Strength training VS Cardio for fat loss

[Chojin]

I get what Dimnos is saying

What if he just wants to lose weight and doesn't really want to end up building absurd amounts of muscle? What's the best shit to do, then?

My ideal figure is somewhere between a holocaust survivor and Iggy Pop, so I'm looking for a weightloss plan along those lines, too.

You only gain muscle from exercising if you feed yourself protein shortly before and/or after the workouts. If you fast for 30 minutes prior and 2 hours after lifting weights, your muscles will cannibalize themselves - moreso if you're already low on fat. A less stupid way of not becoming xbawks hueg is not to increase the weight you're lifting each session. Lift until you reach your ideal amount of muscle and then just keep lifting the same weight for the same reps - you won't get any bigger doing that.

Weightlifting is the most effective form of exercise for weight loss, but you should combine it with cardio if you intend to actually be 'fit' in any capacity. Diet is again the biggest part. Come to think of it, if you just want to lose fat and not gain any muscle whatsoever (in fact, you'll lose some), just diet hard on a protein-sparing modified fast like Lyle's program and don't do a fucking thing in terms of exercise.

If you're also aiming to be a delicious trap, supplement that awful idea with Soy milk, because it's full of phyto-estrogen.

[elx]

weightlifting is not the most effective form of weight loss. it is, however, the most effective way to lose weight while simultaneously bulking up and strengthening muscle.

cardio is the most effective form of weight loss. it's also the easiest and fastest and in my opinion the most fun, because you don't have to do the same shit over and over again like you do with pushups/pullups/weight lifting/etc. it'll also help you tone the muscles, instead of building on them.

[Chojin]

weightlifting is not the most effective form of weight loss. it is, however, the most effective way to lose weight while simultaneously bulking up and strengthening muscle.

cardio is the most effective form of weight loss. it's also the easiest and fastest and in my opinion the most fun, because you don't have to do the same shit over and over again like you do with pushups/pullups/weight lifting/etc. it'll also help you tone the muscles, instead of building on them.

1. "tone" is a nonsense term. Your muscles are your muscles, and there are two dimensions to form - fat and muscle. Stretching and running aren't going to make your muscles magically change shape, that's stupid. You're stupid. While we're on the subject, when you lose fat, you lose it from all over your body in proportions defined by your genetics and gender - running isn't going to make your legs slimmer. If you've observed this effect in someone, you're misinterpreting it - they've gained muscles in their legs and reduced their overall bodyfat. Doing squats would have gotten them the same results in FAR LESS TIME.

2. Cardio is not BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION the fastest way to exercise. What is this I don't even. Perhaps you're thinking of high-intensity interval training?

3. Cardio is not the most effective form of weight loss, either, no. You will burn more calories with cardio while you're exercising than you would with weights, but the body's repairing process will burn more calories overall with weightlifting. Further, the longer you do cardio, the more your body will retain fat to sustain itself during extended cardio sessions.

4. "You don't have to do the same shit over and over [with cardio]" - wtf? That is like, the DEFINITION of cardio. Repetitive motions for extended periods of time. With weightlifting you're doing something different every 10-20 minutes, and should have different routines on different days of the week.

Toning, shaping, spot reduction, etc. are all broscience and don't exist. You're perpetuating myths in your ignorance.

That post was so patently incorrect that I'm gonna try to troll /fit/ with it.
http://zip.4chan.org/fit/res/1811468.html

[Chojin]

I AM SORRY IF I WAS TOO HARSH but your post made me rage ;<

it was like the advice some female personal trainer in her 50s would give you, moments before she goes off to do some curls with 5 lb. weights.

[Sam]

:lol TROLLED

[elx]

OK, apparently, we have very ideas of what "cardio" is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_exercise
i was not referring to like 80s jazzercise. cardio is the best, it's the fast-paced stuff that gets you moving. boxing, dancing, skating, swimming, running, whatever. you can do hardcore or light, you will get results either way.

it's not rocket science, anyone can understand why cardio is a more reasonable choice for someone just looking to slim down. strengthening will totally change your physique, it'll take the fat and make it work in a different way for you -- whereas cardio will just take your shape and make it smaller, it'll eliminate the fat and then after a while, begin to tighten your body. (tighten=tone to me)

and yeah cardio is way more fun imo, i'm pretty sure anyone could find some form of cardio that they would love doing, and if not, they can switch it up any which way they like. no matter what you choose though the idea is the same, the goal is to burn more than you eat.

also i'm not clicking on that 4chan link and i think it was really silly that you just apologized to me for nothing but thanks i guess:(

[Chojin]

OK, apparently, we have very ideas of what "cardio" is.

i don't think you read my post

i was not referring to like 80s jazzercise. cardio is the best, it's the fast-paced stuff that gets you moving. boxing, dancing, skating, swimming, running, whatever. you can do hardcore or light, you will get results either way.

Just much more slowly than you would if you were lifting instead of doing cardio or doing it in tandem with cardio.

it's not rocket science, anyone can understand why cardio is a more reasonable choice for someone just looking to slim down. strengthening will totally change your physique, it'll take the fat and make it work in a different way for you

Um, fat loss is fat loss. Lifting weights will make your muscles bigger faster than cardio, but that is BECAUSE IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE aAISRISUARERJFEAIOSFAGH

-- whereas cardio will just take your shape and make it smaller, it'll eliminate the fat and then after a while, begin to tighten your body. (tighten=tone to me)

"tighten" just means your skin is closer to your muscle. If you're reducing fat while minorly increasing muscle (cardio), this will happen more slowly than if you're reducing fat quickly while majorly increasing muscle (weightlighting). Or at your discretion, you can just lift weights with higher reps and not increase the poundage - doing it this way, you'll increase muscle at about the same rate as cardio (if not slower, since you are limited by rational boundaries) and it'll still be a better use of your time.

and yeah cardio is way more fun imo

yeah i can't think of any better way to spend 60 minutes than staring at a TV or wall while I repeat the same motion

fyi i play videogames while i use my recumbent bike on my cardio days so it's not really that bad, but point is -

cardio is inferior to lifting weights unless you're an olympic swimmer (and therefore need your bodyweight to be retarded low). chicks all seem to have this retarded phobia of becoming the next chyna if they touch a barbell, when their bodies are physically not able to do that without going nuts with injections like they're playing Bioshock.

