Colorado campuses "Too Liberal"?

[Miss Modular]

http://coloradodaily.com/articles/2003/12/19/news/news01.txt

Reps hear of biases

By ADAM EWING Colorado Daily Staff Writer
As students across the state end a politically charged semester marked with controversy over academic freedom, several students from Colorado colleges and universities met at the State Capitol Thursday to tell an ad hoc legislative committee just how biased Colorado campuses are.

One self-proclaimed conservative student after another spoke to the bipartisan Senate committee telling Senate President John Andrews, a Centennial Republican, and other members about their problems at what they consider to be Colorado's liberal college campuses.

CU-Boulder political science major Nate Strauch said a past economics professor used his teaching position as a "soapbox."

"Unfortunately, this professor used his course not as a learning experience, but rather as a soapbox for liberal indoctrination," he said to legislators that included Rep. Alice Madden, D-Boulder; Sen. Terry Phillips, D- Boulder County, Sen. Ken Arnold R-Broomfield and several other lawmakers.

Other students took their turns, explaining how they thought they had been discriminated against.

Mark Daley, a political science doctoral student at Colorado State University, said his hardships at CSU have delayed the completion of his career goals.

"In spite of degrees in political science and environmental science, I was required to take two additional semesters of courses before I would be considered for admittance (into the doctoral program)," Daley said.

Brian Glotzbach, a Metro student, said he has seen the required books other students buy for classes. He said most of the books are by liberal authors.

"What Michael Moore has to do with an American history class is anyone's guess," he said. "My question is, where are the books by Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly?"

The evidence the students offered was anecdotal - with many admitting they had not taken their grievances up with their respective institutions.

Some in the crowd wondered why Andrews was pursuing such a topic a day after presidents from Colorado's state colleges and universities held a press conference to explain the state's dire funding picture for higher education.

The executives said the state's general fund support for higher education could be gone by 2010, a fact supported by CU's Office of Budget and Finance.

Madden said typical legislative ad hoc meetings provide a neutral presentation of basic facts. She said she is concerned about the "questionable premise upon which this event is structured, adding "By mimicking the structure of a Legislative committee" participants and the public are being done "a disservice."

Sen. Bob Hagedorn (D-Arapahoe), who has taught political science at Denver's Metropolitan State College for 18 years, said Thursday's meeting was not a "witch hunt" like U.S. Sen. Joseph McCarthy's during the 1950s, which sought out possible communists in government.

Hagedorn said there are many different potential reasons for faculty to be perceived as biased.

"What's on the surface can be more deceptive than what the truth is," he added. "One of the things I worry about is this evolving into a witch hunt where a faculty member would be harassed into leaving," Hagedorn said.

He said he doesn't think bias is a problem now, but that hearings might be a good way to know if such a problem exists one way or the other.

"I don't feel like my time was wasted and I am more sensitive to things I might say in class," Hagedorn told the Colorado Daily.

Senate Minority Leader Joan Fitz-Gerald (D-Golden), who was not a participant on the committee, called Andrews' ad hoc meeting a "kangaroo committee" and said Andrews' concerns were focused on lesser issues.

"By raising this issue, Sen. Andrews is trying to distract from the real problems in higher education, which are affordability and accessibility," Fitz-Gerald said. " These proceedings do a disservice to the legislature by fostering a witch hunt of faculty who have no opportunity to defend themselves."

Metro student Joel Tagert had a brief moment to address the lawmakers.

He said information about Thursday's meeting was not publicized to all students and amounted to an "ideological crusade," taking away from the more important topic of the higher education budget shortfall.

The subject of academic freedom and liberal bias on campus heated up this summer when David Horowitz, a conservative author and critic from California, came to Colorado and met with Andrews and Gov. Bill Owens to discuss the notion of his Academic Bill of Rights - a measure he claimed would address the liberal bias on Colorado campuses and other campuses around the nation.

Madden said she would like to have a committee to address some of the problems that she considers to be important. Being in the minority (as a Democrat in the Republican Legislature), Madden said she has been cut off when the majority didn't like what she was saying.

