We must eliminate Chavez.

[The One and Only...]

If we do not rid Venezuela of Chavez, the country is going to go into deep, rabid poverty.

I call for an elimination of Chavez before he hurts his economy even more.

I'm serious. This guy publicly neglects any economic theory in his actions. If you look at Venezuela's economy during his reign, it has, quite literally, imploded upon itself.

Now he's going for a smash-and-grab on his banks, forcing them to loan to poor farmers. That may sound nice to Zhukov, but the victims know that the farmers will not be able to pay off these debts. We have a little something called "bank failure" when that happens. Maybe his friend Castro will bail him out.

[ranxer]

damn, i was hoping you never decided to post about him, i figured you'd be against him.. by yer opinion on most things you sound like a member of pnac, which is it yer religion or racism or are you financially tied to culture war? >:

i believe chavez to be a peoples president.. not at all like here,
his opposition seems to be pretty well funded i hope they continue to fail. there may be a peoples revolution there if they succeed

[Buffalo Tom]

If we do not rid America of George W. Bush, the country is going to go into deep, rabid poverty.

I call for an elimination of Bush before he hurts his economy even more.

I'm serious. This guy publicly neglects any economic theory in his actions. If you look at America's economy during his reign, it is, quite literally, on the verge of imploding upon itself.

Now he's going for a smash-and-grab on his country's social security pool, forcing average working citizens to fund his tax cuts which will benefit only the rich. That may sound nice to Cliff, but the victims know that this 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' will put America further into debt . We have little somethings called "bankruptcy" and "economic failure" when that happens. Maybe he thinks his dad will bail him out.

[Brandon]

YOU KNOW WHO I HATE?

CHAVEZ!

YOU KNOW WHAT I LOVE?

ECONOMIC THEORY!

[Emu]

INDEED!

[mburbank]

We must eliminate OAO.

[The One and Only...]

Except that, Tom, that simply isn't true. The economy has far from imploded under Bush. It has recovered. And while Bush may not be an expert on economics himself, he has advisors.

Tom, you may not understand why the government borrows money during a recession, or why the tax cuts benefit more than just the rich, but that's okay. Mommy will make it all better while you live inside your ivory tower. Social Security will still come back to give you presents under your tree at Christmas. It's not like it hasn't ALWAYS been virtually bankrupt...

Chavez is a joke. His people are starting to hate him. The intelligensia within the country deplore him. He's a gigantic mockery of socialism.

[Buffalo Tom]

How can Chavez be blamed for supposed ruinous policies? He is, after all, simply a figure head, and not responsible for the conduct of his underlings.

You ought to invest in Johnson & Johnson because you'll need a whack of BandAids for when the shards fall in your glass house. Brain-addled blowhard.

[Buffalo Tom]

Bush is a joke. His people are starting to hate him. The intelligensia within the country deplore him. He's a gigantic mockery of capitalism.

[Brandon]

I STILL HATE THAT FUCKING CHAVEZ.

[sspadowsky]

OH, AND BUFFALOTOM LANDS A RIGHT CROSS, AND OAO IS DOWN AGAIN! THE HUMANITY, PEOPLE! OH, THE HUMANITY!

[Dole]

"Mommy will make it all better while you live inside your ivory tower."

-you absolute fucking hypocrite.

[mburbank]

I'm not sure, but I sort of think the fate of Chavez should be up to the people he currently represents, (or doesn't, depending on your view of him).

If you seriously think "We" ought to "Eliminate" him, you are basically advocating our official dominance of the world, in in this regard I don't doubt for an instant that you admire Bush. But you're just a little hosebag weiner totsally in love withyourself and years away from even having the vote. You currently have no impact whatsoever in any way and one can always hope you either develope morally, mentally and spiritually or that in the words of Grover Norquist, someone finds you 'small enough' to 'drown in a bathtub'.

You supposedly favor free market Laissez faire capitalism. What exactly strikes you as laissez faire about 'eliminating' the leader of another country. Your just another egomaniacal closet facist with dellusions of grandeur.

[Buffalo Tom]

You supposedly favor free market Laissez faire capitalism. What exactly strikes you as laissez faire about 'eliminating' the leader of another country. Your just another egomaniacal closet facist with dellusions of grandeur.

And he's probably a stinky pants too! >:

[The One and Only...]

How can Chavez be blamed for supposed ruinous policies? He is, after all, simply a figure head, and not responsible for the conduct of his underlings.

Nice try, but, you know, Chavez doesn't even listen to his advisors. How could he be a figurehead when there is no political machine to control his actions? Hint: there isn't. You are taking things way out of context.

What Chavez's underlings have done, Chavez has authorized. This isn't a matter of a slip in intelligence; this is deliberate take-over.

Bush is a joke.

So are his opponents.

His people are starting to hate him.

Then why is he doing well in polls?

The intelligensia within the country deplore him.

Not true.

He's a gigantic mockery of capitalism.

He's barely a capitalist.

Laissez-faire only applies to capitalism, not to foreign affairs. Also, the thing I despise the most about this world is governmentally-enforced multiculturalism. And to be quite frank, the people of Venezuela don't like Chavez either - so I can't see your point in saying that we don't have the right to tell Venezuelans what to do.

[Buffalo Tom]

You're a laissez-faire liberal who advocates an interventionist foreign policy to force regime changes in other countries? That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one, with an emphasis on the 'moron'.