[elx]

first off, you're a jerk, i don't want to be kidnapped, if i wanted my words on 4chan i'd post them there myself:(

and i'll try to meet you in the middle here,
cardio is better for slimming down, it is faster and more efficient.
strength training is better for overall fitness in the long run.

this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.
i was trying to avoid the semantics and make this as simple as possible to understand, but if you still don't, i'd be more than happy to get technical.

ALSO, i'm not afraid of strength training, i've done it plenty, i have no issues with it, i actually had to take a workshop on it when getting my assistant coach badge. i wasn't going to say anything at all but i found it incredibly annoying that you were actually discouraging people from doing what they were doing and wanted to do just because you read about fitness on 4chan and it worked for you, which is great and awesome and dandy but not everyone wants to do 200 squats and pullups a day:( nothing wrong with cardio

[Fathom Zero]

fyi i play videogames while i use my recumbent bike on my cardio days so it's not really that bad, but point is...

One of my best friends in the world would do stuff like that. He's got a treadmill and plays his vidya games and watches T.V. He lost sixty pounds, doing that everyday for I don't know how long.

[Chojin]

first off, you're a jerk, i don't want to be kidnapped, if i wanted my words on 4chan i'd post them there myself:(

and i'll try to meet you in the middle here,
cardio is better for slimming down, it is faster and more efficient.
strength training is better for overall fitness in the long run.

this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.

No it fucking isn't.

You have it backwards. People who lift weights become cosmetically better, but often are lacking in terms of actual fitness. THAT is what cardio is for.

Feel free to educate yourself!
http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html

And because I know you won't read it, here's the part of it that directly relates to this discussion:

Are you trying to lose weight? Lift weights. Lifting burns tons of calories, and lifting weights while dieting will cause you to retain more muscle and lose more fat than just diet and/or cardio. Because the name of the game when it comes to not looking awful is FAT LOSS, not weight loss. Do you want to be that guy who loses lots of weight and still looks flabby and useless? Of course not.

Are you just trying to “tone up”? Lift weights. “Toning” is kind of a nonsense term, because you don’t actually “tone” anything. You can only lose fat and gain muscle, and lifting weights helps you do both, by burning calories and promoting muscle growth. Like I said before, you get huge by eating huge, not lifting weights; lifting just determines how much of your weight is muscle vs. fat.

Are you a woman? Lift weights, because I already explained why lifting won’t turn you into a man, and all the other benefits still apply to you. And if you are a 1 in 1,000,000 woman who can pack on muscle mass like a man, just stop working out as hard and it will go away. This is a gradual process we are talking about here; you don’t go from Twiggy to Linebacker Bulldyke overnight.

Lifting weights also makes you stronger, less injury prone and promotes stronger bones and looking better naked. It speeds up your metabolism a bit and makes you healthier generally.

But what about cardio? For one thing, it burns lots of calories. But cardio is also good for everyone because it improves your overall endurance and ability to exert yourself over an extended period. It promotes cardiovascular health and contributes to increased bone density. Basically, your ability to perform pretty much any kind of physical activity is helped by being in good cardiovascular health, and it makes it less likely that you will eventually die from your heart exploding.

My suggestion is to alternate weights and cardio, for instance doing 3 days of weights, 2 days of cardio, and taking the other 2 days off. Doing both on the same day tends to cause one or the other to suffer from reduced effort, and generally burns people out.

[elx]

no you

[Chojin]

cardio is better for slimming down, it is faster and more efficient.
strength training is better for overall fitness in the long run.

this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.

"Why weight loss requires strength training, even in women and seniors"

http://www.naturalnews.com/011285_body_fat_strength_training_muscle_mass.html

"Strength Training for Weight Loss: Weight Lifting Is Better Than Cardio Exercise or Dieting"

http://weight-loss-methods.suite101.com/article.cfm/strength_training_for_weight_loss

"The typical consensus is that cardiovascular activity and a stringent diet are the only ways to achieve weight loss. On the contrary, utilizing a weightlifting routine will boost your metabolism and help you shed unwanted weight."

http://www.ehow.com/way_5410921_strength-training-weight-loss.html

i'd be more than happy to get technical.

go on

[elx]

i am supposed to be studying, i am not going to have this conversation with you if you're just going to link articles to make your point, i can do that too.

http://www.lifemojo.com/lifestyle/cardio-vs-strength-training-4713708

http://hubpages.com/hub/CardiovsStrengthTrainingWhichburnsmorefat

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/20/AR2007042001772.html

[Chojin]

http://www.lifemojo.com/lifestyle/cardio-vs-strength-training-4713708

http://hubpages.com/hub/CardiovsStrengthTrainingWhichburnsmorefat

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/20/AR2007042001772.html

Link 1: Doesn't discuss the topic at all

Link 2: Presupposes that strength training is lauded for fat loss due to muscle burning more calories than fat while existing. The increase in calorie burn by just having muscle is minimal, but that's not why strength training is better for fat loss - fat loss is promoted by the body repairing microtears in muscle tissue, which OVERALL burns more calories than cardio does. The article then goes on to ignore all of the actual benefits of strength training.

Link 3: Also is only counting the calories burned while actually exercising. Again, most of the calories burned by lifting are burned while you rest. I lol'd though at them saying YEAH WELL YOU CAN ONLY LIFT A FEW TIMES A WEEK -- THAT IS BECAUSE ON THE OFF DAYS YOUR BODY IS BURNING CALORIES TO REPAIR ITSELF, FUCKWITS, A PROCESS WHICH WOULD BE SLOWED BY PUTTING STRAIN ON THE MUSCLES BY DOING CARDIO

this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.

according to every one of the articles you just linked, it is a debate. and in the process of them mangling facts, they all acknowledge that you will need to lift weights as well as do cardio if you actually want to lose weight.

