America- Love it or leave it

[sspadowsky]

I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. Many things I've seen and heard trouble me an awful lot, and I don't like the direction in which our country is headed.

Since I'm at work, I don't have time to list all the details, but I'm very strongly considering the possibility of going elsewhere. The next election will be a large determining factor.

In the meantime, do any of you folks elsewhere in the world have any locations to suggest?

Pre-emptive strike: Any of you uber-patriot types can stick it. I've got my reasons for this, so don't even bother with any idiotic rants.

[Zhukov]

I supose I could suggest Australia. It has a good standard of living and a good healthcare system (that is being slowly torn apart...).

The weather is good and the people are friendly.

It has alot of America in it, but no murders everyday.

Good food.

EDIT: But I don't like the way the country is, or where it is heading. Go to Venezuela.

But you should stay in America, help change it....

[mburbank]

Yeah, Sam, we need your vote.

Seriously though, while I still firmly belive the United States will pendulum back toward the center and that this administration will unravel itself much the way Nixon's did, I have to admit I harbor fears I never have before.

I never for instance imagined living in a time where a chief executive I disliked so much might find himself in a position to declare Martial Law, and except for Nixon, I never lived under one who I think would concider doing it.

That being said, Canada is probably too close for comfort.

[sspadowsky]

Oh, believe me, I'll be voting. But I understand that the new voting machines leave no paper trail, and that they will be the means of voting in the next election.

If Dubya wins, I'm packing my bags. I was thinking Europe, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Anonymous]

Just go to Canada.

Hell, the reason I badmouth it is because I don't want other people considering it during the mass migration, and that way, there'll be more land for me.

[Buffalo Tom]

Just go to Canada.

Hell, the reason I badmouth it is because I don't want other people considering it during the mass migration, and that way, there'll be more land for me.

Shhh, we really don't want more of you boorish Yankees up here. ;)

Seriously, Vancouver is a nice, but it's becoming occupied by the irritating noveaux riche (most of them come from California). Toronto's okay, but people are way too stuck-up for my liking (great hockey town, though). Calgary is close to some beautiful mountain vistas, like Banff, and is a stone's throw away from the Canadian Rockies, but it gets colder than a witch's teat in winter.

My preferred destination: Montreal. The coolest people in North America live there, and the most attractive girls on the planet go to McGill. It has a great arts scene, is ultra liberal and has more strip clubs controlled by the Hell's Angels than any city in the world.

[El Blanco]

So, because you disagree with the current administration, you are going to leave? In other words, the system is ok as long as you come out on top. Great attitude.

I never said "love it or leave it". One of the best things about this country is the way the average guy does make a difference( no matter what certain people here will say). I think its great the way so many different opinions can express themselves so freely. But, you are ready to leave as soon as things seem to not go your way.

Fine. You won't be missed. I hope you feel better sniping from afar and taking the coward's route.

I think Clinton was one of the worste president's ever. I was sick when he was re-elected. But did I make threats to skip the country? Hell no. I understood that in a democracy, somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. My opinion at the time was not amongst the majority of voters. I still held my opinion, but accepted that this was the way the system worked.

Is this country perfect? No, far from. There are lots of things I want to change, but I know turning tail and running won't fix it. My parents came here for a reason and it wasn't so I could live in Canada.

Of course, you could just be some little drama queen begging for people to pay attention like most people who use that ploy (on this board at least).

[ranxer]

mm, montreal. :)

don't go spad! we need everybody to turn this wrong headed beast around.

I'm not leaving till i serve a prison sentence for expressing my rights! hmm, or for wearing a puffy jacket etc.. er.. maybe I'm not leaving till chomsky, and kathy kelly are in prison.. oops, we're halfway there. oh well, i'm not leaving for at least 4 years anyway damnit!

re: voting paper trail
i thought the new voting machines won't be ready till 2005.

i've got a buddy that goes to central america somewheres and he says the american population there doubles every 4 months in the last year.. and those folks aren't on vacation!

