Haiti, Bush, Next Big Mess

[mburbank]

Bush Urges International Forces in Haiti
By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush said Wednesday that the United States is encouraging the international community to provide a strong "security presence" in Haiti as America and its allies continue to try to achieve a political solution to the island nation's escalating violence.


Bush said the United States was discussing such a security presence at the moment, but he provided no details.

Bush said he has been closely consulting with Secretary of State Colin Powell in an effort to reach an accord between Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide and rebels who have seized control of large parts of Haiti.

"We will have a robust presence with an effective strategy," Bush told reporters following an Oval Office meeting with the president of Georgia.





I think it might be a little too late for either of those things. Why exactly would the rebels concider accepting a negotiated peace now, having gotten almost to Aristides door? They might have a few weeks ago, but now? And if they don't accept it, what do we propose to do?

Are we even clear who's side w'ere on? Aristide is hugely corrupt, has failed in every way, but is also a democratically elected leader. If we end up firing on the rebels and protecting Aristide, where does that put us visa vis Chavez, another democratically elected leader who the United states absolutely wants out.

Our armed forces are spread pretty thin. Whay tardstick are we going to use to determine which regimes we're going to change and when?

[mesobe]

Bush is up to something again.

[Perndog]

:lol "tardstick"

[mburbank]

And not just any tardstick, either. 'Whay' tardstick.

As in "That is whay tardstick, dude."

[mesobe]

well, it looks like big brother is doing a bang up job!

"they dont suspect a thing!"

[kellychaos]

My last carribean vacation included a nice stay in Haiti while the U.S. forces oversaw the peaceable substitution of a maniacal militant dictator with the previously exiled Aristid. He was supposed to be the good guy and the Haitian nationals were literally dancing in the street during his re-inauguration into office. Deja vu all over again?

[Ronnie Raygun]

THIS IS ALL A PART OF BUSH'S EVIL PLOT TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!!!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

THIS IS ALL A PART OF RONNIE'S DETERMINATION TO NEVER DISCUSS SUBSTANCE!!! RONNIE, WHERE ARE YOUR POM-POMS?????????

[DamnthatDavid]

Last time I checked, we sent troops down there only to protect our embassy. Which has had a couple of rocks thrown at it so far.

The numbers are small, and no word has been mentioned to the press about an Military Action. And no rumors flying from the local base about any possible military action.

[Zhukov]

I'd never thought as Aristide as very progressive... no matter how left wing the US might think he is, hebrely passes as a reformist in my eyes. But the rebels are obviously much worse. Theyare former death squad and military leaders from the disbanded army, they were formerly called "the Cannibals" and are now renamed the Gonaives Resistance Front aftr taking the city f Gonaives and declarng an indipendant nation. No really, they did.

The GRF are headed by Buter Metayer, who was a former Aristide supporter.

The mainstream opposition, including groups such as the Group of 184 and the Convergence Democratique have distanced themselves from the GRF as of late, but were previously encouraging them as they felt they could come to power on the back of a coup against Aristide.

Aristides government only has a police force of about 4000, and are out gunned by the paramilitaries.

"We have machetes and guns, and we will resist. The police might have been scared, but the people got together and organized…We blocked the streets."

-Pierre Frandley tells the Associated Press 02/20/2004


A successful coup would obviously be a nightmare for the Haitian people, as the old paramilitaries who instated a murderous regime in the early 1990s would exact a terrible revenge upon Aristide, his supporters, and the Haitian workers and urban poor.

I think the US will wait until Aristde is overthrown and then step in to supress the rebels (who are the major minority btw) and install someone more right wing than Aristide. Whoever takes power, you can bet that they will speak French.

[mburbank]

"We will have a robust presence with an effective strategy,"

I just found out W was talking about defending america from Hatian refugees running away from being chopped to bits by crazy people with Machettes. Thank GOD this caring, compassionate christian leader can be counted on to have his priorities straight.

[kellychaos]

When I was down there and they put Aristid back into power, all those powerful military rebels escaped into the Dominican Republic (or perhaps hid in the mountains) and Aristid resumed his position with barely a skirmish with U.S. troops ... and most of those incidents involved the advance troops (i.e. special forces). We used a division (+) and it amounted to a humanitarian mission more than anything else.

[davinxtk]

Excuse me for being ignorant here, but why can't we just stay the fuck out of another country's business?

They're in the middle of a revolution.
Wouldn't we have been pissed if someone had fucked with our revolution?

This isn't some sort of holocaust or ethnic cleansing. There's no evil Baath-esque regime that needs toppling in Haiti, just a revolution.
Why does America need to get involved?
We're playing bully on the playground here, and I'm sick of it.

