America After Bin Laden

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Some have already been quick to declare the so-called war on terror over: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-05-02/osama-bin-ladens-death-time-to-end-war-on-terror/.

Beinart's argument, in short, is that America requires a framework, or a kind of mission statement, in which it can conduct - and justify - its foreign policy. Before the GWOT there was The Cold War, and before that there were a couple of big wars you might remember. The next 'model', according to Beinart anyway, is Rising China and the threat it poses to American hegemony.

Is he correct? Is the global war on terror essentially over? Is American Declinism, vis-a-vis China's emergence, the next 'big thing'?

[Pentegarn]

If you listen to the people in charge of information and keeping it secure, it is most assuredly China, and this war will not be fought on a battlefield.

As for the "war on terror" I feel it is and always was as futile as the "war on drugs". Terrorism will never go away completely.

[Zhukov]

They would be silly to swap the war on terror for a war on Chinese interests. Terror is there as long as you fear it; it comes and goes when your government wants it to as well.

Chinese interests are real, harder to make it seem like you are fighting, and go hand in hand with your own US interests.

[Tadao]

Our own US interests? You're telling me that the rest of the world is not as worried about China as the US is?

[Zhukov]

No, I'm saying the US didn't/don't do much trading with the capitalist wing of the USSR or Al Qaeda.

If you are talking about why I mentioned the US rather than anyone else, well, we were talking about the US. Also, Australia recently announced closer military ties with China - no specifics, just vague statements that mean nothing.

[Tadao]

Well as far as trading with Al Qaeda goes, I do believe we armed them up until they started attacking us.

And as far as US interests go, that's not really existent. There are things like richest people in the world interests fighting each other though.

[Zhukov]

Us interests = US companies interests.


I wouldn't call arming the Mujahideen as building a profitable business rapport, either

[mburbank]

Now that we've slayed our big boogeyman, America is going to ease into a golden age, where War on anything is not our essential paradigm. We'll greatly reduce our military footprint, reinvesting that money in clean renewable energy technology and research, enhancing the social safety net to produce a demonstrable trickle up effect and reach out to the poor not just of America but of the world. A new cabinet position, Secretary of Peace will be established, and on the rare occasions that terrorism rears it's ugly head we'll deal with it through international police work, not disproportionate, non functional military force.

I'm kidding of course. We'll stay stuck in the middle east and blow all our money their until the Chinese own all our debt and tell us if we don't get out and start realizing we're Britain after WWII (If we're that lucky) tey stop selling us shit, stop making cheap shit for us to buy and stop loaning us money. By that time America will be 1% English speaking astronomically wealthy and 99% poverty or bellow speaking a pidgeon blend of Spanish and Chinese.

[Tadao]

and armed.

It will be one giant Alabama.

[10,000 Volt Ghost]

Gummo Nation

[Dr. Boogie]

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/shared/characters/non-human/goobacks.jpg
"Chi-ken san-wich?"

[kahljorn]

I'm sort of ignorant in the matter but I don't really see how china can compare to america or most of the world. They are still basically an industrial society whereas we are like a post-post-industrial society.

[Pentegarn]

Well they are going through their industrial revolution at warp speed and they can make anything cheaper and faster than anyone else. Their computer espionage branch is top notch and the people i know involved with stopping them are not sure they will be able to.

The next war will be the Cyber War, where China will hack into our systems and we will be like the boy with his finger in the dam trying to stop them

[Tadao]

They have very few laws that restrict them from forced labor and proper handling of hazardous waste. So they can make things for .0001 of a cent and sell it for 100 dollars.

That's a lot of profit and profit is king. But you know all that so I think I don't understand what you are asking.

[WhiteRat]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l34yldGJju1qz59fwo1_500.jpg

[kahljorn]

Well they are going through their industrial revolution at warp speed and they can make anything cheaper and faster than anyone else.
They have very few laws that restrict them from forced labor and proper handling of hazardous waste. So they can make things for .0001 of a cent and sell it for 100 dollars.

:O we have standards, they don't. Plus their products suck. If they ever implement standards then their economy will decrease, and we would be way ahead of them insofar as having standards and having a successful economy. Most of china is also still pretty ghetto. Plus we're the ones that buy most of their products, so if we get fucked so will they.

but again I'm totally ignorant in the matter...