[Chojin]

btw elx i am very appreciative that there is at least one other person on this board who actually gives a shit about fitness and will argue with me

[elx]

strength training is not superior to cardio. in cardio, you will lose weight faster because you are burning more calories in less amount of time than you would in strength training alone. you are also less restricted, you are able to exercise for longer unintermittedly. as it turns out though, the end results are equally sucky on their own, the most effective form of weight loss is neither, it would be a combination of the two, so we were both wrong.

here are two quick studies I found that support my conclusion-

this one for healthy older adults:
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/2001/10000/Concurrent_cardiovascular_and_resistance_training. 21.aspx

this one for slightly obese younger adults:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/3/557

if you had to choose between the two, I would still say that you should opt for cardio. you just have more flexibility in your work out than you would in strength conditioning alone, because of this you can do it much more casually and get the exact same results you would have if you were doing squats, situps, pullups, weight lifting, etc.

[Chojin]

strength training is not superior to cardio. in cardio, you will lose weight faster because you are burning more calories in less amount of time than you would in strength training alone.

i don't think you're listening to what i'm saying, so i'll say it another way.

1 hour of exercise: cardio > lifting
1 week of exercise: lifting (3 days, 4 days rest) > cardio (7 days)
1 week of max fat loss: lifting (3 days), cardio (4 days)

you are also less restricted, you are able to exercise for longer unintermittedly.

Again, this is only an issue if you insist on looking at a several-hour window for calorie loss. Your rest days from lifting are also taking a toll on your body while it recovers from the lifts.

as it turns out though, the end results are equally sucky on their own, the most effective form of weight loss is neither, it would be a combination of the two, so we were both wrong.

It depends. If you're eating at an extreme deficit, you won't be able to do cardio for a long enough period for it to be useful without burning out and causing other problems. The activities involved in strength training are brief enough that you can usually do a set quickly and then sit down before you pass out. Every PSMF diet I've seen recommends no more than 30 minutes of cardio for this reason, and people stand to lose the greatest amount of weight in the smallest amount of time under those programs.

if you had to choose between the two, I would still say that you should opt for cardio. you just have more flexibility in your work out than you would in strength conditioning alone, because of this you can do it much more casually and get the exact same results you would have if you were doing squats, situps, pullups, weight lifting, etc.

If you were doing lifts alone, you'd have entire days off from your training and would spend less time doing it per-workout as well. However, cardio is more accessible for most people - but for those of use who SPLURGED on the $120 for a squat rack, it's far less of an inconvenience than a lengthy cardio exercise.

[Chojin]

Also I don't really have a dog in this fight since I do both (3 days strength, 4 days cardio), but I feel that strength training is often overlooked because people think it's too hard or inefficient due to misinformation. Add to this that it's far easier to do cardio CORRECTLY since it's nigh impossible to fuck up, unlike weights, which have smith and nautilus machines that produce shitty results.

[elx]

i don't give a crud about fitness, i never work out because i don't have to. :3
but yes, cardio is generally better for most people aswell as easier, i'm glad we agree.

now what is this thread for?

[Chojin]

Cardio is only better if you're a pussy with a lot of free time on your hands

a.k.a. everyone on the internet

[elx]

why even bother working out so much?

[Chojin]

i'd show you some before and after pics, but the "before" ones induce vomiting and i'm still not quite where i'd like to be with my weight

[elx]

if you keep at it you'll look gross :(

[Chojin]

http://www.i-mockery.com/chojin/RKO1-1.jpg

[elx]

yeah that's disgusting, someone should tell that dude he's missing his pants:(

[Chojin]

someone should tell that dude he's missing his pants

http://www.i-mockery.com/chojin/ortonohno.jpg

[elx]

ugghh. i bet if i stuck him under a magnifying glass he'd melt.

[Chojin]

desiring metrosexuals is only appropriate if you, too, are male

[elx]

i just like normal guys, they're soft and warm and great! the ones like those dudes are gross and not gentle and probably really smelly.

i also don't think it's a coincidence that every guy i've met that looks like that seems to borderline retarded. normal is better.

[Chojin]

we'll see how you feel when i'm intercontinental champion.

[elx]

i don't know what that means, but i'm pretty sure you'd still be all of the things aforementioned, so. wouldn't change anything. sorry :(

[Guitar Woman]

we'll see how you feel when i'm intercontinental champion.

Sorry, we don't job to chumps at the Palace of Wisdom.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Avr3IZ6nBJ0/SlcCjD-jKrI/AAAAAAAAARc/olE8DmDtEfs/s400/john+morrison.jpg

[Sam]

CHOJIN HEARS VOICES IN HIS HEAD
THEY TELL HIM TO WORK OUT AND HE UNDERSTANDS

[Chojin]

i don't know what that means, but i'm pretty sure you'd still be all of the things aforementioned, so. wouldn't change anything. sorry :(

well i never

[Shrubfest]

If I want to get fit and muscly, which way round should I do it? Weights first, then cardio for heart rate and stuff? Or t'other way round?

Or a nice combo of both?

[Guitar Woman]

you could try reading the thread

[Chojin]

Shrub - eat at a caloric deficit and do strength training with a TINY bit of cardio (30 mins/day max on days you don't lift). Then when you're at a very low bodyfat %, increase your calorie intake to about 1,000 kcal over maintainence. The whole time, keep your protein intake high.

Dieting (any of Lyle McDonald's books are good):
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4628392/Fitness.rar

Strength training (just watch the videos):
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4776524/Starting_Strength_Basic_Barbell_Training__Book_and _DVDrip

If you're looking to get jakked Shrub, buy some whey protein and casein protein. Take a scoop of whey immediately before and after your exercises, and take a scoop of casein before you go to sleep.

[kahljorn]

So like sometimes when I go running/do cardio for long periods of time the next day I feel like my muscles hurt MUCH THE SAME WAY IT WOULD AFTER DOING STRENGTH TRAINING, except its all over instead of some specific locale.

so I'm theoretically burning just as many calories from "Repairing" my muscles with cardio as I am with strength training. Also once you get to the point that you're no longer increasing the weight of the weights, wouldn't you no longer rip your muscles as much meaning they wouldn't be healing as much on the offtimes/burning calories?