"So I congratulate President Andrews, sincerely, for his efforts and his organization (of the hearings) that got exposure for this issue," Madden said. "I just wish we could give much attention to the many other people who could use our help."

___________

Choice Quote:

"What Michael Moore has to do with an American history class is anyone's guess," he said. "My question is, where are the books by Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly?"

:lol

[CastroMotorOil]

I beleive he meant that if micheal moore was a history author, so were they.

At least that is what i hope he meant, because otherwise that just makes us slight conservatives look really really really stupid :(

[Anonymous]

I'd want an Ann Coulter history book for my birthday,

[Occupant]

Alls I gotta say is that what this group of students is doing can only be acceptable if the practice of testifying in front of this ad hoc legislative committee over course content turns out to be a two way street. For some reason I find it hard to believe that a group of 'liberal' students would find the same eager audeince in the legislature if ever such a need may arise.

[El Blanco]

Why do you assume that?

Hell, its no secret that most colleges have a liberal slant.

[Occupant]

Why do you assume that?

Hell, its no secret that most colleges have a liberal slant.


I'm not arguing any college's leaning liberal or conservative. All I'm saying is that if, for the sake of arguement, a college were to have a noticable conservative bias and a group of students decided try taking their gripe in front of the legislature they'd need a hell of a lot more ammunition than the liberal equivalent of 'he made us read Michael Moore' if they were to have any hope of not being laughed out of the building. Would these 'liberal' students be taken seriously?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Why do you assume that?

Hell, its no secret that most colleges have a liberal slant.

Now here's the question that hasn't been asked: If this school is so liberal, and the faculty is so incompetent as to assign Michael Moore for class reading, why then do these folks even want to get into their Phd program....?

If a school doesn't fit my needs for graduate work, I won't be applying there. And it isn't necessarily about finances, b/c graduate school is a slightly different animal. I will not be applying to Bob Jones University in the Fall of '04.......

EDIT: Let me expand upon this. Are these conservatives bitching because they wish to save the "integrity" of Colorado State, or are they doing this to raise hell and make a point that, as Blanco previously pointed out, is already clear....? A lot of conservative groups on campuses, realizing they're in a minority, do eye grabbing shit to get attention. I'd be interested to know how many of these kids who testified are members of the campus' College Republican club, or equivalent clubs.....?

[mburbank]

Did a professor actually require students to buy a Michael Moore book for a class?

"Brian Glotzbach, a Metro student, said he has seen the required books other students buy for classes. He said most of the books are by liberal authors."

He never said it was a text he was required to buy, he said he's 'seen' it. The whole thing sounds like a highly questionable bitch session to me. If I were to testify before an Ad Hoc legislative commitee, I would bring actual evidence, which in this particularly easy to acquire in the form of a syllabus. Where I a legislator on an Ad Hoc committe, I'd like to think I'd want evidence as opposed to disgruntled student whining. I think the main thing thee kids should be complaining about is that their proifessors obviously haven't instilled any academic rigour or pride in them.

The same might be said for the Journalist who wrote the article but didn't look very deeply into any of the complaints. As a reader, I'd want to know.

[The One and Only...]

It depends on the college. If it's partially paid for by the state, obviously it shouldn't be biased.

See, if it were like George Mason University, which is extremely pro-market in its economics department but, to my knowledge, is not funded by the state, it would be alright.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Schools and departments within universities, including state universities, hire internally. If the chair of a political science department happens to favor quantitative research over historical/theory based research, they will push to hire around that premise. New faculty are hired by committees, including the chair, generally. They will hire according to need, because a department is far more concerned with appealing to a broad spectrum than appealing to simply "Liberals."

Now, if the argument is that liberals in general tend to be drawn to academia, then that's a totally different matter. One, might I add, not exclusive to Colorado State.

[CastroMotorOil]

As a college student at Western Michigan University, I have noticed that professers tend to be more liberal. This is noticiable since the student body here is split at least 50/50 if not more conservative then liberal (western michigan is one of the more conservative areas of the nation if i remember correctly). I do not know why more teachers seem to be liberal but i can't deny noticing it. I also rember high school debate to be insanely liberal.

