Peak Oil

[Nerd]

As I'm sure a lot of you have already read, Peak Oil is apparently, the end of the world as we know it. And it's going to happen very soon.

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html

Scary, no? Even with all the evidence, I'm still skeptic about the whole thing. But I'd be interested to hear what you all have to say about it.

[AChimp]

He stated that fuel cell vehicles would never amount to significant market share. Hydrogen was ruled out as a solution because of intensive costs of production, inherent energy inefficiencies, lack of infrastructure, and practical difficulties such as the extreme cost and difficulty of storage.

Which is exactly what can be said of the situation with gasoline a century ago when automobiles were just making their debut. The change was made, though, because cars were better than buggies.

That website is just a pile of paranoid shit. While it's got a few good bits, it's mostly just a soapbox to advocate reshaping society to fit his vision of everyone living like the Amish.

[El Blanco]

1) Those problems with hydrogen aren't insurmountable, they just need more research. Hell, we can store it.

2) When exactly did oil and hydrogen become the only 2 fuel sources on earth?

[DamnthatDavid]

That idiot has no idea what he talking about.

Hydrogen was ruled out as a solution because of intensive costs of production

Take a car battery, attach wires to each end, run wires into fishtank. Keep them seperated. See the bubbles? That the splitting of the Hydrogen and Oxygen.

Freaking retard, the most difficult part is harnessing the pure Hydrogen. But that only difficult for home hydrogen makers.
Hell, they where splitting H2O during WW1.

[Perndog]

Ahem, ye unenlightened ones..

1) Hydrogen is not a fuel source. Energy from oil is used to extract hydrogen from water, and the hydrogen is then burned, producing less energy than the conversion process. Fuel cells are an energy storage and transfer medium only. In short, hydrogen has nothing at all to do with the issue.

2) Oil is not the only source of energy we use, but it is the cheapest, most abundant, most technologically viable, and most used. It accounts for a very large percentage of worldwide energy production, and if oil prices rise rapidly no other energy source can make up for that percentage because they are all either a) not economically feasible or b) not technologically possible.

I'm reserving judgment on the issue because at my age and financial status there's not much I can do to prepare myself for it. I think it's more than paranoia, though (please consider their sources and also do a search for rebuttals), and we'll find out for certain in a few years.

[DamnthatDavid]

You a bit off with the first one Perndog.

Hydrogen can directly replace Gasoline.

Hydrogen is an explosive (Note the Hindenburg)
But it is also a gas (vapor). A redesign, and complete sealing of a car and engine would be required.

It is more explosive, and packs more punch then Gasoline.
(which is why Car Companies are looking at Hydrogen Fuel Cells and not pure Hydrogen motors)

Any engine forced to put up with the rigors of a Hydrogen fuel source would shake itself apart if not close to perfectly made.

And my above statement is partially correct. You need alot more energy then from a simple battery. Hydroelectric Dams have everything set up to produce Hydrogen, just not compress and hold it.

[Royal Tenenbaum]

"A little about myself: A few months ago, I was a 25 year old law school graduate who found out he had just passed the California Bar Exam. I was excited about a potentially long and prosperous career in the legal profession, getting married, having kids, contributing to my community, and living the "American Dream." "

This is part where I'm like "faggggggggg." And then maybe I'll read the rest someday.


edit: Ok, I read it, and all I can say is FUCK. Seriously, this is insane, and I am so pissed.

[Perndog]

Sigh.

David. Listen to me.

Take a car battery, attach wires to each end, run wires into fishtank. Keep them seperated. See the bubbles?

Right. How did you charge the battery in the first place? Batteries don't come out of the ground or the air.

I will repeat myself here. HYDROGEN IS NOT AN ENERGY SOURCE. IT REQUIRES MORE ENERGY TO EXTRACT HYDROGEN THAN IS PRODUCED BY BURNING IT.

And my above statement is partially correct. You need alot more energy then from a simple battery. Hydroelectric Dams have everything set up to produce Hydrogen, just not compress and hold it.

Hydroelectric plants produce a very small percentage of the world's energy, dams are expensive to build, and there are only so many places you can build them.

Hydrogen can directly replace Gasoline

We're not talking about running cars here, we're talking about everything that requires energy. Energy that is mostly produced by burning oil.

