Obama to fund stem cell research

[pac-man]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090309/...ama_stem_cells (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090309/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_stem_cells)

"President Barack Obama is ending former President George W. Bush's limits on using federal dollars for embryonic stem cell research, with advisers calling the move a clear signal that science — not political ideology — will guide the administration."


Fuck yeah.

[Colonel Flagg]

About fucking time, too.

As a self-described science nerd (I have a PhD in Chemical Physics, for christ sakes) the former administration's attitude toward science and technology gave me a fucking migraine every time they espoused a new "directive" - such as "why not use the existing stem cell lines, there are 60 after all." This is tantamount to being asked to do cutting edge nuclear research using geiger counters and phosphors. Which is to say, you can't get there from here.

But G-Dub knew, he KNEW that all those science types were all a bunch of worrywarts - it's why he surrounded himself with the likes of Turd-Blossom. To take the burden of DETAIL off his back so he can get back to Crawford.

Sorry, I'll stop now. :(

[Kitsa]

As someone whose spinal cord crapped out on her early, I wholeheartedly endorse gubmit-funded research.

[ZeldaQueen]

Woot!

Here's hoping a cure for Parkinson's will follow shortly (or as shortly as stuff happens in the world of medicine).

[pac-man]

About fucking time, too.

As a self-described science nerd (I have a PhD in Chemical Physics, for christ sakes) the former administration's attitude toward science and technology gave me a fucking migraine every time they espoused a new "directive" - such as "why not use the existing stem cell lines, there are 60 after all." This is tantamount to being asked to do cutting edge nuclear research using geiger counters and phosphors. Which is to say, you can't get there from here.

But G-Dub knew, he KNEW that all those science types were all a bunch of worrywarts - it's why he surrounded himself with the likes of Turd-Blossom. To take the burden of DETAIL off his back so he can get back to Crawford.

Sorry, I'll stop now. :(

No need to apologize; you're spot on, Colonel. One researcher interviewed in the article said something like "We've got 8 years of science to catch up on." I just shook my head when I read that. Bush pandered so hard to his Christian constituency it's pathetic. How it's okay to sacrifice lives for a war that benefits nobody, but not for research (if you even consider an embryo a life; different conversation there) that benefits everybody is ludicrous, IMO. I'm a firm believer that God has no place in policy, and idiots who vote along those lines sicken me. Poor old John McCain had to add that fucking bimbo to his ticket just to pander to the same group. And still we've got Rush Limbaugh hoping the president fails, because as Frank Schaeffer said, "They'd (Limbaugh and ilk) rather take our whole country down and be proved right, than be patriotic Americans and stand up and do the thing that every American who loves this country would do right now; which is to support the president whether you voted for him or not."

And this just doesn't benefit America. It's for the good of the world and our future. We're talking spinal cord injuries and illnesses, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and a laundry list of conditions that could possibly be repaired/cured. This is one of my favorite things the Obama Administration has tackeled thus far, and I applaud him for it.

[El Blanco]

with advisers calling the move a clear signal that science — not political ideology — will guide the administration."

Bullshit. It will always be about politics.

have a PhD in Chemical Physics,

isn't that a redundancy?

[pac-man]

I read "political ideology" as "religion." Anything that happens in the political realm is about politics.

[BurntToShreds]

How is humanity supposed to progress if we use potential human beings as a commodity? I mean, with adult stem cells, you won't have to deal with religious activists...

[Kitsa]

There are stem cells in the roots of your hair.

[Zhukov]

Human beings already are a commodity. You've never had a job?

[pac-man]

How is humanity supposed to progress if we use potential human beings as a commodity? I mean, with adult stem cells, you won't have to deal with religious activists...

For me, I can't presume how humanity is progressing or will progress. Anybody who wants to read the bones or glance into their crystal ball for me can feel free. As Zhukov pointed out, humans are a commodity. If I wanted to change that, I'd start by helping people who are out of a womb who are being exploited around the world for the gains of people with bad intentions.

What I can presume (based on what smart guys say) is that embryonic stem cells have the potential to help people who are suffering, whose quality of life is substandard, and who burden their families. Not saying that all people with the conditions stem cells can help aren't satisfied with their lives, but if I lost the use or control of my limbs or mind or what have you, I would want to regain use/control of them.

