Pope Calls for All Catholics to Fast on March 5 Against War

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Too bad Catholics aren't "real" Christians such as yourself, right Ronnie?? :(

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAEE8M4JCD.html

Pope Calls for All Catholics to Fast on March 5 Against War in Iraq

By Frances D'emilio Associated Press Writer
Published: Feb 23, 2003

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope John Paul II called on Catholics to fast on Ash Wednesday in the name of peace and said again on Sunday he worried a U.S.-led war against Iraq could unsettle the entire Middle East.
Looking wan and tired, John Paul opened his traditional Sunday remarks from his studio window overlooking St. Peter's Square by denouncing war as a way to resolve the conflict.

"We Christians in particular are called upon to be sentinels of peace," John Paul said, calling on Catholics to dedicate their fasting on Ash Wednesday, March 5, for the cause of peace.

On that day, the pope said, faithful will pray for "the conversion of hearts and the long-range vision of just decisions to resolve disputes with adequate and peaceful means."

He said that the fast, which Catholics traditionally conduct at the start of Lent to prepare themselves for Easter, is an "expression of penitence for the hate and violence which pollute human relations."

Fasting, an ancient practice shared by other religions, he said, also lets faithful "shed themselves of all arrogance."

Rainbow-hued peace banners fluttered in the crowd of tourists and pilgrims in the square. Surveys have shown Italians and many other Europeans oppose war, even if waged under the aegis of the United Nations, and earlier this month, about 1 million Italians marched through Rome to protest against the United States and its push for using military force.

"For months the international community is living in great apprehension for the danger of a war, which could unsettle the entire Middle East region and aggravate the tensions unfortunately already present in this beginning of the third millennium," the pontiff said.

"It is the duty of all believers, to whichever religion they belong, to proclaim that we can never be happy pitted one against the other; the future of humanity will never able to be secured by terrorism and by the logic of war," John Paul said.

While the pope has been hailed as a champion of peace by anti-war demonstrators ranging from environmentalists to communists, some in Italy challenged his view.

Radical Party leaders Sunday denounced what they saw as the pontiff's "equating terrorism and war, whatever war." Led by Marco Panella, the Radicals say they would like to see Saddam Hussein in exile and a democratic government under U.N. auspices to replace the Iraqi leader.

John Paul has been holding practically daily meetings with key players in the crisis over Iraq. In his latest effort, on Saturday, he met with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has been trying to line up support in Europe and elsewhere for Washington's insistence that military force is necessary if Baghdad doesn't quickly and completely comply with U.N. disarmament resolutions.

John Paul, 82 and struggling with Parkinson's disease and other health problems, appeared weary, his voice trailing off in the final words of his appeal, "blessed are the peacemakers," a phrase from the Gospel of Matthew.

John Paul made similar calls against conflict in the months before the 1991 Gulf War, but in this campaign, with the memory of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks making the world particularly apprehensive, he has seemed more determined than ever to do his part to persuade decision-makers against going to war.

AP-ES-02-23-03 0955EST
-30-

[ItalianStereotype]

i dont know what to do :/

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I anticipate Ronnie's response to have something to do with the tolerance of priests who molest children, thus avoiding the issue completely (in typical Raygun fashion).

Sorry, Italian. :/

[Miss Modular]

Too bad Catholics aren't "real" Christians such as yourself, right Ronnie?? :(

You know, when I first saw this thread, my first thought was to reply to this sarcastically saying that "This wouldn't apply to Ronnie." :rolleyes

[mburbank]

Naldo; I know you're not a papist yourself; but seriously, what is your stand on the Catholic Church? Are the Christians or not? And if not, does the practice of their doctrine lead to Hell?

What in Catholic Doctrine do you object to? Is it the Idolatry of Papism itself (granted, a dilema, but they do trace their line directly to Peter whom Jesus himself appointed leader) or does the problem lie in the literal belief in the miracle of transubstantiation?

[El Blanco]

There is no official Idolatry of the Pope. People do this, but it is because of a misunderstanding.

And yes, Catholics are Christians. Where did all the Protestant sects come from?

[mburbank]

I would certainly agree Catholics are Christians. I think the whole subject of what makes Christian a Christian should be raised here.

I would posit the following.

1.) You must believe in Jesus's Divinity, ie. he's Christ and not just a rabbi or prophet.

2.) You must believe in Christ's intercession, ie. He died for the sin of mankind and the faithful are washed of sin in the blood of the lamb.

3.) His role in the trinity is debatable, and your position on this says a lot about what sect of Christianity you may practice. There is much heated dicussion on this, as there is in general literal vs. metaphorical readings of the bible with various sides accusing the other of being 'not real Christians', but scholrs would be hard pressed to put much credence in the arguments on this subject.