:O

[Sam]

HEY SHRUBFEST I HAVE SOME SUGGESTED CARDIO THAT YOU AND I COULD WORK ON. ;)

[Chojin]

So like sometimes when I go running/do cardio for long periods of time the next day I feel like my muscles hurt MUCH THE SAME WAY IT WOULD AFTER DOING STRENGTH TRAINING, except its all over instead of some specific locale.

except most of that pain is lactic acid buildup, and you'd get the same "overall hurt" effect if you used compound lifts like squats/deadlifts/other olympic lifts instead of using nautilus machines like a faggot

so I'm theoretically burning just as many calories from "Repairing" my muscles with cardio as I am with strength training.

lol no

okay, maybe during week 1

Also once you get to the point that you're no longer increasing the weight of the weights, wouldn't you no longer rip your muscles as much meaning they wouldn't be healing as much on the offtimes/burning calories?

The idea is that you'd still want to try to lift beyond capacity, but not eat enough to give your muscles the power ot grow back bigger, just enough to repair themselves.

[Esuohlim]

Man, staying fat is just so much easier than reading through this whole thread.

[Chojin]

Man, staying fat is just so much easier than reading through this whole thread.

that's why it's so popular in america

[kahljorn]

Also cardio is kinda like strength training in that there's a bunch of different types you can do. I can do running one week, get my body all fucked up and let it repair itself, then do intensive yoga the next week and have the same thing happen.

Hell by this ripping/repairing logic I could seriously do some hardcore stretching to burn some calories.
I doubt that repairing muscles really burns many calories compared to cardio ;/

fuck instead of waiting around for your body to repair itself, with cardio you could just run every day if you're in good enough shape. I'm sure that would burn more than letting your muscles repair.

[Chojin]

well shit, if we're just going to throw science out the window, weight training will also cause ponies to appear at your door. You must then squat them.

[kahljorn]

Shit science was already thrown out the window cause apparently logic makes you spew red herrings from your bosom like some kind of fat woman circus host.

[kahljorn]

Resting Energy Expenditure, or REE, was also used as an indicator of exercise effectiveness. REE is important as it accounts for the body’s use of calories during periods of non-activity and helps to prevent weight gain (Hunter, et al., 2006). Multiple studies suggest that aerobic training is significantly more successful at improving REE. As sixty minutes of cardio had already been shown to increase REE for up to twenty hours following a workout and LBM, often associated with strength training, was a known contributor to caloric consumption, both aerobic and resistance training were measured to see determine their effect on REE after forty minutes of activity. Forty-five women were randomly divided into a control (non-exercise) group and two exercise groups and put a specific diet for twenty-five weeks while the exercise groups participated in their respective activity. The levels of REE were measured at nineteen, forty-three, and sixty-seven hours post-exercise following a twelve hour fast. The aerobic training group showed a significant increase. A fifty kilocalorie difference was found between nineteen and forty-three hours and a thirty-four kilocalorie difference between forty-three and sixty-seven hours for the aerobic training (Hunter, et al., 2006). Resistance training, on the other hand, showed no significant change in REE. Such has been demonstrated on multiple occasions including another study involving overweight women, in which resistance training actually reduced REE (Wadden, et al., 1997). Yet, it is important to note that researchers suggest that this may have been due to the level of the workout experienced by the resistance group as strenuous strength training has been shown to increase REE more than moderately intense cardio workouts fourteen hours post-activity (Hunter, et al., 2006

Ihope your PRECIOUS science can handle THAT.
Even the last sentence says you have to put in a shitload of work to your weight lifting for it to be worthwhile. I'm sure if people sprinted instead of jogged, though, they'd get a similar affect.

[Chojin]

Source?
Also:

Yet, it is important to note that researchers suggest that this may have been due to the level of the workout experienced by the resistance group as strenuous strength training has been shown to increase REE more than moderately intense cardio workouts fourteen hours post-activity

How many people do you see SPRINTING in the gym, as opposed to fucking around for 40 minutes while watching the news? Conversely, how many people do you see not lifting to failure in the gym?

When it comes to lifting, it's pretty much 'do or not do', it would actually take some effort to have a 'moderately intense' lifting program. Or I guess you could just leave after one set.

[kahljorn]

First off, I don't go to the gym.

Secondly, it has intext citations but I got it from here http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/Web2007/ExerciseComp.htm

i guess you could have a moderately intense lifting program if you did it really slowly with not very heavy weights for a short period of time.

[Chojin]

I know you're trolling, but there is no way that any cardio exercise outside of HIIT or Tabata training is going to come close to the level of muscular repair that lifting weights will set in motion. Swimming is the best and most effective form of cardio, yet you will notice that olympic swimmers are not JAKKED - they are tiny, with low amounts of bodyfat.

I mean, if that were the case, why would anyone lift weights at all? Least of all bodybuilders?

[kahljorn]

I didn't say it would reach that level, I just said it may reach a level high enough that combined with the normal benefits of cardio exercise it may exceed the weight loss benefits of strength training.

Plus that website said cardio is better for the amount of calories you lose when you're not exercising (over the short term).

[Chojin]

Plus that website said cardio is better for the amount of calories you lose when you're not exercising (over the short term).

Haven't read the article yet since I have a test I'm supposedly studying for, but it sounds like broscience to me. As I demonstrated through logic above, weight training will cause a far greater requirement for muscular repair. Maybe they're factoring in an increase in metabolism? Which is largely tied to genetics and diet in the first place.

Either way, that's why I had recommended that people do both cardio and strength training, but to focus on the strength training.

[kahljorn]

it might be "broscience" but it seems like they cited at least two actual studies that did actual research.

Just because it causes a greater requirement for muscular repair doesn't matter if : the initial amount of calories burned isn't shit, the amount of calories you gain through muscular repair isn't shit, and you are comparing it to something which has a higher initial amount of calories burned, you can run and burn calories every day instead of resting and the calories you burn while you run is way more than would be lost through muscular repair, and you have to repair muscles with cardio anyway.

This is like saying, "IF YOU DO STRENGTH TRAINING YOULL LOSE 2 BUT ON THE OFF DAYS YOU WILL LOSE 3 BUT IF YOU DO CARDIO YOULL LOSE 5 STUFFS BUT ONLY LOSE ONE FOR EACH OFF DAY OH EXCEPT THERE WONT BE AS MANY OFFDAYS CAUSE YOU CAN EXERCISE EVERYDAY SO WHILE YOURE WAITING AROUND LOSING LIKE THREE WATEVESS YOU COULD BE RUNNING AND LOSING FIVE."

Your logic demonstrates nothing.

[Chojin]

So, again, do both, faggot.

