The "problems" with our educational system

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I wanted to start up a thread here about this in light of what just happened to me at work.

Critics of our current public education system, primarily conservative Republicans, argue that funding isn't the issue in public education. The problem, they cite, is that there aren't enough "standards"set-- for both the children and the teachers.

I work at a school district in Texas. This district in particular, much like the rest of Texas, has VERY high testing standards for elementary aged children. It also sets very strict standards for its teachers and faculty. However, at least through my work experience, I have been given the opportunity to see first hand what these "standards"really do. For the teachers, they hold "learning walks," observations, etc. The criteria set inolves the amount of stuff a teacher has up on their walls, how pretty it looks, student ar work, etc. So, the teacher I assist had her observation today. She had me help her make her room look like it's "supposed" to for her observation/walk through. These "standards"are faux, and don't necessarily reflect ANYTHING about the quality of education in my teacher's class. But teachers are kept constantly neurotic, in a state of alarm, worrying more about the crap on their walls then the overall learning environment in their class.

The other issue is the testing. Kids in this state are CONSTANTLY testing. What children are required to know in Kindergarten and first grade TODAY is well beyond what any of us were expected to know. These are more "standards" that somehow make our educational system more substantive and efficient. Yet, these kids all take these demanding tests, and yet statistically, a majority of the children who go to junior high in this district can't read at a 6th grade reading level. A LARGE amount of these kids never even graduate. With all of these standars and testing, how is that possible...? Well, it's simple. Teachers teach to the test. You teach what the tests ask of you, you solve reading and math questions that reflect those on the exams, and you essentially teach kids how to pass one test, rather than teaching children how to learn in a broader sense. These are "standards".

Now, I'm not against setting high standards and expectations for children. I like seeing the bar set high for kids, and I personally try to do it every day with the children I work with. However, setting standards that don't mean anything only hurts the kids in my opinion.

So anyway, since everyone seems to think we have problems in our system, usually for different reasons, then I'd like to know what we can do to improve the status of the system. Anyone like OAO who says something ridiculous like "the public system has failed, abandon it"will be from here on out ignored. I want mature, reasonable people to TRY responding. I think it was Blanco who once said he dislikes anybody who has a quick and easy, one fit solution for education. I think I'm inclined to agree with that.

So what can fix it? What are the problems? I personally don't feel that the solution is Edison schools, or vouchers, or complete abandonment of the public system. I'm certainly not opposed to experimentation, but I feel some people, who are more so infused and drunk with ideology rather than real concern for the young, would like to see the system become more nationalized or even more so privatized. I have come to believe that fixing a leaky faucet by ripping up all of the pipes may not be a wise or effective measure.

[Dole]

There are very similar problems over here. Since the Tories introduced the 'national curriculum' there are are far more tests for much younger kids than there ever were. These basically mean that Teachers are bogged down with insane amounts of bureaucratic crap that goes with this testing, they are far more restricted on what they can teach, less able kids can be stigmatised and labelled as failures at a VERY young age, and the results of all these tests are published in league tables, so the schools that perform at the bottom are far more concerned with their on paper record for these tests than in the quality or scope of the teaching.

Its part of a larger trend that everything can only be expressed in statistical form to make it valid- our health service REALLY suffers because of these league tables.

[Emu]

I think part of the problem in higher level grades is the way textbooks present information. Instead of all-text books you had back in the day, most books now are filled with distracting pictures and little unnecessary "did you know" tidbits that waste space and jack up the price of the books. Not to mention the advertising a lot of publishers stick in the books ("If Coke has 11 mg of whatever and Pepsi has 33, how many more times does Pepsi have" stuff.) It seems like they dance around the actual information instead of presenting it. Also, there's been a huge decline in students actually reading what the book says; this is pretty evident in my math class, where everyone skips straight to the problem section instead of reading how to solve the problem.

[AChimp]

The problem that's happening here is that there's too much one-on-one evaluation. In the last few years, early grade school teachers have been forced to evaluate each child independently, rather than using a test to see how the entire class is doing overall. Thus, each child gets attention for a little while as the class goes largely ignored.

Of course, it should also be noted that the vast majority of teachers are complaining about this process, but they are required to do it or they will loose their jobs. The school divisions here hired some egghead learning coordinators with psychology degrees to come up with a new action plan, and the fact that this failure has stuck around so long just shows that a few people somewhere don't want to admit they are capable of making a mistake.

Standards testing here is still relatively low compared to other places I've heard about. I was one of the first groups to hit all the initial tests--I suppose that makes my class the guinea pig. We had a general science test in Grade 4 (which they have now moved to Grade 3), and a Math test in Grade 9. In order to graduate, you must pass a provincial English and Math exam, both of which are ridiculously easy. There's probably more testing now, but I don't really know about it; I've been out of the grade school loop for quite a few years now.

One of the problems with poor reading levels is the techniques used to teach reading to young kids. Like I said before, I was among one of the first groups to go through the "new system," but my Grade 1 teacher was an old woman who'd been teaching for 40 years.

We all learned how to read phonetically, as I'm sure most of the older Mockers here did. You know, sounding words out and stuff.

Now they teach it more like memorization. "C, A, T is cat. Remember it." I was taught the difference between a hard C and a soft C, "at" is pronouced "aaht," etc.

[Emu]

I honestly can't even remember being taught to read. Maybe that's because I learned how before I actually entered school and I didn't pay attention, but I can't recall a single grammar lesson before 7th grade.

[Dole]

Thats because you were part of some elaborate experiment to create nerds in test tubes.

[Emu]

oh fuck >:

[Miss Modular]

Critics of our current public education system, primarily conservative Republicans, argue that funding isn't the issue in public education. The problem, they cite, is that there aren't enough "standards"set-- for both the children and the teachers.

I'm certainly not opposed to experimentation, but I feel some people, who are more so infused and drunk with ideology rather than real concern for the young, would like to see the system become more nationalized or even more so privatized.

I think you have a point here, Kev, especially with the last paragraph.

You know, before I started posting at this board, I posted at another political board. Being in college at the time (this was four years ago), I was the youngest person on the board. Once in awhile, there would be this troll posing as a "conservative" (I would say he was actually a reactionary, or maybe even a facsist--this guy could've made Vinth cry). One time, the guy came in after I said something about a conservative posting at the board, and insulted me, calling me a "dumbed down female", I guess his way of thinking that I'm a victim of our education system. While I don't deny that our education system isn't so great, I do think that there are people more interested in upholding an ideology rather than seeking real solutions, the person I just mentioned being one of them.

[Perndog]

One of the problems with poor reading levels is the techniques used to teach reading to young kids. Like I said before, I was among one of the first groups to go through the "new system," but my Grade 1 teacher was an old woman who'd been teaching for 40 years.

We all learned how to read phonetically, as I'm sure most of the older Mockers here did. You know, sounding words out and stuff.

Now they teach it more like memorization. "C, A, T is cat. Remember it." I was taught the difference between a hard C and a soft C, "at" is pronouced "aaht," etc.

That's frightening. They did that for a while in the USA (Dr. Seuss's first few books were commissioned for use with the word memorization method) and it made hundreds of kids dyslexic because they got to be like 10 years old and never learned how letters sounded.

[El Blanco]

Is there anyway we can get a federal mandate to get parents to be involved with their kids' homework?

When I grew up, I was plopped down at the kitchen table next to an adult who made sure I was doing it. Every couple of weeks, my parents actually called my teacher, with out the scheduled conference, to see how things went. And they both worked full time and ran a small family bussiness.

They also made the older kids help the younger ones.

I don't get that feeling now. The people I've met and work with seem to think kids are a fashion accessory. They get off telling each other how liberated they are and how many different activites their kids are in.

While I do get what you saying, Kev, and think you do make good points, I think the problem doesn't lie in funding or goverement evaluations. It is in the home and the lack of personal responsibility I've perceived from parents.

[Brandon]

I should mention that while I'm not a blind faith advocate of public education, I still feel that it's being unfairly maligned by conservatives.

The Myth of Our Failed Education System
by Forrest J. Troy

On a return to earth, Dante almost certainly would establish a new rung in hell for those attempting to obliterate public education. It is the most lied-about, misreported story in America. Newsweekly magazines, mindless editorial pages, television newscasts, talk radio and televangelists malign public education with a ferocity usually reserved for serial killers.

Why? What is it about this 200-year-old institution that makes it a lightning rod? Is it the tool of gluttonous unions as depicted by Rush Limbaugh? Is public schooling the "place of darkness" that Jerry Falwell has termed it? Is it the total academic failure painted by two ex-secretaries of education, Republicans Lamar Alexander and William Bennett?

Name one other institution that flings open itself to all comers--a perfect microcosm of our nation. Every autumn the miracle of America takes place when the doors of those 87,000 schools are thrown open, welcoming the genius and slow learner, rich and poor, average and developmentally disabled. Among them are the loved and unloved, the washed and unwashed.

Those who savage the public schools tear at the heart of this country. Everything America is or ever hopes to be depends upon what happens to those 46.3 million students in public school classrooms.

Myths Versus Facts
I unashamedly speak for public education--warts and all--and have done so for 30 years, delivering more than 2,800 speeches. My remarks are not Pollyannish. Public education has serious problems in the inner cities, and I don't ignore that. I'm not in the self-esteem business.

I've spent 40 years as an award-winning journalist, including a Pulitzer Prize nomination, dealing with hard facts and how those facts are interpreted. But outside of the major cities and rural pockets of poverty, America has a superbly successful public school system--certainly among the best in the world.

Myth: Teachers teach only nine months so why do they bellyache about low salaries?

Fact: Repeated studies show this isn't true. If you count hours worked, the average teacher does in nine months what it takes regular 40-hour workers to do in 11.5 months.

Myth: American students score less well than kids in almost every other country.

Fact: This is the biggest canard of them all. America's smart kids are as smart or smarter than those in any other country. Test scores have recovered after a huge dip due to integration of public education. Separate was never equal.

Myth: Twenty-five per cent of students drop out, evidence of how ineffective public schools are.

Fact: More horse hockey. The dropout rate last year was 11 percent. Add to that a record-high graduation rate and a whopping 450,000 GEDs issued last year and America is among the best educated nations in the world.

( Read More (http://www.aasa.org/publications/sa/1998_09/troy.htm), this is an excellent article, flamingly liberal as it may be. )

[kellychaos]

I don't really remember HOW I was taught to read. It seems part of it was phonetic, part of it was memorization of vocabulary tables (which was more of a photographic memory sort of thing rather than learning the definition ... if that makes any sense), and part of it was learning the hard word spellings and definitions by the surrounding context. While I think that learning by rote has it's place depending on the subject, a child should also learn to hone his analytic and problem-solving skills.

[The One and Only...]

Umm... I'm not sure where he came up with the "fact" that our students perform as well as or better than other students, but I have heard from my mother (a teacher) that many of the statistics collected to the contrary only used certain students in other countries.

And an 11% dropout rate is still huge.

[Brandon]

A question to conservatives that I never thought I'd have to ask: isn't it possible that maybe, just maybe, poor performance by a student is his or her own fault? His or her parents' fault?

[The One and Only...]

Sometimes it is.

Not always, though.

[Brandon]

Sometimes it is.

Not always, though.
Seems a little presumptuous to blame public schools outright then, don't you think?

Is there anyway we can get a federal mandate to get parents to be involved with their kids' homework?
Yikes. Please tell me you were kidding with this one.

[Perndog]

A question to conservatives that I never thought I'd have to ask: isn't it possible that maybe, just maybe, poor performance by a student is his or her own fault? His or her parents' fault?

Seems to me like this is almost universally the case. If a kid fails in school while his peers succeed, it's rarely because he's not getting the attention that he absolutely needs. It's more likely that he's been raised by inattentive parents or that he's simply a loser. At least all the dropouts in my public school were, and I know this because I went to school with them and met most of their parents. The ones who actually needed help were all put in special education (with the retards :) ) and got shipped off to tech school after they graduated (they make more money than I do now :P).

Of course, I can't speak for other public schools, and I've heard that they're not quite as good in some cities as they are in rural Minnesota (mine wasn't so hot, though). But I imagine higher dropout rates signify higher concentrations of fuckup parents rather than poor teaching.

From an idealist standpoint, I agree with Blanco; the government should be able to influence parents more, and I think if such a thing were possible at all it could be done with plenty of room left for personal preference and without forcing moral values on anyone (Satan's not a fan of morals). But it'll never happen.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Once again, I'm really, REALLY glad that we have Perndog here to clear all of these matters up for us.

When I grew up, I was plopped down at the kitchen table next to an adult who made sure I was doing it. Every couple of weeks, my parents actually called my teacher, with out the scheduled conference, to see how things went. And they both worked full time and ran a small family bussiness.

You're right, a lot of this has to do with poor parental involvement. However, despite your humorous comment on a parental mandate, I think you can agree that if parents can't/won't get involved at a sufficient level, then we need to go another direction, right?