[El Blanco]

I need to derail something before it gets started real quick. There was a man from Galillee whose name translates into Jesus born to an unwed woman whose name translates into Mary. So, no one needs to be a wise ass and refer to Him as a mythical figure. There is documented evidence He existed and was crucified. The argument is mainly for people who believe in Him.

I don't want to be a dick and I certainly don't want to exclude atheists who may actually have something to add to the conversation, I just get pissed when some asshole drops into the discussion and does the whole "God doesn't exist and I'm smarter than you" crap. Thats another discussion.

[Baalzamon]

Sure he existed and was crucified, but lots of people existed and where crucified, that doesnt make them divine.

[El Blanco]

But the whole discussion is about those who believe He is devine. I am just hoping a bunch of asshole atheists (as in assholes who claim they are atheists) to come in and say "you are all dumb cuz he wasn't divine" or anything like that.

Anyway, Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity, one god, three manifestations/personalities/if there is a better word someone help me out. We believe they all existed and are all infinite.

The hardest part of this whole argument is the fact that the Bible is written in so many languages and has been handed down so many times, it is very open to interpretation.

[mburbank]

My question is not so much what seperates various sects of Christianity as what they agree on. What are the defining elemts of Christianity.

I'm spurred to ask the question because of Naldo's use of the phrase 'real Christian' and his assertation that he can say who is a Christian and who is not, regardless of how they define themselves.

That's what I'm looking to see folks weigh in on.

For instance, as a catholic, do you feel that folks who don't accept the idea of the Trinity (Father, son and holly spirit, with all having separate aspects but a single identity) but do accept Jesus as Christ (the messiah and divine in nature) are Christians. Is a dissavowal of the trinity enough to send you to hell if you still accept Jesus as saviour, lord, and son of God.

[El Blanco]

The Nicene Creed is a basic outline for Catholic beliefs.

The Nicene Creed


We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[ItalianStereotype]

so are you going to fast blanco?

[El Blanco]

OK here is the thing. I greatly respect the Pope. The things he has gone through and accomplished have really helped the Church to get to the people who need the most help. He was part of the underground Polish resistance against the Nazis in WW2, so I am really suprised that he doesn't do something to help stand up to the tyranny.

About Papal infanlability: it only refers to topics of faith and morality. When it comes to politics, economics, etc, we know he can easily be wrong. He can offer wisdom, insight, consel and all that other good stuff, but it isn't infallable.

[mburbank]

In addition, this Pope (in one of his best acts, in my opinion) declared tht he does not speak ex cathedra (infallibly) at all. He does not reject the doctrine, merely rules it out of his Papacy. So the admonition to fast is a call and not an order.

Blanco, would you concider all the lements of the creed as litmus tests for 'true Christians'? For instance, can someone agree with everything in the creed except the neccesity(for salvation) of Baptism?

I am not a Christian myself, but admire the moral teachings of Jesus greatly. My interpretation of the New Testament is that while there are many admonitions, suggestions and lessons, there are also widely ranging standards for being a "Christian". So I return to the gospels whos narrative predates formal Christianity and come away with opinion that beyond Jesus being the Son of God and opening the door to heaven via his sacrafice, only God would be in a position to know who was a 'true' Christian and who was not.

I bring all this up because I find the tendency of organized religions (and Christianity is not alone in this) to splinter over and over, focusing more and more attention on who is or is not truly one of God's flock, puzzling and disturbing.

[El Blanco]

I have always thought it to be really arrogant for one human being to tell another "you are going to hell." Especially over dogma. I know one guy who is a Seven Day Advantist and he tells me I am going to hell because I go to Church on Sunday instead of Saturday. And that I don't just stay home and avoid work on the Sabbath (althought, I make up for it on Fridays).

For the first accusation, I ask him, "Who makes God's watch?"


"And why does he care if I go Saturday or Sunday as ong as I go and I follow His laws?"

I was taught that there are two major commandments. Love God. Love each other. Think about what you do and if it violates either of those. If you manage to keep both commandments, you are doing OK. Everything else stems from there.


About Baptism, Jesus was baptised in the Jordan river. When the Apostles lef the room to preach the Gospel on Pentacost, they started baptising people. So, this is where we get that sacrament.

Also, Papal Infallability has only been used twice. And the first time was to introduce the idea of Papal Infallability. Kinda funny if you ask me.

[mburbank]

Thanks. The two commandment test is actually quite helpful. Any protestants care to chime in?

Naldo, you've been strangely absent, but let me throw the question little wider.

Are there any self professed Christians here who feel that certain sects are not 'real christians' and their adherents are damned?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

About Papal infanlability: it only refers to topics of faith and morality. When it comes to politics, economics, etc, we know he can easily be wrong. He can offer wisdom, insight, consel and all that other good stuff, but it isn't infallable.

So in other words, Christianity has nothing to do with peace and the maintenance of it??? Christ mentioned nothing of violence and how one should react to it??? :confused

[El Blanco]

Of course He did. Obviously, the Pope is going to encourage peace. However, we have many ideas how peace is achieved.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Right, but if you really are a devout Catholic, I think you would value the opinion of the Pope at LEAST as much as the opinion of President Bush.

I'll be fasting on Wednesday.

[glowbelly]

me too and i'm not catholic or christian (i don't know what the heck i am), i just don't want anymore people to die needlessly in a war that really doesn't need to be fought, and if this is one way to help well then, ok, i'm in.

[El Blanco]

The thing is, I see this war as needed. If done properly, we can avoid a bigger conflict.

I do value the Pope's opinion. I just happen to disagree.

[ItalianStereotype]

GAAAAHHH! I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO :melt :explode

[mburbank]

I think war is immoral no matter what. Worse, I think it is impracticable. If we spent a fifth of the energy and money on working toward sytems of lasting peace, systems bring a rule of law to a world scale, we might get somewhere.

It's ike I tell my kids. Use your words.

[El Blanco]

What do you tell your kids when they get punched in the mouth?

And I don't believe in abstract morality.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

What do you tell your kids when they get punched in the mouth?

W.W.J.D. ???????

[El Blanco]

You run out of cheeks eventually. And he moves on to the next victim.

OK I'm not the best Catholic. I'm what I like to call a practicing Catholic. I'm not that good at it so I need to keep practicing.

[mburbank]

Luckily so far my kids hve not gotten punched in the mouth. I however took fair share of punches, and I'll tell you what my folks told me.

Make sure the school knows. Make sure my parents know. There are systems in place that work to deal with violence. They often don't work well, but they are better than violence.

Actually, my Dad told me to bite my attacker until I tasted blood. I didn't do it, though.

I'm not a complete pacifist. I believe there are times when force is the only thing left. BUT. These times are very, very, very rare, and they always represent multiple failures along the way, multiple lost opportunities. The use of force is always tragic, should never be celebrated and massive effort should be expended during times of peace to ensure force becomes more and more obsolete. War is hopeless, damaging and corrupting the soul of the victor quitely but viciously as it physically damages the enemy and sowing seeds of future war as it goes.

Pacafism is hard, and has costs. There i suffering involved. It takes courage. Jesus did not say 'Turn the other cheek unless your opeonent left a mark the first time, in which case trip him, get on his chest and beat the shit out of him.' He didn't even say 'hit your opponent back exactly as hard as he hit you'. That eye for an eye shit is the code of the Hamurabi, and Jesus was trying to get rid of it. It should be noted, the code of the Hamurabi was quite liberal for it's time, trying to replace the reigning doctrine of a life for an eye, and the lives of their family as well. Sadly, this is what our current doctrine of massive retaliation with overwhelming force will take us back to.

We are the strongest nation on earth. If we cannot absorb the suffering required by turning the other cheek, who will?

[Ronnie Raygun]

Yes, like the Pope and his molesting priests have any credibility.

Face it, the church needs new leadership.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

:lol

Raygun never lets me down. :)

[ItalianStereotype]

ach-HEM

FUCK YOU RONNIE >:

[Ronnie Raygun]

FUCK ME?

Italian, does the church leadership have any credibility after supporting child molesting preists? Do you not agree that something is wrong here?

[ItalianStereotype]

there is indeed something wrong, but i wont drag the pope down to the same level as the preists and i will never think that he should be replaced. it just seems anathema to me.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

If the Roman Catholic Church, like the Southern Baptist Church, came out in support of this war, Ronnie would over look the Church's internal problems, I'm sure.

I knew this thread would break the conservative flank on these boards. :)

[ItalianStereotype]

dont be so sure kevin. on almost any issue conservatives will stand together, but we are all different sects and religions. there is even room for conflict among the liberals....

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Well, not to create a huge tangent, but 2 points:

1. This war doesn't even measure up to REAL conservative ideals.

2. Catholics are generally more Liberal.

[ItalianStereotype]

this war is kind of in a grey area, but is still dividing on partisan lines....

im a southern catholic, what you are thinking of are catholics from the northeast.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

im a southern catholic, what you are thinking of are catholics from the northeast.

Which is the strong hold for Catholocism in America.

[mburbank]

It seems very telling to me that with all the extremely serious questions of faith raised in this thread, Naldo chooses to zero in on the heirarchy of the catholic church. Not the slvation or lack there of of Catholic Souls, not the defining qualities of Christianity, not who is judge and who judged for all eternity, just the earthly credability of the current leadership.

Now this is where Nald chimes in "Well YOU must SUPPORT child molestation"

Or maybe if he's not all agitated

"So you don't think there support of Child Molestation makes their credability questionable?"

So. Let me say plainly, if you want to start a thread on what the crisis within the Catholic Church means to it's Members, do so. I'll give my two cents. As large as that issue is right now, the questions raised here what beliefs merited salvation in the Christian Tradition.

Unless of course you read only the very begining of this conversation, about fasting and all. If so, you must of missed where a number of non catholics said they intended to fast. There is wwhole lot more happening n every level of this thread than a question of this popes Credability level at this moment. Or did you think Catholics were slaves?

[El Blanco]

Hey, Ronnie, aren't you backing up the party that gave us North and Poindexter? Want to talk credibility?

Did you know that there is a large class action suit against the Southern Baptists on behalf of the generations of children who were molested? You want ugly details from the NYC public school system? Ever heard of Silent Lambs?

The church was wrong in hiding them and moving them to where they could get to other children. But its not the Church that attracts the sickos, its the ability to be an autority figure to children.

[mburbank]

Ronnie likes to do his tarring with the largest brush possible.

[AChimp]

your all dumb cuz he wasn't divine. >:

[slavemason]

The main problem I have with Christianity is the evangelism. You wouldn't have as many conflicts if you didn't have these dogmatic plate passers condemning damn near everyone. I'm agnostic by the way.

[El Blanco]

That isn't all of them. And you can't blame them for being loud about their message. It is part of the job description.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

They likewise would view themselves as being selfish if they weren't to share the "good news" with everyone else....

[slavemason]

I know the bad apple bit but you need to take care of your own mess before you go telling other people how to clean up there's. How can Christians stand by while assholes like the God Hates Fags people are picketing funerals and telling folks their kid is in hell if their faggot son didn' t accept Jesus as his lord and savior in his dieing breaths?

[El Blanco]

What would you have us do? Lynch the idiots?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Blanco is right. They have every right to be morons, just like others have the right to slander the Church in absurd ways.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Falwell has spoken against that website on Fox News. I know you probably don't like him but he has spoken out against it.

[slavemason]

You're right, I don't like him but I will appreciate any effort to shut those people up. I also agree that they have the right to be morons, I'm just glad I don't have anything in common with their public views.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Those people make me absolutly sick. ....... .They make me have visions of slamming their head in a car door until theirs nothing left but a bloody stump.

........Then I regain my senses.

[mburbank]

If a homosexual accepts Jesus Christ as his savior and follows the lords will in every way, but has a lifelong same sex relationships and doesn't think it was wrong, does he go to heaven or hell when he dies?

[slavemason]

The answer to the reoccurring question of salvation is always going to depend on who you ask. Unfortunately the majority of Christians that I've spoken with, get most of their doctrine from the preacher instead of any scripture. And the preachers tell them that homosexuality is an abomination. A homosexual would only go to heaven if they lived a lie for the remainder of their life, and of course accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
Of course, I live in the Bible Belt and we aren't know for our cultural diversity.
I find myself interested in the Immaculate Conception. Got any thoughts on that or should I start a new thread? I swear I'm not trying to introduce smut. I've heard interesting theories involving the ear.

Multiple edits due to my terrible proofreading abilities.

[El Blanco]

According to the Scripture, homsexuality is a sin. However, the way I was raised (Irish Catholic parents and 12 years of Cqatholic school), I picked up that hate mongering, bigotry and murder are far worse sins. Those are far more destructive to the community.

Do some people honestly expect me to believe that Jim Jones has a better shot at heaven than a morally good person who happens to stick their genitals in the wrong place on another consentual adult?

[Mockery]

This is Doopa on Mock's account

According to the Scripture, homsexuality is a sin.

the scripture also says people should own slaves
actually the "scripture" says a lot of shit.

[El Blanco]

Never does it say that people should own slaves. There are references to figures having servants, but thats it.

The one thing that people like to harp on is St Paul,s line about slaves staying with their masters. That wasn't a condoning of slavery. It was to illustrate how people shouldn't be worrying about their earthly bonds and focus on their souls.

[Miss Modular]

I really don't think the current situation in the Catholic Church has much to do with Homosexuals so much as it does with the vow of celibacy priests have to take upon ordination. My godmother's uncle was a priest, but he ended up leaving the preisthood because he wanted the company of a woman. It was either that, or become an alcoholic. I've known a few other priests who have left the priesthood for the very same reason.

[AChimp]

The Scripture tells us that we have to sacrifice animals and who to stone to death on what grounds. There's also an awful lot in there about various kinds of sores.

[El Blanco]

AChimp: Christ put an end to all that.

Mod: My uncle was a priest for over 60 years. He had temptations and cravings, but he focused that energy on serving God and helping the community. I had a friend who wrote a thesis on the reasons for the recent troubles in the cloth.

And, in Africa, Catholic priests are allowed to marry. The Church just keeps it quiet.

[Miss Modular]

Mod: My uncle was a priest for over 60 years. He had temptations and cravings, but he focused that energy on serving God and helping the community. I had a friend who wrote a thesis on the reasons for the recent troubles in the cloth.

And, in Africa, Catholic priests are allowed to marry. The Church just keeps it quiet.

Oh, don't get me wrong. There are plenty of Priests who are able to take a vow of celibacy and keep it. That's awfully tough thing to do, and I commend them for it. But I wish they'd allow marriage, even if the guidelines were extremely strict. I think it would keep more Priests from leaving the Priesthood...or worse.

[Anonymous]

Never does it say that people should own slaves. There are references to figures having servants, but thats it.

Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.


Leviticus 25
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying,

44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

[ItalianStereotype]

the scriptures are influenced by the hand that writes them. just because it provides for slavery in an age where slavery was a real part of life doesnt mean the overall message should be discarded.

[Anonymous]

the scriptures are influenced by the hand that writes them.

ok first of all, that is your interpretation. There are many Christian who believe in the infallibility of the bible - that it is Gods word. As a matter of fact I think raygun is one of them so let him come in here and tell you how not christian you are


just because it provides for slavery in an age where slavery was a real part of life doesnt mean the overall message should be discarded.
that is the dumbest excuse ever.

[ItalianStereotype]

i wasnt making any excuses. its just like a line-item veto, if you dont like one part, discard it and follow the rest as best you can.....within reason of course.

[mburbank]

I totally agree the bible is a historical document and needs to be read for it's overall moral messages and should always be read in it's historical context.

But there are a LOT of folks, manyof them currently holding office, who don't view the bible in reletaistic terms.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree the bible is a historical document and needs to be read for it's overall moral messages and should always be read in it's historical context.

My problem with it is that I don't really see there are consistant overall moral messages - at least not until mr. j shows up. I am one of those people that totally sees old and new testament as totally different and not belonging together at all.
Old God isn't about love or living your lives in peace and understanding you are not better than anyone else, and knowing that rituals will not "save you". And then Jesus came along and screwed it all up.
So yeah, my problem is that people tend to pick and choose whatever the hell they want (specifically old testament stuff) to use to back up their own idea of bad and good. Like the homosexuality thing...

and then say This is the word of God.

[Anonymous]

the scriptures are influenced by the hand that writes them. just because it provides for slavery in an age where slavery was a real part of life doesnt mean the overall message should be discarded.

But that part about killing gays was dead-on, right?

How about eternal damnation? Was the lord just making up that crap for the 'people of the time?'

If you're going to sing and dance for your silent superhero in the sky, you might as well pay attention to him.

[El Blanco]

What parts do you follow? I was taught the stuff that consistently follows the two major commandments.

Homosexuality is a sin, but stoning them is worse.

Yes, there is eternal damnation. If you don't want to exist with God, then He will grant you your wish.

[Anonymous]

I want a toyota matrix.

God needs to grant that wish first.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"If a homosexual accepts Jesus Christ as his savior and follows the lords will in every way, but has a lifelong same sex relationships and doesn't think it was wrong, does he go to heaven or hell when he dies?"

If a person is homosexual he will not be follwing the lords will in every way......just like every other Christain. However, the person will realize what homosexuality is and condemn it and ask Christ to help defeat it....just like every other sin.

[Anonymous]

omfg

Heaven or hell, Rolando?

[mburbank]

According to Naldo, if a Homosexual does not "condemn it (his homosexuality)and ask Christ to help defeat it", he has not actually accepted Crhist as his savior, no matter what else he does. If you have not accepted Christ as your savior, you are going to hell.

Ergo, if Mother Theresa is a Lesbian and doesn't ask jesus to help her stop it, her selfless lifelong work with Lepers will not keep her from burning in eternal Hellfire.

