Acid Blinding Sentence in Iran

[Zhukov]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/8513667/Acid-blinding-sentence-of-Iranian-man-postponed.html

Acid blinding sentence of Iranian man postponed
The blinding of an Iranian student by having acid dripped into his eyes has been reportedly postponed, just hours before the punishment was due to be carried out.


So the first thing any progressively minded person thinks of is how backwards and barbaric this is. It conjures up images of women being stoned for wanting divorce, or children getting their hands cut off for stealing lollies. "Those crazy Arabs" some amongst us may think. Maybe even use it as a point to how horrible the Middle East is as a region and a people.

The procedure was planned for Tehran at midday on Saturday in the presence of Ameneh Bahrami, the young woman he attacked and blinded, under a sentence called qesas (retribution in kind) imposed by a court in 2009.

She had demanded that the blinding be carried out after her university classmate Majid Movahedi threw a bucket of acid over her when she spurned his repeated offers of marriage. The punishment had been due to be carried out at the judiciary hospital in Tehran, under the supervision of a doctor and with representatives of the coroners' office and the prosecution present.

Do people change their views after reading that? I think some, or at least, one, probably will. Eyes for some eyes, quite literally har har.

I personally still think it's barbaric, backwards, and will do nothing to prevent future acid attacks occurring, and wont give the victim her original life back. It's a tough one, especially looking at the photo of the poor woman he disfigured.

Also interesting that they will have a doctor there to oversee proceedings. I wonder what kind of Hippocratic oath they take in Iran?





Tadao, if you don't want to chat then please don't lock the thread. That's just me asking, not some veiled insult.

[kahljorn]

i dont know what to think :(

does he get jail time too, or just blinding?

god damn she looks fucked up. i think he should have acid dumped on his face, personally. It's not the same to have a doctor oversee it and just be blinded... actually first they should disfigure him, let him see his new face, then blind his ass and leave him in the dessert lol. IM SO MEAN

The human rights group Amnesty International had called for the sentence to be cancelled. "Regardless of how horrific the crime suffered by Ameneh Bahrami, being blinded with acid is a cruel and inhuman[e] punishment amounting to torture," a spokesman said. :lol does iran have laws against cruel and inhumane punishment?

[King Hadas]

When it comes to governments legally recognizing cruel and unusual punishments I'm only against it because people would definitely misuse that right (this is why I'm against executions in our country). When someone really is guilty though then yeah I don't have a problem with it. This guy deserves to be blinded, not blinding him would be barbaric.

Justice is not about deterrence and it's not about fulfilling sadistic fantasies either, it's about fairness. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot.

Blinding this man is right and correct and to do otherwise would be evil.

[kahljorn]

I don't think blinding is enough personally :(

dudes a fucking asshole who couldn't handle rejection ;/ i think the evil intent alone is worth twenty years of ass beatings

[King Hadas]

Don't underestimate how much being blinded would suck. You're helpless and dependent until you're dead and the majority of your life options are destroyed. He'd have to get a seeing eye camel just to get around town.

He should also be disfigured though. That lady's sex life is gone now, his should be too.

[Tadao]

If he is blinded then he won't really be able to throw acid on other women again. So blinding him will actually prevent him from doing this act again. I also have to believe that it would prevent a lot of acid in the face assaults.

On a side note, if in 2 weeks this becomes 5 pages of Z and P acting like fags, then I will probably lock it.

[Tadao]

There, you guys now have a place to have your Communism vrs Capitalism argument.

[MLE]

Also, Tadao's not a mod -he can't lock anything. He must have asked another mod and they were probably "yeah, this is getting retarded and going nowhere, sure."

[The Leader]

I think that a man who is capable of such violent action should be executed for the safety of the public. Also because shooting someone in the head is cheaper than having taxpayers feed, cloth, and house them in prison.

[Dr. Boogie]

If he is blinded then he won't really be able to throw acid on other women again.

"Marco."

"Marco."

"Marco."

"... polo."

*splash*

"Yeaaargh!"

[Zhukov]

I am against it, in general and in this particular case, for a few reasons.

