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Jul 18th, 2005 01:25 AM
FurankuS Wait, so you're saying he DIDN'T do it?

But, seriously. Dead people. That blows.
Jul 13th, 2005 01:45 AM
Emu yeah, it's a wonder why a book that takes place in England would use English landmarks
Jul 13th, 2005 01:00 AM
FurankuS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant10708
0856 21 people die in a blast on a train between Russell Square and King's Cross stations
OMG VOLDEMORT
Jul 12th, 2005 08:42 PM
KevinTheOmnivore No, if you read the entire article, it's pretty much just a polemic against Blair and the war in Iraq. He starts off in a real classy fashion, invoking all of the innocents who get killed and kidnapped in Iraq every day.

But now it matters to Brits, because it happened to them, and blah blah blah......
Jul 12th, 2005 08:37 PM
El Blanco Yes, because al Queda hasn't been linked to other attacks prior to March 2003.

Or is he pissed because it was finally a bunch of white English people getting blown up?
Jul 12th, 2005 08:20 PM
KevinTheOmnivore And the most ridiculous quote of the day on the London bombings, by Phillip Adams of The Australian:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...E12272,00.html

"Unlike those humdrum bombings in Baghdad, the slaughter in London was big news. And let's be clear about it: the people who died in the subway tunnels and on the bus were victims of the Iraq war. They died because of Blair's London Bridge, the one he built from the Thames to the Euphrates.

Had he not misled his nation into that murderous folly of an invasion, the people would have walked off the trains instead of being carried off on stretchers. Or had their body parts collected in bags."

Jul 10th, 2005 10:10 PM
KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dole
The most frightening aspect to me about attacks like these is how easy they are to carry out, and how impossible they are to protect against. 'Al-Queada' is not some organised, pyramid shaped hierarchy that can be stopped by taking out its leaders - if Bin Laden was shot dead tomorrow, none of this would stop. Rather, its god-knows-how-many individual cells, that are probably for the most part self financing and autonomous. They get inspiration from people like Bin-laden and other hate-spouting fanatics, but there is no clear chain of command. If they find and prosecute all the people involved with yesterday, its not going to stop the 'terrorist threat'. Anyone can make a crude homemade bomb, walk into any crowded public place and do something similar. How the fuck do you prevent something like that?? And the fact that these people believe that doing such an act will propel them into heaven...they HOPE to die doing it!! Thats a fucking weapon of mass destruction right there. Going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan won't stop people like this. Tougher immigration policies won't stop it. What the fuck do we do?
I totally feel you on this one Dole, because I've been asking myself the same question as of late, coming to basically the same helpless answers you've arrived at. This sort of helpless feeling of fear and vulnerability, coupled with the psychology of those who wish to destroy us, basically accounts for my recent turn towards the "neo-conish" regarding the war on terrorism.

Certainly, simply bombing the bad countries and hoping that ends terrorism is a bad idea. But there IS some validity to the Bush/Blair approach on this. We don't need to debate Iraq, cuz I disagreed with that war, but their idea of fighting terrorism by preventing state sponsorship of it seems like a good idea. Obviously, you're right. You can't make a radical muslim like you, you can't apologize enough to them for whatever it is you've presumably done wrong, and you can't always stop someone from constructing a crude bomb and going on a subway train.

You're also right about its decentralized nature. Getting Bin Laden isn't necessarily the point. However, I read an interesting piece in the Sunday NY Times today about the dynamic of the Islamic community in London, for example. There seems to be certain communities (one right by one of the bombings?) which represent what's very positive about Islam, whereas the British government seems to be very unwilling to even take very small measures against the kind of hateful, radical financing and organizing that has gone on in in other, more militant London communities. I read that a bill is sitting in parliament which would allow the govt. to place suspected terrorists under house arrest, but its lack of popularity may kill it. I think you're right that we can't absolutely prevent these tragedies, but can't we take baby steps to make sure that our own liberal policies aren't being abused by people who would like to destroy them and what they stand for....?