[mburbank]

El Blanco, I respectfully disagree. That's coming from someone who will almost certainly stay.

But not without trepadation.

Reagan? I felt like I held the short end of the stick?

Bush I? Very short end from my perspective.

This feels qualatatively different for me. It approaches how I would hve felt (only approaches at this point) during the McCarthy Era. I feel our democracy is threatened. Now the country swung away from McCarthy, and we haven't gone so far yet, but this administration frightens me in ways I have never felt before. I feel they are capable of things there predecessors have not been, and I feel they are far more agressively activist than anything I've ever seen. Well before 9/11 W. was acting like a President who'd won a landslide as opposed to an electoral college victor. I think he feels his mandate comes not from his constituents but from God.

The main reason I'm alive is that at some point my great grandparents knew life was no longer tenable in Russia, Poland, and Germany. If they'd picked rance for their destination, I'd almost certainly never have gotten born. This makes me feel a great deal of loyalty to the United States. But it's also a history that makes me wonder at what point do you see the writting on the wall and think of Grandchildren yet to be.

I never even thought along these lines, it never even crossed my mind until I saw what I think is this administration's active use of 9/11 to futher it's agenda as quickly and as far as possible in every arena. For me this isn't Reagan and it isn't Bush I. This is something entirely different.

[sspadowsky]

So, because you disagree with the current administration, you are going to leave? In other words, the system is ok as long as you come out on top. Great attitude.

I never said "love it or leave it". One of the best things about this country is the way the average guy does make a difference( no matter what certain people here will say). I think its great the way so many different opinions can express themselves so freely. But, you are ready to leave as soon as things seem to not go your way.

Fine. You won't be missed. I hope you feel better sniping from afar and taking the coward's route.

I think Clinton was one of the worste president's ever. I was sick when he was re-elected. But did I make threats to skip the country? Hell no. I understood that in a democracy, somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. My opinion at the time was not amongst the majority of voters. I still held my opinion, but accepted that this was the way the system worked.

Is this country perfect? No, far from. There are lots of things I want to change, but I know turning tail and running won't fix it. My parents came here for a reason and it wasn't so I could live in Canada.

Of course, you could just be some little drama queen begging for people to pay attention like most people who use that ploy (on this board at least).

Pre-emptive strike: Any of you uber-patriot types can stick it. I've got my reasons for this, so don't even bother with any idiotic rants.

Fuck you, you arrogant rat-bastard prick. I said I have my reasons and don't have time to list them all. Taking the coward's route? I invite you to blow me. I guess all the people who came here from China or India ar wherever else, because they weren't satisfied with how things were in their homeland, must've been cowards too, huh?

I am well aware that our country is not perfect, but it's getting much farther from perfect every day, especially under the current administration. People need to get used to the idea that, while it may not end in our lifetime, this country is not going to be around forever. I see bad things on the horizon. Time will tell.

And what is this about "making threats"? I made a simple statement, and specifically said for assholes like you to save your comments.

Ignorant fucks always say "love it or leave it," so now I'm getting bitched at because I'm considering the possibility of leaving it? Suck my white ass, Blanco.

[sspadowsky]

I just read Max's post, and his statements closely, but not entirely, reflect my reasons. And, as I said, time will tell.

[Protoclown]

I just wanted to say that El Blanco is wrong. You WILL be missed if you leave, Spad.

I can't blame you for wanting to get out, I have this foreboding sense of dread as well, like there are horrible things on the horizon, but I also feel like the pendulum will swing back, later if not sooner.

I currently have no intentions of leaving this country, but I can certainly identify with those who do. I absolutely do not think Bush will get re-elected, and even if he does, I'm going to hold out hope that he doesn't do too much more damage.

Regardless of what happens, I hope you don't leave Spad, because I think we need people like you who are well informed and vehemently outspoken against the bullshit now more than ever.

