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| Nov 2nd, 2006 10:12 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
Russo; I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you, I just missed that post. If I can figure out a short way to answer your question, I will, but that sounds like a booklength topic or a doctoral thesis. Every party you mentioned was a player, and it's a covoluted mess. I don't think we'd be where we are without all of them pulling in the same direction, which is curious in and of itself. I think W would have tried for a war in Iraq without Bin Laden. I think there's sufficient evidence to make that argument. But I don't think he'd have got it. |
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| Nov 2nd, 2006 10:09 AM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
I'm not sure what your point is, but uh, no. If you're implication is that I think Tillman is too stupid or whatever to write this you're wrong. My point was that it reads like a speechy McCopywriter kind of piece. It reads like something intended to get folks all hot and bothered so that they reach for their check books. |
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| Nov 2nd, 2006 09:33 AM | ||||
| McClain |
Quote:
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| Oct 23rd, 2006 01:03 PM | ||||
| kahljorn |
"Unfortunately, I think lots of soldiers join the army thinking thir service to their country is more meaningful, and find their lives being exteniguished in for what seems to many to be meaningless, pointless, or in some cases even flatly wrong, it embitters them." Well, I guess they should use their brains before they decide what to do. I like how samurai's viewed war, to an extent. |
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| Oct 23rd, 2006 12:14 PM | ||||
| Archduke Tips |
Re: Kevin Tillman Quote:
I'd be curious to hear your opinion on the role of each player in the road to the war in Iraq. Who do you think the players are? (ex: American People, Gov't, Osama) And what do you think their roles were? |
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| Oct 23rd, 2006 09:12 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
I happily plead guilty to be being cranky. Absolutely. Does this mean you agree you are vapid? Actually, I think 'tepid' is what I said, as in luke warm, but vapid is okay too, and I might have said it. And Kahl, of course every soldier accepts that they are liable to die. Perhaps soldiers should acccept that their lives are liable to be thrown away for political expediency or because suits that never served don't want to admit failure. Unfortunately, I think lots of soldiers join the army thinking thir service to their country is more meaningful, and find their lives being exteniguished in for what seems to many to be meaningless, pointless, or in some cases even flatly wrong, it embitters them. |
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| Oct 22nd, 2006 07:12 PM | ||||
| Ant10708 |
Quote:
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| Oct 21st, 2006 09:49 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
My theory is, honestly, a cynical one. My guess is that he didn't write this, although I'm sure you can attribute every word to him in meaning. My guess is it was crafted and sassed up by someone else, and maybe this copy has or will see its way into some kind of mail piece or e-mail blast. Not certain, but a guess. That doesn't necessarily make him wrong, but the whole thing has an agenda sent to it. Quote:
Kevin Tillman's service, as you've pointed out, has every damn right to say precisely what he wants. He maybe should've focused a piece on that, but this reminds me a little bit too much of Cindy Sheehan. Quote:
I was calling YOU pouty, but maybe cranky would be better. I'm vapid and you're cranky. Neat. I take war pretty seriously, I also take our enemies pretty seriously. I think they're more serious than merely a criminal matter, and I think Pat Tillman knew that as well. He walked awat from a very comfortable life to surrender his own life. The circumstances of his death are tragic, but it doesn't dismiss the value of his service. It would be great to know what he really thinks about the war to date, but unfortunately we can't. |
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| Oct 21st, 2006 11:45 AM | ||||
| kahljorn |
"I think soldiers might be angry and disapointed if they feel their fellow soldiers lives are being thrown way" that would be hilarious coming from a soldier. if you join the army you should expect that you're going to die. The war against iraq has how many casualties anyway? The whole shock and awe thing... they weren't being "Wasteful" with lives. the purpose of the soldier is to die and kill, but mostly die. |
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| Oct 21st, 2006 09:10 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
I think more than te friendly fire incident, he might be a little angry about the way he and his family wee lied to about the cause of death, how initially his death was used as a propoganda tool, and how even now, as far as I know, no one has been held responsible for the slowly unravelling series of lies they've been told. In addition, Kevin Tillman served in Iraq after Afghanistan along with lots of other soldiers who got dragged out of Afghanistan to fight in an unrelated war, and that may have a great deal to do with why Afghanistan is still an ongoing war and Osama is still at large That might make you angry if your brother died fighting a war that had a point. I think I'm more unhinged than he is in the pouty sense, since I've lost nothing directly. All my losses are theoretical at this pint, where as Tillman is out one brother and has far more reason to believe his country isn't what he believed it was. I think soldiers might be angry and disapointed if they feel their fellow soldiers lives are being thrown way. And 'pouty', Kev? Like your 'not %100 behind' and 'wouldn't shed a tear' I find your response to current events tepid. Geat war for civilization or pointless excercise, either way a lot of people are dying. I'm not sure 'pouty' is a very good word to use in ths situation. It's like calling the Geneva conventions 'quaint'. |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 07:23 PM | ||||
| kahljorn |
I like how if you goto the webpage and read people's comments everyone talks about how they cried. IM SORRY ABOUT PAT TELL YOUR FAMILY FOR ME |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 04:01 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
Quote:
Is Bush to blame for the friendly fire that killed his brother, too? Doesn't that happen in all wars? Is he entitled to be angry? Sure. His brother is dead. And I don't think he invalidates his service in any way by speaking out. But speaking out doesn't necessarily mean he really has anything to say. |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 03:49 PM | ||||
| Preechr | They got tubes there, too, buddy! | |||
| Oct 20th, 2006 03:09 PM | ||||
| mburbank | You know, when you light out for the territories, it's going to be more boring here. you pro torture bastard. | |||
| Oct 20th, 2006 02:15 PM | ||||
| Preechr |
See, that's why I don't link to things. As soon as I mention a webpage, so many people flock to it that their servers get overwhelmed. Sorry, Truthdig... |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 12:40 PM | ||||
| kahljorn |
i don't think he was being an unhinged hack or anything like that. He didn't seem like he was too crazy. I consider anything that's designed to directly appeal/have an emotional effect on a person as "Sensationalist". Whereas I'd consider the other side of the fence as "Informative"-- objective maybe? I mean, you can still have an emotional effect but it shouldn't be intended, because that is biased and purposeful. People get misled easily by their emotions-- not that I'm saying they are bad or anything. Sadly, what most people want is to follow their emotions, as they themselves are "Sensationalists". He points that out in the article himself, I think. Like i said i thought it was a pretty decent writing. *connection was refused preechr. |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 12:38 PM | ||||
| Preechr |
Quote:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...pats_birthday/ |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 12:03 PM | ||||
| mburbank |
No, I don't ever open direct mail, and since I told the Democratic National Committe to never ever call me or mail me ever again, I've recieved less mail from them. ( I'm in favor of a Democratci swep in Nov, but it's a lesser of two evils situation. A WAY lesser, but still evil enough) Pretty much the only direct mail come ons I get anymoe are from the National Organization for Women (which my daughters mock me about endlessly) and Robert Redord. I don't even get mail from the ACLU anymore. I found it on Truthout, but I don't know if he wrote if for them or not. Most of their stuff comes from the press, both articles and op eds, and they have a small contributing staff of their own (all reasonbly well known authors and journalists) every once and a while they throw in guest commentaries, which this may well be. I don't know if I agree t's sensationalist, as I think that speaks to not just inetnt, but veracity. It's certainly evocative. But I think you can give it the benefit of the doubt for the author believeing what's in it, unless it turns out to be a hoax. I don't think it's hard to imagine that the surviving Tillman brother might feel somewhat embittered about the sacrifices he's made. And he did wait until he was out of the army to be as candid as this. Would you say he was an unhinged hack in the Kiellor mode, or something else? |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 11:47 AM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Max, out of curiosity, was that in a fundraising letter, or maybe an e-mail, that you received? The reason I ask is that it reads like a direct mail piece, which would explain the tone kahl had mentioned. It has everything but the ask, even the way the sentences are structured. So, with that being said-- Yeah, it was well written. But it was pretty sensationalist, and I think going through his argument point-by-point would be pretty pointless. |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 11:46 AM | ||||
| kahljorn |
well it's kind of to be expected when you look at who it is that votes. I mean the people i meet in my day to day life and the stupid shit they do amazes me sometimes. When you start to think all the crazy jerks on the road and stupid people at work are the ones voting you realize why our system sucks it's own asshole. All these stupid people voting certainly aren't going to come together to do something worthwhile for everyone, the last time america came together we went to war with iraq. In that sense this article is unintentionally ironic. man not to throw this off topic but is california the only place that has absolutely no business ethic? Every person my girlfriend and I have worked for over the past few years has been a crazy cunt. Like this one lady who claimed she spied on my girlfriend talking to me at work for 45 minutes, and when my girlfriend pulled up the call history it was only like 7 minutes. and that was the management who was "spying" instead of working. now that's something to get riled up about!~ |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 11:35 AM | ||||
| mburbank | Oh, okay, now I get it. I wish I could say I thought you were wrong, but I once read the largest letter writting campaign in American hostory had to do with the brief removal of Brown M&M's from circulation. That may be an urban legend, but it has a certain amount of truth in it. | |||
| Oct 20th, 2006 11:28 AM | ||||
| kahljorn |
actually i thought the article was pretty decent even though i didn't like the fact that it's obviously sensationalist and designed to get people angry and motivated. i just thought the idea of americans uniting for some common justifiable goal would be a bit out there and impossible you know. "Surely you are not saying that the issues raised by Tillman are on a par with being upset about fast food prices going up, which is to say trivial?" no, just that the common american's are more interested with trivial issues than important ones... more or less. I don't know really i was just trying to say that if america united to acheive some goal they'd probably get distracted by the rising injustice of fastfood prices. |
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| Oct 20th, 2006 11:14 AM | ||||
| mburbank | See? Trivial. I don't think you should be so upset about it, Kal. AND I don't think saving with Geico can address any of Tillman's concerns. | |||
| Oct 20th, 2006 11:13 AM | ||||
| AChimp | The rising price of fast food can be offset by saving up to 15% on your auto insurance by switching to Geico. | |||
| Oct 20th, 2006 11:07 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
I have no idea what you meant after 'stupid american's unite', which I'll guess is your way of saying you thought the article was stupid. I don't suppose you'd care to say what you thought was stupid about it? Surely you are not saying that the issues raised by Tillman are on a par with being upset about fast food prices going up, which is to say trivial? |
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