[kahljorn]

If I went to college, would I have to pick a "Side"?

[The One and Only...]

Schools and departments within universities, including state universities, hire internally. If the chair of a political science department happens to favor quantitative research over historical/theory based research, they will push to hire around that premise. New faculty are hired by committees, including the chair, generally. They will hire according to need, because a department is far more concerned with appealing to a broad spectrum than appealing to simply "Liberals."[/url]

However, no professor at a state subsidized school should allow his biased views to influence the way he teaches.

[quote]Now, if the argument is that liberals in general tend to be drawn to academia, then that's a totally different matter. One, might I add, not exclusive to Colorado State.

I would not say that liberals tend to be drawn to academia any more than others.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

However, no professor at a state subsidized school should allow his biased views to influence the way he teaches.

This is complete hogwash. You hire a Phd because they have presumably put years of research, studying, and reading into their craft. You hire them because they come from a reputable institution or institutions. You review their dissertation, look at what they've published, how much they've published and where, etc.

You've heard the saying "publish or perish," right? Not only do professors share their biased opinions every day, but this is what they are hired to do. When you hire a financial consultant, you don't stop to question his philosophy on the market. You trust his record, his experience, and his background. Same thing.

I would not say that liberals tend to be drawn to academia any more than others.

Of course you wouldn't, because you're not a liberal, and you consider yourself an academic. But to my knowledge you haven't stepped foot in a college classroom, am I correct? If liberals aren't drawn to academia, why is everyone bitching about liberalism on campus....?

[The One and Only...]

This is complete hogwash. You hire a Phd because they have presumably put years of research, studying, and reading into their craft. You hire them because they come from a reputable institution or institutions. You review their dissertation, look at what they've published, how much they've published and where, etc.

You've heard the saying "publish or perish," right? Not only do professors share their biased opinions every day, but this is what they are hired to do. When you hire a financial consultant, you don't stop to question his philosophy on the market. You trust his record, his experience, and his background. Same thing.

Whatever dribble is coming out of your mouth is complete hogwash. Professors are hired to teach information objectively when at college. They should not be allowed to teach "capital punishment is immoral" or "free trade is inhumane" any more than I should be allowed to say "we should murder all the lefties" in a classroom. Or do you not have a problem with that if I am a professor? Hell, a professor should not be allowed to make such statements even if facts support him if he ignores facts that oppose his position.

Think about how government could screw us over if objectivity is thrown out of the window. It would subsidize schools that support its actions and further involvement in the economy. Or, if conservatives gained control, might seek to change public opinion on abortion, church and state, or foreign affairs.

In any case, how can you possibly defend seizing anothers assets and using it to hire someone whom I completely disagree with?

Of course you wouldn't, because you're not a liberal, and you consider yourself an academic. But to my knowledge you haven't stepped foot in a college classroom, am I correct? If liberals aren't drawn to academia, why is everyone bitching about liberalism on campus....?

I think you'll find that most of the kids on campus are not so much drawn to academia as they are to beer, sex, and the chance to attain a higher pay load.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Whatever dribble is coming out of your mouth is complete hogwash.Professors are hired to teach information objectively when at college. They should not be allowed to teach "capital punishment is immoral" or "free trade is inhumane" any more than I should be allowed to say "we should murder all the lefties" in a classroom. Or do you not have a problem with that if I am a professor? Hell, a professor should not be allowed to make such statements even if facts support him if he ignores facts that oppose his position.

1. :wah

2. :rolleyes

3. You are a petulant little kid. If professors don't publish at a four year institution, they are fired. They are HIRED to be critical and have biased opinions.

And as for your nonsense about "murdering all the lefties" as compared to "capital punishment is immoral," the comparison is absurd, and you deserve to be hit with a stupid stick. Capital punishment is a contentious issue that deserves its place in any ethics, sociology, or even public policy class. A good professor will fully disclose their biases, as opposed to muting them. A good professor will have open and frank debate within the class, allowing all sides to be heard. But expecting a professor to be silent and not give their educated opinions on the subject they specialize in, all because you have some retarded anti-government, utopian perspective on hoe college campuses run, is ridiculous.