[sspadowsky]

Thanks, Proto. You're a good Joe. :(

Don't get the wrong impression here. It's not like I've got my bags packed and am standing at the harbor, waiting for the first boat out of here. We'll see what happens in the next couple of years. If Bush gets elected (not re-elected), I'm gone. The man is dangerous, and, like Max, I am frightened by his actions and his agenda.

I think this country is rotting from the inside out. I think we're too ignorant and self-absorbed, and too caught up in being consumer whores and sports fans, to pay attention to the truly important shit, because the truly important shit is boring. And over the next several years, if this country stays its course, things will get worse incrementally, until it's a true police state, and it'll be too late to do much about it. We don't need to worry about terrorism threatening this country- odds are that we'll end up destroying it ourselves, through our own ignorance.

[El Blanco]

I said I have my reasons and don't have time to list them all.

The reason you emphasized was that you don't like the current administration.

I guess all the people who came here from China or India ar wherever else, because they weren't satisfied with how things were in their homeland, must've been cowards too, huh?

So, where are the Purges here? Are you living in abject poverty with no real hope of recovery? Is there a plague bursting out here? Has your back yard been carpet bombed lately?

Most of those people went a speciffic country (usually USA sometimes Canada or England) because that country gave them a better situation. You just are running away from a spot that doesn't perfectly cater to your political ideals. Big fucking difference.

If you move to another country because that country gives you a better situation to raise your kids or something, I wouldn't bitch about that. But you are scurrying away with your tail between your legs because you don't like the president. And you'll make your snipes from afar and come back when another president you like gets elected.

am well aware that our country is not perfect, but it's getting much farther from perfect every day, especially under the current administration. People need to get used to the idea that, while it may not end in our lifetime, this country is not going to be around forever. I see bad things on the horizon. Time will tell.

So your solution is to run? You think this as bad as its been or that this is the worste threat we've ever seen? Give me a fucking break and pick up a history book.

And what is this about "making threats"? I made a simple statement, and specifically said for assholes like you to save your comments.

"If you don't agree with me, shut up." Fuck you. You posted on a message board where everyone can see it, retard. Don't get pissy because someone with a difference in opinion responds. Thats what bloggers are for.

Ignorant fucks always say "love it or leave it,"

And I think its a stupid thing to say. And if their so ignorant, why are you taking their advice?

so now I'm getting bitched at because I'm considering the possibility of leaving it?

You're doing it like some snotty little brat who takes his ball and goes home.


And Max, I see why your grandparents moved. But, its a lot different here. The factors are a lot different. Soldiers aren't breaking your doors down to drag you to a concentration camp( armed populace after all). If a dictator ever does sieze power, it will only because the victim mentality sspad seems to be embracing made it possible. The government is only as powerful as we let it be. And don't you think comparing Bush to Hitler and Stalin is just a little disrespectful to your grandparents and thje victims of those lunatics? [/quote]

[Anonymous]

I, too, will miss you if you decide to go, Sspad. You're like the older friend who would buy me and my buddies beer when we were only 14.


Still, if you do go, stay the hell out of Canada. I called it first!

[Perndog]

I still fail to understand the need that uber-patriots feel to force their own "America is great" feelings on everyone else who happens to live here. Know why my ancestors immigrated? They were offered free land. If they had gotten land in the Netherlands or Denmark they probably would have had exactly the same lifestyle. So what do I owe the United States? What enormous obligation do I or does sspad have to stick with a nation that we might like to leave behind?

[AChimp]

Winnipeg is nice, unless you're looking for a decent job. :P

[Buffalo Tom]

I think we're too ignorant and self-absorbed, and too caught up in being consumer whores and sports fans, to pay attention to the truly important shit, because the truly important shit is boring. And over the next several years, if this country stays its course, things will get worse incrementally, until it's a true police state, and it'll be too late to do much about it. We don't need to worry about terrorism threatening this country- odds are that we'll end up destroying it ourselves, through our own ignorance.