Quote:
'The war on terror' has never been more of a rather sick joke than it is at the moment - we are not winning it - I don't think we are even fighting it. They don't have a fucking clue.
Yet we must continue fighting, because the alternative is unthinkable. The reason these groups have been able to grow and slip in amongst us is due to our apathy, primarily. There's no cultural debate with this enemy-- This isn't, IMO, about Democrats vs. Republicans or Labor vs. Conservatives (or tories? whatever). This is about pluralistic society vs. regressive society. This is about democracy and religios freedom, vs. theocratic rule and persecution. I think internal debates about taxes and gay marriage and education are all great, but this shouldn't be a partisan issue, IMO. We need to be strong, we need to be firm, and we need to stop those who would kill civilians because they disagree with who they are. Whatever way necessary, I think.
Jul 10th, 2005 02:56 AM
Ant10708 LONDON (Reuters) - Police evacuated thousands of people and sealed off the center of Britain's second city Birmingham on Saturday night in the biggest security alert since four bombs exploded in London killing more than 50 people.

Acting in response to intelligence of a threat, they cleared the city's entertainment and Chinatown districts of some 30,000 people and carried out a controlled explosion on a bus.

But they stressed the security alert was not connected to last Thursday's bomb attacks in London.

Pubs and restaurants were shut, and hotels evacuated as the huge operation swung into action in Birmingham. Police blocked all roads into the city center while helicopters flew overhead and ambulances were positioned in the area around the central Broad Street area.

West Midlands Police Assistant Chief Constable Stuart Hyde told reporters the action was proportionate to the information received but declined to elaborate.

It was among several security scares in Britain on Saturday in the wake of the London attacks. Police have warned the bombers may still be at large and could strike again.

Earlier, they revealed that the three bombs that ripped through London underground trains went off almost simultaneously, making it more likely they were detonated by timers rather than suicide bombers.

A fourth bomb that blew up a bus almost an hour later was probably left in a bag and not triggered by a suicide bomber, they added.

Investigators struggled in extreme heat to retrieve bodies still trapped underground after the attacks, while anxious relatives frantically looked for loved ones missing since the rush-hour blasts on Thursday morning.

Police said the process of recovering bodies could continue for days in a hot, narrow and rat-infested tunnel deep below ground at King's Cross station.

DEADLIEST ATTACK

The government said people across Britain would be asked to observe two minutes' silence at noon on Thursday.

Police, who have made no arrests, said they were looking for no specific individuals and that the bombs were made of high explosive, not home-made materials.

Three Islamist groups have claimed responsibility for the blasts, which government ministers said bore the hallmarks of the Islamic militant al Qaeda network which was behind the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

"All three bombs on the London Underground system actually exploded within seconds of each other at around 8:50 in the morning," Scotland Yard Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick told a news conference on Saturday.

He said the fact that the bombs went off within 50 seconds of each other suggested they were set off by timers rather than detonated manually, although police did not rule that out.

Police previously believed the three blasts were spread over nearly half an hour, but revised their information in the light of new technical data and witness statements, he said.

ODD ONE OUT

The fourth bomb exploded on a bus near Euston railway station at 9:47 a.m.

"The most logical explanation is that one of the terrorists was unable to board an underground train -- probably because of the rapid closure of the system -- and ended up with a primed bomb and no target," said Dominic Armstrong, head of research and intelligence at security group Aegis Defense Services.

"In the circumstances, it seems understandable that he should seek another similar target quickly."