It's not stopping future acid attacks occurring; it's reinforcing a culture of cruel violence and revenge amongst the society at the highest level. It's not telling potential acid attackers that they should treat everyone humanely and be accepting of others views; it's telling them that brutal revenge is law. This guy obviously thought the woman deserved her face disfigured for slighting him - and a bucket of acid in her face was his version of justice.

Being blind is not as efficient at stopping this particular gent from doing the same attack again as a life term in prison would be.

I think it about revenge and fulfilling sadistic wishes; the victim has said close enough to it. It's up to her whether he gets the punishment or not (and Human Rights groups, to an extent) so it's not like it's the government dishing out what it thinks is fair, either.

I don't think justice is about fairness, and I don't think it should be... but if it were about fairness, then yes, the guy would have a bucket of acid splashed in his face.

Locking up murderers, rapists, violent attackers etc, it's the best thing to do I think. When you start (or keep) killing them and being violent back to them in kind, it just keeps violence circulating in society at a higher rate than otherwise.


If Tadao is not a mod then why does he say he will lock the thread? If you are going to lock this thread because you can't handle a little arguing and perhaps some big words and more than two sentence paragraphs, then you might as well lock the News/politics board (or just not read it). What the hell else are we supposed to do in here?

[kahljorn]

there's nothing equal about being turned down for marriage and then throwing a bucket of acid on somebody. As such, you could argue the reason he's being punished this way is because his own idea of justice was inequal. Also i don't think it's very brutal. They are having a doctor oversee the acid dropping -- in just his eyes. That's like saying capital punishment by lethal injection is brutal, in comparison to a dude that rapes then stabs his victims 30 million times.


Furthermore you could take the Kantian approach to justice and say that, since he thinks justice is throwing acid on people's face, we should respect him and throw acid on his face as a part of justice. This respects his own concept of what justice is, and respects him as a human being. See quote below.
It's not telling potential acid attackers that they should treat everyone humanely and be accepting of others viewsWe're telling him that we don't respect his view of throwing acid on people's face as a part of justice. If we threw acid on his face, we would be telling him, "You're unjust. We respect your view that throwing acid on people's face is a part of justice. Thus, we will throw acid on your face."

Locking up murderers, rapists, violent attackers etc, it's the best thing to do I think. When you start (or keep) killing them and being violent back to them in kind, it just keeps violence circulating in society at a higher rate than otherwise.Actually killing the murders rapists and violent attackers keeps violence from circulating in society. When those people are in prison they just kill each other and prison guards and whoever, and if they ever get out they do it again. And they will literally be circulating around in society if they get out. Plus it sends a message to people that if you rape and murder, we're going to treat you with respect and just put you into prison where you can live a full life and have a chance to get out.
besides: locking people up in prison keeps kidnapping and the taking away of rights and freedoms (and a lack of respect for people's decisions) circulating in society.

Being blind is not as efficient at stopping this particular gent from doing the same attack again as a life term in prison would be.True. I think they should lock him up too, and/or execute him.
But i think seeing a blind dude shamefully walk around town, ousted by society as a sadistic, pathetic fuck, might deter people more than just locking him up in prison where nobody will ever see him again.
I think he needs a stockade or whatever those things are called, too, that way he cant hurt people as easily, if he's just going to be blindly walking around town. Oh yea and he needs to be ousted from his family and society in general and have to live in the streets, so that he can't live a comfortable life and so he will be a public message.

anyway was gonna say something about women's rights in these countries but i dunno.

[Pentegarn]

One could say capital punishment is brutal and does not deter crime.

But by that logic all punishment does not deter crime, so we may as well ban all punishment and let crime run rampant because last I checked, lifetime prison sentences do exist and yet so does crime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope)

Honestly, that sort of punishment would not fly stateside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution ), and we also have lifetime prison sentences, and we still have crime. Be against executions (or in Iran's case, oddball eye for an eye punishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi)) all you want, but I am going to need a better reason than 'it does not deter crime' because the same can be said of all punishment

[King Hadas]

It's up to her whether he gets the punishment or not (and Human Rights groups, to an extent) so it's not like it's the government dishing out what it thinks is fair, either.
I like the idea of giving the victim the rights to spare their assailants harsher punishments like execution, it's a nice idea but those Iranians fucked it up. Apparently if this woman doesn't blind this guy the Iranian court ruling says she's technically forgiven him in which case he doesn't get punished at all. Iran is a terrible place.

