Right, people give the token gesture to Israel, but when Israel responds it's "disproportionate force."

If they use targeted bombings against hezbollah (with bombs bought from the U.$.), they're killing children. it doesn't matter that Israel has gone to great lengths to keep civilian casualties low. Israel drops leaflets, makes phone calls, and places warnings with local media. Hezbollah loads shrapnel and ball bearings into their rockets in order to maximize innocent casualties. Where do hezbollah rockets get fired? I wish the Left could try to be a little consistent here. These diatribes against Israel will often have the token sentence about Hezbollah, "oh yeah, they're really bad and need to stop." Israel on the other hand has commiteed massacres, and are "invading" Lebanon.

Go read http://www.commondreams.org/, check out some of the articles there:

"Silvia Tennenbaum:
Why Doesn't Israel Work For Peace?"

"Peter Bouckaert:
For Israel, Innocent Civilians Are Fair Game"

"Robert Scheer:
Israel’s Dependency on the Drug of Militarism"

Good reading, although I think you make a valid point. Lucklily, those who would sooner ask Israel to lay over and die, or deal with terrorists, happen to find themselves on the fringes of the Left Wing (and some on the fringee of the other end). Those who happen to see this is just a really, really, really confusing mess with no clear bad guys and good guys are surely on the fringes, right?


Yeah, I wonder where this perception comes from. Could it be that people on the far Left jump at the opportunity to call this an "invasion", even though it was Israel that was attacked? Maybe because "rescue workers" at Qana took the opportunity to parade the corpses of children around, cursing israel's name, without even asking themselves why Hezbollah guerillas may have been in the area to begin with? Maybe because Human Rights Watch decided to condemn Israel for human rights violations in Qana, long before any serious investigation could possibly be conducted? i mean, it's not like HRW is quick to always blame Israel, even though they've had to recant what they had initially said regarding the Gaza beach bombings in early June.


The problem is that people like you take the attitude that there are two attitudes in need for adjustment. There aren't.

And I agree about not accepting temporary solutions. Israel accepted a temporary solution with Hezbollah before, and it has resulted in more attacks, more death, and more war.

A good solution would be the destruction of an armed hezbollah. When Lebanon can negotiate peace for their own country, rather than having an armed party that represents less than 20% of their population, then you'll see a change. Otherwise, Israel needs to clear out southern Lebanon for their own security. The UN won't do it, nor will the Lebanese government (needless to say Syria and Iran won't do it).

I just talked to a person from lebanon who has very negative feelings about what Israel is doing to lebanon ;O Not that it's a surprise or anything that there's more than one opinion.

are the reffering to the river Jordan? Someone has ambitions.

I'd say the people who see it as a simple situation with clear good guys and clear bad guys are the guys who are doing the fighting, or cheerleading one side or the other.

Personally, I see it as a mess with no clear good guys. There's a lot of blood on a lot of hands, and for now, I don't see a way out without even more bloodshed, and I really wish I did, and moreso I wish more people were wanted a way out without more bloodshed. It's great that Israel took so many measures to reduce innocent casualties, and I'm really glad they did that, because the saner refugees that come out of this will see that and understand that their enemy is not completely inhuman.

The problem with people like you is that you think you know what everyone thinks. >:

Fuck this, I don't have the time to waste talking about this with people who already know everything about everything.

Well sure. Israel is bombing their country. On the other hand, what's his affiliation that he doesn't put the majority of the blame on Hezbollah? Are they happy that an Islamic fundamentalist group have armed themselves on their borders and tried to pick a Holy War with their neighbors? You could wipe out all of Israel tommorow, and Lebanon will still be on the brink of a civil war. What's going on that he doesn't blame his government for not just taking a passive stance, but alliging themselves with a genocidal army financed through the collusion of outside countries? Lebanon actualized 500,000 Palestinian and Syrian aliens in 1994, to manipulate the vote. 11 of Lebanons newspapers were shut down in 1977, and even when they had a free press, the word Jew and Israel were blacked out of articles. Sure they're angry at Israel. It's easier then confronting the real symptom of the problem.

Are you in that much denial that you can't acknowledge that one side are blood thirsty genocidal maniacs with an fundamentalist religious doctrine to kill all Jews? Do explain why it's so hard to pick out the bad guy from that, please, and spare me the "even Hitler had a heart" diatribes.

Yeah it must make you like, feel stupid or something. Better stick to talking about nothing with people who know nothing.

The only thing I can think of that they said that may apply to this is, "Who cares why don't they go after hezbollah then he has nothing to do with us why do they destroy our town and kill people who have nothing to do with it."

To answer your question her affiliation is nothing as far as I know, she's seems to be a very common person.

Ziggy, I understand your frustration with having this discussion in this format. If you truly want to feel better about what's happening, since you are resigned to it being while hoping for the best, I can help you with that. Abcxxx and Kevin could probably help as well in that regard if they chose to.