If you do ONE or THE OTHER, strength training will win in terms of efficiency WITHIN A SANE TIMEFRAME. If you CAN run for 4 hours 7 days a week, which one is best would be completely immaterial to you. You would also be tremendously fit but still look like a skinnyfat asshole, but that's neither here nor there.

I mean, of fucking course if you spend 9,012 hours running in a week, you will hit your muscles harder than weight training and will burn more calories. That isn't the point. People who aren't legendary athletes can be expected to spend about 5 hours a week exercising. 3 hours is a reasonable weekly max for strength training, and 7 hours is a reasonable weekly max for cardio -- but again, time and conditioning are factors. SO, you should spend the maximum cumulative amount of time lifting (approx. 3 hours), and then do cardio when you have free time for the rest of the week (approx. 2 hours).

When i'm dieting, I tend to spend 5 hours/week exercising (3 lifting, 2 cardio).
When i'm eating at maintenance, I tend to spend 7 hours/week exercising (3 lifting, 4 cardio).

What do you have the time and energy for? Make time for your strength training first, and then fill the rest with your gay hippie cardio.

[Chojin]

HERE I HAVE DESIGNED A HELPFUL GRAPH FOR YOU

TOTALLY MAGIC-FREE AND LABOR INTENSIVE

http://www.i-mockery.com/chojin/a_graph_for_kahl.png

[kahljorn]

can i also make a magic chart depicting the exact opposite of what you are saying and say that it works? :O

[kahljorn]

one thing that you didnt consider is that many of the people who will be exercising are fat people and running when you're fat takes extra calories.

[Geggy]

Fuck the gym. Its infested with germs and bacteria and you'll end up with either the flu or mrsa, whichever comes first. Its kettlebells and training videos on youtube this winter for me, bitches. Plus 30 second sprints 6 times, 3-5 days a week.

[kahljorn]

ALSO HERE IS MY CHART DOCUMENTING OUR ARGUMENT:

http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt152/maryannkopp/bannas.jpg

[kahljorn]

oh yea and here's an ACTUAl TRUTHFUL representation of that which you chart was trying to depict:
http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt152/maryannkopp/counterchart-1.jpg

NOW THIS CHART IS SUPERIOR TO YOURS FOR MULTIPLE REASONS. FOR ONE IT IS TRUE AND YOURS IS A LIE. FOR TWO IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT FAT PEOPLE CANT RUN VERY WELL AND THAT WHEN FAT PEOPLE RUN THEY ARE OFTEN CARRYING AROUND HUNDREDS OF EXTRA POUNDS OF WEIGHT WHICH SORTA MAKES IT STRENGTH TRAINING ANYWAY BUT ANYWAY HAVING TO CARRY ALL THAT SHIT MEANS THEY GET EXTRA BENEFITS FROM CARDIO. PLUS FAT PEOPLE GET SO TIRED FROM RUNNING THAT IT TAKES MONTHS FOR THEIR HEART RATE TO REALLY GO DOWN SO THEY RECEIVE LASTING BENEFITS EVERYTIME THEY RUN
WE ALSO KNOW THAT FAT PEOPLE ARE NATURALLY STRONG AND HAVE SUPER REGENERATIVE ABILITIES AND AS SUCH IT HAS BEEN NOTED IN MY CHART THAT FAT PEOPLE WONT GET MUCH BENEFIT FROM LIFTING WEIGHTS

[MattJack]

WE ALSO KNOW THAT FAT PEOPLE ARE NATURALLY STRONG AND HAVE SUPER REGENERATIVE ABILITIES AND AS SUCH IT HAS BEEN NOTED IN MY CHART THAT FAT PEOPLE WONT GET MUCH BENEFIT FROM LIFTING WEIGHTS

:lol

[Chojin]

wat

[King Hadas]

Dear brodunce

Hey chojin, has all that strength training given you any stretch marks? A few years ago I started a daily exercise regime that overtime got cut down to 50 push-ups a day (I didn't start off at fifty but I got there eventually). I did this faithfully for a quarter of a year and then got lazy and stopped. Now I have these isolated stretch marks on my shoulders and I'm wondering if this is normal.

[Chojin]

i have some stretch marks under my pits but I'm pretty sure that had more to do with being fat

however yeah stretch marks can happen if you get buff, the best way to handle it is to apply cocoa butter to the skin every once in a while before the marks form.

[kahljorn]

i have some stink marks under my pits but I'm pretty sure that had more to do with being fat

wat

[Chojin]

woah, how did you edit my quoted post like that

it's like magic

[kahljorn]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y155/alohamrhand/keanu.jpg
woah, how did you fuck my sweet ass like that

it's like a hot fudge surprise

[executioneer]

Dear brodunce

Hey chojin, has all that strength training given you any stretch marks? A few years ago I started a daily exercise regime that overtime got cut down to 50 push-ups a day (I didn't start off at fifty but I got there eventually). I did this faithfully for a quarter of a year and then got lazy and stopped. Now I have these isolated stretch marks on my shoulders and I'm wondering if this is normal.
i had that happen when i used to lift in hs :( i also have some from getting fat

I WEAR A SHIRT IN THE POOL

[kahljorn]

i also wear shirts in the pool :O :O

[Geggy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7xrr8XQ_-Y

:(

[executioneer]

hahahahah oh product inventors, why do you make such ridiculous products

[executioneer]

I ALREADY DO THAT EXERCISE PLENTY THANKS :lol

[kahljorn]

"when you have completed the exercise the shake it off weight machine will shoot a creamy goo onto your breasts"

[Darryl]

strength training is not superior to cardio. in cardio, you will lose weight faster because you are burning more calories in less amount of time than you would in strength training alone.

I am only on post #16 of this thread so far, but a thought occurred to me about metabolism. Elx, didn't I see a picture of you, and you're pretty trim? I think maybe you can do your cardio and stay trim because your metabolism runs at a high rate.

Meaning, to get the results you want, you can do less work than someone like me, with a much slower metabolism. I need to speed it up. So, I need to work on my strength training and my five meals per day and work in cardio, too, because my endurance is low. I have to work harder than you to see results.

So, from your perspective, doing your cardio works just fine for you.

There's a girl at my gym like that. She eats like crazy, whatever and whenever she wants. And must be 100lbs.

