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Topic Review (Newest First)
Jun 4th, 2011 10:45 PM
Dimnos Much like gay prison sex?
Jun 2nd, 2011 03:16 AM
kahljorn I TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT THIS THREAD
May 23rd, 2011 12:27 PM
WhiteRat This might be a decent deterrent:

May 23rd, 2011 05:56 AM
Pentegarn Unless you like gay prison sex
May 23rd, 2011 03:44 AM
Fathom Zero I'd say it's a decent deterrent.
May 21st, 2011 04:51 PM
Pentegarn
May 21st, 2011 12:32 PM
Dimnos Gay prison sex is a crucial part of the American correctional system.
May 20th, 2011 04:36 PM
Pentegarn I will miss the Philo mod era, it made me laugh
May 20th, 2011 03:21 PM
kahljorn MAKE ME THE PHILO MOD

WATCH HOW I TOTALLY DESTROY ZHUKOV LATER WITH MY ARGUMENTS WITH A COMPLETE LACK OF HUMOR
May 20th, 2011 03:09 PM
Tadao I regret nothing!
May 20th, 2011 03:04 PM
Chojin k that's about enough of that

no more philo modz
May 20th, 2011 01:09 PM
Zhukov I'm pro gay prison sex.
May 20th, 2011 01:00 PM
WhiteRat
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Leader View Post
I for one would rather be able to see the men who rape me in the shower daily, thank you very much.
Not seeing them is part of the fun!
May 20th, 2011 12:23 PM
Tadao Beats not seeing the man who just stole your beggars bowl outside in the hot sun.
May 20th, 2011 12:21 PM
The Leader I for one would rather be able to see the men who rape me in the shower daily, thank you very much.
May 20th, 2011 11:38 AM
Tadao Good thing we all don't have to do what you want then.
May 20th, 2011 11:34 AM
Zhukov
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadao View Post
So you would rather have your eyes burned out with acid than go to prison?
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying, well done.
May 20th, 2011 11:20 AM
Tadao So you would rather have your eyes burned out with acid than go to prison? I'm not basing this on revenge or whatever, I'm basing it on crime prevention. I'm sure Iran can afford to keep people in prison forever, the only problem with that is that lifers become kings in prison and they are very angry and very powerful.
May 20th, 2011 08:25 AM
Zhukov
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
Except that, like you mentioned, they have a culture of men owning women and being able to do whatever to them and get away with it. In case it's not clear what that's an exception to, it's an exception to: 1) they don't use rational thought (rationally, in their minds, they can do whatever they want to women.) 2) that it won't be a deterrent; in reality, now people will realize that women are protected by the law.
Well, we're getting into Iran specific territory now, which is ok I suppose. I think that people would only see it as a government initiative to protect women's rights if it was a particular law against hurting women - which it isn't. It's a law based around revenge, and those laws usually turn against the benefit of the woman in most circumstances anyway (or at least the circumstances that are piped into my western TV box). Still, if it were the case, and it was showing Iranian chauvinists that women are now protected by the law, then a prison sentence could do that too.

Quote:
By the same argument you could say that, when you lock people up in prison, society learns how to deal with its problems by kidnapping, taking away rights and freedoms, and ignoring problems.
Besides, locking somebody up in prison for life is as much/more heinous than just executing them humanely.
That could be true, but prison time and killing are two vastly different things in the eyes of most people. Children know that prison is where you go if you are bad, and killing is wrong. Plus, it's like it's the best we can do - I'm not saying that prison time is the solution to humanity's problems, and I will say that I can't think up anything better.

Quote:
And again, it doesn't keep the violence from circulating in society: 1) they can get out of prison.
2) violence still circulates in the prisons; people who are in those prisons for non-murder related convictions will get out, after having been exposed to that violent atmosphere (which, according to your argument will have some kind of an effect on that person); those peopel will then get out and circulate further violence in society (because they were not in their for murder). Plus prison employees will be exposed to it, which again, by your argument, will have some kind of affect on them, and they will be circulating around in society.

also the atmosphere of violence within a prison has to be far worse than in actual society. So decent people could easily be totally corrupted by it.
Yeah, I concede that killing someone certainly stops THAT person from ever doing anything bad (or good) ever again, and while time in prison is most definitely a bad influence on otherwise petty criminals who are reasonably well adjusted, I think that's more of an argument against current prison systems, and placing high risk prisoners amongst low risk, rather than an argument about cruel and unusual punishment - or the lack of it.

Quote:
You know I will just ask you: What is the point of keeping somebody alive who you don't want to/cant have anything to do with society? that's like saying you shouldn't pull the plug on terry shiavo because it creates a society thats solves problems with violence
It's usually a good indication of how well a society is progressing by looking at how they treat the lowest echelons of said society. Whether they be the disabled, unemployed, the elderly or prisoners or others. That's a point to think about by not my argument. I also don't want to go down the "if we kill them then we become them" road too much, although it's certainly another fair call, to an extent, I think.

Both points lead into what I had said before that you do what is best for society - and I am thinking here in the long run, and you can call that wrong if you like - but the elimination of high level criminals creates a culture of violence (which isn't comparable to prison time, or euthanasia) which becomes so much the norm in society that people might not even think about it. Obviously executing prisoners isn't the sole perp here, nor the biggest. I just think it's one of the reasons.

I don't think locking people up is hiding a problem, quite the opposite. In an ideal prison (which doesn't exist, but there are certainly model prisons out there that aim for such ideals) it wouldn't be about locking people up to keep them away - it would be about locking them up to reform them. Call me a dreamer, whatever.


Quote:
It's not about living up to their values. It's about living up to your own values: treating other people with respect and decency. In this case, it just happens to mean blinding someone with acid.
Well that sounds about right anyway. My arguments lead to a lot of ifs and buts. If the prison was better.... if people were more forgiving... This man could get acid into his eyes and it would have little negative effect on Iranian people, and it would be fair as well - eye for an eye. I am still against it though because I think him NOT getting this punishment, or anyone in the future getting this punishment, would have a slight positive effect.

Quote:
oh yea and why should people pay to keep other worthless fuckers alive who will never contribute anything to society... oh wait never mind you're a communist. ;/
But if you're a communist and doing things for the common good maybe you should just execute the fuck out of them to save money and such.
The obvious and cliche answer is you keep them in prison to build your railways and to dig quarries, or if in the USA to be 50% of your manufacturing base. The correct answer is that in a communist world there wouldn't be any money to waste on them, and they would most likely not have any harsh punishments.

While people being in prison in the US is big business, and them making flak jackets and electric kettles for 25c an hour is the reason they are currently not just being executed, my statements about treating people decently for the betterment of mankind blah blah blah is the reason they SHOULDN'T just execute the motherfuckers.

I understand if you don't want to read or reply to all that. Sorry.
May 19th, 2011 05:38 AM
kahljorn oh yea and why should people pay to keep other worthless fuckers alive who will never contribute anything to society... oh wait never mind you're a communist. ;/
But if you're a communist and doing things for the common good maybe you should just execute the fuck out of them to save money and such.
May 18th, 2011 07:22 PM
kahljorn
Quote:
I'd see an acid blinding sentence to be a deterrent for, say, a theft crime, or something akin to that. I don't think a potential murderer or acid blinder would be doing much rational thought before their crime, since even a life term in prison should be enough to turn your average sensible person away from such things. I guess there are going to be exceptions, obviously.
Except that, like you mentioned, they have a culture of men owning women and being able to do whatever to them and get away with it. In case it's not clear what that's an exception to, it's an exception to: 1) they don't use rational thought (rationally, in their minds, they can do whatever they want to women.) 2) that it won't be a deterrent; in reality, now people will realize that women are protected by the law.

Quote:
I'm looking at it from a perspective of how it affects society. It stops circulating violence if you kill the violent - but only the ones you kill. The rest of society just learns to deal with it's problems violently.
By the same argument you could say that, when you lock people up in prison, society learns how to deal with its problems by kidnapping, taking away rights and freedoms, and ignoring problems.
Besides, locking somebody up in prison for life is as much/more heinous than just executing them humanely.

And again, it doesn't keep the violence from circulating in society: 1) they can get out of prison.
2) violence still circulates in the prisons; people who are in those prisons for non-murder related convictions will get out, after having been exposed to that violent atmosphere (which, according to your argument will have some kind of an effect on that person); those peopel will then get out and circulate further violence in society (because they were not in their for murder). Plus prison employees will be exposed to it, which again, by your argument, will have some kind of affect on them, and they will be circulating around in society.

also the atmosphere of violence within a prison has to be far worse than in actual society. So decent people could easily be totally corrupted by it.

You know I will just ask you: What is the point of keeping somebody alive who you don't want to/cant have anything to do with society? that's like saying you shouldn't pull the plug on terry shiavo because it creates a society thats solves problems with violence

Quote:
But I think that we as a society, and Iran as a society, shouldn't be living up to such a person's values.
It's not about living up to their values. It's about living up to your own values: treating other people with respect and decency. In this case, it just happens to mean blinding someone with acid.
May 18th, 2011 08:03 AM
Zhukov I'd see an acid blinding sentence to be a deterrent for, say, a theft crime, or something akin to that. I don't think a potential murderer or acid blinder would be doing much rational thought before their crime, since even a life term in prison should be enough to turn your average sensible person away from such things. I guess there are going to be exceptions, obviously.

Anyway, this guy still did his crime, even with the punishment being known to him. It's not like Iranians are at all surprised when this stuff happens; it's third page news stuff. If it stops ONE person from doing it, then I guess it is successful in that regard, but I think the alternative might work better - we might not ever find out though.


As for my sense of justice, well, it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I generally would like people to aim for a large serving of what's best for society, a side of decency and progressive morals, a splash of deterrent, and a dash of revenge.

The world's not perfect, but we should at least aim in the general direction, I think.
May 18th, 2011 07:00 AM
Dimnos First off I would like to say I think blinding is cruel and unusual. Im all for locking real criminals up while reserving the right to kill the truly deserving. (Capital punishment has its own thread and if you want to talk about that go there.)

As far as punishments being a deterrent of crime thought... I think burning his eyes with acid does more to deter future acid attacks than throwing him in prison. How does it not? If so much as one person thinks "Oh damn. I dont my eyes burned out with acid, I better not do that." Then it has accomplished its goal. You could say Throwing him in prison will have the same effect from a more peaceful resolution but how many people will think "Whats the worst that will happen? They throw me in jail?". Also consider how much violence will spread in prison because of that guy. I dont know what the Iranian prison system is like, this conversation is kind of in general terms anyway, but how many fights will he get into with other prisoners? Or with the guards?
Its not exactly fair to compare any other country to Americas prison system, that needs to be drastically changed, but it usually produces a more violent criminal more often than it releases a rehabilitated one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
I don't think justice is about fairness, and I don't think it should be... but if it were about fairness, then yes, the guy would have a bucket of acid splashed in his face.
Just out of curiosity, what is justive about to you Z? Im not trying to undermine your arguments with this or anything, I honestly want to know. If justice isnt about fairness then what is it about?
May 17th, 2011 12:18 PM
Zhukov I'm the only one who didn't want Tadao as a mod, I'm just a jealous fag. Sorry guys.

Kahl, I can see what you are saying. Treat others how you want to be treated after all. This guy goes acid, so by his own sense of justice he should get acid - that's what is fair, and that is what his own values live up to.

But I think that we as a society, and Iran as a society, shouldn't be living up to such a person's values. You guys see this from a one person point of view, as in, make him blind and it stops him attacking again, execute the violent criminals and it stops their violent crime, treat criminals how they treat their victims because that's what they deserve.

I'm looking at it from a perspective of how it affects society. It stops circulating violence if you kill the violent - but only the ones you kill. The rest of society just learns to deal with it's problems violently.

The acid attack problem in Iran is not caused by their justice system though; it's caused by generations of looking down on women as being owned by men. As well as that I don't think their eye for an eye system is helping to change the country into a more open and tolerant one.

In all honesty, if the report was that the woman tracked her attacker down and threw a bucket of acid in his face, I would probably be less disdainful than an organised effort by the government to do it. Still, I'd be somewhat disdainful, but dude got what he deserved.
May 17th, 2011 10:49 AM
Tadao They also complain a lot about conspiracies and people being unfair to them. You'll fit right in Z-Man.
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