them, it's just more for you, right?

If there were no vegans, you'd have nothing to bitch about, so you should thank us ;)

[MLE]

Yikes that's creepy. Thank you for posting it though.
I just had a blood test, so we'll see about my iron etc when the results come back. I wish I could find a farm that treated their chickens well so I could eat eggs again. I've honestly thought about getting my own as a pet for that very reason :/

i found the entire article (http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm), but i don't like the intro or the undertone. it starts out with a scare tactic of having miscarriges because of malnutrition. i don't think any of the vegans or vegitarians that are posting here have put that little thought into their diet, but this article does have useful information. i would have posted a better article if i had found it, that didn't have the scare tactic bullcrap.

the "myths" it talks on are as follows:

Meat consumption contributes to famine and depletes the Earth's natural resources.
Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.
The body can convert omega-6 fatty acids into omega-3 fatty acids as it needs.
The body's needs for vitamin A can be entirely obtained from plant foods.
Meat-eaters have higher rates of heart and kidney disease, cancer, obesity and osteoporosis than vegetarians.
Saturated fats cause heart disease and cancer, and low-fat, low-cholesterol diets are healthier for people.
Vegetarians live longer and have more energy and endurance than meat-eaters.
The "cave man" diet was low-fat and/or vegetarian. (i don't know where they got that myth, as i've never heard it.)
Meat and saturated fat consumption have increased in the 20th century, with a corresponding increase in heart disease and cancer.
Soy products are adequate substitutes for meat and dairy products.
The human body is not designed for meat consumption.
Eating animal flesh causes violent, aggressive behaviour in humans.
Animal products contain numerous, harmful toxins.
Eating meat or animal products is less "spiritual" than eating only plant foods. (same with this one)
Eating animal foods is inhumane.


this is a small summary that's at the bottom of the whole long thing. i tried to cut out the unneeded comments in the excerpt i took:

As a cleansing diet, vegetarianism is a good choice. Several health conditions (e.g., gout) can often be ameliorated by a temporary reduction in animal products with an increase of plant foods. But such measures must not be continuous throughout life: there are vital nutrients found only in animal products that we must ingest for optimal health. ...
"Biochemical individuality" is a subject worth clarifying. Coined by biochemist Roger Williams, PhD, the term refers to the fact that different people require different nutrients based on their unique genetic make-up. Ethnic and racial background figure in this concept as well. ... A diet that works for one may not work as well for someone else. As a practitioner, I've seen several patients following a low-fat, low-protein, high-carbohydrate diet with severe health problems: obesity, candidiasis, hypothyroidism, leaky gut syndrome, anaemia and generalised fatigue. Most of these people have been vegetarians. Because of the widespread rhetoric that a vegetarian diet is "always healthier" than a diet that includes meat or animal products, these people see no reason to change their diet, even though that is the cause of their problems. ...

Conversely, some people do very well on little or no meat and remain healthy as lacto-vegetarians or lacto-ovo-vegetarians. The reason for this is because these diets are healthier for those people, not because they're healthier in general. However, a total absence of animal products, whether meat, fish, insects, eggs, butter or dairy, is to be avoided. Though it may take years, problems will eventually ensue for these people. The reason for this is simple evolution: humanity evolved eating animal foods and fats as part of its diet, and our bodies are suited and accustomed to them. One cannot change evolution in a few years.

When it comes to good nutrition ... humanity has been consuming animal products and saturated fats for thousands of years as part of its diet. ...


this also has all the resources listed at the bottom of the article if you're wondering on credibility.



also, as a sort of disclaimer, i like all you girls, and i think you should be able to eat how you want to. the reason i'm posting this is to make sure you're informed while doing so.

[Daphne]

Thank you again, but here's a quote from the link you posted:

Regarding Dr. Byrnes' second myth, I agree that vegans have a difficult time getting any vitamin B12, and it is possible that if a known essential nutrient is missing from the diet, others that are unknown may also be deficient.

However, based on the current science, B12 is the only known missing nutrient, and it can easily be found in eggs, dairy, and fish, and only small amounts are needed. If someone wants to be a vegan, based on the evidence to date, it is wise for them to take supplements of B12 for safety, and they can find all the other known required nutrients in their diets.