[Zhukov]

They're in the middle of a revolution.

You fucking idiot, how on earth is it a revolution? The people are against it. COUP! COUP!

[davinxtk]

Are the people against it?
Do you live in Haiti?


Stop trusting everything you hear on the news.
Didn't they tell us that 60% of America favored war in Iraq?

[Matt Harty]

Excuse me for being ignorant here

[davinxtk]

Catbread?


You actually still post here?

[Zhukov]

Stop trusting everything you hear on the news.

:lol Sorry, I guess I just believe everything I hear on TV. Perhaps I should think outside the circle of the status quo and see what other ideas there are. Whenever I hear something said on the news, I take it as fact, when really I should be more wary of whatever is said.

I don't live in Haiti, but what are you doing to furhter the revolution there? Are you for, or against the rebels? Have they taken over your town or city yet? Are they close?

It's a conflict between different sections of the ruling class. I don't know why the US should be overtly happy/sad about it, and so far I haven't seen anything to say that they are.

Whatever support it might get from the desperate, it's not a revolution but a coup. You are obviously confusing violent changes of government with revolution.

Your "revolutionaries" are capitalist/criminal funded armed gangs who are fighting for governmental power. There might be a coup (and most probably a reactionary one), but no revolution.


Wouldn't we have been pissed if someone had fucked with our revolution?
Didn't the French get involved?

[davinxtk]

The French?
Are you actually considering them a mentionable part of any wartime activity, spare the Maquis?

I've heard what's going on in Haiti referred to as a revolution.
Maybe I've heard wrong.

[Pub Lover]

Davin's talking too much. Quick someone, get a mirror!

[davinxtk]

For real.

[The One and Only...]

What are you talking about, Davin? We only won the war because of the French.

I would be a lot more willing to dump troops in Haiti than what we did to Iraq. We may not be able to support successful coups, but we surely crush them.

I doubt it would hurt America's security very badly... these guys don't sound like they have an extensive amount of resources at their disposal, and they don't sound crazy enough to do suicidal things.

Still, we should refrain from making a permanent military presence there.

[davinxtk]

Raise your hand if you see involvement without a maintained presence as an actual possibility.

[Big Papa Goat]

raise your hands if you think davin knows what he's talking about

[DamnthatDavid]

What are you talking about, Davin? We only won the war because of the French.

What war do you speak of? Ain't you Canadian?

The American Revolution?
bah, we would of won, just would of taken longer.

World War 1?
I thought the french women would of appreciated some real war winning men.

World War 2?
The only thing they contributed to the war was all those nice little white flags that the Germans used after the French where finished with them.

All other conflicts?
Oi? The only time France has ever won any war was when they served under a Peasent Girl with visions, and a short man from Corsica.

[davinxtk]

Not to mention the French Revolution.

And even then, half of them lost.

[DamnthatDavid]

Ok, ok, I found this history nitpick once long ago, and I have found it again.
Saddly, the original page I got it from had links to historical info on every war. (Added some more I found myself)

- Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

- Hundred Years War
- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." Sainted.

- Italian Wars
- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion
- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War
- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Revolution
- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

- The Dutch War
- Tied

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War
- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

- War of the Spanish Succession
- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution
- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution
- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.
(During the Revolution, the French Congress declared war on Austria. No one noticed.)

- The Napoleonic Wars
- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War
- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

- World War II
- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina
- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion
- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism
- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

The question for any country silly enough to count on the French should not be "Can we count on the French?", but rather "How long until France collapses?"

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. All you do is leave behind a lot of noisy baggage."

[Zhukov]

I don't think anyone laughs at those anti-French jokes anymore. :/

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Vincered/france-1940_002.jpg
One of 92 000 Frenchman who gave their lives during a six week campaign of resistance in 1940.

[The One and Only...]

Ain't you Canadian?

Chimp would already have slit my throat if I were a canuck.

The American Revolution?
bah, we would of won, just would of taken longer.

Please. If the French hadn't flanked the English at Yorktown and cut off reinforcements, we would have been toast.

[Zhukov]

Toast? I think the yanks would have won eventualy. That doesn't mean that French interferance wasn't welcome, though.

[The One and Only...]

Maybe, but it would have been a long, painful haul.

Of course, the British fought like idiots anyway, what with the red coats and lined-up units...

[The One and Only...]

And about Bush "protecting" America from Haitian refugees... I feel your pain, Burbank. That and the trade embargo are only aggravating the situation.