[El Blanco]

Isn't nuclear power more efficient than oil?

And, if run properly, a nuclear power plant is a lot more enviormental friendly than oil. The problem is, it has the stigma. Everyone thinks "Chernobyl" or "Three Mile Island".

[Perndog]

Nuclear (fission) power is more efficient than oil, but there are three problems with it.

1) Uranium is in limited supply too.

2) Nuclear plants produce hazardous waste that is not as abundant as pollution from burning oil and safe if well-contained BUT very difficult to dispose of using current technology.

3) As you said, the stigma. Nuclear power has taken such hits in terms of public opinion and corporate support that here in Minnesota they actually built six coal power plants rather than one new nuclear plant. Yes, coal. Dirty, inefficient, etc.

[executioneer]

well all we have to do is develop a working, efficient cold fusion reactor then :rolleyes

-willie

[Perndog]

They've been working on that for a while. (http://www.infinite-energy.com/)

But who knows when it will actually be possible. They've been sending letters to the US government for research grants but they're not getting any aid.

[Pee Wee Herman]

We can use perpetual motion machines for generating energy.

[ranxer]

regarding hydrogen.. tis true that hydrogen is a storage type fuel created from some other energy.

one of the best sources of hydrogen is solar power.. how many people think the sun won't rise tomorrow? barring the sun blowing up you can depend on making hydrogen many days of the year from water and solar power.. and solar panels last more than 30 years.

imho the hydrogen fuel cell (no combustion) is the way to go for home power generation. the combustion process has a tiny problem with ozone generation but if you live in mexico city or some city with lots of smog the hydrogen combustion process cleans many pollutants from the air making the exhaust cleaner than the intake air :)

all that aside peak oil problems are almost as bad as the global warming problems coming up.

[DamnthatDavid]

Hydroelectric plants produce a very small percentage of the world's energy, dams are expensive to build, and there are only so many places you can build them.

I forget that most of the U.S. does not have hydroelectric dams. I guess only the Northwest shall benefit from Hydrogen cars.

[AChimp]

Canada has hydro dams up the wazoo. You'll take all your orders from us in the New Order. >:

[Spectre X]

I fucking HOPE that this really happens. Gonna get myself into some Mad Max-like adventures. :)

[ranxer]

hehe, max makes an apearance in this peak oil vid :)

found at: http://www.piratevideo.tv/news/index.php

[Bennett]

Peak makes antifreeze not oil you fags.

[The One and Only...]

I'm waiting for the sunlight powered vehicles.

And on an unrelated note... wind power is not as damn impressive as you think it does. It takes up a large amount of space, and oil is still required as a backup energy source because of how fickle the weather can be.

[Perndog]

No one mentioned wind power, but you're right, and the same goes for solar power. Both are horribly unreliable.

[DamnthatDavid]

Our best chances are thermal, hydroelectric dams (even if it kills the river) and tidal generators.

[derrida]

Why not firewood and draft animals?

[ranxer]

wind or solar shouldnt really stand alone.. together they can handle most reasonable household uses. i'll stick with the old lead acid batteries for storage though, hydrogen is a little tricky. this is my preparation for peak oil, um and getting a motorcycle.

oh and tagging suv's for fun with that sticker "I'm changing the Environment, ask me how" - kinda like therapy for the gas hog haters :)

[Perndog]

All vandals of any kind should be punched in the teeth repeatedly.

As soon as I own a house I will also equip it with solar panels; the problem is that they may run your house but they will be inadequate to sustain industry.

[derrida]

What about graffiti? Most people would consider it art, but it's still vandalism!

Are billboards vandalism?

I think vandalism can be a good thing.

[Perndog]

Vandalism is the destruction, defacement, or devaluing of another person's property. If it's not yours and you fuck with it, you're a vandal and you deserve a beating.

The only way billboards could possibly considered a form of vandalism is if you think the ground they are placed on is the universal property of mankind, and if you believe that you also deserve a beating.

[derrida]

The only way billboards could possibly considered a form of vandalism is if you think the ground they are placed on is the universal property of mankind, and if you believe that you also deserve a beating.