Where's your evidence that Venezuelan electorate is against Chavez? From the stories I've read, the general strike last year was fuelled by petroleum interests who were hurt by the Chavez government's move to nationalize the oil industry. Admittedly, I don't know much about the situation, other than Venezuela has been throwing a wrench in American-led efforts to create an interncontinental free trade zone. Still, you haven't presented compelling arguments to justify the idiotic action you're proposing. For a supposed student of history who has such an extensive base of worldly experiences from which to draw at the age of 15, you've done nothing but make Frankenstein-like pronouncements of 'water good, fire bad' in this, and in all, discussions.

Seriously, I know a good prostate surgeon who might be able to remove that huge pickle in your butt. Dweeb.

[The One and Only...]

I'm not advocating a war. I'm advocating a subtle assassination by revolutionaries. Yes, that's it. The United States does not even need to get involved...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/12/63045.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2317219.stm

He may have some supporters, but it should be clear to you that the majority, particularly the educated, are angry.

To confirm this, click here (http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/venezuela/unlikely.htm).

"his popularity has plunged to below 30 percent because of frustration with a stagnant economy and rising crime."

But my problem with Chavez goes beyond this. I'm seriously afraid that he will, somehow, change the constitution so that he will remain the president for his life. The strong opposition will likely stop this, but still...

Look. Eliminate does not necessarily mean murder or removed from political power. That I was half jesting about. My point is that he needs to be contained. We need a contingency plan incase he gets out of hand. Because this isn't the middle east - this is just south of the border.

[Anonymous]

Hmm...

I'm not advocating a war. I'm advocating a subtle assassination by revolutionaries.

Look. Eliminate does not necessarily mean murder or removed from political power.

I suppose now he's going to ask me to define assassination.

[Brandon]

Here's a classic OAO:

"YOU HAVE A VERY NARROW DEFINITION OF ASSASSINATION."

[The One and Only...]

Did you not read the line "That I was half jesting about"?

Actually, I was using the narrow version of assassination anyway. All we needed was a muslim and some hash...

[Anonymous]

Did you not read the line "That I was half jesting about"?

Yes; you're half serious about wanting Chavez assassinated.

[AChimp]

Look. Eliminate does not necessarily mean murder or removed from political power. That I was half jesting about. My point is that he needs to be contained. We need a contingency plan incase he gets out of hand. Because this isn't the middle east - this is just south of the border.

http://members.shaw.ca/achimp/map.jpg

[The One and Only...]

How do you know what border I was talking about?

[Anonymous]

Because he gave you the benefit of the doubt. From the US border around the southern tip of Florida is the shortest distance to Venezuela.

[mburbank]

OAO:

Do you have any friends? Seriously. 'Cause I think you might be missing out on some essentially human aspects of life.

[The One and Only...]

Yeah, I have friends. I just avoid doing anything with them after school.

I should be weightlifting, though.

[AChimp]

I'm sure there are a few 20 lb textbooks you could stuff in your Powerpuff Girls schoolbag.

[mburbank]

Seriously, you have friends at school? Other kids you chum around with? What do you do, totally hide every aspect of the personality you display here?

[The One and Only...]

Dude. This is a message board. I come here to deliberately act like a intellectually chauvinistic ass.

I do display some of my pompous characteristics and occasionally talk politics, but I rarely get into huge controversies and ramble on about tax codes.

[AChimp]

Hard to cut-and-paste in real life, huh?

[The One and Only...]

No, it bores people.

BTW: Chavez has brought the standard of living in Venezuela back to the level that it was during the 1940's.

[CastroMotorOil]

God i love this forum, 90% of the time OAO makes sense, yet everyone here is so fucking liberal and dead set against any type of conservatism that they jump on everything he says, as they will jump on me for voicing support of OAO. Plus the Bush hating for no real reason is also great as the country has actualyl gotten better under Bush as he cleans up clinton's mistakes.

[mburbank]

I jump on OAO for the WAY he thinks, not the thoughts themselves. I think mostly he cares a lot more about pumping more hot air into his own human dirigible self than the content of any stand he takes, I think he's way too glib and I think, especially when pushed, he emits buzz words and phrases like a squid emits ink and for the same reasons.

Would you put his suggestion that we 'eliminate' a foreign head of state in the 90% that makes sense or the 10% that doesn't? I'm just curious, it's not like I can fault you either way since currently reserveing the right to 'eliminate' whomever we please is part of US official foreign policy.

As far as the country getting better, I think that's pretty subjective and I strongly disagree. I can only say my opinion is the country is getting way worse, but that has a lot to do with what I think America ought to be. If you're using some sort of factual yardstick to judge the condition of the country, you ought to say what it is. Until then, I'll stick with my opinion of OAO and when he needs jumping on.

Thanks, though. And I'm glad you love this board. I do too.

[Buffalo Tom]

Plus the Bush hating for no real reason is also great as the country has actualyl gotten better under Bush as he cleans up clinton's mistakes.

Hmmm, let's see. The Bush Administration has squandered the global goodwill from the 9/11 attacks; it has generated a high-level of antipathy with countries around the world because of its tendency to act unilaterally on the international stage, with arrogance and with contempt for the concerns of other countries. American resources are being bled to fuel an anachronistic adventurist foreign policy. The Administration has failed to live up to its high-minded 'No child left behind' education reforms, by under-funding the program and establishing arbitrary and contradictory testing standards. The Administration has presided over a period of significant job loss, with some reports estimating the number of lost jobs at 3 million, yet it continues to do nothing to encourage companies to keep jobs in the United States. The Bush Administration paints itself as fiscally responsible, yet, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, the tax cuts announced in Bush's recent State of the Union address would cost more than $2 trillion U.S. over the next decade. The Administration touts itself ready to meet the security challenges in the wake of 9/11, yet spends money on unproven and unreliable security technology (biometrics come to mind) while not providing the domestic forces who are on the frontline of American emergency response with the necessary funds and resources to do their jobs.

When did sucking on helium tanks become the fashionable thing to do amongst residents from the planet Out-of-Touch?

[The One and Only...]

Wait a second. Did you just say that the Administration is not trying to produce job growth? What the hell do you think those tax cuts on the top 2% are for? Many of those guys are small business owners, and small businesses are the real job generation machines in this country. Greenspan's also helping out with the low interest rates, but he probably would have done that with any politician in place.

Another good reason to eliminate Chavez: oil.

[Buffalo Tom]

Another good reason to eliminate Chavez: oil.


Yes, I was wondering when you would bring up that issue. Either you were being disingenuous about your initial arguments for Chavez' removal, or you posted some conservative pundit's altruistic arguments for intervention in Venezuela before you got to the bottom of the editorial. I bet before you even came here, you thought Venezuela was the surname of the famous Dodgers pitcher. Please, enlighten us on your arguments for freeing the oppressed oil wells from the democratically-elected Chavez government's tyranny.

[Buffalo Tom]

Wait a second. Did you just say that the Administration is not trying to produce job growth? What the hell do you think those tax cuts on the top 2% are for? Many of those guys are small business owners, and small businesses are the real job generation machines in this country. Greenspan's also helping out with the low interest rates, but he probably would have done that with any politician in place.


If I am a small business owner and the tax I pay drops from $15, 000 to say $10, 000, I won't necessarily hire more people. Bush's logic in this regard is flawed. As well, from what I've read of the Administration's job creation strategy, there are no concrete provisions to encourage companies to use the money they will save from their tax cuts to create jobs. It's basically a 'Hail Mary' play that relies on corporate America acting without greed - something that some members of this community are incapable of doing, as proven by the scandals over Enron's collapse and Haliburton's military contracts.

[The One and Only...]

Well, you're right; it doesn't necessarily mean that you will. It does mean that it would be easier for you to do so, however, which increases the odds that you will.

Also remember that if the money is invested in stocks, it will fund a company's operations; if it is saved in a bank, it will go towards businesses in the form of a loan; and if it is consumed, it will be added to aggregate that businesses study in order to determine whether to increase productive capacity.

You say "democratically-elected" as if it has some relevance. New flash: Chavez has consolidated power to the point where he can't be taken out of power, regardless of whether or not his people want him out. Don't you find it the slightest bit odd that he's still being "democratically" elected when his approval ratings are below 30%?

The bottom line is Chavez lacks any understanding of what he's doing, his people would be better without him, and we could get a nice free trade deal for that oil. Ruffling more international feathers would not be wise, so if we want to take advantage of the situation, we'd have to do so quietly. A victory for Venezuela, a victory for America, and a victory for the world.

[Protoclown]

Say, you know someone who wasn't democratically elected? George W. Bush.

[CastroMotorOil]

burbank, you are right, that fell in the 10%, as for factual yardstick, that was me spouting off without hard factual backing, mostly based on what i know of economics, social policy yadda yadda yadda, i don't know nearly enough to start a major debate, so i'll refrain from that. I personally like bush, but am scared to death of john ashcroft.

[Buffalo Tom]

The bottom line is Chavez lacks any understanding of what he's doing, his people would be better without him, and we could get a nice free trade deal for that oil. Ruffling more international feathers would not be wise, so if we want to take advantage of the situation, we'd have to do so quietly. A victory for Venezuela, a victory for America, and a victory for the world.

If Venezuelans, in a post-Chavez era, elect a government that steadfastly refuses to privatize its oil industry, and refuses to participate in any Free Trade deal for the Americas, what do you propose the United States do then?

[mburbank]

Zorak: Okay doke. This is a spout off zone.


OAO: I think if you are in the top 2% of this countries income and you own a small business, it's probably a tax shelter. That is totally spouting off, I have no idea, but my guess is that yiou have to define the word 'small' pretty loosely to have it land you in the USA top 2%.

I also think that growing jobs was way far down on the list of reasons W's folks crafted the tax cuts the way they did, kind of lower than "Pay off bribes" , "slop the hogs" , "Enrich ourselves personally", "Curry future employment in the private sector", "Just for the sheer hell of it, I mean damn! We in charge of everything!" and "This should help them eat cake".

[The One and Only...]

Maybe so, but I doubt it. Corporations are vary good at manipulating tax shelters. Small business owners... are probably less able.

Not all of the small business owners are in the 2% bracket, but Bush's cuts went beyond such a narrow scope anyway. The main reason he would cut for the top 1% is to try and increase funding for banks, which are desperately needed with the interest rates being forced so low by the Feds.