I think that's kind of sweet. Now, if you KNOW what you're doing is WRONG and you ASK for God's help, but you still keep doing it but you're ORRY, maybe you go to heaven. But should you die believeing that maybe Jesus didn't care who you had sex as long as you did well by others and accepted his divinity and sacrafice, well, hellfire for you.

Naldo, I assume believes, that if you TRULY accepted Jesus, you would know that he DOES care what you do with your sex parts VERY MUCH and He'd help you stop. If you don't KNOW this, then no matter what you might think, Jesus has NOT entered your heart nd told made you know his STRONG feelings about the SINFUL application oif your sex bits.

Naldo will not put it in bald terms, even though he has said all you need to do is ask him a direct question.

so, lets test this.

Q; WILL ALL UNREPENTANT HOMOSEXUALS GO TO HELL FOR ETERNITY NO MATTER WHT ELSE THEY DO IN EVERY NON-SEXUAL ASPECT OF THEIR LIVES?

That is a simple yes or no question.

[Ronnie Raygun]

YES.

Because you can't get to heaven by works alone. You need Christ.

[Anonymous]

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God is such a jerk :(

[kellychaos]

As much as I realize that you'll never keep religion from being involved in a person's beliefs, I thought that part of the reason our American ancestors came here was the belief that church would be separated from state therefore ensuring that they would not be persecture for their religion nor would the church manipulate the government as it had done in europe during the middle ages.

[Protoclown]

Jesus never said ONE WORD about homosexuality in the bible. NOT ONE RECORDED WORD. Gee, guess sexual orientation must not have been important to him at all, huh?

[Anonymous]

Yeah, but you should have heard him mutter about it all day :(

[kellychaos]

Jesus never wrote ANY of the Bible neither. Could be that some of the prophets were just homo hatin' zealots. Just sayin' :/

[Ronnie Raygun]

Chojin, why do you choose to be one of those cast into the fire?

[Protoclown]

Ronnie, why do you choose to walk around with your eyes closed?

[mburbank]

Naldo:

A.) Do you have any problem with that Jack Chick comic in any way, or would you say it is an accurate and fair depiction of "Real Christianity"

B.) What leads you to believe that Jesus cared about homosexuality?

[Ronnie Raygun]

I would say that it was pretty accurate.

And Christ cannot contradict the father, and the old testament speaks against it as you well know.

[kellychaos]

A lot of this, I guess, hinges on whether you feel that homosesexuality is a choice (nurture) or the way you were born (nature). Psychiatrists STILL aregue this point nowadays. If you accept that homosexuality is the way you were born, then you have to question the fact of why God made you that way. Why would a perfect being make you that way if, in HIS eyes, that is wrong behavior ... or imperfect, so to speak. Is it some kind of screwy test?! >:

[Ronnie Raygun]

Do you believe you are born an alcoholic? Or maybe it just runs in the faimily.......maybe genetic? Well, if so .... it doesn't mean Christ is going to want you to waste your life being a drunk.

[kellychaos]

Theirs a big difference there. In drinking, you involve others into your habit and possible harming them ... drinking away the family money ... drinking and driving ... domestic violence, ect. In following your sexual orientation, who are you harming? You're shaming your family :rolleyes Big deal! There would be no shame without the stigma that WE, as a society, have attached to the matter. WE have MADE that abnormal behavior, not the Bible. Their families should love them anyway.

[Ronnie Raygun]

You're not harming anyone else if you're just sitting in you apt. by yourself.

That's like me saying that just because your gay it means your responsible for spreading aids. That's ignorant.

It's the same concept.

[mburbank]

Is the old testament all the word of God or just the parts in quotes?

If it's all God, then Lot offering his daughters to a crowd that wanted to raoe them was good. If it's just "The Law", I hope you never found Mildew in your house, because if you did you were supposed to take it apart stone by stone.

And if some woman ever consents to be your wife, will you send her away during Menstruation?

Do you keep Kosher? Where did Jesus amend that set of rules? Etc. Etc. Etc.

[El Blanco]

And if some woman ever consents to be your wife, will you send her away during Menstruation?


Must....resist....stupid....sexist.....joke

[kellychaos]

You're not harming anyone else if you're just sitting in you apt. by yourself.

That's like me saying that just because your gay it means your responsible for spreading aids. That's ignorant.

It's the same concept.

So what ARE you trying to say? That those sitting in their appartments are spared YOUR blame because they're putting their wanker away and sitting in their apparment like a good little homosexuals? Do you realize that over half the new cases of HIV infection in Africa are due to medical personnel being undersupplied and using syringes that have been used one or more times among other things that make their environment unsterile. I'm not faulting them. That's just the reality they have to deal with until they're better funded. You do ALSO realize that their are yet other ways to contract the disease? Jeesh! Read something other than the "Daily Fascist Skinhead" once in a while.