Which is no less absurd than the belief that the ground rightfully belongs to those people with sufficient quantities of guns and slips of green paper...

http://www.fantasy-world.co.uk/media/costumes/american/indian.jpg
PLEASE FUCKING BEAT US

[Perndog]

I find it absurd that you believe you own your car just because you had sufficient slips of paper to trade for it. Therefore, it is okay for me to steal your car.

[Emu]

I think those people should be beaten for wearing those costumes. :\

[Perndog]

Yeah, I kinda thought that too.

[The One and Only...]

I think vandalism can be a good thing.

Subjective value statement. >:


Which is no less absurd than the belief that the ground rightfully belongs to those people with sufficient quantities of guns and slips of green paper...

Which is not an absurd belief.

[Perndog]

Well he did say "no less," meaning his belief could be considerably more absurd than that one. :)

[Zebra 3]

>: - I've been aware of so-call "Peak Oil" as far back as 1983, ya fuckin' drama queen!

:) - Anyways, check out a company that made hydrogen powered vehicles into a reality, Ballard.com (http://www.ballard.com/default.asp?pgid=1&dbid=1).

[Perndog]

DAMN IT, HYDROGEN POWER DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS! HYDROGEN IS NOT A FUCKING ENERGY SOURCE! >:

[The One and Only...]

Yeah... I never really understood where that misconception came from in the first place...

The hydrogen still needs to be seperated by electrical pulses, generated by (TA-DA!!!) oil.

Hydrogen cars are like a tax on environmentalists that don't know any better.

[DamnthatDavid]

Hydrogen, yes, takes energy to make, but not as much as you think.

It will be cheaper, and use less oil (For the Power Plants) to power one hydrogen car for a year, then a standard gasoline powered auto.
Oh fucking well, they have to built 1 more powerplant dedicated to powering a hydrogen plant. That one Power Plant will still use less oil then it would take to keep a local populace driving around in Gasoline gars.

Hydrogen is not the final solution, but it a step forward. Until we discover a abundent energy source, we will just have to cut back on the fuel consumption. Thermal Energy is the way to go.

[Perndog]

Okay, I guess I need another all caps post.

THE ISSUE ALSO DOESN'T HINGE ON THE CARS PEOPLE DRIVE, BECAUSE OIL IS USED FOR EVERYTHING ELSE, TOO. QUIT FUCKING BRINGING UP CARS IN A THREAD ABOUT A POSSIBLE WORLDWIDE ENERGY CRISIS.

[DamnthatDavid]

The fucking biggest drain on the worlds oil supply IS VEHICLES.
We have enough clean energy resources scattered around that we could make the remaining oil reserves last 10 times longer. IF we do something about automobiles.

Look at Japan, if they fucking switched to Hydrogen cars, they will be totally independent of oil as an energy source. They all fucking powered by Nuclear Energy right now. Sure, the nukes won't last forever, but they will fucking last long enough for us to come up with something new.

[Perndog]

Okay, look at it this way. 60% of oil consunption in the US is for transportation. The best estimates put final energy output of hydrogen fuel cells at twice that of gasoline, cutting consumption by transportation in half and reducing the total consumption of the US by 30%, while it rises every year and will probably make up for that 30% in a decade or less.

See the problem?

[DamnthatDavid]

Yes, I see the problem, but you can not just suddenly cut off oil. You need to ease it off, transition like. The next step would be Hydrogen, Hybrids And it will last maybe 50 years before:
A: They find a renewable energy source to replace oil. (I going for thermal)
B: We all die in a nuclear war over the last remaining oil fields.


I still think the half in oil need is off a bit. Most hydroelectric dams don't run at full capacity. I know the ones in the Northwest don't.

[davinxtk]

On the subject of vandalism:
http://www.banksy.co.uk/
http://www.stencilrevolution.com/

[Perndog]

David, did you read about Peak Oil at all?

We're not going to run out of oil. Instead, the price of it is going to rise so it becomes impossible for us to depend on it like we do. Instead of drying up, the oil wells will just involve a lot more work and demand a lot more resources to keep running. And if predictions are true, this will happen a lot quicker than 50 years. Again, if predictions are true, there can be no "easing it off" because the crisis is already at hand.

[Pub Lover]

I also read about this bac kin the 80's, I remember turning to the guy with me & laughing at the idea of no one listening... :(

No, wait! I'm still laughing, hahaha, We're so screwed! :lol