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Jul 10th, 2006 12:49 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
KevinTheOmnivore |
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Iraq was not a friend, not a strategic ally, and had threatened military action aainst its neighbors. We deal with the Saudis b/c they are more willing to deal. Saddam had his chance, and declined. Quote:
That isn't republicanism, or democracy, or even populism. That's lunacy, and you can't govern that way. People get tired of war. they also get tired of it, because they have no personal investment in it. They see billions of dollars going to rebuild another nation, and yet these people are blowing up our men and women. I think we have electons, and elect a president in order to lead us in foreign affairs, not be bound to every whim and roadside bomb. They voted for the man, and this is how he chose to fight this war. They can change their minds again in the fall, and then again in 2008. We'll see. So tell me Max, either people are fickle about war, or they are terribly bi-polar (since a majority elected this man in the middle of the war). Which is it? And regarding the Bush hatred-- I think it plays a HUGE role in all of this. This country is terribly polarized, Max. I think Bush bears a good deal of the blame in all that, but I also think the far-left makes matters worse. The "netroots", the new influentials in the party, and the Deaniacs, are all intent on purging the party of anyone who even smiles in Bush's direction. I see it rather close at the DNC, and you can read it from the Daily Kos types. Quote:
I think the fundamental problem is that one group of people acknowledge that there most certainly is a pattern in all of this, and that there is a global fight between ways of life. Others seem to see it as all grand coinsidence, or worse, all the fault of the United States (and maybe Israel just or kicks). And just because they can't beat us in conventional warfare doesn't mean they can't hurt us, and it also doesn't mean they won't keep oppressing their own people. So we choose-- do we watch a secular Europe become more and more Islamic? Do we turn a blind eye to thriving radical movements on every continent, ignore their attemps to codify Islamic law around the globe? Do we isolate ourselvs and pretend that it all goes away if we leave Iraq, or if Israel withdraws from Gaza? |
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Jul 5th, 2006 02:54 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
mburbank |
Kev; I'll keep it short as we've been around this track a time or two by now. Believe it or not, I listen to what you say. I'm pretty sure you aren't an idiot, and I'm interested what an intelligent, well meaning sort makes of the current global situation. In some degree, I'm heartened by the idea that you see things as hopeful, because it offers the possability that I'm totally wrong in my 'toldyasoism'. In fact, the only area in which I am almost (almost, not totally) certain you are wrong is the idea that history will judge W kindly. I also challenge your assumption that in the absence of an aggressive USA, there would be no changes in any other countries. Statis is unnatural, change is law, and while I do not argue that we have major impact, we might not be the Prime Mover. Those caveats aside, respectfully, here's where you make me worry. You take all opinions which don't match yours, at very very least half of our country, and you ascribe it all to either the blindness of Bush hatred or the habitual weakness of Americans. I think a greater degree of doubt would serve you (and most people) well. I imagine that no matter what opinion you hold, you'll find that not everyone who disagrees with you is blind, or weak, or an idiot. I simply do not think that good can be squeezed out of so much killing. Far from 'itoldyasoism', I genuinely hope in the long term you are right and I am wrong. The killing has already happend and shpws no signs of stopping. It would seem to me a far better outcome if in the end it came to something than for me to be able to say 'I told you so.' |
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Jul 5th, 2006 10:34 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
mburbank | I'll take 'Death of a Thousand Cuts' for $500.00, Alex. That's $320.00 after taxes. | |||||||||||||||||||
Jul 5th, 2006 08:38 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Preechr | Government is above interpersonal law at best, at worst a criminal enterprise itself. Al Quaeda and the IRS are just means to an end. Who's to say which is better: Rule by Fear or the Death of a Thousand Cuts? | |||||||||||||||||||
Jul 3rd, 2006 08:06 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx | Shouldn't a state be accountable for sponsoring crime organizations? | |||||||||||||||||||
Jul 3rd, 2006 05:27 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Ant10708 | Who cares that the hijackers were mostly Saudis. That doesn't mean the country was complicit. Not that Iraq was either but we shouldn't attack Saudi Arabia because thats where the hijackers were born. | |||||||||||||||||||
Jul 3rd, 2006 12:15 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
mburbank | I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over your editting. | |||||||||||||||||||
Jul 3rd, 2006 11:22 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx | edit: nevermind. | |||||||||||||||||||
Jul 3rd, 2006 09:34 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
mburbank |