[Tadao]

If Tadao is not a mod then why does he say he will lock the thread? If you are going to lock this thread because you can't handle a little arguing and perhaps some big words and more than two sentence paragraphs, then you might as well lock the News/politics board (or just not read it). What the hell else are we supposed to do in here?

It's funny because you talk as if I give two shits about what you want.

[All Hail Duke]

kahljorn seems to have the best argument

[executioneer]

man wtf happened to my post :(

edit: whoops-a-daisy, i was thinking of the chatroom :retarded

[Chojin]

Also, Tadao's not a mod -he can't lock anything. He must have asked another mod and they were probably "yeah, this is getting retarded and going nowhere, sure."

he's a mod right now, someone just unflagged his visual status for some reason

anyway we held a vote, that's why he's a mod. if someoen thinks he shouldn't be, we could hold another vote

[kahljorn]

http://www.i-mockery.com/forum/showpost.php?p=682444&postcount=11

PSYCHIC

[Tadao]

I don't lock fun threads either. I lock gay threads. If you want to be gay, you can go over to Zug. There are a lot of gay people talking gay things and generally being gay.

[Tadao]

They also complain a lot about conspiracies and people being unfair to them. You'll fit right in Z-Man.

[Zhukov]

I'm the only one who didn't want Tadao as a mod, I'm just a jealous fag. Sorry guys.

Kahl, I can see what you are saying. Treat others how you want to be treated after all. This guy goes acid, so by his own sense of justice he should get acid - that's what is fair, and that is what his own values live up to.

But I think that we as a society, and Iran as a society, shouldn't be living up to such a person's values. You guys see this from a one person point of view, as in, make him blind and it stops him attacking again, execute the violent criminals and it stops their violent crime, treat criminals how they treat their victims because that's what they deserve.

I'm looking at it from a perspective of how it affects society. It stops circulating violence if you kill the violent - but only the ones you kill. The rest of society just learns to deal with it's problems violently.

The acid attack problem in Iran is not caused by their justice system though; it's caused by generations of looking down on women as being owned by men. As well as that I don't think their eye for an eye system is helping to change the country into a more open and tolerant one.

In all honesty, if the report was that the woman tracked her attacker down and threw a bucket of acid in his face, I would probably be less disdainful than an organised effort by the government to do it. Still, I'd be somewhat disdainful, but dude got what he deserved.

[Dimnos]

First off I would like to say I think blinding is cruel and unusual. Im all for locking real criminals up while reserving the right to kill the truly deserving. (Capital punishment has its own thread and if you want to talk about that go there.)

As far as punishments being a deterrent of crime thought... I think burning his eyes with acid does more to deter future acid attacks than throwing him in prison. How does it not? If so much as one person thinks "Oh damn. I dont my eyes burned out with acid, I better not do that." Then it has accomplished its goal. You could say Throwing him in prison will have the same effect from a more peaceful resolution but how many people will think "Whats the worst that will happen? They throw me in jail?". Also consider how much violence will spread in prison because of that guy. I dont know what the Iranian prison system is like, this conversation is kind of in general terms anyway, but how many fights will he get into with other prisoners? Or with the guards?
Its not exactly fair to compare any other country to Americas prison system, that needs to be drastically changed, but it usually produces a more violent criminal more often than it releases a rehabilitated one.


I don't think justice is about fairness, and I don't think it should be... but if it were about fairness, then yes, the guy would have a bucket of acid splashed in his face.

Just out of curiosity, what is justive about to you Z? Im not trying to undermine your arguments with this or anything, I honestly want to know. If justice isnt about fairness then what is it about?

[Zhukov]

I'd see an acid blinding sentence to be a deterrent for, say, a theft crime, or something akin to that. I don't think a potential murderer or acid blinder would be doing much rational thought before their crime, since even a life term in prison should be enough to turn your average sensible person away from such things. I guess there are going to be exceptions, obviously.

Anyway, this guy still did his crime, even with the punishment being known to him. It's not like Iranians are at all surprised when this stuff happens; it's third page news stuff. If it stops ONE person from doing it, then I guess it is successful in that regard, but I think the alternative might work better - we might not ever find out though.