One study shows that vegans can get B12 from a seaweed, but it is hard to assume that this is completely reliable source (Suzuki H, Serum vitamin B12 levels in young vegans who eat brown rice. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo) 1995 Dec;41(6):587-94). In that study, vegan children showed no signs of B12 deficiency (although it can take years to develop) and there was no difference in their serum B12 compared to omnivore children. I would not personally rely on this source of B12.

The conclusion is that while vegan diets are more difficult to practice healthfully, the diet I recommend, which is mostly vegetarian, whole, natural foods (mainly vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, seeds, and nuts), with small amounts of organic eggs, dairy and wild fish, are maintainable, healthy, and well documented in medical literature.

Michael Janson, MD

I do indeed take supplements, and like I said I'm pretty healthy ;)
If a doctor told me I needed to eat eggs, then I would of course, but I'd prefer not to.

I know lots of unhealthy vegans, too and I know unhealthy omnivores. It's *hard* to do a vegan diet, but it's not impossible.

[Carnivore]

Carnivore, I don't post in threads where you talk about eating meat and put you down, so why do you feel the need to be so pushy about your beliefs? You like meat, you eat it and that's great for you, but why do you care so much that other people don't? If we like animals, and choose not to eat them, it's just more for you, right?

If there were no vegans, you'd have nothing to bitch about, so you should thank us ;)

Such threads are few and far between, if you can find one at all. I can think of no such thread in recent history.

I really don't care if you're vegan. I consider it unnatural, but do what you want.

Using terms like cruelty-free, however, implies that those who don't subscribe to a vegan lifestyle are cruel. And a vegan withholding meat from a non-vegan while working in a restaurant is basically forcing your beliefs on others. It would be like me dipping your tofu in pig fat.

My life philosophy is that you can do whatever the hell you want so long as it doesn't adversely affect another person. You can smoke so long as I don't have to inhale it. You can be a religious extremist so long as you don't push your beliefs on me. You can own a dozen assault rifles so long as you don't shoot at me. You can be a vegan so long as I can continue to eat meat without being bothered.

[glowbelly]

nobody was bothering you.

you came in here saying that you were bitchy or something because you were tired and attacked daphne for using a term that she believes in.

you bothered yourself.

so settle down and go take a nap.

[MLE]

as i said in my first post on the subject, you can certainly take the supplement, but it has to have a certain enzyme in your stomach for it to be processed, and that enzyme isn't there if a certain animal product (i'm not sure what) isn't eaten at the same time. some pill supplements do work, but it's because they have a form of that animal product in them, and strict vegans won't take it anyways. i certainly agree that b12 is the only known nutrient that's missing.

also, i wouldn't worry too much about the b12 thing at the moment. if you end up with a deficiency, it can be turned around pretty easily. it's just a pain in the butt. it can take years to develop, or just a few months. it depends on the person. later on, i'm sure you're going to have to supplement your diet, but it can take years before the need arises.

the article i posted is more for reference so you know you're getting what you need, and not trying to change your minds on anything. as i said before, i just want you all to be healthy.

[Carnivore]

nobody was bothering you.

Don't presume to tell me what bothers me.

[Daphne]

Using terms like cruelty-free, however, implies that those who don't subscribe to a vegan lifestyle are cruel. And a vegan withholding meat from a non-vegan while working in a restaurant is basically forcing your beliefs on others. It would be like me dipping your tofu in pig fat.

I see what you mean about 'cruelty free' and I apologize for the implications. I didn't see it that way. I don't think people who eat meat are cruel, but I do wish that animals in slaughterhouses were treated better.

I also agree with what you said about withholding meat (sorry Drumming!). If you don't like it, don't work there, but don't do things like that.

Off topic, I made my husband a steak for valentine's and he made me vegan fudge. It was like the gift of the magi ;)

[Carnivore]

Then I hold no animus towards you.

[glowbelly]

*sings carni a lullaby*

[executioneer]

WINKY FORUM >: