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Topic Review (Newest First)
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| Nov 2nd, 2005 05:28 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
"I'm not sure exactly where you're getting the idea of expansion so from my discussion. There are always gaps to be filled ... refinements." "Similarly, each of us as an individual is inter-connect to the systems of nature, society, and thought that flow surround and flow through us" From there. I'm so exhausted, though, maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. It's too hot in here  Plus I haven't smoked pot in a few days, and I've been getting stoned constantly for so long.. plus i'm hungover. My brain feels fuzzy ;(
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| Nov 2nd, 2005 05:23 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
"Perhaps what you call "karma" has no discernable effect at all or becomes a plot outside the graph in those higher levels" Anybody who I've ever known who actually knows anything about karma or the way the world works would refer to karma as "Cause and effect". Whether it has a 'discernable effect' or not, it's there. Karma's sort of the complete(all the lies and truths, everything that has happened) history of the world, coalesced into a human concept that what happens in the future can be changed today(and of course that the past influences today, and thus the future). I think it's simple, most people find that hard for some reason. Karma almost argues against freewill because it essentially states that you are a collection of everything that has happened to you, and to the world(because despite what happened to you, the world happened to you first). There's considered to be multiple levels of karma, blood karma(family), national, self and I guess universal if you want to get down to it. That means all the stigma your family (what kind of people they are, what religion they are, what kind of choices they make, their knowledge) and nation(same as family but with it's own variables) have gained, all the hate, all the good, all the bad, all the whatever is within you and forms your personality. When you become enlightened(stipossidely) you disconnect from your karma, your karma becomes zero. Essentially, you go against your history, what you SHOULD believe and how you SHOULD act(according to the various karmas you have collected) become a non-issue, and you become capable of making your own decisions based on looking at the world without the dirty taint of your karma. Maybe we are capable of freewill, but not everyone has it? In that instance, freewill would be considered a self-freemasonry(the freedom to make yourself free, or the freedom to bind yourself, i spose), or masonry of the world and universe; essentially, will to power and will to manifestation. Will that is outside of your "Self" as you were born, will within your true self that is outside of the human drama(being within the human drama is being influenced by another, and thus your choices are limited). It's sort of like a freedom outside of sociological restraints. I can still find flaws in that, though. For example, your karma still brought you to the point that you could become free of it all. But maybe that is more of a breaking point, creation unbridled or something. The big bang inside your underpants. Is that easy to understand? As for the big bang happening over and over again, that's what i was indicating(all the infinitey stuff, from bliss to futility) except I like to throw in some kind of romantic conceptualism that gives the neverending story a saga like feel. it essentially boils down to various forms of gravity, conceptual and idealogical. In the end, maybe people choose to be ignorant and incapable of experiencing freewill. If everything is absolutely eternal and infinite, than everyone and everything has already been both an ascended master and a piece of shit-- possibly even simotaneously-- an infinite amount of times. Maybe the universe as a whole is the only thing that has freewill, and we are both it's unwitting bitch and the pieces that make it whole. How much freedom can you really have within something that doesn't exist, though? |
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| Nov 2nd, 2005 04:58 PM | ||
| kellychaos |
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| Nov 2nd, 2005 04:09 PM | ||
| kellychaos |
Perhaps chaos (or free will) is a matter of perspective and context. Perhaps we can only experience the free will as it pertains to us at our own respective level; whereas, when you step at another higher level, this flux (cause and effect) that we call life forms first, a discernable pattern, and then no movement ... no time? ... at all. Perhaps what you call "karma" has no discernable effect at all or becomes a plot outside the graph in those higher levels. "The Devil is in the details" ... so to speak. The Big Bang becomes the Big Crunch and then renews itself into another Big Bang a' la "the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe"? You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself about and that's ... really ... what it's all about. I'm such a victim of pop culture. :/
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| Nov 1st, 2005 06:04 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
By the by, what would you consider to be the purpose of that? I think it fits in well with discussions of evolution or the purpose of life. It sort of lends to the whole "Oneness" thing people talk about, what we do as individuals in some sense effects the whole. Because of this, considering humanity as a mass attempting to evolve to something better,(at the very least, considering what you posted as a means to social and cultural evolution) does what we do in our day to day lives have a large effect on how the whole works? A weak link in the chaos chain sort of thing. So if humanity as a whole is trying to evolve into a super humanity, to what end? If the universe(or existence) functions on the same chaotic level, then how the whole of humanity is functioning effects how the whole of the universe is working, then the universe is also attempting to evolve to become a super universe. That can go into a lot of other thoughts.. but i always wonder, what's the point? Are we going to go around and beat up other universes, or are we going to chaos chain the other universes into becoming super universes? And if we do that, what's the point? At