"There's a reason my posts are limited to certain subjects. You should try it! Look, talk about something you really know about. Talk from an informed opinion. Educate yourself. That way, this stuff isn't some abstract question akin to "what is art". That way you don't say stupid shit like "How can you seal off Iraq's borders? It's 2281miles of border" and expect an answer that's not patronizing." That would be a swell answer had my question been "Are you informed on the middle east?". It wasn't, though. My question was, what's your background. School? Proffession? Hobby? Past residence? I want to know what you've done in your life that makes you so certain about all all things middle easte4rn, and I'm being totally serious here, not flippant. There's nothing in life I feel as confident as you seem on this subject, and while I'm sure you'll see that as some sort of admission of failure or a carachter, you make me curious. -- Kevin, cannot read so much right now. One question. Do you think the family Bush and the family Saud are not a degree or two more emeshed than the family of any admnistration has eevr been before? And do you really see blowing the shit out of the country of origin of none of the hijackers as a motivator to the country that sent most of them? Cause I see it as kind of an indication that they get a free pass. "Don't you EVER mess with us again, or we'll... get... some other guy that... you had a beef with too. So watch it!" |
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Jul 2nd, 2006 02:01 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx |
Huh? Yeah so 18,000 poorly trained border guards still can't do the job which was accomplished by 600 of Saddam's loyalist. That's because only a couple hundred of our 18,000 had gone through training by mid-2004. I don't know what the current figure is. Irregardless, Saddam had his borders locked down. You haven't proven otherwise, or proven that a nation can not control a border. If he allowed corruption, it's because he allowed it. Iraq's borders were probably the most solid in the region. Even areas that were weaker, like the Kurd-Turk border, only increased in tension when the borders became vulnerable under occupation. For the last time, the percentage of foriegn fighters means little. Who trained them? Where do they take their cues from? Who arms them? Who finances them? Who and what are they fighting for? |
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Jul 1st, 2006 10:58 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
ziggytrix |
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Corruption seems to run rampant in dictatorships. I'm betting under Saddam, with the right money greasing the right palms, or telling the right lies to the the right people, smuggling would be ridiculously easy. Do you think Saddam knew about every single illicit deal going across his borders? Especially with seperate agencies for customs and for border police? I can't even conceive it, though I bet Saddam thought it was all under control, as long as the money kept coming in. It would seem to me, that what has happened is that our invasion has created new destinations for existing black markets. Now that Saddam isn't the number one buyer, we've got all these different actors. And it's certainly a lot more chaotic, but I just can't believe the border is actually more permeable under (however many there alredy were plus) 18,000 American/Iraqi guards than under 640 of Saddam's guards. That is what we're talking about here right? Sealing the border against smuggling of money and arms, right? I suppose that deserves some clarification. If we're talking about stopping fighters from crossing the border, then I would like to ask you one more time if you think the 5-10% figure is incorrect when talking about the foreign makeup of the insurgency? I've heard that figure several times, and have yet to hear it actively disputed, but then I'm not caiming to be an expert on the Mideast. |
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Jul 1st, 2006 08:45 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx |
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It's not unreasonable to expect allied states like Saudi Arabia to police their borders or at least assist with a solid plan - the truth is we didn't even have one, and that's the issue. We added 18,000 border guards in 2004, and the borders still aren't on lockdown. www.usip.org/library/oh/sops/iraq/sec/hines.pdf |
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Jul 1st, 2006 08:23 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
ziggytrix |
Since Saudi Arbia is officially our ally, we can just ignore the Saudi/Iraq border in terms of security? I don't think I can agree with that. Nor can I agree that the sort of border infiltration that terrorists attempt was wholly prevented under Saddam's regime. I am aware that since September 2004 the US in concert with Iraqi trainees have been working on border security (source). A full year later, Zarqawi loyalists took over Qaim (source). So again, I don't really agree with your implication that sealing Iraq's border is a simple task, but I do at least agree that it could have been worked on sooner. I just don't think it would have had as major an impact on the insurgency as you seem to, though I'm sure I could be wrong. Anyway, thank you for finally answering the question. |
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Jul 1st, 2006 04:51 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx |
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He had 240 border guard stations and 640 border guards. The Iran border was guarded on foot. They reported to several ministries. If you walked even near a mountain zone region like Sulayminah, you were in breach. The Iran-Iraq border is 800 miles. The Syrian border is about 376 miles. The other 4 countries Iraq shares a border with are participatory allies so that cuts your 2281 mile border equation in half. That's assuming the US had a plan for border security at all, and they didn't. Unlike our Southern Border, there are no cities right against the border. That comparison is retarded. |
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Jul 1st, 2006 02:44 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
KevinTheOmnivore |
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Also, this goes back to the previous point. Those weapons? They're going to get them. So would you rather we keep selling them and maintain that leverage, or do we curse them out and watch them walk? How "realpolitik" would that be, Mr. Kissinger? Quote:
I mean, this is a country that didn't officially ban SLAVERY until 1962. The mere fact that countries such as this one are even talking about such dramatic reforms is totally attributable to our pressure, primarily the invasion of Iraq. I'm amazed that you cant even see this, but then again, you've got those pesky Bush blinders. The more alarming thing about Saudi Arabia's continuing spread of hate speech is that there's a market for it. If muslims all around the world didn't already believe this shit, the Saudi text books wouldn't be as much of a problem. And we're not just talking about the poor, frustrated, and uneducated. These texts, often omitting Israel from their maps, are used in the West too. Hell, one of them is a short drive away from me in Alexandria. So once again, the problem isn't just corrupt regimes, or poverty, or whatever. There's a pervasive problem throughout Islam, and that is our enemy. Stopping states that finance it is crucial, but not the whole war. Quote:
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I opposed the invasion of Iraq. As I've said here numerous times, I'm more of a big stick, speak softly kind of guy. But we DID invade Iraq, and as abc has pointed out for you, the war on islamic terrorism is indeed now in Iraq. To abandon Iraq would be like handing a chaotic Afghanistan over tothe Taliban, or a chaotic Somalia over the muslim militias who want to stone rapists to death. Ifyou can't see the pattern, then you're not really paying attention. But you seem more intent on having a told ya so foreign policy. The tenets of Max Burbank's toldyasoism is that no foreign policy can proceed unless the president is pure like a little girl in her Communion day dress. If you invade a country, the president better be right about why he did it, otherwise you can't do anything else. You must remain paralyzed by the told ya so, or else you look like a hypocrite. to practice toldyasoism all you have to do is compare every American action to something Christians did in the 16th Century, mention that the Americans killed Native Americans and stuff. It has the pomposity of Kevinism, but without the citations. Quote:
Saddam was an enemy, and while you seem to think he was "contained", I think he was a monster whose people are better off without him and his murderous lot there. To say that there were ABSOLUTELY NO links to Al Qaeda and islamic extremism is intellectually dishonest. If nothing else, he was an opportunist. He encouraged terrorist acts against Israel, and wanted to use Islam as a means to control his populace. The guy thought he was friggin Saladin. There most certainly was contact between Al Qaeda agents and Iraqi Baathists in the late 90's, and Zarqawi himself managed to flow in and out of Iraq. Iraq was a weak spot, and we took it out. The Pentagon made some early mistakes that have continued to haunt our troops, but the toppling of Saddam has put every other nation in the Middle East on notice. Hell, why do you think Iran rushed their nuke program? They looked at N. Korea, they knew they were on our shit list, and realized that they wanted security. Iran doesn't want to suffer Iraq's fate. I think you will see some "realpolitik" in Iran, you will see a carrot and stick deal eventually worked out, and hopefully you'll ultimately see reform in Iran. Quote:
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North Korea's economy is totally relient upon foreign aid. The "slow, dogged" stuff isn't always effective, and doesn't necessarily stop countries from pursuing nuclear weapons if the technology is made available to them. Quote:
I feel I've gone to great lengths to provide evidence for you, both anecdotal and quantified, to show you this. You on the other hand have never done this. Tell me Max, if not directly linked to the actions of the United States, what is causing it all? Any thoughts? I mean, I know one key tenet of toldyasoism is to focus on what the other is supposedly doing wrong, rather than what could be done right, but please enlighten me. Quote:
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Presidents do unpopular things. Bush isn't setting any precedent here. But history doesn't judge a president or a policy on 1 week, 1 month, or even 1 year. IMO, we will look back on this presidency, taking into account all of its problems and mistakes, and they will be judged by Iraq. I am of the opinion that it will be a pleasant judgement, but that's just me. Quote:
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Apparently the only opinions worth listening to on Iraq are the ones that say everything is going wrong. "Told ya so!" Quote:
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And Max, if we dokeep at this war, and that STILL happens, I'll invite youto say "I told ya so!" Quote:
My point was that some nations haven't gotten on board with this war to the extent we have. I pity the small time Islamic thug who messes with Russia or China. They won't be getting Halal food and prayer time in those prisons. Heck, look at how France of all nations has clamped down on their extremists. My point was that Radical Islam wouldn't stand a chance if the sleeping giants in the East and Europe woke up. I think extremists counton the liberal guilt of the European nations, and it plays a partin fostering great degrees of intolerance in presumably liberal and free nations. Quote:
I think your point is to bait me, but whatever. If it came down to a draft, I most certainly would fight. However the best military in the world is made of voluntary citizens, and that's one reason we have the finest military inthe world. Quote:
[qote]You're off in La-La land dreaming about all the good shit we could do if we had a dream government. I'm angry about the things our current government is fucking up, and I think being concerned about those fuck ups could be constructive in getting a better administration.[/quote] I'm glad you're concerned aboutyour next president, it's of personal interest to me too. But frankly, I'm more interested in winning a war and seeing out our mission in iraq. I hope the next president (hopefully President Warner) continues this fight, but does more here at home to create consistent American sacrifice both here and abroad. We shouldn't be watching our men and women dying on the evening news and think that's how to win. |
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Jul 1st, 2006 03:19 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
ziggytrix | or to expect an answer at all... | |||||||||||||||||||
Jun 30th, 2006 07:26 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx | There's a reason my posts are limited to certain subjects. You should try it! Look, talk about something you really know about. Talk from an informed opinion. Educate yourself. That way, this stuff isn't some abstract question akin to "what is art". That way you don't say stupid shit like "How can you seal off Iraq's borders? It's 2281miles of border" and expect an answer that's not patronizing. | |||||||||||||||||||
Jun 30th, 2006 11:43 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
mburbank |
Just out of curiosity, and I'm sure you've stated this before but somehow I missed it, abdcefg, but what are your bona fides on all things Middle Eastern? I've yet to discern in any post the faintest scintila of doubt or a caveat that maybe there are things going on you don't know. Are you of Middle Eastern origin? Do you have a doctorate in Middle Eastern studies? Do you have friends in various governments? Are you perhaps, actually Paul Wolfowitz? How is it your opinion has become so so so so so so so so much more informed than anyone elses here? I know how you know so much more than I do, as Kev pointed out to me, I am blinded by my Bush hatred. But how did you get so knowledgeable? |
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Jun 29th, 2006 08:32 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx |
Ziggy + cognitive dissonance sitting in a tree. Don't worry. You sound smart. And contrarian. Really contrarian. Much improved from your "fuck you" days! Junior year's gonna be the best, huh guys?! |
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Jun 29th, 2006 06:40 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
ziggytrix |
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I'm glad you're actually asking me to clarify a point that you question. Communication over the internet is a clumsy art at best. The answer is "no" - as we're clear on the distinction between "the Iraqi people" and "some Iraqi people". I've said that several times now. I only objected to the implication that the insurgency either only represents the interests of Iraqis or else it is exclusively foreign interests. As you quite clearly stated after my objection that it is a hell of a lot more compllcated than that. Hence my last objection that this has spiralled into a pointless semantics argument. |
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Jun 29th, 2006 03:07 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
mburbank | "?!?!?!?!?" | |||||||||||||||||||
Jun 29th, 2006 02:50 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx |
I'm sure you think so. It's not semantics at all. Here is a chance for you to fight generalities and actually be accurate for once and you're too busy playing with the red pen up your ass. Aren't you always arguing that a small minority of Muslims support terror, along with radical ideaologies? ...because if so, isn’t it a bit contradictory to then also argue that Iraq in it’s entirety, overwhelmingly supports this same movement?!?!?!?!? You're suggesting that the number of foriegn fighters, or the opinion polls about US policy are relevant proof of Iraq's own support for what you have credited as being their own insurgency. So when you say stupid shit like this: Quote:
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Jun 29th, 2006 09:56 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||
ziggytrix |
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This is a stupid semantics debate. |
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Jun 28th, 2006 11:05 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
Abcdxxxx |
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Jun 28th, 2006 09:00 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
ziggytrix |
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You did not make a clear statement. Maybe you think brevity when stating opinions about things with which you have no direct experience (please correct me if you've personally polled the Iraqis or have a direct line to an omniscient observer) equates to substance, but I do not. I could point you to polls that say 2/3 of the Iraqi population say they oppose the US presence. It'd be nice to see some references or at least some numbers you could back up for a statement as ambiguous as the resistance "is largely foreign interest" but whatever, we're supposed to do our own research to back up your opinions, is that it? So let's agree for the moment that the statement "the current resistance against the US or whatever it is we're seeing now does not represent Iraqi's" is wholly factual, which I would say you cannot possibly know for fact, but since you say it is so, only a simpleton would take issue with it. Fine, let's pretend for the moment you do, in fact, have the ability to look into the hearts of a nascent nation and know what they want, even when they don't agree about what they want. I am envious of your supernatural talents. Were you born with this power, or did you just huff a lot of solvents in your youth? So what about my other question? How do you expect the United States Armed Forces to seal off 2281 miles of border in foreign lands? We haven't even been able to seal off 1951 miles of our own Southern border. Was that not a legitimate question? If that in not a legitimate question, then why do you think it was not done? Quote:
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