I've had the same feeling about Western society in general, actually. I mean, in this age of supposed globalism and accessible information, the electorate in various Western democracies have blinders on their eyes, and are ignorant of what is going on not only internationally, but within their own borders. As long as they get to drive their SUVs and to sit comfortably in their leather chairs on 'Must See TV' night, people are content to leaving matters of state to scoundrels and incompetents. In explaining the workings of democracies, academics and pundits like to bring up the concept of checks and balances to describe how each of the three traditional branches of government is a watchdog of the other two. I think a fourth entity needs to be factored into this discussion, and that is the voting public at large. Democracy only works when the citizenry is informed and active in questioning the policies of the administration of the day.

[Baalzamon]

Soldiers aren't breaking your doors down to drag you to a concentration camp( armed populace after all).

lol, armed populace my ass. I am sure the military is SOOO scared of your daddys shotgun.

[sspadowsky]

You're doing it like some snotty little brat who takes his ball and goes home.

Are you intentionally being stupid? That expression implies that I am somehow depriving other people of something important or necessary to them. Not the case, my white friend. I am simply saying, "You know, I don't feel too keen on how things are going here. I just might mosey on to somewhere else."

So why is it that you're taking this as some affront? Though you have the right to bitch me out for what I think, I still have the right to say what I think. And I'll just be terribly heartbroken if you somehow think less of me.

But, its a lot different here. The factors are a lot different. Soldiers aren't breaking your doors down to drag you to a concentration camp( armed populace after all).

So fucking what? Do I have to wait until it gets to that point to feel justified? I don't know what's down the road a few years, but I don't like the prospects. I think you're "misunderestimating" the Bush regime.

Hey, I'll be around a while yet. I'll be voting and writing my congressmen and working with the ACLU, of which I am a member, and all that other good stuff, to try and make a difference. I hope it works. But if things keep going in the direction they're going right now, I don't plan on sticking around a lot longer.

Let's put it this way: If you're trapped in a buillding with a time bomb, are you going to try to get out while you've got fifteen minutes left, or are you going to wait until you're down to ten seconds?

[mburbank]

I don't think Bush is Stalin or Hitler. I think he is a precursor. Writting on the wall is what you see before Jackboots in the street. This administration is pushing the nevelope of the possible. Sticking their toes in the water of doing away with habeus Corpus, making a trial run at concentration camps and disapearances. It's early days, but if I were ever to go, I'd want to go as an emigree and not a refugee.

I think we'll get through this, and I think that we'll look back on some of the things our government is doing now with the same sort of shame we regard McCarthy and Japanese interment camps.

It's not that I don't think there's an outside threat. I just think we've reacted to it as badly as we could have. I think we fought the wrong people for the wrong reasons and aliented at allies and threw away the enormous good will we briefly had. I think that sayimng we are at 'War' with terrorists, instead of pursuing criminals, creates a war that isn't meant to end. I think it's 'war' becuase presidents acrue extroadinary powers during war time.

A lot of my relatives hung around Europe just a little too long. I think the trick is in not waiting for the purges and pogroms but seeing them on the horizon.

I don't see them. I see the conditions for them potentially arising. But I have two little girls and sometimes I wonder if my eyesight is trustworthy enough.

[Buffalo Tom]

Let's put it this way: If you're trapped in a buillding with a time bomb, are you going to try to get out while you've got fifteen minutes left, or are you going to wait until you're down to ten seconds?

It depends on whether Keanu Willis is the renegade cowboy cop on duty who does things his own damn way.

[mburbank]

YOU'RE A LOOSE CAN KEANU WILLIS! ONE MORE SCREW UP AND I'LL HAVE YOUR BADGE!!

[Buffalo Tom]

YOU'RE A LOOSE CAN KEANU WILLIS! ONE MORE SCREW UP AND I'LL HAVE YOUR BADGE!!

Ha, that's too funny a typo to edit. I'd hate to ruin your joke.