Police say there could be more attacks and security experts suggest would-be attackers could opt to kill themselves and take as many victims with them as possible if confronted.

http://reuters.excite.com//article/2...RITAIN-DC.html
Jul 9th, 2005 07:10 PM
Ant10708
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellychaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant10708
I didn't even come up with the diversion idea. But aye aye. You sure have some strong opinions for someone who admits to knowing nothing.
What I do have is a basic respect for human life that doesn't allow me to flippantly discuss trajedy as if I were crunching numbers. :rumsfeld

I could hardly feign empathy without feeling somewhat false about it. The truth is that I've never been close to a trajedy of this magnitude. In the absence of knowledge, sympathy is the best I can offer. I'll take humanity over grasping after internet conspiracy theories.
Well I'm a NYer and I experienced 9/11 and I was one of the only ones who actually expressed sympathy in the first page of this thread. I wasn't making mock pictures to make light of the situation. Have you ever said this same shit to Ranxxer? I made reference to a post on a theory someone just mentioned. I don't deny evidence with a 'red pill/blue pill' argument. Or think there is a big government coverup on everything.

In my first post of this thread: 'I hope everyone here hasn't lost anyone.' And most people here fucking hate me. It's after all the initial jokes and mocking of american reaction over 9/11. But you were probaly to outraged over my treatment of people as inanimate chess pieces to notice any of that.
Jul 9th, 2005 06:48 PM
Dole damn..was going to print the front cover of the sun today as it was amazingly restrained and measured...but it wouldnt work.
Jul 9th, 2005 12:52 PM
kellychaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant10708
I didn't even come up with the diversion idea. But aye aye. You sure have some strong opinions for someone who admits to knowing nothing.
What I do have is a basic respect for human life that doesn't allow me to flippantly discuss trajedy as if I were crunching numbers. :rumsfeld

I could hardly feign empathy without feeling somewhat false about it. The truth is that I've never been close to a trajedy of this magnitude. In the absence of knowledge, sympathy is the best I can offer. I'll take humanity over grasping after internet conspiracy theories.
Jul 9th, 2005 07:46 AM
Carnivore
Ending terrorism

Undoubtedly, the best way to end terrorism is to end whatever drives people to commit acts of terror. Identifying that cause is incredibly difficult. Is it fundamentalism? Is it poverty and oppression? Is it even possible to remove the underlying problems without creating new ones? Will a free Palestine end terror attacks against Israel, or will there still be those extermists who will not be happy until there is no Israel at all?

And what to do in the meantime? Just try to be vigilant and hope for the best or risk pissing off even more people to stop the ones that are already committed to terrorism? It really is a no-win situation when looking for an immediate fix.

My personal belief is that fundamentalism in any religion is dangerous. There has to be a live-and-let-live philosophy. It's alright to think someone else is wrong about something, but it's not alright to forcefully remedy that yourself. Some Muslims may think we're infidels, but they need to let Allah sort us out when we're dead from natural causes. Bombing commuters will only make people like Bush more willing to risk hurting innocents to get the bad guys and make normally moderate people like me more willing to give him that leeway.
Jul 8th, 2005 05:55 PM
Abcdxxxx Well, there's a split in Israel's phillosophy for handling terrorism, which can explain some of their mixed results. With world scrutiny on them to act divinely humane in their approach, they've had to back away from taking a strong arm stance. If you go through a timeline of terrorism the only success preventing this activity is through a firm hand. Terror activity in the region only increased after there were gestures that these people had legit beefs that should be discussed at a bargaining table. Israel has discovered you really can't take away their motivation for doing it. Poverty and class structure just can't be attributed as the sole motivation (the suicide bomber can always be traced to someone with money, with little regard for the working class, or the value of a human life).

So you can battle terrorism with compassion and try to "kill them with kindness", and understanding.... or you can be the Alpha dog, and keep yourself braced at all times so a mysterious backpack left absent on street corner becomes an immediate emergency. Israel's entire lifestyle revolves around these satety concerns. Having a bag searched when you go to the movies was standard back in the 70's for example. The Islamic fundamentalist world , and Arab League no longer fear people who want to be liked, and understood as compassionate people, now that they've learned how to manipulate the system.