Think about how government could screw us over if objectivity is thrown out of the window. It would subsidize schools that support its actions and further involvement in the economy. Or, if conservatives gained control, might seek to change public opinion on abortion, church and state, or foreign affairs.

In any case, how can you possibly defend seizing anothers assets and using it to hire someone whom I completely disagree with?

Again, look to the evidence, and then look to those who testified. Were the professors calling for a Maoist revolution? Were they calling for government seizure and collectivization of property? No. Were they telling females to have abortions and foresake God? No. The fact is, we don't know WHAT crimes thse liberal demons commited. All we know is that a bunch of kids feel discriminated against. This is certainly worth investigating, and if ANY professors personal biases towards INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS led them to grade them differently, they must be canned. But blaming this on liberalism on campus would be like blaming my speeding ticket on conservatism in the police department (I DO have that Nader 2000 bumper sticker, after all).

Of course you wouldn't, because you're not a liberal, and you consider yourself an academic. But to my knowledge you haven't stepped foot in a college classroom, am I correct? If liberals aren't drawn to academia, why is everyone bitching about liberalism on campus....?

I think you'll find that most of the kids on campus are not so much drawn to academia as they are to beer, sex, and the chance to attain a higher pay load.

I'm talking about the faculty.

[The One and Only...]

1. :wah

2. :rolleyes

3. You are a petulant little kid. If professors don't publish at a four year institution, they are fired. They are HIRED to be critical and have biased opinions.

And as for your nonsense about "murdering all the lefties" as compared to "capital punishment is immoral," the comparison is absurd, and you deserve to be hit with a stupid stick. Capital punishment is a contentious issue that deserves its place in any ethics, sociology, or even public policy class. A good professor will fully disclose their biases, as opposed to muting them. A good professor will have open and frank debate within the class, allowing all sides to be heard. But expecting a professor to be silent and not give their educated opinions on the subject they specialize in, all because you have some retarded anti-government, utopian perspective on hoe college campuses run, is ridiculous.[/b]

I'm aware of the fact about publishing. I was speaking about what they should teach in the classroom.

So then, if the majority of philosophy teachers taught that Objectivism is correct, you would not have a problem with that?

What if the teachers graded you based on your opinions?

Again, look to the evidence, and then look to those who testified. Were the professors calling for a Maoist revolution? Were they calling for government seizure and collectivization of property? No. Were they telling females to have abortions and foresake God? No. The fact is, we don't know WHAT crimes thse liberal demons commited. All we know is that a bunch of kids feel discriminated against. This is certainly worth investigating, and if ANY professors personal biases towards INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS led them to grade them differently, they must be canned. But blaming this on liberalism on campus would be like blaming my speeding ticket on conservatism in the police department (I DO have that Nader 2000 bumper sticker, after all).

Taxation is an act of the government seizing and collecting property. In any case, you miss the point: is it moral for the government to hire people with my money that I disagree with?

I'm talking about the faculty.

In that case, I don't understand where you are coming from. While I have not, per say, been to college, I have been looking at colleges' and their professors' websites. My conclusions? Faculity at public universities tend to be more liberal, while faculity at private colleges lean more towards pro-market stances. I generally do not see conservativism in civil rights stances, although opposition to such things as Affirmative Action is more commonplace.

Example of a libertarian college (at least economically)? George Mason University, a well-respected Virginia institution. They even have an anarcho-capitalist in their midst.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm aware of the fact about publishing. I was speaking about what they should teach in the classroom.

So then, if the majority of philosophy teachers taught that Objectivism is correct, you would not have a problem with that?

What they should teach in the classroom is what they were hired to teach. If ANY philosophy department, however unlikely itmay be, were dominated by Objectivism, you'd have a few options. 1. Why is it so? Is the Chair of the department an Objectivist? Ask those questions. 2. If this school is clearly dominated by Objectivist philosophy, for whatever reason, is this then the right school for me? 3. If you have few options and MUST go to that school, are they allowing all opinions to be heard? Is this a conducive learning environment for most of the students in the classroom....?

What if the teachers graded you based on your opinions?

If this is proven, which is difficult, they should be fired.