Discuss.

[Chojin]

Nah, girls just like cardio because it isn't hard, they're terrified of becoming Chyna, and their shitty health mags tell them it's awesome. Also, they can watch Oprah while they do it.

This also explains kahljorn, btw

[Shrubfest]

Chojin, I found a great way to tone your stomach!

Develope a ridiculous sneezing allergy, and have no antihistamenes. Feel the burn!

[Fathom Zero]

Develope a ridiculous sneezing allergy, and have no antihistamenes. Feel the burn!

That's not too far off for me, actually. :(

[Shrubfest]

Its 2 days after, and it still hurts. Six pack in no time.

[Darryl]

This thread brought to you by the Sneezemaster :(

[Chojin]

what's your sneezing 1RM, brah?

[Pentegarn]

I miss my six pack abs.

Now I have 'sick fat flabs'

Good news is the new place has a nice workout facility that is free for me to use. So I can get the body fat down a bit

[sspadowsky]

I am now awaiting the arrival of the p90x workout that I ordered. It looks like a perfect mix of Chojin and Kahljorn. Then I will succeed at it, post the results, show that they were both right, and there will be peace and love in the big gay world of buffness.

THERE WILL BE NO "BEFORE" PICTURE, BITCHES; ONLY "AFTER."

[Chojin]

I haven't heard any convincing arguments for or against p90x, I just know that it's something of a fad.

I don't see what's so complicated about just counting calories and lifting heavy shit with a flat bench, squat rack, barbell, and weights, but GODSPEED

[Pentegarn]

I haven't heard any convincing arguments for or against p90x, I just know that it's something of a fad.

I don't see what's so complicated about just counting calories and lifting heavy shit with a flat bench, squat rack, barbell, and weights, but GODSPEED

Everyone I have ever heard says cardio is necessary. So I can see where the skepticism about what you described would be coming from.

[sspadowsky]

I haven't heard any convincing arguments for or against p90x, I just know that it's something of a fad.

I don't see what's so complicated about just counting calories and lifting heavy shit with a flat bench, squat rack, barbell, and weights, but GODSPEED

I'm just giving you shit, kitten. I've done what you're talking about many times over the last fifteen years, and it does work. I've also done something similar to the p90x workout, and it works too- right now, I'm just more interested in endurance-related training without sacrificing strength.

All of this stuff will benefit you, and I'd certainly rather see people arguing about which workout method is better than which flavor of Doritos or Zingers is better.

[Chojin]

Everyone I have ever heard says cardio is necessary. So I can see where the skepticism about what you described would be coming from.

You don't even have to lift weights. It isn't a NEW DIET SECRET, it's just common sense that if you eat less than you use, you'll lose weight. WHERE you'll lose it is another story (and why I'd recommend lifting weights in addition to dieting), but you will lose fat regardless of whatever else the fuck you're doing if you eat ~500 calories under your body's basal metabolic rate (adjusted for activity level).

[kahljorn]

Whoa chojin don't you think that's a little harsh? I don't even have to exercise to stay thin.

Also don't you think you should have had a longer transitional period between FAT GUY and FAT GUY HATER cause mostly everything you say sounds so self-loathing even when you're targeting it at others :O ;)

[Chojin]

Whoa chojin don't you think that's a little harsh? I don't even have to exercise to stay thin.

That's.. what I just said.

Also don't you think you should have had a longer transitional period between FAT GUY and FAT GUY HATER cause mostly everything you say sounds so self-loathing even when you're targeting it at others :O ;)

That's.. part of where the rage comes from.

[MattJack]

I just read the last part of this thread, so pardon me if I repeat shi* somebody else has already said.

I personally think high intensity training, some cardio, and a proper diet is the best way to lose weight while making gains. So keep that in mind when you read the bottom half of this Dude-Bruh post.

If it matters, I own p90x and used it some years ago. If you follow the instructions and eat correctly, then you'll def be really strong/ripped(this obviously depends on your current physique, the amount you lift, your reps, your diet, and how much you're willing to push yourself).

I don't use it anymore because I've always done high intensity workouts that last about an hour. Plus sometimes I just like going to the gym to use machines that I feel work certain muscles better (resistance machines seem to work my chest a bit better than free weights). P90x is really helpful for people who are too lazy to educate themselves on how the body works, and as well as what it means to have a proper diet. P90x is also helpful for people who don't have the time/money for a gym membership or who are self conscious about their body.

Really at the end of the day this is what I think you should do in order to lose weight and gain muscle:

Change your workout routine every 4-6 weeks with a week or so of rest in between. You can do some light cardio or light weight, but give your body a chance to reset. After it has start working out on the regular basis you normally do, but do completely different exercises that work the same muscles. P90x uses this technique very, very well.

Don't kill yourself in the gym. I personally don't see why anyone should be working out for more than 1 1/2 hours unless they are going for some type of competition or if they have to do full body routines due to their life's schedule. With that said, don't fu*k around in the gym either. If you want to admire Cardio Bunnies and goof off with your buddies then just go to the bar like the rest of America. Take care of business in the gym, don't cheat yourself.

Lift enough weight and keep near perfect form. I noticed that I had plateaued a few months ago and couldn't seem to make anymore gains. I worked on my form and decided to lift 75-80% of my max rep. I generally try to make it to 8 reps before I get completely exhausted. If I can only make it to 2-3, that's fine too. I stop when my form is compromised. When you compromise your form you're only cheating yourself, imo, and also you could really hurt yourself.

Eat, eat, and eat. If you're not eating then you're not growing. You need to eat proper meals and snacks virtually around the clock. I try to eat around 180-220g of protein a day(I know I should be eating more, but I personally don't want to be a "big" guy.). I always try to keep some type of snack in my vehicle so that way I never go a couple of hours without eating something. At the end of the day, I feel that your body looking nice is 85% your diet and 15% working out. I feel that changing your diet is more of a lifestyle change and not a "diet." People ask me if I'm on a diet all the time and I just tell them, "Nah, I just don't eat that shi*." Cokes, fast foods, fried foods, candy, etc. have all been cut out of my diet. I eat some every now and then, but I believe that's how it should be and not the norm.