[mburbank]

I just thought of something! The Pope is really old and hard to understand! I bet he urged Catholics to "Go to war fast" on March 5!

[ItalianStereotype]

i STILL dont know what the fuck to do tomorrow :/

maybe i will go harass some arab americans about their heritage...

[FS]

:lol

[mburbank]

Eye Tie, the biggest difference between you and Naldo is that you can be funny.

That anbd your slavish, robot like devotion to the so called 'Pope'.

[ItalianStereotype]

it would be better if he would wear his "america super cool number 1" miter every once in a while :/

[mburbank]

See, now, that's twice in a row you made me laugh.

[ItalianStereotype]

all good things must come to an end, for now i must be off to class :(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/030304/1/38j5b.html

Wednesday March 5, 3:03 AM
Pope steps up anti-war crusade with call for Christians to fast

Pope John Paul II stepped up his crusade against a looming war in Iraq, urging the world's Christians to stage a fast for peace on the same day as his envoy is to meet US President George W. Bush.

The pope said the day of fasting on Wednesday would remind people of the long years of suffering endured by Iraqi citizens as a result of the international embargo against the country.

The fast will coincide with a meeting Wednesday between Bush and the pope's special envoy, Cardinal Pio Laghi, who the pope has entrusted with a special plea to restrain the US leader from waging war against Iraq.

The fast is the latest in a series of efforts to avert a war by the pope, who has emerged as one of the most prominent opponents against a US-led conflict with Iraq.

In recent weeks, he has received leaders ranging from Iraq Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz to British Prime Minister Tony Blair, the US' key ally on Iraq, and Tuesday held talks with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

The pontiff said the day of fasting Wednesday should "provide greater understanding of the difficulties and sufferings or our brothers confronted by hunger, misery and war."

The appeal has also been passed on by World Council of Churches in Geneva and the Synod of the Church of England.

An informal opinion poll carried out on a private Italian television channel also found that 55.7 percent of viewers said they were willing to follow the appeal to fast.

Laghi's meeting with Bush Wednesday comes amid insistences from Washington that the pope's anti-war pronouncements will not be able to sway the United States from its hardline stance on Iraq.

Jim Nicholson, US envoy to the Holy See, on Tuesday confirmed that the pope's appeal through Laghi would not influence American thinking.

"Cardinal Laghi's mission may be useful, but Iraq must disarm," he said on the private Italian television channel "La 7."

"If Saddam Hussein were to leave his country, that would be a perfect solution," Nicholson added.

Meanwhile, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, a firm supporter of the US stance on Iraq, became the latest of the world's leaders Tuesday to hold talks on the crisis with the pope.

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said that the meeting "allowed an exchange of views on the current international situation, with special emphasis on the crisis in Iraq."

The pope had already held talks Thursday with Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, another key supporter of the US position on Iraq and holder of a crucial seat on the UN Security Council.

Officials at the Vatican have said the 82 year-old-pope has thrown all his energy into efforts to stop the war, despite the crippling effects of his Parkinson's disease.

"He has been more alert in the last few days, as though he wanted to give us more strength," Laghi said.

The pope has adopted a vocal stance of principled opposition against a military conflict with Iraq, saying the future of humanity can never be ensured by the logic of war.

"Marred by long-standing and seemingly relentless conflicts, the world stands on the brink of yet another war," the pope wrote last month in a pessimistic message to newly-enthroned Anglican leader Rowan Williams.

Separately, the Vatican Tuesday denied that the pope had planned to make a personal address to the United Nations Security Council if his envoy failed to deter Bush from going to war.

"There are no plans for the Holy Father to visit the United Nations," a spokesman told journalists.
-30-

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The pope said the day of fasting on Wednesday would remind people of the long years of suffering endured by Iraqi citizens as a result of the international embargo against the country.

This Pope rocks.

And tell me this isn't a badass pic for an avatar:

http://sg.yimg.com/xp/afp/20030305/1141752581.jpg

[El Blanco]

I don't know how you feel about it, but the Pope also opposed the sanctions against South Africa.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I am generally against sanctions myself, especially if they aren't hurting the intended target. I don't think the pope was accepting an apartheid regime anymore than he is accepting Saddam Hussein in this instance (although idiots like Ronnie will construe it that way).

[El Blanco]

In my opinion, sanctions are nothing more than bad PR.

Do people honestly believe that some evil dictator will all of a sudden have a change of heart with the new sudden cash flow?