Keep in mind this all happened only a couple months after Blair hosted a conference titled 'London supporting the Palestinian Authority", and Livingstone ranted about Israel's "war crimes". Rowan Williams anounced a church boycott of Israel only two days ago. There have also been low level gestures to recognize Hamas again. Oh, and interestingly enough, the IRA trained the PLO on how to do these types of bombings.
Jul 8th, 2005 05:34 PM
Ant10708
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellychaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant10708
9/11 was much more devasting then today's London explosions. So 40 + people getting killed could be a diversion for a much more deadly attack in the near future.
Why do the armchair quarterbacks and wordly pontificators feel the need to compare testicle sizes in this respect? The point is that they were ABLE to be attacked even if NO ONE was killed. The point is the loss of security they feel even in a city that is more terrorist-proof than most around the globe yet they are still vulnerable. The point is that people like you continue to conjecture like those involved are inanimate chess pieces with little or no true knowledge of the subject or the environment being discussed. At least I am willing to admit I know nothing and await the opinions of those that may.
I didn't even come up with the diversion idea. But aye aye. You sure have some strong opinions for someone who admits to knowing nothing.

If NO ONE was killed(or hurt seriously) I really doubt they'd feel that threatened. The ETA does non lethal bombings all the time in Spain and I don't see the Spanish giving into their demands like they gave into al-quada after Madrird.
Jul 8th, 2005 05:31 PM
kellychaos Even if this were so, I would expect that both Scotland Yard and the Israeli Embassy get threatening calls daily. The question is in validating the authenticity.
Jul 8th, 2005 05:27 PM
kellychaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant10708
9/11 was much more devasting then today's London explosions. So 40 + people getting killed could be a diversion for a much more deadly attack in the near future.
Why do the armchair quarterbacks and wordly pontificators feel the need to compare testicle sizes in this respect? The point is that they were ABLE to be attacked even if NO ONE was killed. The point is the loss of security they feel even in a city that is more terrorist-proof than most around the globe yet they are still vulnerable. The point is that people like you continue to conjecture like those involved are inanimate chess pieces while, at the same time, having little or no true knowledge of the subject or the environment being discussed. At least I am willing to admit I know nothing and await the opinions of those that may.
Jul 8th, 2005 02:51 PM
sloth It's possible your sister knows the guy I was talking about, Dole. He's a barrister's clerk, so he gets to know a few people in the business. He heard the explosion go off round the corner - he got the rest of the day off so he watched the police handle the bus wreckage. I think pretty much everyone knows someone affected by it in one way or another. Shit, wasn't more than a few days ago I was at Aldgate East myself. Sorry to hear your sister had to go through all of that though.
Jul 8th, 2005 02:08 PM
GAsux
Models

No government agency/intelligence orgainization has more experience with counter-terrorism than Israel. And their policies have proven to be marginally effective at best. Even with checkpoints, seraching individuals, etc, suicide bombers still manage to find their mark. Its like common crime, you can't defeat by countermeasures.

The only way it will ever stop will be to take away the motivation for doing it in the first place.
Jul 8th, 2005 12:12 PM
McClain Very true, Dole. It's been said that the only real way to fight terrorism is to remove the incentive from the act. But as long as we have free press there will be coverage and the terrorists achieve their immediate goal. It will be on the news. People will react. It's an anomalous circle of craven humanity.
Jul 8th, 2005 09:36 AM
Carnivore Cherry and Dole, I'll be over on the next available flight... just as soon as I find someone to pay my mortgage and other bills in my absence :/