Taxation is an act of the government seizing and collecting property. In any case, you miss the point: is it moral for the government to hire people with my money that I disagree with?

No, I got your point, and I dismissed it. YES, it is perfectly moral, and to expect otherwise would be silly. The school I went to, for example, had a liberal Political Science department. You knew who the liberals were, you knew who the conservatives were, and you likewise knew what "school" of polisci they subscribed to. The Business and Public Policy schools, on the other hand, tended to swingmore conservatively. I took classeswith them all, understood their biases, and appreciated them for disclosing those biases.


In that case, I don't understand where you are coming from. While I have not, per say, been to college, I have been looking at colleges' and their professors' websites. My conclusions? Faculity at public universities tend to be more liberal, while faculity at private colleges lean more towards pro-market stances. I generally do not see conservativism in civil rights stances, although opposition to such things as Affirmative Action is more commonplace.

Then you haven't been looking at enough private institutions, and you haven't been looking internally at enough departments and schools within the universities. The Kennedy School, although not Left extreme, is a liberal school that sets the mark for government/polisci programs. And again, you need to distinguish departments. Are you telling me the Biology department at George Mason swings Libertarian? Of course not. The departments you are focusing on, perhapd philosophy, economics, business, political science, history, etc., have hired their faculty for their own reasons. More often than not, they are slightly to fit an ideology, but more importantly to fit a certain "philosophy" that isdebated within the field. I've given the political science example, quantitative versus qualitative research, etc. It's in my experience that schools tend to swing towards a "way" of teaching something, as opposed to a specific ideology....

[The One and Only...]

I still think you may be missing the issue, so I'll put it in broader terms: is it right for the goverment to provide public colleges which only hire teachers of certain ideologies? In other words, would you see a problem with public education systems hiring only left-wing individuals? If you do not, why do you object to public schools hiring only, say, whites?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I still think you may be missing the issue, so I'll put it in broader terms: is it right for the goverment to provide public colleges which only hire teachers of certain ideologies?

No, I got your point, and I dismissed it. YES, it is perfectly moral, and to expect otherwise would be silly. The school I went to, for example, had a liberal Political Science department. You knew who the liberals were, you knew who the conservatives were, and you likewise knew what "school" of polisci they subscribed to. The Business and Public Policy schools, on the other hand, tended to swingmore conservatively. I took classeswith them all, understood their biases, and appreciated them for disclosing those biases.


In other words, would you see a problem with public education systems hiring only left-wing individuals? If you do not, why do you object to public schools hiring only, say, whites?

This is again a ridiculous comparison. Yes or No, do you think any potential hiree sits before the chosen department committee, and gets forced to answer the question "Der, is you a liberal or a Southerner??? Der, what party is you in???"

Professors are hired based on record, reputation, and publishing experience. Do certain academic fields tend to attract liberals more than conservatives? I won't deny it. But what you ask for is impossible and silly. Asking that a professor, who earned his occupation by being critical and taking positions on matters, to NOT take those positions AT ALL in the classrooom is absurd. PERIOD.

[The One and Only...]

WHAT IS ABSURD IS GRANTING THE GOVERNMENT POWER TO DECIDE WHAT WE LEARN!!!

[Protoclown]

Gee, I always kind of figured that I alone possessed power to determine what I learned. I don't necessarily have the power to determine what I'm taught, but what I learn? All me, baby. All me.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

WHAT IS ABSURD IS GRANTING THE GOVERNMENT POWER TO DECIDE WHAT WE LEARN!!!

Take it up with the Ad Council, stop barking up the wrong tree.....

EDIT: Proto, I'm glad you said that, because that has always been my philosophy. I've had shitty classes (note: not liberal or conservative classes, just SHITTY classes) where what I got out of the class was all up to me. This is how I have approached higher education, as well as my selection with graduate schools. I don't really care how "reputable" the institution is anymore, or whatever, because I know that learning is within my own capabilities and desires. It was just nice to hear. :)

[The One and Only...]

Nevermind.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

boohoo.

[The One and Only...]

No, no... I meant nevermind with what I had posted, not with the point.