It seems these rebels are members of the military. That could pose some problems, because the last thing we need to do is act Haiti's military for a while and pump out more money for reconstruction. I suppose if it gets too bad, military intervention is a last resort, but surely some sort of diplomatic answer is in order.

[Zhukov]

It seems these rebels are members of the military.
Don't people listen?! >:

OH SHIT :lol

Feb 29, 10:29 AM (ET)

By PAISLEY DODDS and IAN JAMES

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti (AP) - Haiti's beleaguered President Jean-Bertrand Aristide resigned and flew into exile Sunday. Gunfire rang out through the capital, and the United States said an international peacekeepers - including Americans - would be deployed soon.

The head of Haiti's supreme court said he was taking charge.

U.N. diplomats said key Security Council members would begin to talk Sunday about a resolution to authorize an international force.

Prime Minister Yvon Neptune said at a press conference that Aristide resigned to "prevent bloodshed."


(AP) Rebel leader Lois Jodel Chamblain celebrates after news of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide's...
Full Image


At the same news conference, U.S. Ambassador James Foley insisted the United States had not asked Aristide to resign.

"President (Jean-Bertrand) Aristide made a decision for the good of the Haitian people," Foley said. "International military forces including U.S. forces will be rapidly arriving in Haiti to begin to restore a sense of security."

A jet carrying the ex-leader landed on the island of Antigua for refueling and was headed to South Africa, local radio stations reported. But the government in Johannesburg said there had been no recent contact with Aristide nor an offer of asylum.

Three hours after Aristide's departure, Supreme Court Justice Boniface Alexandre declared he was taking over as called for by the constitution. He urged calm after more than three weeks of violence.

"The task will not be an easy one," Alexandre, who is in his 60s, said at a news conference. "Haiti is in crisis. ... It needs all its sons and daughters. No one should take justice into their own hands."

Despite Alexandre's declaration that he was in charge, the Haitian constitution calls for parliament to approve him as leader and the legislature has not met since early this year when lawmakers' terms expired.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040229/D8110AJ80.html
There's pictures, too.

[The One and Only...]

What I mean to say is that other than these ex-military rebels, Haiti doesn't seem to have any strong military force.

[El Blanco]

While they didn't deliver much in the way of ground forces, the French did come through with strategists, logistics and naval support.

Oh, and Zuk, I always laugh at French jokes.

This isn't some sort of holocaust or ethnic cleansing. There's no evil Baath-esque regime that needs toppling in Haiti, just a revolution.
Why does America need to get involved?
We're playing bully on the playground here, and I'm sick of it.

Just where exactly do you think this sort of thing goes if left unchecked? You want us to wait until the bodies line the streets in every Haitian village?

"Ok, 2 million Haitians have been summarily executed, now we should look into intervention."

[DamnthatDavid]

I don't think anyone laughs at those anti-French jokes anymore

As Americans, it is our duty to laugh at the French. They laughing at us. So why not return the favor?

[Zhukov]

What I mean to say is that other than these ex-military rebels, Haiti doesn't seem to have any strong military force.
Sorry, my fault. I guess I jumped the gun...

Oh, and Zuk, I always laugh at French jokes.

Okay, I don't think anyone with a brain lauhs at those jokes.

One of two things will happen: either the US marines will move in to make sure the murderous thugs settle in nicely and perhaps move the furniture around a little, or the rebels will be shown for who they are (but not who supported them) and will be replaced with a puppet of Washington leading to possibly more armed bloodshed.

[davinxtk]

Just where exactly do you think this sort of thing goes if left unchecked? You want us to wait until the bodies line the streets in every Haitian village?

"Ok, 2 million Haitians have been summarily executed, now we should look into intervention."

At least we'd be following historical precedent. :die

[mburbank]

Duvalier is now actively talking about returning to Haiti. I wonder if he'd be interested in buying a democratic election?

Seriously, we could talk to him and get him to agree to do things the way we want them done in Haiti the way we want them done, and then we could buy him an election. That way we'd have our own pet dictator on the throne and be supporting democracy at the same time, which seems like a win win to me. Plus, dictators we prop up never turn against us. We've been very lucky that way.

[kellychaos]

Aristid's been proven to be a failure at leadership not once but twice. At the very least, he should be thanking us for smuggling his ass out of there before something worse happened to him rather than accuse our troops of virtually kidnapping him. I say, let them duke it out amongst themsevles in a big island cage match and support the winner. The only time peace-keeping seems to work is when we actually occupy the country ... and I don't see any kind of trade embargo being that effective when a country is already that poor.