In all seriousness, much relief to know you and your families and friends were unharmed. You know we're all with you on this side of the pond. You whooped the Germans twice and have dealt with terrorism from the IRA all those years, so I have no doubt as to the inevitable conclusion of the current conflict.
Jul 8th, 2005 07:24 AM
Dole So it would seem it was a suicide bomber on the bus. Had to be really..horrible. Its actually the bus my sis normally gets, but she was already at work. She was a barrister in a court case while all this was going on - an alert went off in the court, and they were all told to stay in court and carry on - no-one would tell them what had happened, only that it was a 'red alert'. The Judge asked to be told and the security people at the court said they weren't allowed to say?! One of the barristers sneaked out and found out what was going on, but they still all had to sit there and go through the motions for 3 hours until lunchtime! All of the barristers, my sis included had friends/partners/colleagues working in the city, so it was quite an unpleasant 3 hours while they waited to get out and check everyone was ok. Obviously a lot of people went through a hell of a lot worse yesterday, but still not very nice. Especially personally as it meant I couldnt get in touch with her to check she was ok.

The most frightening aspect to me about attacks like these is how easy they are to carry out, and how impossible they are to protect against. 'Al-Queada' is not some organised, pyramid shaped hierarchy that can be stopped by taking out its leaders - if Bin Laden was shot dead tomorrow, none of this would stop. Rather, its god-knows-how-many individual cells, that are probably for the most part self financing and autonomous. They get inspiration from people like Bin-laden and other hate-spouting fanatics, but there is no clear chain of command. If they find and prosecute all the people involved with yesterday, its not going to stop the 'terrorist threat'. Anyone can make a crude homemade bomb, walk into any crowded public place and do something similar. How the fuck do you prevent something like that?? And the fact that these people believe that doing such an act will propel them into heaven...they HOPE to die doing it!! Thats a fucking weapon of mass destruction right there. Going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan won't stop people like this. Tougher immigration policies won't stop it. What the fuck do we do?
I saw an interesting thing on the news late last night saying how the only way the intelligence services can hope to deal with this problem is to completely change the way they work - they just aren't equipped to deal with this kind of threat. They need to operate in a far more similar way to the terrorists themselves to be able to fight them.

'The war on terror' has never been more of a rather sick joke than it is at the moment - we are not winning it - I don't think we are even fighting it. They don't have a fucking clue.
Jul 8th, 2005 02:36 AM
El Blanco
Quote:
Originally Posted by McClain
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
It doesn't take a great deal of advanced intel to figure out that subway stations get crowded during the morning rush. Put together a crude explosive with common materials, drop it off at the station early in the morning with a timer, drop one off on the bus set to go off after the first couple go off (catches the people fleeing the subway station).

Look at what a couple of rednoecks in the backwoods like McVeigh and Nichols pulled off with a U-Haul truck, fertilizer and blasting caps.
Dude what are you talking about?
I was refering to GAsux' comment about how it had to be a long term, highly coordinated project.

I used McVeigh and Nichols bomb the federal building in Oklahoma City as an example.
Jul 7th, 2005 11:38 PM
ziggytrix I bet round trip airfare from DFW to LHR is dirt cheap right now. If we weren't swamped at work, I'd get my passport and go on holiday in London in a heartbeat. I've always wanted to.
Jul 7th, 2005 11:10 PM
Ant10708 Statement claiming London attacks
The BBC has located an Islamist website that has published a 200-word statement issued by an organisation saying it carried out the London bombings.

The organisation calls itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda [literally the base] of Jihad Organisation in Europe.

The group is previously unknown.

The website has previously carried statements purporting to be from al-Qaeda. It is not possible to verify such claims published on the web.

This is the full text of the statement.

In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and undaunted fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

Nation of Islam and Arab nation: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge against the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.

We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

God says: "You who believe: If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."
Jul 7th, 2005 10:41 PM
GAsux Abu Hamza might not be a religious or spiritual leader in a sense that perhaps his ideology is not sanctioned by Allah, but he's certainly influencial and has been for quiet some time. As I alluded to earlier, the fact that Hamza even has a following in a place as "modern" as London is telling. The jihadists are not all backwards simple desert nomads. bin Laden's message clearly is reaching virtually every portion of society around the world and has been for a decade now.

Kevin,
I think it would be super if ALL crazy terrorist guys had eye patches and hook hands. Bring back the pirates I say.
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