And the black market and countries like China and France make sure that any sanctions imposed mean little except an excuse for a dictator to let the media photgraph his starving people.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

And the black market and countries like China and France make sure that any sanctions imposed mean little except an excuse for a dictator to let the media photgraph his starving people.

Sure, but the only people in Iraq who have access to this "black market" are people like Hussein. His people still suffer.

I think open markets and transparency are the only way to go, despite by Socialistic leanings. :)

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Fasting is fun. :|

[Protoclown]

I'd fast, but I see it as an utterly pointless form of protest. It doesn't do any good if nobody KNOWS you're doing it.

It's like "Bush, we're gonna daydream of PONIES all day long and there's nothing you can do to make us stop until you back off of Iraq! And we might even have SEVERAL scheduled Pony Daydream Days if you don't stop your warmongering ways!"

Marching the streets of Washington with signs and making your voice heard? Now that's cool by me! But I just don't see the point of doing something like this. I'm down with the spirit of it all, I just think this particular form of protest is a fruitless endeavor.

Then there's also the fact that I don't want to take a day off from my workout schedule while I'm still relatively new to this whole exercise thing...going without food all day and then working out = BAD IDEA.

[ItalianStereotype]

are you guys catholic?

[El Blanco]

You know what is funny? Today is Ash Wednesday. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO FAST!

I can't believe that didn't occur to me until today.

[Carnivore]

I'm the most non-practicing Catholic ever. I can't remember the last time I went to mass. I also don't believe in a lot of the Catholic Church's policies. I was raised Catholic, though. I'm baptised, confirmed, and all that other crap. Of course, I only got confirmed for the money. I'm probably going to hell for that. :/

[kellychaos]

And the black market and countries like China and France make sure that any sanctions imposed mean little except an excuse for a dictator to let the media photgraph his starving people.

Same can probably be said of foreign aid as well. In most cases, I believe the government probably somehow siezes or gets a percentage of the aid/monies and you're left with the same people still starving. :(

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You know what is funny? Today is Ash Wednesday. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO FAST!

I can't believe that didn't occur to me until today.

:lol

[ItalianStereotype]

yeah....i forgot all about fasting :/

[GAsux]

I will be the first to admit that I am very uneducated when it comes to matters of religion. That's not to say I'm an atheist perse, I'm not really anything I guess.

But regardless, I was just reading the news about the Pope stating that war in Iraq is unjust. Its presented in such a way that makes it appear as if its some kind of startling revelation. Perhaps its just because I dont fully understand the philosopies of various religions, but is that really such a big deal?

I mean, holy crap. He's the pope! Under what circumstances would the Pope say war IS justified? I dunno, I just thought it was funny the way it's being presented. Oh no, stop everything! The POPE said war is bad!

[mburbank]

The list of Popes who have actively endorsed war or stood idly by refusing comment is relly, really long. It's actually fairly unusual for the Pope to come out so vocally against a war.

[El Blanco]

Well, you can't blame the Pope during WW2. He happened to be in a city surrounded by Mussolini's troops.

[ItalianStereotype]

i say that all the fucking time, but everyone else says "a real catholic would have opposed the war, even if it meant having the vatican burned down."

[FS]

Now, I have to wonder. Did the pope ask people to fast on a fasting day to protect his health, or did he forget one of his own religion's holidays?

[mburbank]

I'm sorry, I was under the impression the Pope took his marching orders from God.

[El Blanco]

Martyrs are admired. Leaders are followed. I think the world needed more leaders at that point.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A44591-2003Mar18?language=printer

washingtonpost.com
Vatican: US, Backers Responsible Before God on Iraq



Reuters
Tuesday, March 18, 2003; 7:14 AM



VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican said on Tuesday countries that decide to wage war on Iraq without a global consensus must take responsibility before God and history -- making clear the Pope would not endorse their actions.

"Those who decide that all peaceful means that international law makes available are exhausted assume a grave responsibility before God, their conscience and history," said Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls.

Navarro-Valls' comment was the Vatican's first official reaction to Washington's ultimatum to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to go into exile within 48 hours or face war. Both the British and Spanish prime ministers have backed Washington.

The latest developments will be a setback for Pope John Paul, who has led a vigorous diplomatic campaign against the threatened U.S.-led attack on Iraq, emerging as one of the world's most powerful anti-war voices.

At the weekend he issued a passionate plea for peace and said Iraq's leaders had a duty to cooperate with international community to avert war. He told both sides there was still time to negotiate.

The 82-year-old pontiff has held talks with world leaders who are opposed to war and those who are its staunchest supporters. He has also sent peace envoys to both Washington and Baghdad.

The Vatican has said it will not shut its embassy in Iraq even if war breaks out.


© 2003 Reuters