Don't neglect your core/find your weakest spot. Core exercises may be dull to some (including myself), but they really give you the most bang for your buck. You may not see shredded abs from power cleans or dead lifts, but your strength will shoot through the roof. How many curls can you do? Now how many over hand pull-ups can you do while raising your legs? Which do you think makes you stronger of the two? Find out what you suck at and then fix it because it will probably help the muscles around it grow. For instance I have a buddy who can't seem to get his biceps any bigger, but the dummy won't work on his deltoids. I don't know about yall, but I'm not really use to seeing guys with huge biceps and no shoulders.

Don't worry about what the guy next to you in the gym is doing or what your friends are doing. Fuc* them. Know what you want to look like and learn how to get there. At the end of the day it's about your goals, so don't try to get a big dic* and try to cut corners in order to lift a 100lb dumbell just because Bruto next to you is doing it.

That's all I got for this thread. Once again I didn't read anything but the last page, so sorry if I'm just repeating shi*. Also, I'm not a doctor or scientist or some s*it, so take my advice with that in mind. Also, I feel like such a Dude-Bruh right now that I think I'm going to explode. Plz forgive me for this fgt post.

[Chojin]

I agree with all of that, MJ. Core exercises - especially Squats, Deadlifts, Bench Press, and Chin-ups - are so important that you can basically just do those exercises and nothing else and get some great results. When I'm putting together a workout plan I like to divide my work into push/pull days and center the workouts around those core exercises (I do barbell rows instead of chin-ups though because I can't go over 2 reps on them).

[kahljorn]

That's.. what I just said.


That's.. not what I was responding to.

[sspadowsky]

I went with p90x because I got tired of weight routines I had been doing, plus I'm lazy when it comes to planning workouts and prefer to have it spelled out. That applies to the diet as well. I suck at meal planning. When I don't stick to eating right, I don't feel as good, and I skip workouts. So here I have the whole thing laid out before me, and I think it will be easier to stick with it.

[Chojin]

That's.. not what I was responding to.

My mistake, I saw that you had said 'Chojin' and thought you were talking to me.

[kahljorn]

Nah, girls just like cardio because it isn't hard, they're terrified of becoming Chyna, and their shitty health mags tell them it's awesome. Also, they can watch Oprah while they do it.

This also explains kahljorn, btw

Whoa chojin don't you think that's a little harsh? I don't even have to exercise to stay thin. :O
that should make it easier for your precious mind ;)

[elx]

dear experts,

since legs are pretty important for walking and stuff and in my case make up over half of my structure, i think i should start with them on my quest to improve my physique. plus they need the most work :\ how can i fix them?
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/kelcnr/LIMBS.jpg

would yoga stuff work? cause i dont think i can lift weights with 'em :(

[Tadao]

I can't really tell from that angle, but it looks like you have no calf muscle.

I would suggest bike riding to start.

[kahljorn]

lol you can just like run/hike ;/

[Tadao]

Bike riding is better cause it's low impact, but your young so w/e.

[executioneer]

walk everywhere on tiptoes

[elx]

running and hiking are two of my favorite things, i'm pretty sure running is what has caused the suckyness in the first place :(

i haven't biked in like 5 years though, would that make a difference?

[kahljorn]

What is it you want to change about your legs? they look fine to me ;/

[Tadao]

What is this suckyness you speak of? 5 years shouldn't matter, it's like riding a bike. If you want to strenghten your upper leg/butt, go to a pool and swim. Swimming is really good for you. It helps strengthen your whole body and doesn't cause any damage.

[kahljorn]

mebbe she's a cripple :O

yoga might help but yoga's really more like stretching unless you learn a complete yoga routine, and if you learn a complete yoga routine it will usually exercise your entire body since that is part of the point of doing yoga (BESIDES ENLIGHTENMENT).

[Chojin]

You already know what i'm gonna say, but - squat. it'll also give your ass some lift/perk.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximus/BBSquat.html

if you use a standard bar, that's 22.5 lbs, olympic bars are 45 lbs. 90-year old men can usually pull off a set of squats with just the bar, so i see no reason why you couldn't do it too.

squat form is kinda complex (given that it's a compound exercise) and unforgiving, but i can go fish out some resources if you're interested.

i do squats and calf raises, personally.

[Darryl]

You already know what i'm gonna say, but - squat. it'll also give your ass some lift/perk.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximus/BBSquat.html

if you use a standard bar, that's 22.5 lbs, olympic bars are 45 lbs. 90-year old men can usually pull off a set of squats with just the bar, so i see no reason why you couldn't do it too.

squat form is kinda complex (given that it's a compound exercise) and unforgiving, but i can go fish out some resources if you're interested.

i do squats and calf raises, personally.

A lot of girls at my gym do lunges.
The thing with exercise is that you can change the exercise later. You can try lunges and after a while decide to take on a new challenge/exercise like squats.

http://www.fertilehealthy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/lunge.jpg

[Chojin]

girls like lunges because they have idiotic fetishes for colorful dumbbell weights and a crippling fear of barbells. squatting is a superior exercise in a lot of ways.

the squat itself has several variations - front squat, full squat, hack squat. that's what you do when you need to mix up your squat, but it activates so much of your core that it's very much an essential exercise.

*now that i got my bro post out of the way, i actually went and looked up lunges and the muscles they activate.

dumbbell lunge - http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/DBLunge.html
barbell lunge - http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBLunge.html

seems like you could feasibly replace a squat with it if you absolutely had to, but the nature of the movement means that it'd take twice as long. it's also a more treacherous movement if performed with a barbell (like god intended), and a little unwieldy to perform with dumbbells (i squat ~222, imagine holding a 100+ lb dumbbell in each hand while prancing about). it also looks like it'd put more stress on the knee, which would be the only reason to avoid a squat in the first place (though if you squat correctly you won't put a great deal of stress on your knees).

[kahljorn]

Hiking on terrain that isn't simply flat or similar everywhere (like really established trails with no hills) is vastly superior to either of those techniques. You will work out all of the same muscles and more and in a different variety than you would otherwise.
Plus you can wear a backpack too.

[Tadao]

I was just gonna mention that if you want to hike and strengthen your core, wear a pack with some weight in it. Preferably sand you can dump if you can't make the hike back. you puss.