Religion should never, ever dictate government policy (especially in a country that has no official religion), and if you do believe in an all-powerful, omniscient god, then let him handle things. You think he's going to put the spark of life into cells that he knows aren't going to grow to maturity? I don't. God gave us the power to choose, to invent, to improve our lives, and to find ways to improve the quality of our lives.

[Colonel Flagg]

isn't that a redundancy?

Nope. You can get a BS or an MS in Chemical Physics. Not that many people would want to. :\

How is humanity supposed to progress if we use potential human beings as a commodity? I mean, with adult stem cells, you won't have to deal with religious activists...

The problem, B2S, is that adult stem cells are non-differentiable. Stem cells from hair follicles can be made to grow hair, but will not make a bit of a difference in the quality of life of one who suffers from Parkinson's Disease. Embryonic stem cells are at the other end of the spectrum, and can be "teased" into nerve ganglia, alveoli, brain, pancreatic and adrenal tissue - the whole shebang.

As for the commodity aspect, you are wonderfully naive. Most basic research in its infancy used techniques and materials that we wouldn't even dream of using in our enlightenment today. For example, do we still use mercury vapor to develop photographic plates? My point is that while the research will need to be carefully monitored by bioethicists, the research is a means to an end. Eventually, researchers will be able to find embryonic stem cells in existing tissue, or perhaps can learn to "grow their own" in a petrie dish, or use some totally new and unforeseen technique that we can't even fathom at this point in time. Without an impetus to start the process, however, the projects can never get off the ground.

What I can presume (based on what smart guys say) is that embryonic stem cells have the potential to help people who are suffering, whose quality of life is substandard, and who burden their families. Not saying that all people with the conditions stem cells can help aren't satisfied with their lives, but if I lost the use or control of my limbs or mind or what have you, I would want to regain use/control of them.

Religion should never, ever dictate government policy (especially in a country that has no official religion), and if you do believe in an all-powerful, omniscient god, then let him handle things. You think he's going to put the spark of life into cells that he knows aren't going to grow to maturity? I don't. God gave us the power to choose, to invent, to improve our lives, and to find ways to improve the quality of our lives.

A-fucking-men, brother!

[Tadao]

From what I understand (which means it is totally wrong) embryonic stem cells are in the process of creating a whole body where as adult stem cells are localized to a specific duty.

[Kitsa]

Yep. I was just mentioning it because a lot of people seem to believe that stem cells are only in embryos.

[Tadao]

I get the feeling that most, if not all, of us don't actually know enough about stem cell research to have a clear opinion on it. I for one would love to see a discovery channel episode on it. I need visual education nowadays.

[pac-man]

Well, the results with lab rats have been nothing short of amazing. I agree that a TV special would be great to educate people who doubt that there is potential in stem cells.

Lab rats w/ Parkinsons:
http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2008/04/stem_cells_redu.html

Lab rats w/ heart damage:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003855008_stemcells27m.html

and my personal favorite, complete reversal of paralysis in lab rats:
http://www.livescience.com/health/090129-stem-cell-spine.html

[Tadao]

It's so gay that I'm offended by testing on rats and don't care about embryos.

[kahljorn]

Bush pandered so hard to his Christian constituency it's pathetic.

Why do people keep targetting christianity? A VOCAL MINORITY WHO HASNT BEEN INVOLVED IN CIVIL POLICY FOR LIKE 10 YEARS OR WHATEVER HE SAID.

[Tadao]

What is really confusing is this. They are using adult human stem cells to repair organ damage on rats successfully right? Or is it adult rat stem cells used on rats.

Either way, why are scientist so eager to use embryonic stem cells? On one hand I understand scientist like to fuck with anything they can get their hands on, but something isn't adding up. I highly doubt that I am getting the "bad news" about adult stem cell research.

[pac-man]

Why do people keep targetting christianity? A VOCAL MINORITY WHO HASNT BEEN INVOLVED IN CIVIL POLICY FOR LIKE 10 YEARS OR WHATEVER HE SAID.

So you're saying that Bush's beliefs and those of his most ardent and vocal supporters didn't affect his policy? Oookay...

[ZeldaQueen]

It's so gay that I'm offended by testing on rats and don't care about embryos.
Eh, don't worry about it. When I read The Diary of Anne Frank, I was all upset when she wrote about how this favorite pen of hers was destroyed. Meanwhile, my mom pointed out that she died of disease and starvation so a pen was the least of her problems. :(

[Tadao]

YES ZQ, THAT IT A GREAT COMPARISON BECAUSE IT HITS SO CLOSE TO WHAT WAS SAID!