[kellychaos]

Iraq ... Liberia ... Venezuela ... Bush having political problems with another world leading oil producer. What a suprise. :eek

OAO. Your mother called. She wants her crack pipe back. She asked that you stop by the strip bar to drop it off on the way home. She'll be on stage #2. Oh, and buy her a pack of Misty menthol lights. She'll pay you back.

[Rongi]

Hard to cut-and-paste in real life, huh?

That was too funny

[Zhukov]

Chavez recently said he was afraid of being killed by the US actually... I lost the article.

With or without Chavez the revolution continues. Killing him would be pretty nasty, but the workers and poor are conscious of their conditions and are willing to defend the gains of Chavez's mild reforms.

I know two Venezuelans, and they both like Chavez. That's 100%.

I really like Venezuela and I might go there in the future.

[The One and Only...]

Chavez recently said he was afraid of being killed by the US actually... I lost the article.

He should be. Bush had been voicing concerns over him in the early days, but they subsided.

With or without Chavez the revolution continues. Killing him would be pretty nasty, but the workers and poor are conscious of their conditions and are willing to defend the gains of Chavez's mild reforms.

I'm not so sure that 30% of the populace can continue a revolution. Sounds to me that the revolution is going in the opposite direction.

I know two Venezuelans, and they both like Chavez. That's 100%.

Well, that's great. But I'm going to go with the research here.

I really like Venezuela and I might go there in the future.

If you really want to live in the 1940's...

[Zhukov]

Well I don't beleive that only 30% support him. Especially after the atempted coup. We'll see after the referendum. The oposition had alot of trouble getting the 2.4 million signatures required to have a referendum you know.

Sounds to me that the revolution is going in the opposite direction.


That's because you don't know about the bolivarian revolution at all.

If you really want to live in the 1940's...
OUCH

[mburbank]

Dufus. I meant that a small business owner in the top 2% is making the bulk of his money some other way and is using the small business as a tax loss.

And you seriously think that the main reason behind Bush cutting the top 1% taxes was to increase bank loans? Honestly? It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he's a silver spoon numbfuck who's never known anybody but other silver spoon numbfucks and never sees pals around with anybody who can't buy a 2000 plate of pancakes out of pocketchange? And so he's grown up thinking that an ultrawealthy numbfuck having to think twice about another yacht or baseball team or self aggrandizing poorly concieved business venture is more of a tragedy than an average guy trying to figure out how to feed and clothe his kids, pay a mortage and a car payment and get through a cold winter and maybe God forbid take the wife to the movies this month without going even deeper into debt? You honestly think the major driving concern behind his tax plan was greasing the great economic wheel so all boats would rise with the tide? Newsflash. In a few more years your parents are going to stop paying your bills. About a decade later they'll get sick of you living at home.

[The One and Only...]

That's exactly what I'm saying that I believe, because I don't think there is a vast right-wing conspiracy aimed at destroying the poor and middle class so that they have to worship their wealthy masters.

Burbank, I really don't care about you or any of the poor people in this country. You know why? Hmm? Because you are rich. If you lived in a third-world environment, I might care. But you don't, so take your blessings, and let the private sector do it's work so that everyone will benefit.

Taxation is immoral anyway.

[mburbank]

Shouldn't you be in school?

Did I say vast right wing conspiracy? All I said was that the filthy rich are for the most part unaware of anyone besides the filthy rich. They don't believe any hard working person ever has a problem making ends meet in a crappy neighborhood because all they know is money. Mooks like you are so certain that filthy richness awaits them they adopt a similarly entitled world view.

I'm glad you find taxation immoral. Don't pay, and while you're at it, stop using roads and when your house catches on fire spit on it. This is America buddy. Love it or leave it. AND I don't think you do find taxation immoral, you just hate it. To find it immoral would be to imply the existance of a moral framework, which you lack.

"If you lived in a third-world environment, I might care."
No you wouldn't. You've already demonstrated that in other threads.

[The One and Only...]

No school today. Snow.

Burbank, it's not that I don't give a crap. I'm a realist, and I get tired of having the same arguments over and over and over again. I will never convince you of anything by using economic theories, so I might as well just say that it's irrelevant because it's the only thing I can get you to understand.

Don't ever lecture me on money. You have no idea what I have seen. My uncle lives in poverty, my grandparents can barely pay their bills. They are 67 years old and cannot afford to retire.

You talk about plight as if I don't know what it is. I've seen it first hand, and I was almost in it. I don't need shit from the likes of you.

[Buffalo Tom]

Don't ever lecture me on money. You have no idea what I have seen. My uncle lives in poverty, my grandparents can barely pay their bills. They are 67 years old and cannot afford to retire.


Why the hell should I care about the plight of your relatives? It sounds to me like they can't compete for the any of the opportunities for advancement that are clearly present in North American society. They're either too weak or not skilled enough to pull themselves up. Why should anyone pay for job retraining or affordable medical care for them? Your uncle, grandmother and grandfather can get a job at Walmart or MacDonalds, if they're having trouble making ends meet. They are the losers of history. I say, fuck 'em.

[Buffalo Tom]

You talk about plight as if I don't know what it is. I've seen it first hand, and I was almost in it. I don't need shit from the likes of you.

I think we all agree being unable to tie your cummerbund in time for last spring's cotillion can't be described as a plight.