a certain point it becomes pointless. Who cares if you're big and bad, or if you're completed within yourself, through and through. What happens after that? You become stale and algaeic, creating another imperfect lifeform which collapses the whole. Rust is a curse to those who seek unity or perfection. The only thing I can think that makes it worthwhile is the pursuit of bliss, or the desire to flee from it. Probably both, unification errors right personification errors, solace within the epitemy of our own dualistic and chaotic nature-- keep pushing that stone. Duality is our epic of desertion and I pray it ends knowing it's infinite... is pursuing bliss anymore rewarding than the persuit of futility? I find they share the same facade. Repitition becomes our world, will our manifestation and copulation/ pity our means of survival. It makes you feel shame for yourself and everything around you, knowing it's all a built up dilusion based on the desire for meaning, but there can be no meaning and never will except within your insanity. Cthulu epics become exciting while eternal peace and solace become the weapon to bore eyes. The universe is insane and in a state of constant angst, it's adorable. It is likely we have become our own epitimized universe an infinite amount of times then commited suicide. The will of our broken souls then molded our new haven while pieces of our angelic nature stayed in jolly candy land. The universe is so pointless and eternity makes my heart throb with hatred. Who's idea was that anyway? the funny thing is that bliss is attributed to nothingness, absolute void. Escapades from this. Somewhere along the line of striving for bliss everyone became a nihilist. |
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| Nov 1st, 2005 05:31 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
What you posted is essentially a long drawn out definition of Karma, kellychaos. What you do will likely effect everyone in the world, just like everyone in the world will likely effect you. You could call it chaos theory, karma or just recognize it as something that has to happen regardless... If you tell someone they are a rat bastard and it makes them angry and they take it out on someone else, then that person gets angry and they take it out on someone else.. yada yada. Karma is really only individually targetted in mystic conversations to make people feel like the actions they commit will come back to them. Originally it was probably used as a tool to help egotistical people, but now it's spread into a sort of panic of misunderstanding. Isn't it funny the way karma works, it even works against itself. Somehow when explainations like these come in book form people attach to them more readily than when someone explains them constantly on a message board. I love this topic and would love to have conversations with you about it, it's such a variable topic and can be used to encompass anything. |
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| Nov 1st, 2005 04:43 PM | ||
| kellychaos |
Although this is what many may consider "pop physics", this passage describing an image of a flowing brook from the the book, Sevel Lessons of Chaos: Spiritual Wisdom From The Science Of Change by John Briggs and F. David Peat, is what i was thinking in a roundabout way: Quote:
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| Nov 1st, 2005 11:10 AM | ||
| kahljorn | Various occultists and "Spiritual schools" and even religious people say the same thing, seth. I think it has something to do with "Will" in it's purest form(conceptual) which is why I always thought thelema was a fitting name.... A sort of conceptual and consciousness gravity that draws together various ideas and feelings... | |
| Oct 31st, 2005 07:59 PM | ||
| Sethomas | In my way of thinking, God and human souls designed the big bang to be in such proportions that the beauty of cosmological and natural and human histories would coalesce. Woo. | |
| Oct 31st, 2005 05:16 PM | ||
| kahljorn | I don't know why more people don't enjoy you on this messageboard, kellychaos, I find you to be entertaining and suave. | |
| Oct 31st, 2005 04:59 PM | ||
| kellychaos |
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| Oct 31st, 2005 12:33 PM | ||
| Emu |
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| Oct 31st, 2005 11:16 AM | ||
| kahljorn |
"See, there shouldnt be a distinction between natural and human made because we are part of nature." I just made an entire post about that. It wasn't me arguing the distinction, it was others, i was just making a post that would apply to their logic. Thanks... |
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| Oct 30th, 2005 08:33 PM | ||
| The One and Only... | Good sir, I do believe that is a duel-worthy insult. | |
| Oct 30th, 2005 08:25 PM | ||
| Sethomas | Shut up. | |
| Oct 30th, 2005 08:20 PM | ||
| The One and Only... | Math is an art: it just happens to be one which, making certain assumptions, can be practically applied. :formalist | |
| Oct 30th, 2005 04:24 PM | ||
| CaptainBubba |
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| Oct 30th, 2005 02:37 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
I wasn't arguing determinism, I was arguing a completely different topic because I thought what was being said about it was rather stupid. Also, when was the last time all you "Natural mathematicians" saw a "Natural geometrical shape". I'm sorry to say but geometrical shapes are actually very unnatural, and from what I understand one way to tell if something was created intellectually or naturally is by looking at how geometrically perfect an item is, the more perfect the more unnatural. I don't think I've ever seen a natural triangle or a natural straight line.. all of that stuff is human. For creating human objects. I just thought of that when I was eatting my soup and thought it was funny. |
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| Oct 30th, 2005 02:32 PM | ||
| CaptainBubba |
I shouldn't have to be arguing determinism with you. Its just an aspect of nature. Its just an endpoint from all logical thought. This whole argument stems from people doing this: "determism must exist because..." then someone who doesnt understand what he just said going "BUT WAIT WHAT ABOUT FLOWERS. FLOWERS ARE PRETTY. THAT HAS TO DO WITH THIS." |
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| Oct 30th, 2005 02:28 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