[ZeldaQueen]

Excuse me Mr. BunnyBoy. >:

[pac-man]

You gotta admit ZQ, you make some weird analogies/references.

[Tadao]

This is the farthest stretch yet. I was pondering it for a while trying to make any connection. It's like a game that gets increasingly harder every post.

[VaporTrailx1]

Here are the only two arguments needed to continue stem cell research:

1. Abortion is still legal and taking place either way. I view it as fucked up, but you wanna know what, why throw those useful stem cells in the incinerator?

2. Sanctity of human life? The guys who outlawed stem cell research had no problem dropping bombs on people.


We can grow ears on the backs of mice. think of the possibilities here.

[Tadao]

You need to specify which stem cell research. Embryonic or adult? Then again I don't think you know anything about it.

[Tadao]

I can't even play if you're gonna use talking points. You are saying that is the end all on an argument for research? I guess it was funny. :/

[ZeldaQueen]

You gotta admit ZQ, you make some weird analogies/references.
Sorry, my mind does make leaps. Then it forgets that no one else can see where it's going. :(

And howzabout this argument? Something isn't considered alive unless it's heart is pumping blood and it's breathing. Embryos, until the sixth week, have no heartbeat. (I'm not really sure how young embryos are when used in stem cell research :\)

[VaporTrailx1]

The point is with embryonic stem cells, Why is throwing away something more morally justifiable than using it since it's there?

ok. The fetus has already met the business end of the vacuum cleaner. Why throw all those useful cells away? It's like a pizza guy getting an order canceled. Should he throw the pizza in the garbage or eat it?

[Tadao]

ZQ, I don't think I will ever be able to claim when something is alive or not.

VT, I think the reason why people have a problem with it is because, (and I'm not clear on this), I believe they fertilize the eggs and start life and then take the stem cells from that life which in turns kills any hope for that life. I don't believe they take the cells from abortions.

[VaporTrailx1]

ahhh. that makes sense. All I knew about it was from the episode of south park where Cartman tried to sell a few hundred aborted fetuses to stem cell research.

[Tadao]

:lol I love that episode.

[ZeldaQueen]

ZQ, I don't think I will ever be able to claim when something is alive or not.

VT, I think the reason why people have a problem with it is because, (and I'm not clear on this), I believe they fertilize the eggs and start life and then take the stem cells from that life which in turns kills any hope for that life. I don't believe they take the cells from abortions.
Oh, I get it.

And as for my theory, just think of it. A person is considered dead if they don't have a pulse and aren't breathing. I'm just saying that that's my thoughts on the matter.

[Colonel Flagg]

Adult stem cells are what they came from. Stem cells from hair follicles can be teased to grow more hair follicles, thus curing male-pattern baldness. (I kid, of course.) Embryonic stem cells are differentiable. Under different conditions, they can be made to grow into lung tissue, or liver tissue, or nerve tissue, or brain tissue, or .... This is why they are so valuable and desirable for research. The "existing stem cell lines" were either not of sufficient differentiable quality to generate this level of diversity, or they were contaminated.

Again, what is missing is the starting material to make the leap forward. Looking at historical advances in medical science, it is conceivable that we will develop the ability to generate fully differentiable stem cells without resorting to the harvesting of human embryos (that admittedly would be discarded by fertility clinics, as they are today). It will just take 8 years longer than it could have.

[Tadao]

I hear you ZQ, it's just that I eat plants, kill bacteria and squish spiders. All of these are alive but what do I consider alive? Only the spider?

Flagg, that's kinda what I was thinking, I'm just not sure of at what point they harvest the embryonic stem cells? No one comes right out and says. When they say that they are disgarding the embyos, they are talking about fertalized eggs that are just beggining the very first stages of life right? I my self have been part of a few too many abortions. I'm not getting all embryo rights here. It just seems that there are way too many uncomfortable taboo things involved and therefore we aren't bieng told the naked science of what is involved.

[pac-man]

http://cdn.holytaco.com/www/sites/default/files/images/obamacomic.jpg

[Colonel Flagg]

T - I'm not a good-enough debater to be able to convince anyone toward one side or another of this issue. What I can say (not being a molecular biologist or a biochemist) is that the general tenor of the past 8 years has cast a long shadow on science in general. Humanity has a natural distrust of what it does not fully understand, and this is a prime example.