[Tadao]

No, you got it right. I saw a comedian talking about the same thing and it came down to "America is addicted to buying crap they don't need."

Just look at how many garages are filled with crap while cars are parked on the driveway or street.

The only thing is, what happens when America refuses to pay back the money we borrowed? War?

[kahljorn]

I dunno. I don't think that there would be any international precedence for that, except what happened with germany after wwI. I think China would just be fucked.

[Grislygus]

IN A WORLD WHERE APES EVOLVED FROM MEN?!!!!!

[The Leader]

The US and China will never go to war because our economies are now dependent on one another. If one of us goes after the other, then both are going to suffer horrific economic downturns along the lines of complete collapse. And why would we fight China? Where is the motivation for either of us to engage in conflict?

The only reason people think of China as some enemy is because of their rapid growth coupled with the fact that they claim to be a communist state. Their ability to project hard power is laughable, and soft power is their only real tool. That soft power is reliant upon continued economic relations with the United States.

If there's an aggressor who causes war between the two, it will be the US simply because China has more to lose and would have no prospects of winning in a war with the United States. If anything, there's going to be pushes for even closer alignment with China simply because it benefits our economy.

Well they are going through their industrial revolution at warp speed and they can make anything cheaper and faster than anyone else. Their computer espionage branch is top notch and the people i know involved with stopping them are not sure they will be able to.

The next war will be the Cyber War, where China will hack into our systems and we will be like the boy with his finger in the dam trying to stop them
Ok, I don't see a problem with this because "Cyber War" occurs mostly on the internet. Hackers deface government websites and other things. Actual government systems are not connected to the internet.

If you want to disrupt the computer system of a military facility, or steal data from said facility, you have to actually enter the base and stick a pin drive or an external hard drive into a base computer and upload/download the stuff.

The only way to attack stuff that is actually important would be focusing on economics. Stocks and things like that. But because the Chinese economy is interlinked with the US economy, China isn't going to be trying to disrupt the US economy.

[Tadao]

I don't see how China would be hurt, we owe them more than we give them. The would be richer if they didn't deal with us at this point. All they appear to be doing is letting us rack up debt so that they basically own us. That doesn't make much sense either so it has to be something else.

I doubt they are doing it because they like us.

[kahljorn]

i just think of it as being like the Dawes Plan :O

[Zhukov]

Good post Leader.

[Pentegarn]

The US and China will never go to war because our economies are now dependent on one another. If one of us goes after the other, then both are going to suffer horrific economic downturns along the lines of complete collapse. And why would we fight China? Where is the motivation for either of us to engage in conflict?

The only reason people think of China as some enemy is because of their rapid growth coupled with the fact that they claim to be a communist state. Their ability to project hard power is laughable, and soft power is their only real tool. That soft power is reliant upon continued economic relations with the United States.

If there's an aggressor who causes war between the two, it will be the US simply because China has more to lose and would have no prospects of winning in a war with the United States. If anything, there's going to be pushes for even closer alignment with China simply because it benefits our economy.


Ok, I don't see a problem with this because "Cyber War" occurs mostly on the internet. Hackers deface government websites and other things. Actual government systems are not connected to the internet.

If you want to disrupt the computer system of a military facility, or steal data from said facility, you have to actually enter the base and stick a pin drive or an external hard drive into a base computer and upload/download the stuff.

The only way to attack stuff that is actually important would be focusing on economics. Stocks and things like that. But because the Chinese economy is interlinked with the US economy, China isn't going to be trying to disrupt the US economy.

There's a place where I live, it is known as Batelle. It is a contracted facility that works for the government developing new technologies, be it agricultural, military, industrial, etc. This facility is not unique, there are dozens like it scattered all over the USA, these facilities all have one thing in common, they are connected to the internet because they are not official government installations. They have been attacked before by China, I know this because a relative to a person very close to me is a big part of trying to keep China out. So I get to hear a lot of stories about things that have been thwarted. They don't need the government computers to steal information when they can steal it from a contracted third party source before it gets to any secure off the net facility. China only has to succeed once, while these third party contractors have to succeed every day.

People may think China won't/can't get us via the internet, but I am here to tell you that this in fact not the case.

[Zhukov]

But they can't shut down your missile defence networks or shit like that.

[Pentegarn]

Actually, if they know what microchips we use during development, they can

[The Leader]

Through the internet?