[Anonymous]

My uncle lives in poverty, my grandparents can barely pay their bills. They are 67 years old and cannot afford to retire.

This whole statement is inadmissable. You don't care about Your uncle or grandparents because they're poor. Oh, I'm sorry, I mean they're rich.

[mburbank]

" I really don't care about you or any of the poor people in this country."
OAO

"it's not that I don't give a crap. "
OAO

I'm sorry, I must have missed the finely honed nuance of your argument.

"I don't need shit from the likes of you."
Actually, you do. You desperately need mounds of shit from any half way intelligent person you meet. I've rarely met anyone who needed it more and I wouldn't be giving it to you if I didn't think so. Any fifteen year who feels his grasp of economic theory bares at all on the actual existance of real people working and struggling around him and is so calcified, undeveloped and uninterested emotionally is crying out for buckets and barges and tractor trailor loads of shit. Half of the stuff you write could be replaced by a simple sentence saying "I beg you to give me as much shit as you've got time for"

"My uncle lives in poverty, my grandparents can barely pay their bills. They are 67 years old and cannot afford to retire. "

I really don't care about your Uncle or your grandparents. You know why? Hmm? Because they are rich. If they lived in a third-world environment, I might care. But they don't, so take they should take their blessings, and let the private sector do it's work so that everyone will benefit.

Oh, wait. I don't feel like that at all. I don't know your grandparents or uncle, but I don't think he should have to live in poverty and I think your grandparents should retire in decency. I don't have to know anything about them accept that they're people and our country is rich enough that they should have a human level of comfort and dignity. I think the fact that I have more compassion for people I've never met than you do for your own family is instructive. I'm happy that at least some of my immoral taxes go to safety nets instead of weapons and refinancing the national debt. I see that as being part of a decent society. I'm sure that's not Ayn Randian enough for you but giving a crap about people I don't know just because they are humans and shouldn't suffer rarely fits into economic theories.

[Vibecrewangel]

OAO - Theory is great for academia, but it doesn't always hold true in practical application. Can you at least admit that people who have real life experience may know more about how it really works than someone who has read up on theorys about how it MAY work or SHOULD work?

[kellychaos]

Sooooo basically anyone that looks out for the self-interest of their own country and doesn't wish to appease the Bush administration is some kind of degenerate subversive? Have you taken a Venezuelan fact-finding tour of which we're (the forum) is unaware?

P.S. Your mom's still waitin' for her smokes.

[The One and Only...]

You're all missing the point. My family brought it upon themselves. And THAT should NEVER be anyone else's problem, particularly when making it such in incredibly inefficient.

[mburbank]

Like I said. I have more compassion for your family than you do.

Did they commit crimes to 'bring it on themselves'? Are they in the slave trade? Did they kill anybody? Are the in some way so loathesome and repulsive that they deserve punishment? Did they lock you in a closet with a clothespin on your weiner? Or did they just make the normal human mistakes and bad choices people make?

[AChimp]

I agree with OAO. His grandparents brought it on themselves.

It's just too bad that they didn't bring it earlier and not had kids.

[The One and Only...]

Actually, my uncle didn't make any horrible financial mistakes recently. He just got a tech job, as tech is what he does, and was laid off because the company didn't need him anymore. Now he's a paperboy and pizza hut delivery guy who has to live with a roomie because he can't pay the rent alone.

[Pee Wee Herman]

How is that "bringing it on himself?"

[mburbank]

You know, that sucks, and I'm genuinely sorry for your uncle, but that's not even remotely what I'm talking about and the fact you don't know it just demonstrates how out of your depth you are. I hope the economy gets better, I hope he gets good work again and I hope things don't get worse. I'd love it if there were a saftey net for people like him if things do get worse, but as a single, healthy man, he can forget it or go to a homeless shelter or a food pantry if there's room. I think we could do a whole hell of a lot better for folks like your uncle, but there's folks around way worse off right now.

Now if he was married, his wife was also laid off and they had two kids, lived in an overpriced shitty apartment where the rent had almost doubled in the last year, had no health insurance and maxed out credit cards just buying kids clothes and food and were one bad month away from being homeless, THEN you'd be where I'm talking about. And that's where a lot of pople are right now, people who haven't done aanything worse than your uncle. I think as a society we should look out for people like that, and I think as a society we should be required to look out for people like that. Why? Because that's one of the things human beings gather into a society for. Because we know we can't count on each other individually. Left to our own devices too many of us don't care or just don't see. That's human nature. Society is what we've invented to try to protect ourselves from each other.

[The One and Only...]

How is that "bringing it on himself?"

He didn't save enough money, although the government didn't mind doing so in the name of "Social Security." Also, he didn't seriously look for a job for quite a while, which made what he did save dwindle away.

He really has the capability to be self-employed, but he can't get his shit together.

He didn't do anything that most Americans wouldn't. That's why we need to teach budgeting in schools.

But all of this is irrelevant. The point is I know what poor living conditions are like. Burbank, I've met a person like that before when I visited my uncle. But you know what? I don't feel any pity for her. All she does is drink and smoke. I'm learning that the majority of people who don't make in this world hurt themselves, and I'm sorry, but that is solely on them.

[Dole]

Has it ever occured to you that there might be a reason those on much lower incomes are more likely to drink and smoke??