Take my job for instance. I am serving one year with an AmeriCorps program geared towards helping young children with reading. The goal is to have them better prepared for the standardized testing that will hit them in SECOND grade. Now, clearly, I'm here subsidizing a void or a need. What is it? Is it financial? Is it governmental? No. I realize that I, to a great extent, get payed (very little, mind you) to do the things that parents should be doing. In fact, for example, here in Texas, Kindergarten age children are expected to gain a reading level betwen K and 1st grade. For many of these kids, juding their parents, this will not happen.

But we need to be careful of the Perndog evaluation of our education systen, in my opinion. I have been surprised by parents. Those that looked like the biggest thug gangsters turned out to be jugling 2 jobs, going to night school, and on top of that working with their child somewhere in the free space. I agree, Blanco, that we have some parental issues, but that can't be the entire problem. And if it is, then what do we do? My school does have parental services, programs, staffers, who help "teach" parents basically how to be educators in the home. But that takes funding, that takes bureacracy, that takes stuff that conservative critics all seem to be opposed to.

I don't get that feeling now. The people I've met and work with seem to think kids are a fashion accessory. They get off telling each other how liberated they are and how many different activites their kids are in.

Or worse yet, they view the public education system as one big daycare center (and a bad one at that).

While I do get what you saying, Kev, and think you do make good points, I think the problem doesn't lie in funding or goverement evaluations. It is in the home and the lack of personal responsibility I've perceived from parents.

I agree-- so what then is President Bush talking about in his new campaign ads, when he says "setting high standards, so our children can blossom," or whatever.....? Standards for whom?? And how do we properly administer these "standards" so that they accomplish their purpose...?

[Perndog]

Aww c'mon Kev. Am I that bad? I enjoy speculating on things that aren't too important to me, and if I'm not right (I think I have been once or twice) at least what I say is bait for intelligent refutation.

[punkgrrrlie10]

I think there is a lot more to learn today than there was in the past. There's more history to learn now b/c the country has gotten older, scientific advancements have made science a much bigger topic to learn, and people do at some point need to be taught to use a computer before they can post their political thoughts on message boards. I think they should just tack an extra year on to high school or make kids start a year earlier. When I look at what my younger brothers are learning (I have one in elementary, one in junior high and one in high school) it seems like teachers are just trying to cram all this info into their heads without really teaching them how to do these "assignments". With the exception of English and very basic math, all other topics have expanded.

[AChimp]

Or teach stuff faster. You could learn adding, subtracting, multiplying and division all in Grade 1. It's a proven fact that kids learn better when they're younger, too.

I say we reverse everything so that you're doing the hardcore stuff when you're little, and you're learning to colour when you about to graduate. :)

[MEATMAN]

Or teach stuff faster. You could learn adding, subtracting, multiplying and division all in Grade 1. It's a proven fact that kids learn better when they're younger, too.

I say we reverse everything so that you're doing the hardcore stuff when you're little, and you're learning to colour when you about to graduate. :)

:lol

But seriously, I think I can add something of worth.

I honestly can't even remember being taught to read. Maybe that's because I learned how before I actually entered school and I didn't pay attention, but I can't recall a single grammar lesson before 7th grade.

While I do get what you saying, Kev, and think you do make good points, I think the problem doesn't lie in funding or goverement evaluations. It is in the home and the lack of personal responsibility I've perceived from parents.

A question to conservatives that I never thought I'd have to ask: isn't it possible that maybe, just maybe, poor performance by a student is his or her own fault? His or her parents' fault?

If a kid fails in school while his peers succeed, it's rarely because he's not getting the attention that he absolutely needs. It's more likely that he's been raised by inattentive parents or that he's simply a loser. At least all the dropouts in my public school were, and I know this because I went to school with them and met most of their parents. The ones who actually needed help were all put in special education (with the retards :) ) and got shipped off to tech school after they graduated (they make more money than I do now :P ).

I may be mentally disabled, but even I know a few things.