As for my sense of justice, well, it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I generally would like people to aim for a large serving of what's best for society, a side of decency and progressive morals, a splash of deterrent, and a dash of revenge.

The world's not perfect, but we should at least aim in the general direction, I think.

[kahljorn]

I'd see an acid blinding sentence to be a deterrent for, say, a theft crime, or something akin to that. I don't think a potential murderer or acid blinder would be doing much rational thought before their crime, since even a life term in prison should be enough to turn your average sensible person away from such things. I guess there are going to be exceptions, obviously.Except that, like you mentioned, they have a culture of men owning women and being able to do whatever to them and get away with it. In case it's not clear what that's an exception to, it's an exception to: 1) they don't use rational thought (rationally, in their minds, they can do whatever they want to women.) 2) that it won't be a deterrent; in reality, now people will realize that women are protected by the law.

I'm looking at it from a perspective of how it affects society. It stops circulating violence if you kill the violent - but only the ones you kill. The rest of society just learns to deal with it's problems violently.By the same argument you could say that, when you lock people up in prison, society learns how to deal with its problems by kidnapping, taking away rights and freedoms, and ignoring problems.
Besides, locking somebody up in prison for life is as much/more heinous than just executing them humanely.

And again, it doesn't keep the violence from circulating in society: 1) they can get out of prison.
2) violence still circulates in the prisons; people who are in those prisons for non-murder related convictions will get out, after having been exposed to that violent atmosphere (which, according to your argument will have some kind of an effect on that person); those peopel will then get out and circulate further violence in society (because they were not in their for murder). Plus prison employees will be exposed to it, which again, by your argument, will have some kind of affect on them, and they will be circulating around in society.

also the atmosphere of violence within a prison has to be far worse than in actual society. So decent people could easily be totally corrupted by it.

You know I will just ask you: What is the point of keeping somebody alive who you don't want to/cant have anything to do with society? that's like saying you shouldn't pull the plug on terry shiavo because it creates a society thats solves problems with violence

But I think that we as a society, and Iran as a society, shouldn't be living up to such a person's values.It's not about living up to their values. It's about living up to your own values: treating other people with respect and decency. In this case, it just happens to mean blinding someone with acid.

[kahljorn]

oh yea and why should people pay to keep other worthless fuckers alive who will never contribute anything to society... oh wait never mind you're a communist. ;/
But if you're a communist and doing things for the common good maybe you should just execute the fuck out of them to save money and such.

[Zhukov]

Except that, like you mentioned, they have a culture of men owning women and being able to do whatever to them and get away with it. In case it's not clear what that's an exception to, it's an exception to: 1) they don't use rational thought (rationally, in their minds, they can do whatever they want to women.) 2) that it won't be a deterrent; in reality, now people will realize that women are protected by the law.

Well, we're getting into Iran specific territory now, which is ok I suppose. I think that people would only see it as a government initiative to protect women's rights if it was a particular law against hurting women - which it isn't. It's a law based around revenge, and those laws usually turn against the benefit of the woman in most circumstances anyway (or at least the circumstances that are piped into my western TV box). Still, if it were the case, and it was showing Iranian chauvinists that women are now protected by the law, then a prison sentence could do that too.

By the same argument you could say that, when you lock people up in prison, society learns how to deal with its problems by kidnapping, taking away rights and freedoms, and ignoring problems.
Besides, locking somebody up in prison for life is as much/more heinous than just executing them humanely. That could be true, but prison time and killing are two vastly different things in the eyes of most people. Children know that prison is where you go if you are bad, and killing is wrong. Plus, it's like it's the best we can do - I'm not saying that prison time is the solution to humanity's problems, and I will say that I can't think up anything better.


And again, it doesn't keep the violence from circulating in society: 1) they can get out of prison.
2) violence still circulates in the prisons; people who are in those prisons for non-murder related convictions will get out, after having been exposed to that violent atmosphere (which, according to your argument will have some kind of an effect on that person); those peopel will then get out and circulate further violence in society (because they were not in their for murder). Plus prison employees will be exposed to it, which again, by your argument, will have some kind of affect on them, and they will be circulating around in society.

also the atmosphere of violence within a prison has to be far worse than in actual society. So decent people could easily be totally corrupted by it.
Yeah, I concede that killing someone certainly stops THAT person from ever doing anything bad (or good) ever again, and while time in prison is most definitely a bad influence on otherwise petty criminals who are reasonably well adjusted, I think that's more of an argument against current prison systems, and placing high risk prisoners amongst low risk, rather than an argument about cruel and unusual punishment - or the lack of it.