". The point is I know what poor living conditions are like. Burbank, I've met a person like that before"

-wow, what an expansive experience of the human condition you have lived through. Let us all bow before your 15 yr old patronising, condescending wisdom you fucking cock.

[The One and Only...]

I've probably seen more than you, fucknut.

[Dole]

Its about time you learned some fucking humility and accepted the fact that you are not some intellectual oracle who knows exactly what it takes to live in the real fucking world and to work for a living.

Come back in 15 years when you have lived through some of the shit you are so ready to dismiss without any fucking tangible life experience beyond high school.

[The One and Only...]

Nice try, but that argument is entirely irrational. Come back when you have something to contribute.

[Dole]

Great Comeback. What intellectual Prowess. what reasoned argument. What stoic, logical beauty.

Go and do your fucking homework. Maybe you might learn something.

[The One and Only...]

So you admit that you argue from emotion? If so, then the debate is purely under my authority. You have no place in it.

My detached nature from reality ensures a higher degree of objectivity.

[mburbank]

Oh my God, you MET a poor person?!? I take it all back. That's like this one time? I went to the zoo? And there was this Elephant there? And now I'm a fully qualified expert on Elephants. I tired to tell them at the zoo that they didn't know what they were doing but they threw me out.

No, seriously, your extensive undertsanding of poverty in america is really impressive as is the indepth case study of this woman you met one time who was drinking and smoking at your Uncles house.

"I've probably seen more than you, fucknut"

See, that's what I like about you, your near solopsistic self absorbtion. Dole is a grown man about whom you know nothing. What in the world would lead you to have any inkling of how your life experiences match up? That's what underlies all your name dropping survey knowldge crap, a gut level certainty that you already know it all that would make the pope blush.

Shouldn't you be in school?

[Buffalo Tom]

I've probably seen more than you, fucknut.

Great comeback. It's going to take more than prepubescent verbal ripostes to convince me that you've seen more of life than the likes of Dole and Burbank. Playing 'Where in the world is Carmen San Diego?' on the school library's computer at lunch time does not make you world-weary. You dingbat.

[The One and Only...]

You do realize, of course, that I fundamentally reject experience as any measure by which knowledge can be gained, particularly in the economic fields?

Dole seems like he's always been a member of the middle class. I already pointed out that I've been through bankruptcy before.

I know the person that I'm talking about, and I know what she's gone through.

[Emu]

I'm not much older than OAO, and even I can see the flaws in the shit he spews. :(

[Vibecrewangel]

My detached nature from reality ensures a higher degree of objectivity.


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?


Being objective won't help you when you have to take care of yourself.

[Emu]

Buffalo Tom

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:39 pm

The One and Only... Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:40 pm

Emu Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:41 pm

:eek

[The One and Only...]

Then why don't you point them out.

[Emu]

Because Max is about a million times funnier than I'll ever be. :(

[The One and Only...]

[quote]Being objective won't help you when you have to take care of yourself.

That's why I'm going to college.

[The One and Only...]

Max is a joke. His arguments against me are amusing, and nothing more.

[Buffalo Tom]

Max is a joke. His arguments against me are amusing, and nothing more.

You are right. It is amusing to watch Burbank school you. Max presents cogent and well-reasoned arguments. You, on the other hand, reply by sticking your hand down your cerebral diaper and presenting us with the intellectual equivalent of poop, all the while squealing, 'I made poopy and wee-wee in my pants! Look! Look!'. Doofus.

[VinceZeb]

Max is a joke. His arguments against me are amusing, and nothing more.

You are right. It is amusing to watch Burbank school you. Max presents cogent and well-reasoned arguments. You, on the other hand, reply by sticking your hand down your cerebral diaper and presenting us with the intellectual equivalent of poop, all the while squealing, 'I made poopy and wee-wee in my pants! Look! Look!'. Doofus.

I guess it is OAO's big words and well-thought out ideas that resemble crap. But I wouldn't sweat Max if I were OAO. I've seen the pictures that the users post on this board and I could fill a War and Peace-sized book with the nerd, geek, and general social outcast pictures I find on here so I can only fathom what Max must look like.

Besides, most of the people on this board remind me of the losers that work at hole-in-the-wall book stores that think they are the greatest intellectual mind in the world since Noam. I can't wait for the "spell-binding humor" that will be leveled upon my internet avatar after I get done posting this.

Whatever gets you through the day without eating a 12-guage sandwich, I guess.

[mburbank]

Jealous is as jealous does, Patrice.


OAO. You have never been through bankruptcy. You are a dependant. It's easy for you to reject experience. If you actually are fifteen, you haven't had any.

"Dole Seems to have always been from the middle class"

A.) So what?
And in Homage to Vinth
Secondly; How in Gods name would you know? This is what I mean about your reasoning. It's peppered with book jacket snobbery but all that's underneath it is your smug sureness that you KNOW things because, well, uhm, you're just gosh darn sure you do! All your intellectual barking is window dressing covering the baseless assumptions of a snotty brat.

[Buffalo Tom]

Max is a joke. His arguments against me are amusing, and nothing more.

You are right. It is amusing to watch Burbank school you. Max presents cogent and well-reasoned arguments. You, on the other hand, reply by sticking your hand down your cerebral diaper and presenting us with the intellectual equivalent of poop, all the while squealing, 'I made poopy and wee-wee in my pants! Look! Look!'. Doofus.