I remember much of my life, mainly because my mother fills in the blanks. I learned to read before I started going to school, because I taught myself how to read. I was enrolled in military survival training, and learned to swim before I was 18 months old. I accept help only when I ask for it, which isn't often, since I'm rather stubborn and dislike having others do things for me. Even when I had a financial aid meeting for college for students with disabilities, (I have an ESE class, which I loathe to no end) I blatently refused to listen to a word that was said, because my stepfather earns $72,000 a year, and college was already paid for. I learned to fend for myself even before I entered middle school. I had a test in kindergarden that said I have an I.Q. of 140+. I've applied for engineering for my major. Sure, I've had problems. I was hit by a falling tree branch when I was two, and have the bald spot to prove it. I've had constant middle ear infections, which kept me from hearing much until I was three, so I started speaking late. I've been taking Ritalin since the first grade, because my idiot for a psychiatrist said I had autism. (I only learned recently I have an extreme case of Asperger's Syndrome) I've been on more medications than I can count, including Seroquel, which made me gain 50 pounds in two months. (I've never been able to get rid of it) I've been in a half-drugged stupor for half a year once. I've been a constant source of ridicule because of my extreme dislike of any sports, and my love of science and learning. (which I still do) I've been to Shands at Vista (a mental hospital) no less than five times since the eighth grade, because I kept getting into fights, including assault and battery on a police officer because I grabbed him. (no charges were filed, as he knew me for a long time, he wasn't hurt. and he knew I never meant to hurt him) I never went to my middle school graduation because of it. And yet I still manage to do things by myself. So what's with all this talk that says kids are incapable of taking care of themselves and dealing with life? I say, fuck the shitheads that complain all the time, and try dealing with the real problem, which is the so-called 'help', and not the symptoms, which is the results of this so-called 'help'.

[Emu]

My little cousin (who turns 7 or 8 this april, I think) has Asperger's syndrome. He's insanely smart for his age, but he has a lot of fits and doesn't work well with his peers so my aunt's had to ship him to about 5 different schools because they don't want to put up with him. It pisses me off a lot. :/

[AChimp]

They should beat the Asperger out of him.

[Emu]

You silly chimp :banana

[Perndog]

I have a 15 year old cousin with Asperger's; he couldn't cope with people at all until one day when he was in like eighth grade someone explained to him why he had problems. He was smart enough to teach himself to think about how he's supposed to act in social situations rather than relying on his poor instincts, and the result is that he doesn't seem any different than your average smart high school geek now.

And I have a classmate with Asperger's who got by with special attention all his life until he got to college and now he's turned into a dick because he thinks he can get away with whatever he wants.

Just thought I'd share.

[theapportioner]

Solution: gene therapy :p

I think, despite what most Americans would say, intelligence and ambition are simply not valued enough. Most parents don't emphasize education enough because that kind of culture does not exist here. Too many mixed messages, not enough focus. We admire entertainment figures, etc., other mediocrities when we should be admiring those who are intellectually great. Resolve this and the problem of public education will go a long way towards fixing itself I think.

Obviously, I do not mean this to be the panacea - there are many problems including the unequal quality of public schools, etc. that need to be resolved.

Being a child of asian parents, that kind of stuff was hammered down hard. Although, I would say that I didn't really start doing well in school (by my standards) until after my parents started laying off on the pressure (during 10th grade).

I would do a few things differently if I have a kid. Creativity must be emphasized - art, music classes, and a steady diet of film/art gallery/architecture/concert exposure. Also, I'd instill in her or him an aspiration for greatness - she or he should settle for nothing less than being a Feynman or a Huntington or a Stiglitz. I wouldn't make it too explicit, as I don't think that is necessary - lead by example. I would also read to him or her a steady diet of physics, Joyce, New England Journal of Medicine, Foriegn Affairs, Carnap, etc. etc. I think trying to make the kid enthusiastic about learning is the key. Unfortunately the most interesting things are not learned until college or afterwards, so it would be my aim to introduce these interesting things a little earlier, dumbed down of course.

[MEATMAN]

I have a 15 year old cousin with Asperger's; he couldn't cope with people at all until one day when he was in like eighth grade someone explained to him why he had problems. He was smart enough to teach himself to think about how he's supposed to act in social situations rather than relying on his poor instincts, and the result is that he doesn't seem any different than your average smart high school geek now.

And I have a classmate with Asperger's who got by with special attention all his life until he got to college and now he's turned into a dick because he thinks he can get away with whatever he wants.

Just thought I'd share.

Your cousin was different from me.

And your classmate probably would've been a dick anyway. I refuse special attention, as I insist to be treated like anyone else.

[punkgrrrlie10]

you are assuming that what is true for you is true for everyone. Everyone is different and a solution requires something that will be effective for a majority of kids. There will always be exceptions as people are different.