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Jun 19th, 2005 12:03 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Zhukov |
OAO: read State and Revolution. Also, try to pay attention to events unfoulding in Venezuela at the moment - something that you can follow as it evolves is just as imortant as reading books. |
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Jun 12th, 2005 11:50 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The One and Only... |
Admittedly, my attempts at a balanced perspective are somewhat half-assed, but I do come over here, don't I? That and I'm always debating my primitivist friend... Edit: One other thing. I recall someone mentioning that they hold that there is no plausible way that a market anarchist society could arise from our current situation. The New Libertarian Manifesto is a good outline of how the black market can yield a market anarchist society. Quite an interesting read, although I would dispute some of the points. |
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Jun 12th, 2005 11:48 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Helm | what rational person would go debate an ambivalent issue on an forum called 'anti-state'? What would I expect to learn from these people? You need to hang out with a less biased crowd, dude. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Jun 12th, 2005 11:44 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The One and Only... |
Haven't heard of them. I'll have to give them a try. Also, if anyone here is interested in learning more about/debating over anarcho-capitalism, I would suggest visting the Anti-State forums at http://anti-state.com/. You may post as a guest without registering, and yes, there are a few critics who regularly visit. All that is asked is that you keep your posts in the Newbie/Antagonist board. This thread has kinda devolved from it's purpose and I'd rather not flood I-Mock with discussions on market anarchism. Edit: As an afterthought, you might want to check out the forum just to see more of the criticisms of the theory. |
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Jun 12th, 2005 02:50 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
theapportioner | If you want some contemporary stuff, how about Dworkin and Sandel? | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Jun 11th, 2005 10:35 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The One and Only... |
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Jun 11th, 2005 08:46 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Emu | I suppose it's not necessarily a "bad" thing in the economic sense of the word. But like I said, when a few kids can't pass the test, the whole school suffers. Even those who do have the aspirations to achieve the white collar jobs typically won't have the resources OR the encouragement. The NCLB act focuses on poor-to-lower-middle district schools who need the funding anyway; the kids there are the ones who most need the aspiration. It's as if the NCLB is literally damning the whole student body to mediocrity instead of helping them reach the middle class like it was intended to do. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Jun 11th, 2005 08:38 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ItalianStereotype |
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Jun 11th, 2005 07:55 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Helm | Do us all a favour: don't reply. I might be wrong in some cases, and we can discuss that. You might be wrong in others and we can discuss that as well. But all this serves nothing at this point, other than making an ass out of you/me which while funny, isn't really something I wish to persue for more than I have to. Do something else instead: read actual books. By people. Stop reading the internet. It's better than nothing, but if you want to have an actual political opinion, read actual books. Read "The Age of Extremes", read "Principa Ethica" . Read stuff by people who are smarter than us directly, not in some internet summation site where you go "oh. So now I know what there's to know of Plato". You don't. This isn't knowledge you have, it's just information. It will not start making sense until it's orderly, in a linear framework where both your knowledge of history and your knowledge of philosophy/economics are on the same page. Right now you're just educated stupid. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Jun 11th, 2005 02:09 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The One and Only... |
I don't have time to address all of this right now, though I hope to reply tomorrow. Needless to say I think you're wrong on several cases - the idea that the State will inevitably evolve from anarcho-capitalism is not new and has been dealt with several times before. Similiarly, the idea that PDAs will become no better the Mafia has been dealt with. Just to clarify one point for Emu though. Practically every country in the world has fiat currency at the moment. The dollar, for example, has no value other than the value given to it by government decree. |
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Jun 11th, 2005 11:31 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Emu |
Since Helm already responded to most of it, I'll just respond to a few choice quotes. Quote:
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But I guess that's not what you mean. But here's what dictionary dot com says a fiat is: fiĀ·at ( P ) n. 1. An arbitrary order or decree. 2. Authorization or sanction: government fiat. This gives me the impression it has to be authorized...Authorized by WHOM, exactly? The people with the goods? Who won't want to give it up? Or would this be the last act of the government before you and your rough and tumble band of road warrior entrepeneurs overthrow it? Quote:
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Consider that for a minute and ask yourself if a Democrat would ever pass a law like that. I believe one of Kerry's platform promises was that he'd reform and/or get rid of the NCLB. Quote:
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Jun 11th, 2005 04:26 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Helm |
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THE POINT IS, OAO, THAT JUSTICE SERVES THE PUBLIC. THE WHOLE OF THE PUBLIC. It is there to create the necessary foundations of safety so that a whole community can prosper. Take the prosperity of the whole out of the equation, and there is no concept of justice that is applicable to this discussion. Make a new name for what you're talking about. Quote:
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So yeah, read some ethics while you're at it. I suggest Inventing Right and Wrong by H.Mackie as a good starting point. Quote:
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Jun 10th, 2005 10:14 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Emu | Anyone else find it ironic that he uses an Orwellian abbrevation for his social philosophy? | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Jun 10th, 2005 07:37 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
FS |
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And I love how through his 'ideological changes', the core of OAO's view of the ideal world is still one where he doesn't have to be bothered by other people's misfortunes. Didn't you ever see Robocop, OAO? |
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Jun 10th, 2005 07:33 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Emu |
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Jun 10th, 2005 07:13 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chojin |