:edit I have the advantage of a treadmill. I can adjust uphill, get off when I'm tired I just ease it down to a slow walk and get off. I can also take off my backpack of ankle weight and not have to worry about lugging them any further.

[Darryl]

Choj, I agree with you, but if trying lunges gets someone to actually START weight training, then it's a good thing.

At my gym, there was a girl doing bench presses with the olympic bar and a couple of small plates. She looked self-conscious, but it made me really happy to see her doing it.

I also kept thinking, Crap, I have to keep at it or she's eventually going to bench more than me (and I don't bench that much yet).

[Chojin]

Hiking on terrain that isn't simply flat or similar everywhere (like really established trails with no hills) is vastly superior to either of those techniques. You will work out all of the same muscles and more and in a different variety than you would otherwise.
Plus you can wear a backpack too.

so is fighting off vikings and tilling the land and shit, but no one does those things anymore either

the essence of exercise is substituting shit we had to do thousands of years ago with highly efficient modernized methods, since evolution is terribad slow with catching up with our physiology.

[kahljorn]

:lol evolution is terribad slow at catching up with our physiology?
Friend, I think as a doctor of broscience you should keep out of fields which are not your specialty. Such as evolution and biology.

I have the advantage of a treadmill. I can adjust uphill, get off when I'm tired I just ease it down to a slow walk and get off.

Well, while this is nice I don't really think it serves all of the same benefits as hiking. While its true you're going uphill, one thing you migt not consider about hiking is that even when you're going uphill, the terrain is uneven. Whereas on a treadmill on a grade, its always flat and even. Furthermore when you're hiking you have to step over ditches, walk down hills, climb over trees, walk across rocks to get across the creeks. The uneven terrain makes it harder on your body. Seriously, I can walk like hundreds of miles on sidewalks and established trails (and it will mostly work out my legs) but if i try to walk through unestablished paths, all the unevenness on the ground really makes my whole body exhausted a lot faster.

so is fighting off vikings and tilling the land and shit, but no one does those things anymore either

Red Herring (IM SAYIng youR COMMEnt IS IRRELEvANT). Besides, lots of people till the land still -- you ignorant fuck! Which reminds me, I love to do deep cleaning around the house for my exercise.

ALSO HERES A HIGHLY EFFICIENT MODernIZED TECHNIQUEFOR EXERCISING WHILE YOU WORK
http://www.devicedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/ab-stim-belts.jpg

your previous comment is about that relevant.

oh yea and tons of people hike, you ignorant fuck. Part of the point about things like hiking is that its organic. Just like with food organic fresh food might not be as EFFICIENT and HIGHLY MODERNIZED as some of the can shit/mass produced crap you buy, but its still better for you.
Also I would argue that "tilling the land" or basically doing labor is more highly efficient than all that other crap because you get exercise AND you do something useful like make food :)

SPEAKING OF HIGHLY EFFICIENT WHY BOTHER COUNTING CALORIES AND EXErCISING to LOSE WEIGHT WHEN YOU CAN JUST GET LAP BAND/FASTRIC BYPASS? YOULL SAVE SOSOSO MUCH TIME THAT ITS RIDICULOUS. HELLA MORE EFFICIENT. GOOD DAY.

[kahljorn]

haha dude, i think you're on to something:
since evolution is terribad slow with catching up with our physiology.

JUST LIKE ADAM SMITH THEORORIZED THAT MARKEY FORCES ARE THE "INVISIBLE HAND" THAT REGULATES THE ECONOMY;

EVOLUTION IS THE INVISIBLE CLUB FOOT THAT NEEDS to CATCH UP WITH OUR PHYSIOLOGY :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Chojin]

i meant that our physiology has yet to catch up with the modern lifestyle, and evolution is far too slow (and ineffective, since weak people don't rly die off anymore) to change that anytime soon.

you knew that of course, but for some reason you have decided that this is the thread where you will do battle with me at any opportunity.

[elx]

well this is confusing! i wanted to build muscle in my legs so they'd be curvier and more attractive (and look less like logs!), but i already am fit and i do most of the things you guys suggested regularly already and it just doesn't build up on me. so i suppose my only options now are steroids or calf implants. o well thanks anyways d00ds:(

[executioneer]

EAT SOME STEAKS

[kahljorn]

You know, I really have no idea what youre going for elx but IN MY OPINION : I don't really think its muscles that necessarily make girls legs look curvy and attractive, but slight chubbiness. So willies right, eat steak and ice cream. but probably your metabolism is too high. You could try not exercising as much too.
As you get older and your hormone balance changes they might get a little shaplier :O

IM ALSO TALKING OUT OF MY ASS THOUGH :/

[Chojin]

well this is confusing! i wanted to build muscle in my legs so they'd be curvier and more attractive (and look less like logs!), but i already am fit and i do most of the things you guys suggested regularly already and it just doesn't build up on me. so i suppose my only options now are steroids or calf implants. o well thanks anyways d00ds:(

Well, for resistance training to have any impact you have to eat over maintenance. So I'd say increase the intensity of your workouts and yeah, eat more ice cream.

[10,000 Volt Ghost]

well this is confusing! i wanted to build muscle in my legs so they'd be curvier and more attractive (and look less like logs!), but i already am fit and i do most of the things you guys suggested regularly already and it just doesn't build up on me. so i suppose my only options now are steroids or calf implants. o well thanks anyways d00ds:(

Just jazzercise or do stripperobics along with steak and ice cream.

Basically what that will do is take all the excess calories and burn them. The calories you keep will fly to the curvier places of the body: IE: The Booty, The Chest, The Calves. This is why dancers are usually curvacious. This is why I am voluptious.

[kahljorn]

:lol

I do stripperobics somtimes :(

[sspadowsky]

Additional photos of elx's gams will be necessary for an accurate assessment.

[Tadao]

Walk around in high heels

[Darryl]

well this is confusing! i wanted to build muscle in my legs so they'd be curvier and more attractive (and look less like logs!), but i already am fit and i do most of the things you guys suggested regularly already and it just doesn't build up on me. so i suppose my only options now are steroids or calf implants. o well thanks anyways d00ds:(

Stop making excuses and do the work.

7dRlyPvphqk

[Fathom Zero]

Pick up heavy things. Then when it gets too easy, pick up heavier things.

[Fathom Zero]

my advice is still applicable