You know I will just ask you: What is the point of keeping somebody alive who you don't want to/cant have anything to do with society? that's like saying you shouldn't pull the plug on terry shiavo because it creates a society thats solves problems with violence

It's usually a good indication of how well a society is progressing by looking at how they treat the lowest echelons of said society. Whether they be the disabled, unemployed, the elderly or prisoners or others. That's a point to think about by not my argument. I also don't want to go down the "if we kill them then we become them" road too much, although it's certainly another fair call, to an extent, I think.

Both points lead into what I had said before that you do what is best for society - and I am thinking here in the long run, and you can call that wrong if you like - but the elimination of high level criminals creates a culture of violence (which isn't comparable to prison time, or euthanasia) which becomes so much the norm in society that people might not even think about it. Obviously executing prisoners isn't the sole perp here, nor the biggest. I just think it's one of the reasons.

I don't think locking people up is hiding a problem, quite the opposite. In an ideal prison (which doesn't exist, but there are certainly model prisons out there that aim for such ideals) it wouldn't be about locking people up to keep them away - it would be about locking them up to reform them. Call me a dreamer, whatever.



It's not about living up to their values. It's about living up to your own values: treating other people with respect and decency. In this case, it just happens to mean blinding someone with acid.

Well that sounds about right anyway. My arguments lead to a lot of ifs and buts. If the prison was better.... if people were more forgiving... This man could get acid into his eyes and it would have little negative effect on Iranian people, and it would be fair as well - eye for an eye. I am still against it though because I think him NOT getting this punishment, or anyone in the future getting this punishment, would have a slight positive effect.

oh yea and why should people pay to keep other worthless fuckers alive who will never contribute anything to society... oh wait never mind you're a communist. ;/
But if you're a communist and doing things for the common good maybe you should just execute the fuck out of them to save money and such. The obvious and cliche answer is you keep them in prison to build your railways and to dig quarries, or if in the USA to be 50% of your manufacturing base. The correct answer is that in a communist world there wouldn't be any money to waste on them, and they would most likely not have any harsh punishments.

While people being in prison in the US is big business, and them making flak jackets and electric kettles for 25c an hour is the reason they are currently not just being executed, my statements about treating people decently for the betterment of mankind blah blah blah is the reason they SHOULDN'T just execute the motherfuckers.

I understand if you don't want to read or reply to all that. Sorry.

[Tadao]

So you would rather have your eyes burned out with acid than go to prison? I'm not basing this on revenge or whatever, I'm basing it on crime prevention. I'm sure Iran can afford to keep people in prison forever, the only problem with that is that lifers become kings in prison and they are very angry and very powerful.

[Zhukov]

So you would rather have your eyes burned out with acid than go to prison?

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying, well done.

[Tadao]

Good thing we all don't have to do what you want then.

[The Leader]

I for one would rather be able to see the men who rape me in the shower daily, thank you very much.

[Tadao]

Beats not seeing the man who just stole your beggars bowl outside in the hot sun.

[WhiteRat]

I for one would rather be able to see the men who rape me in the shower daily, thank you very much.

Not seeing them is part of the fun!

[Zhukov]

I'm pro gay prison sex.

[Chojin]

k that's about enough of that

no more philo modz

[Tadao]

I regret nothing!

[kahljorn]

MAKE ME THE PHILO MOD

WATCH HOW I TOTALLY DESTROY ZHUKOV LATER WITH MY ARGUMENTS WITH A COMPLETE LACK OF HUMOR

[Pentegarn]

I will miss the Philo mod era, it made me laugh

[Dimnos]

Gay prison sex is a crucial part of the American correctional system.

[Pentegarn]

:lol

[Fathom Zero]

I'd say it's a decent deterrent.

[Pentegarn]

Unless you like gay prison sex

[WhiteRat]

This might be a decent deterrent:

cpGR5lXAGWg

[kahljorn]

I TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT THIS THREAD

[Dimnos]

Much like gay prison sex?