Because this isn't a perfect society, and human nature will undo even the best-laid plans. "Why would we want to repeat that atrocity?" You would not control this society you propose. People would do it. All an AC system would do - provided you found enough simple-minded idiots to go along with it - is weaken people for predators to take advantage of them. The rest of that post was either I DISAGREE or YOUR JOKE DOES NOT MAKE SENSE IN A REAL-WORLD CONTEXT. Except for this line: "Do you really believe that currency would be liquidated for the commodity frequently in a stateless market economy?" ...which just makes no sense, but slowly and sensually strokes your terribly oversized member. I also enjoyed your bit about the Mafia falling against the forces of Public Displays of Affection. I think you should create a movie about that, or at least an anime. At any rate, Spongebob, you're just a kid. You'll never make it to Shell City, let alone create an ANARCHO CAPITALIST SOCIETY THAT HAS FENCING AS THE NATIONAL SPORT ONLY THERE IS NO NATION SO THE TERM NATIONAL IS QUITE REDUNDANT PFAH PFAH HA HA YES OH DEAR HOW CLEVER OF ME |
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Jun 10th, 2005 06:50 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The One and Only... |
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The mafia works in the underground crime scene. It's hardly analogous to PDAs, which would defend against extortion. It's all about the market - anywhere there is a high number of criminal activities, including extortion, the demand for a strong PDA will grow. All this works quickly; I don't see how a PDA would be any less able to handle a such an organization any less effectively than Statist police. Quote:
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Jun 10th, 2005 05:47 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Chojin |
OAO, you're reading replies and then trying to figure out why they're wrong instead of actually considering anything. That makes you a psuedo-intellectual. And now you just had a knee-jerk reaction that I was threatening you, so you'll disregard everything I say. Likewise, I'm going to pick through part of your post and ignore all the supposed content while making fun of it - not because I'm a psuedo-intellectual seeking an intellectual victory, but because I am an asshole who sees derision as a means unto itself. Funny how that works, isn't it? Quote:
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I'd read and respond to the rest of it, but it's like arguing with a 5-year-old that insists he's tall enough to ride the rollercoaster. Only he uses the socratic method (Michael ). |
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Jun 10th, 2005 05:02 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
kellychaos | Is this becoming a nature versus nurture argument? Am I to be believe that people would behave differently sans the oppressive state? How could you, OAO, possibly know human nature in a stateless society with no successful examples ... least-wise, none that have run their developmental course? At best, it would be an educated guess. Moreover, it would be YOUR educated guess ... and that doesn't exactly build any condidence in me given that you're citing 8th grade political science projects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Jun 10th, 2005 04:32 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
The One and Only... |
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Oh, and as far as no one getting a chance - it's called fiat currency. With the abolition of government, state-sponsored currencies will become valueless. Quote:
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Remember that these defense agencies do have to compete with one another. Quote:
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2) Why would you want to alter human nature anyway? What real purpose does it serve without an objective moral basis? Quote:
I think that the LTV is fundamentally disproven by the price system. Prices reflect, in part, the value that is given to products by human minds. Assuming that supply is the same, most people would pay more for a computer than a toothpick even if the amount of labor required to make them was the same. Thus, they are valued on a subjective level. |
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Jun 10th, 2005 01:45 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Helm |
I actually missed the whole of your rebuttal before. Quote:
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[quoteFor some it's an end in itself.[/quote] I am prepared to align even with such people since we share the same intermediate goal. Quote:
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Also, I never said human nature can be fundamentally altered. The jury's still out on that one, but probably, it can only happen naturally through many such 'nurtured' generations. I was/am saying that it's workings can and should be explored to the point where they're made transparent for all, and controlled. This is not happening right now. Nobody is trying. Everybody is being automatic. I had this discussion with the Apportioner in this forum 3 years ago and when he first suggested that man goes to war because of his instinctual leanings, I considered it absurd and fought the notion well into my following study of determinism before I decided to stop lying to myself. Most people, even to suggest that they're not IN COMPLETE CONTROL of themselves flinch and kneejerk all over the place. Nobody is trying. We have to try. Quote:
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Jun 10th, 2005 01:20 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Spectre X |
I don't deny the existence of human instinct, I deny the existence of human nature as a fixed thing. Helm summed it up pretty nicely. I didn't mean the instinctual urges we have, but the emphasis put on them by whichever culture one is a part of. |
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Jun 10th, 2005 12:04 PM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Emu |
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Anarcho-capitalism IS a contradiction. It's true that capitalism works "better" with less government, but it doesn't work at all in the absence of it. The government is what sets the definite value of your capital. A dollar is worth the same amount of Ho-Hos no matter where you go. A chicken is not. And if there IS no government, the capitalist nature of the society will produce one, whether you like it or not. Quote:
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(Also, agriculture hasn't even existed for "millions of years"...Homo sapiens as a speices hasn't even existed a million years. If that's not a clue, then I don't know what is.) |
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Jun 10th, 2005 11:36 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Emu |
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It seems to me an anarchocapitalist is just someone who really, really doesn't want to pay taxes. |
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Jun 10th, 2005 11:18 AM | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Helm |
the fact that you fish out your flavour of the month from internet philosophy databases means if nothing else, that you definately aren't ready to call yourself anything that ends with an -ist, yet. The point of having a political and philosophical position is manyfold, but simply using them to impress people, or to fortify yourself against your cruel mom, or to divert your teenage angst isn't what I'd call valid. Left libertarian, Anarchist Libertarian, Agorist, Anarcho-capitalist... whatever you think is cooler |
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