I guess it is OAO's big words and well-thought out ideas that resemble crap. But I wouldn't sweat Max if I were OAO. I've seen the pictures that the users post on this board and I could fill a War and Peace-sized book with the nerd, geek, and general social outcast pictures I find on here so I can only fathom what Max must look like.

Besides, most of the people on this board remind me of the losers that work at hole-in-the-wall book stores that think they are the greatest intellectual mind in the world since Noam. I can't wait for the "spell-binding humor" that will be leveled upon my internet avatar after I get done posting this.

Whatever gets you through the day without eating a 12-guage sandwich, I guess.

Don't you mean someone else's big words and well-thought out ideas? There's nothing he hasn't said that I couldn't hear on 'The McClaughlin Report'. Yes, please post a reply saying I only parrot what supposed leftist-rags say. I'll admit to doing that, but, unlike your cotillion dance partner, I live in the real-world, where life is tough, and I have a job and bills to pay, so I don't have too much time to entertain know-nothing brats like Cliff.

You're gone for several weeks, and all you can come up with is, 'Yeah? Well, you guys all look like losers!'. Geez, I thought you had sequestered yourself in some far off monastery, honing your mind and body in preparation for when you go to Iraq and save Dubya's political bacon by single-handedly stablizing the situtation there. Oh, right, you're a cowardly fat-ass. I forgot that part. I guess I shouldn't be too disappointed, then. You're just playing to type.

[mburbank]

Hey now! His ass is purportedly somehwat less fat than it once was!

[The One and Only...]

You have never been through bankruptcy

So, you're saying that despite the fact that my family went through bankruptcy and lost a house because of it, I have no experience with it? Really, Burbank, I know it hurts, but think before you speak.

[mburbank]

I'm not saying you didn't have a hard time. It would be great if it had taught you something besides how to look down on people.

I'm saying you did not go through Bankruptcy. It wasn't your credit. It wasn't your money. The choices weren't yours. You owned none of the property. You had none of the responsabilities. And you have no idea at all how you'd handle similar circumstances and you don't even know yet that having a theory about how you'll do things and how you end up doing them aren't always the same.

I have no idea what your parents did and if they're selfish fools, poor suckers or perfectly good people who tried really hard to have things work out some other way. I'll tell you what I do know. All the choices and all the responsability all the way along the line were theirs, just like every bite of food that goes into your mouth and your internet connection. You go to public school? The state gave you that. Get your amazing smarts from library books? The state gave you that. You don't have a single thing that wasn't given to you by the state or your parents. Is there anything wrong with that? No. You're just a kid. But I wouldn't be so down on exprience if I were you. The day is coming when you might actually have to have some.

[The One and Only...]

I believe in protecting the country's children and providing them with equal opportunities. In my view, that does not prevent me from being libertarian. But a certain point, you need to let people make their own decisions, and learn from them.

[sspadowsky]

In my view, that does not prevent me from being libertarian. But a certain point, you need to let people make their own decisions, and learn from them.

Physician, heal thyself.

[mburbank]

"But a certain point, you need to let people make their own decisions, and learn from them."

Lovely. So what point is "A certain point"? I'm thinking you mean right after you provide them with 'Equal Opportunities', by which you mean pretty much whatever situation they get born into. I'm guessing your transcript beats the fuck out of W's but he was a shoe in to Yale and you are on your own, plus, you'll go into debt to go to college and W has no idea what a debt is since everyone he ever racked up got pid by friends and family.

But the free market provides for all and makes everything right in the end. It just provides a lot more and makes things much righter much sooner for you if you have the right daddy. Oh, and some other people it eats up and spits out but that's their look out and they aren't me so I don't care and at a certain point you need to watch them get eaten and not try to do anything about it and learn from them.

[The One and Only...]

Physician, heal thyself.

Clever on multiple levels. Let's turn to our judges. I give it a 9.

Burb, I think that education should be free. I thought I pointed this out to you. I feel that we can make education, including higher education for those who work for it, free without increasing spending on education. How? Negative income taxes, as well as vouchers, and funding of high-scoring college students. Given the efficiency of the private sector, we might be able to fund all who plan on going to college, or provide a tax cut.

[mburbank]

I'll give you a 9 for being glib.

[The One and Only...]

Glib? Does that mean I would make a good politician?

[mburbank]

It just means you're glib.

[Emu]

Vinth crawls out of his hole for ten minutes to call us all funny looking. It has indeed been a life-changing experience.

[kellychaos]

You do realize, of course, that I fundamentally reject experience as any measure by which knowledge can be gained, particularly in the economic fields?


When you don't read the fine print and get knocked on your ass and are down a few economic pegs from the nest from which your parents have pushed you, then talk to me about what experience CAN'T teach you.


Dole seems like he's always been a member of the middle class. I already pointed out that I've been through bankruptcy before.

You haven't been a member of ANY socio-economic class because you've yet to make a living for yourself yet.

[Anonymous]

You do realize, of course, that I fundamentally reject experience as any measure by which knowledge can be gained, particularly in the economic fields?

Hmm...

So, you're saying that despite the fact that my family went through bankruptcy and lost a house because of it, I have no experience with it?