Where the cells come from is not an ethical dilemma - the embryos would be discarded or destroyed anyway. Ethics rears its head when the word "research" is used. Now scientists are performing "research" on human embryos. They want to begin cloning humans. Next they will be experimenting on fetuses. They are playing God. They are making the ultimate "DBGB" which will ultimately take over the world (thanks, Pac). They are evil, evil people and they should be destroyed.

It's absurd. We demonize those men and women whose life's work is to find a cure for Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, Spinal cord injuries, and other terminal cases. Why? Because they dare to use something we would otherwise have thrown away.

[pac-man]

If the other shoe does drop, I think it will come in the form of a statement like, "Uh, we can't do shit with stem cells in humans; thanks for the grant, though." from researchers.

[Colonel Flagg]

At least the opportunity to try has been given, regardless the eventual outcome.

[Tadao]

Don't get wrong, I'm all for it. Even if it was for a Dead Baby Gun.

[BurntToShreds]

So if Obama says that science, and not ideology, will determine his administration's decisions, then why not use pluripotent stem cells? They can be made from skin cells, and the process to create them was discovered back in 2007. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.

[Dr. Boogie]

From what I've read, reasearchers are having some difficulty getting those cells to adapt, such as the cells becoming cancerous.

[kahljorn]

So you're saying that Bush's beliefs and those of his most ardent and vocal supporters didn't affect his policy? Oookay...

thats exactly what i was saying in the thread why is christianity the target ;o

[VaporTrailx1]

What would be the problem with creating Wrath of Kahnesque superhumans? Sure it seems wrong at first. But when you realize that AI computer systems will be able to outsmart us within 50 years it's a whole new ballgame. Normal humans will not be able to compete against the Robotic onslaught. If we're really worried about them replacing us normal humans, we could give them short lifespans like Blade Runner Replicants.

The choice is Kahn or SkyNET?

[pac-man]

thats exactly what i was saying in the thread why is christianity the target ;o

Well, you're wrong. I know you don't like to hear that and I'm not going to argue with you.

[Tadao]

I looked at this link http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Stem_Cells.html

I gotta say. I don't understand it yet.

[pac-man]

I'm going to need sobriety and and a dictionary for that one. Like you said before, there needs to be a real comprehensive Discovery Channel special about this that covers pros and cons and uses some laymen's terms.

[Colonel Flagg]

Nice find T. A fine summary of the state of the art - maybe not true cutting edge, but current as of the past year, surely.

What strikes me is the tone of the article. There's no "right" or "wrong" - there's only fact and falsehood. Very little in the way of emotion to cloud the issue at hand, allowing the reader to make his or her own decision as to ethics or morality of the research.

[Arob]

Adult stem cells are what they came from. Stem cells from hair follicles can be teased to grow more hair follicles, thus curing male-pattern baldness. (I kid, of course.) Embryonic stem cells are differentiable. Under different conditions, they can be made to grow into lung tissue, or liver tissue, or nerve tissue, or brain tissue, or .... This is why they are so valuable and desirable for research. The "existing stem cell lines" were either not of sufficient differentiable quality to generate this level of diversity, or they were contaminated.

Again, what is missing is the starting material to make the leap forward. Looking at historical advances in medical science, it is conceivable that we will develop the ability to generate fully differentiable stem cells without resorting to the harvesting of human embryos (that admittedly would be discarded by fertility clinics, as they are today). It will just take 8 years longer than it could have.

Quoting Colonel Flagg,

What about the stem cells taken from a baby's umbilical cord (http://www.cordbloodbankofcanada.com) blood? Can these adult stem cells turn into babies?

[Colonel Flagg]

I looked at this link http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Stem_Cells.html

I gotta say. I don't understand it yet.

Arob, I suggest you look at this link, courtesy of Tadao. It might help your understanding of the problem.

To your point, I believe one of the problems with cord blood is that only about 1 in 10000 red blood cells in cord blood are, in fact, stem cells. The trick is to separate this 0.01% from the whole. Which is currently not possible.

Again, I'm not a "MEDICAL" doctor, so I reserve the right to be completely full of shit. :p

[Kitsa]

98% of the MDs I know are completely full of shit, so I'm not sure what that says about your input.

[executioneer]

guys i think you're missing out on the best part of stem cell research

100% moral and ethical cannibalism

[Colonel Flagg]

Gives a whole new meaning to "What are you eating right now?" hey hey?