[Miss Modular]

Well, Sspad, I always thought if worse came to worse, I'd go to France. But the French Gov't has an increasingly right-wing stranglehold, and there's a lot of tension between the Arabs and the Jews. Jacques Chirac is alright, but he practically had a Fascist running against him last time. Even its movie industry, which has churned out some of my favorite movies ever, is moving toward making more conventional, less inspired movies.

Like Proto, I have no plans of leaving our country, but if I did, I'd pick Switzerland. It's neutral, the Geography is nice, and they make nice knives.

[Buffalo Tom]

Like Proto, I have no plans of leaving our country, but if I did, I'd pick Switzerland. It's neutral, the Geography is nice, and they make nice knives.

Don't forget, if you're a facist government, then there is no country with banks and governments as institutionally blind as the ones in Switzerland, who will gladly launder the money you steal from the victims of your pogroms.

[ItalianStereotype]

Sspad, I wouldn't want you to go either. While we may be as ideologically opposed as anybody ever could be, I believe that we both want what is best for America. Dissident voices are a sign of a healthy democracy and yours is one of the few intelligent ones these days.

If you're looking for a place where people aren't ignorant or self-absorbed, I think you'll be disappointed by most of Europe (from my personal experiences, at least). But if you do decide to leave the country, I would suggest Italy.

[Ant10708]

Neutral countries are the easiest targets.


I think moving out of America won't really solve anything. When we go down we are going to take everyone with us. And America won't be going down in our lifetimes anyways. Our government is built to prevent the things you think Bush will become from happening. He won't be taking over the country as a dictator. But don't move to Europe. They are a museum. They just want to be there. They want nothing new or exciting. That atleast is my experience with the Europeans and countires in Europe. If you like hooker,s drugs and good beer move to Amsterdam.

[sspadowsky]

Thanks, Italian. I really do hope things change for the better here.

A year or two ago, Miss Modular brought up the fact that only two democratic republics had lasted over two hundred years- the Roman Empire, and us. Ever since then, I've thought a lot about that, and what would happen if the shit hit the fan here. I mean, it does happen. Empires fall. Ask the British, or the Mongols, or the Romans. I think that things have gotten so good and so easy in standard-of-living terms, that it seems we've developed a sort of immortality/invincibility complex. Well, we're neither. And we, as a country, need to get that through our heads as quickly and thoroughly as possible. We've grown complacent and lazy, and as a result, our constitution has been trampled, and more of our rights are being stripped away. I'm not confident that the populace will get its collective shit together in time, but I do still hold on to hope.

[Ant10708]

I agree with you and I think if we look at the fall of Rome we can find many paralells to the United States and its current state.

[sspadowsky]

Our government is built to prevent the things you think Bush will become from happening.

Ant, Bush is stripping away the checks and balances. He is dismantling the government we all learned about in Civics class. EDIT: And it's not just Bush that I'm afraid of. It's also what's going to come after him. Like Max said, Bush is a precursor. Through repeatedly invoking 9-11, he and his crew have gotten away with shit that no one could ever have pulled off before. Those that follow him will likely be worse than he is.

[Immortal Goat]

I was getting very pissed off when you were being accused of whining, Sspad. All you were doing was asking for advice. I can see where you are coming from, too. I may only be 18, but I like to pay attention to politics, and I do not like the way the future looks for this country. Go ahead and move where you want, just make sure you have the internet so you can stay on these old boards. In my book, you will always be welcome here.







Oh, and I wouldn't reccomend Tibet or Etheopia, although you could probably afford to buy both of them.

[The One and Only...]

LEAVE, DAMN IT.

I might lead the next Civil War, since there really isn't a libertarian country to emmigrate to.

[Buffalo Tom]

LEAVE, DAMN IT.

I might lead the next Civil War, since there really isn't a libertarian country to emmigrate to.

So you're saying you would lead a civil war to impose a system of governance where every person is free to do what he/she wants?

How libertarian of you, you ideological moron.

[The One and Only...]