You get a 10 for painting yourself into a corner, One.

[The One and Only...]

I didn't say that my experience made my points any more valid. I just said that I had experience, which Burbank seemed to deny. Taking words out of context is one of your annoying traits.

[Perndog]

Not quite right on that one, Max. You don't have to go into debt for college if you've got book smarts, can express yourself well, and are either a) very moral or b) a good faker. For those who can muster the grades and the personality, it's not a matter of social privilege.

[Anonymous]

I didn't say that my experience made my points any more valid. I just said that I had experience, which Burbank seemed to deny. Taking words out of context is one of your annoying traits.

You're right, your experience doesn't make your points more valid. Unfortunately, you saying that you don't value experience makes that particular argument with burbank a moot point. Why you waste time arguing moot points with Max is beyond me. Why would you even bother to bring up your parent's bankruptcy when your experiencing it means nothing to you, by your own reasoning? I guess when there's a snow day, it's only natural that a child would want to waste time.

[Brandon]

HI VINCE!

So when are you going to post a picture of your gorgeous, muscular (and certainly not morbidly obese and monstrously ugly) self? And if you do, would you please pick one where you've got your arm around a hot ethnic chick? And would you please autograph it "Catholic Samurai"? And on the subject of Catholic Samurai, I don't think there's anything ridiculous at all about a devout Catholic who thinks charity and good works are irrelevant.

And as for you, OAO: I think it's time for you to leave. Everybody despises you and they clearly see through your narcissistic, intellectual posturing. There's nothing "special" or "unique" about you, and in fact, you're rather pathetic. You've turned to economic theory and abstract philosophy in order to make yourself feel superior to other people your age. You intellectualize everything in the hopes that you'll be able to alleviate the loneliness and chronic alienation you almost certainly feel every day. You attempt to use this forum as a flattering mirror, hoping that it will reflect back your phony image of uniqueness and omnipotence.

But you're not impressing anyone. Not one of us.

Get a life, kid. You're making me sick.

EDIT: To everyone else, I know it may be tempting to fight with the fat little fucker, but there's a sure-fire way to get rid of him:

Ignore him. Don't comment on anything he says. Pretend he never posted at all. He needs attention to live--if you cut it off, he'll shrivel up and die in about a day.

[Perndog]

"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake." :)

[Pee Wee Herman]

OAO is unique, just like everyone else.

[Dole]

OAO: Yup, I am absolutely as Middle Class as they come. But guess what? My family isn't rich and I work 3 jobs to survive. And for most normal human beings, working hard for a living makes you realise how much tougher it is for a lot of people who work as hard, or harder than you for a lot less money and a lot shittier conditions, who live in shittier housing etc.
You, like Vinth seem to be able to completely bypass that portion of the brain that allows you to feel any sympathy or particularly empathy for those around you who dont have the same opportunities that you take for granted, despite the fact as you have stated your family has been through hardship themselves.
In my humble opinion that means that right now you just aren't a very nice person, and you have a mild sociopathic tendency.
Unlike Vinth however, you are young enough to not necessarily turn into such a brainwashed, callous waste of space for the rest of your life.

[The One and Only...]

I didn't say that my experience made my points any more valid. I just said that I had experience, which Burbank seemed to deny. Taking words out of context is one of your annoying traits.

You're right, your experience doesn't make your points more valid. Unfortunately, you saying that you don't value experience makes that particular argument with burbank a moot point. Why you waste time arguing moot points with Max is beyond me. Why would you even bother to bring up your parent's bankruptcy when your experiencing it means nothing to you, by your own reasoning? I guess when there's a snow day, it's only natural that a child would want to waste time.

Burbank acknowledges experience, so I had to cede my own beliefs for the purpose of getting anywhere in the argument.

At least I'm not an existentialist, Brandon. At least I'm not an existentialist.

[Brandon]

At least I'm not an existentialist, Brandon. At least I'm not an existentialist.
At least I'm not a weiner. At least I'm not a weiner.

[Helm]

Quick! Someone post a fancy wordplay using a combination of 'ad hominem' and 'homosexual'. Be sure to use some french too.

[Perndog]

Helm's an 'ad homo'. Hah! I snuck in with the surprise victory! What a coup!

[Helm]

Would you like to 'trust your rod' inside my 'enochian orfice', then?

[Perndog]

I'd really rather not. Beelzebub gets jealous, you know.

[Helm]

Not even a small 'Crowlean threesome' with Proto and me?

[Perndog]

I don't know if Proto's into the whole group scene. And I don't have the right ritual supplies for a Crowleyan threesome...my mom wouldn't buy me that crucifix dildo I wanted for Christmas..I mean Winter Solstice.

[Helm]

Blast! I guess we'll just have to do with playing D&D in your basement, if your mom lets us hang out 'till late. I am 300 xp from making Grand Magus! I'll bring my Graveland CD!

[Perndog]

I don't think I can make it to my parents' house anytime soon, though, I have a big orgy I need to go to this weekend to score some brownie points with my grotto master. I'm trying to gain another rank so I can have sex with bigger and more exciting men...I mean, demons.

[AChimp]

Dude! I saved up my allowance long enough to buy the Book of Erotic Fantasy, but I have to hide it from my mom! ;) ;) :(

[Protoclown]

D&D satanic sex orgy?? Dude I am SO there!!