I don't see how China would be hurt, we owe them more than we give them.
Because we buy so much stuff from them. If our economy collapses, we aren't buying any of that stuff. They then can't sell it.

[Tadao]

You do know that other countries buy cheap crap from China, not just America right? I don't think our collapse will harm the rich Chinese in the least. You're talking like the people who work in the factories will be hurt or something.

[Pentegarn]

Through the internet?

No, probably through microwaves or radio waves, or whatever transmits through the air that that particular microchip would be vulnerable to. All they would need is the blueprints which a hacker could get from a 3rd party contractor.

[Zhukov]

You do know that other countries buy cheap crap from China, not just America right? I don't think our collapse will harm the rich Chinese in the least. You're talking like the people who work in the factories will be hurt or something.

They do, but it's mostly US based companies that buy all the cheap shit, and then sell them on to other countries.

I haven't really thought too much about what would happen to China in the event of a US economic crash, but it would definitely affect them quite dramatically.

[The Leader]

The United States is also China's largest trading partner and the fifth largest source of direct foreign investment. China is the United State's third largest customer in regards to exports. They're taking as well as giving and to say that China is somehow isolated from the United States economically is incredibly stupid.

No, probably through microwaves or radio waves, or whatever transmits through the air that that particular microchip would be vulnerable to. All they would need is the blueprints which a hacker could get from a 3rd party contractor.
Oh, so they'll just sit on a hilltop with a transmitter and mess with the guidance systems after the munition has been launched. Ok, I feel really unsafe now.

[Tadao]

No, to think the US is so needed is incredibly stupid.

[Pentegarn]

Oh, so they'll just sit on a hilltop with a transmitter and mess with the guidance systems after the munition has been launched. Ok, I feel really unsafe now.

They haven't gotten through yet, we just have to hope our guys' best efforts outshine theirs

[The Leader]

No, to think the US is so needed is incredibly stupid.
The US is currently needed because of the economic relations our two states have developed. I'm sorry, but China's continued growth requires such sustained relations. If their largest trading partner suddenly took an economic dive, especially considering that the Chinese have invested in the US dollar itself, China would suffer some serious setbacks and many members of the party would be very upset.

[Zhukov]

It's all pretty outdated to keep on with the whole US versus THEM mentality in this global capitalist society that we live in. China's economy and America's economy is for the most part the dealings of private companies working on an international scale.

[Tadao]

I didn't know China invested in the US dollar, do you actually have evidence of that or is it something you heard somewhere?

If they did invest in the dollar, then they are idiots since the US borrows a gazzilion from them every year further lowering the value of the dollar.

[The Leader]

They are the single largest foreign holder of US treasuries according to this congressional report. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34314.pdf

[Tadao]

Fuck you jerk

[The Leader]

I love you.

[Pentegarn]

I didn't know China invested in the US dollar, do you actually have evidence of that or is it something you heard somewhere?

If they did invest in the dollar, then they are idiots since the US borrows a gazzilion from them every year further lowering the value of the dollar.

they have bought a shitload of our bonds according to the guy who tells me why my 401k keeps shrinking

[executioneer]

guys the u.s. borrowing from china is the same thing as china investing in u.s. bonds

or am i misinterpreting something here

[Tadao]

Well if you are going by what I'm saying, you would be silly. I'm just spouting off bullshit and seeing if any of it sticks.

[Evil Robot II]

Drunk drivers kill more people per week than terrorism has killed ever. Same thing goes for pancreatic cancer but you never hear anything about it.

[Tadao]

till now

[kahljorn]

more black men die in houston texas than soldiers in iraq :O

guess all those black dudes should just go to iraq

[Dimnos]

Only if there is a welfare check in it. :\

[Chojin]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l34yldGJju1qz59fwo1_500.jpg

i'm ok with this.jpg

[Colonel Flagg]

the United States of Affluence.

[WhiteRat]

I'm not sure what the name of this country will be but it will be run by some sort of corporate oligarchy.

Also corporations are people:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html

[Dimnos]

AllI know is that our most wanted list is looking a little weak. We need to dig up some more heavy hitters. :\

[kahljorn]

our most wanted list should be the whole middle east all of those countries suck ass.

I heard Pakistan is pissed off at us now cause we killed Osama, when they were supposed to be looking for him :lol

[Tadao]

They almost had him too.

[Colonel Flagg]

They almost had him too.

:lol2