I'd probably just take a couple states out of the union, and leave the rest alone if Abe Lincoln II didn't come along.

[mburbank]

Chess Club, Fencing and now the REBEL ALIANCE!!! WHOOOO-HOOOO!! WATCHOUT!! I can here the stampeding feet of your follower!

[Suck 'n' Fuck]

Sspad, I think you should seriously look into moving to Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, or Holland. The vast majority of people in those countries speak english, so the language barrier is no big deal.

Thanks to the welfare state model, the Scandinavian countries have some of the best living standards in the world. For example, Norway is #1 on the UN's quality of life index or whatever the fuck that thing is called. Holland is all right, and they have legal pot. It isn't 100% legal but that doesn't matter.

I've done a lot of research into those countries, especially Sweden, Norway, and Holland. I'm seriously considering moving to Europe, most likely Sweden, Holland, or Norway, after I graduate from college.

Good luck escaping the clutches of the thought police.

[The One and Only...]

That's because the WHO is a big, giant, and steaming crock of shit.

[Helm]

Come to greece. I'll let you stay at my place indefinately because I like you and I don't mind being irritated. Good food, good people, hairy women. We have a vast gray city which is athens and it's very comfortable to be a nameless nobody until you die in one of it's appartments. I touch walls as I walk the road to the dentist (hey, social health care!) and my fingertips go solid black from the soldified smog and dust. Women smile to you in the street and you don't have to smile back unless you like that sort of thing. There's magazines on the stands that have been out of date for months, and if you look hard enough you'll find an underground store specializing in anything a man could ever want. You can use the faulty subway system and have smelly drunks rub themselves on you, while nameless building after nameless building sweeps by outside. There's people that like what you like here and you can get to see them only for as much as you like at the time. There's going to be a war soon, and that's going to be terrible. I like greece.

[Suck 'n' Fuck]

That's because the WHO is a big, giant, and steaming crock of shit.

The Guess Who?

[Jeanette X]

And what is this about "making threats"? I made a simple statement, and specifically said for assholes like you to save your comments.

"If you don't agree with me, shut up." Fuck you. You posted on a message board where everyone can see it, retard. Don't get pissy because someone with a difference in opinion responds. Thats what bloggers are for.


Since when is saying "shut up" a threat? :blah

[El Blanco]

I was refering to sspad's threat to leave. I don 't actually think it will happen, just a lot of hot air.

The whole "shut up" thing was what really pissed me off. The whole rant felt like some desperate cry for attention.

"I'm leaving and I want a bunch of people to post and say how much they love me. And if you have a different opinion, you suck and are an asshole."

That is basically what I read at the begining of the thread. The rest became the same party line being towed.

Ironically, had sspad not made the whole "assholes who have different opinions shut up" comment, I would have made a quick smart ass remark and left it at that.

[Dole]

He didnt sound like that at all. And what 'party line' is he towing exactly?

[sspadowsky]

Un-bunch those panties there, El Blanco.

I'll restate it for you (again): I'm not threatening anything. It's not a "cry for attention." I'm simply putting forth the idea that there's a strong possibility that things may get very unpleasant in this country over the next several years, and it might be a good idea to think about going somewhere else before it goes completely to hell.

I'm not naive enough to think that any other place would be some kind of utopia. There's always a trade-off.

I also said that we'll see how things unfold over the next couple of years, and go from there. I said that I'm not standing at the harbor, waiting for the first boat out of here. I'll go out on a limb and guess that reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit in school.

And I didn't say "shut up." I said I had my own personal reasons for this, so any uber-patriots could save their rants. That means they are MY FUCKING PERSONAL REASONS- consequently, they are no reflection on you as an American citizen, and have no bearing or effect on you in any way. So quit acting like I'm somehow insulting you. Well, except for when I called you a rat-bastard prick. Then I was insulting you. But by then you were asking for it.

[Ant10708]

If you move to some Asian country you could live comfortably for many years with 30 grand.