Yea, like i said it's all unimportant, i don't really know why this argument is in this thread. Good luck trying to find the answer to freewill and determinism through mathematics, though. But whether it's important(because nothing is really important, importance is a human expression) or not doesnt eliminate it's validity in an argument, and simply assuming it does because it's unimportant for one reason or another makes you ignorant. |
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| Oct 30th, 2005 02:24 PM | ||
| CaptainBubba |
Here. I'll make it simple for ya'll. As far as this argument is concerned: There is no such thing as importance. Art and culture are important to us. Good for them. It doesnt mean it has batshit to do with determinism and free will. |
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| Oct 30th, 2005 02:18 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
Also I forgot to mention, Pythagoras, the great mathematician had a university in Corona or somesuchspelling that I can't remember because i just woke up. He taught three things there: Philosophy, Mathematics and Music. I think that's interesting for some reason that may or may not be related to this thread. |
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| Oct 30th, 2005 01:58 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
"Art is a definitively human form of expression, it has nothing to do with the actual nature of anything." "Human nature wouldn't be different if it wasn't expressed in terms of art. People have a natural tendency to express themselves artistically" I'll just group these together since they are basically the same Just the nature of humanity, right? Good thing that's not anything, it's just this thing that exists somewhere but not in this universe and also human beings don't really exist this message board is a lie. So maybe you should consider that before you post your little lies on this message board of lies you dirty liar. Art is also what, humanities way to express their emotions, to express their feelings on things? That's not part of the universe or anything(it expresses absolutely no nature except for the nature of humanity which is molded by the nature of the universe geez that's weird)? Their perception on the universe? Human expression and emotion is molded by the nature of this world. As such it is a representation of everything around us, and every force we ever come into contact with. The fact that we are capable of making art is based on biological and psychological conditioning and even physics which eventually loops back to art making us capable of intellectual expression... Human beings are absolutely unimportant. Math is unimportant, and so is biology. Art is equally as unimportant as the previously mentioned items. For some reason, even if human beings have no understanding of the universe, it still manages to work. Also I should mention that our entire neuropsychological development that allowed us to discover biology and mathematics was art or human expression. I'm sorry to say but the Nature of sentient organisms evolving is part of this universe and I would say a very important, if not most important(to sentient organisms) part of the universe. I don't know what school you went to but the study of how society has evolved(and how humanity has evolved) is a certain science that I will allow to remain nameless because it wishes to hide from boring eyes. The argument that art is unimportant because it is a human expression is void of any thought. Human beings are in the universe, and if human beings are in the universe and make art to develop their culture than that is part of the "NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE". Sure, the universe would exist without us, but it could also exist without suns and atoms and whatthefuckeverelse and it probably has existed without them before I believe science mentions something about that with pre-bigbang talk. Art/expression is/was essential to human development and played a huge part in it. If you don't think human beings being able to communicate with one another is important to their development than you would likely be forming a primative world, because the nature of humanities evolution was built on language and expression. Also, the building you're living in wouldn't be around without the art of masonry, or the art of carpentry or any of the other arts that were expressed and communicated/taught to eachother by means of oral expression. I don't know, this is a stupid argument that only exists because of scientific dogma on the part of some psuedo-intellectual zealot for science who wants to believe that what they are devoting their life to or what they believe is the only possible true thing and their life is not a waste and when they die the universe will live forever in their memory. Amen. P.S. I know you're probably thinking of some argument like the universe would exist without us here but the NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE created us and THEN decided to create ART and expression between us that allowed us to develop into what we are today. Obviously you are missing that and all it entails including the fact that EVERYTHING WE HAVE IS NATURAL FOR THE UNIVERSE TO CREATE BECAUSE NOTHING IS UNNATURAL AND IF IT WAS IT WOULDNT EXIST. Human beings were created by universal nature, art was created by human nature which was created by universal nature to help us develop which is a human nature that was created and controlled and guided by the universal nature. "And math is innate, natural and not simply human." the universe wasn't created by numbers, math is merely a way of expressing the universe in a way that human beings can understand. In a sense it is an art because it allows expression of the universe by human beings, just like art does. Arguing outside of humanity is impossible because you are horribly human. Humans are natural because the universe created them the end. I don't even know what i wrote. |
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| Oct 29th, 2005 10:37 AM | ||
| kellychaos |
I am satisfied with that explanation. Kant, a hero of mine btw, seemed to think that art was the closest that you could get to God ...I suppose you could substitute God for "human nature" in this instance. |
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| Oct 29th, 2005 12:48 AM | ||
| CaptainBubba | you're my new best philosophy board friend papa goat. | |
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