I feel that sort of willingness to compromise on personal if not political lines is tragically missing in American discussion these days, at least or maybe especially on message boards. I'm not sure it ever existed on message boards, actually...

In our personal lives, we can peacefully co-exist among those we might entirely disagree with, never crossing polite borders. Maybe the basic nature of the internet, or at least our slow progress in instilling normal society's polite borders on it, precludes that civility among those that disagree which leads to peace.

I'd love to try to help you feel better about the war on all it's fronts. First, I'd like to establish where you are in that process already. You mentioned feeling that those that were in favor of the war were either fighting it personally or cheering for those that are. You also seem to believe the warrior spirit driving the soldiers of the more developed nations in the conflict roots from some sort of primitive bloodlust and unwillingness to seek means that don't involve carpet-bombing.

I'm a fan of the War on Terror itself. I am neither a soldier nor a military fanboy. I respect the military for it's proven integrity and I love our soldiers for the risks they take knowingly in honor of that integrity. I almost signed up twice, but I'm not a person that will kill someone, so I'm not good soldier material. The author of that book I suggested to Geggy and Courage believes our military force will soon split into two distinct forces with very different missions: one to kill things and break stuff and one to do what UN troops and NATO troops have so unfailingly always failed at: restore, build and keep peace.

I might be the type of guy to join up for that second force, but I'm a thirty-something now...

Either way, you want to feel better about the war? Start with trying to understand it on the largest level and abandon your studies of who the people are that are for it. Think of the war as a machine, with input and a product. Where do you hope this is going? To what end is all this mess? Try to imagine that you and everyone else in the modern world has desires for one of two possible products from this machine's work, yet among the individual's comprising either faction there is merely some disagreement on the layout of the various gears and levers and whatnot.

You exist among we of the modern world, and we all comprise about 2/3's of the population of the Earth. The other third of the population that is not counted among us in 2006 lives in a version of our 1806, or so. There are two similar factions among those people, just as in our group, that desire one or the other of the same two possible products of our machine for different reasons than our own, and the individuals comprising those factions also disagree among themselves on methodology and strategy.

One of the possible products of this war machine is a world united in the modern world's notion of freedom to live one's life however one chooses. In our modern world, we have established a society that universally condemns violence as a means to an end. Our common goal is to reach that golden plateau where peaceful means are all anyone ever uses to achieve her goals, whatever they may be. Right?

The only other possible product of this war machine is the world we have now or one where peaceful means are on the decline.

In both the modern world and the smaller, disconnected one there are those that want one or the other. "Terrorists" are included among the latter, where we all exist among the former. None of us here wish for a more violent world or a world where violent means are acceptable. All of us live in that violent world, however. Some of us are trying to change that. Some don't understand what's going on. Some are trying to do the right things for the wrong reasons. Some are actively resisting that change for whatever reason... some good and some bad.

Think of the War on Terror as a War on Violent Means. It is a "kinder, gentler war." I believe we stand a fantastic chance of winning it. Whose side do you believe the American government is on? How about the French? Tony Blair? Kevin? You? I know I am all for a war that promises an end to war, and I believe this is it.

I believe the enemy in this war is comprised of those that wish to keep one-third of our world's population in the dark for their own selfish benefit. These are the dictators. The Slave Lords. That they have co-opted Theocracy as their means to their end is just a tactic. That they have seated Muhammed at their throne just a matter of convenience, for their motivations are, by my moral standards, the furthest thing from holy.

I have no problem with Islam, nor any other religion. I personally do not subscribe to any faith, but I support the practice as a generally healthy excercise for people who wish to partake. I am spiritual myself, and I find it valuable. I think it's a good thing for me and anybody else to believe as they see fit, as long as it's a positive thing.

I just don't believe that violence is acceptable, even for religious reasons. As long as it is useful, however, it must always be met with at least the credible threat of a greater violence, if not it's force, as a deterrent or a means of punishment. As long as there are humans, I believe, sadly, there will be violent tendancies. If the threat of a greater violence can be made to overwhelm those tendancies, I suppose I would be happy to live under that threat as long as everyone else does and violence ceases to exist as a functional reality brought to bear intentionally by one human being upon another for whatever reason.

They say good fences make good neighbors, and the entire world is currently involved in a dispute over the global property line. This dispute will not be settled in a good way by pretending there is anything less at stake than World Peace and Global Freedom. We were born free, and we have always lived free. We have no idea of what it is like to live in any other state of being. To be un-free is to be subject to violence at the whim of another with no remedy.

No human being, in my mind, deserves to live like that unless as part of an appropriate punishment for violating the moral precepts that support our modern, free society. There are many that, whether they frame the war in this context or not, will agree with me on this. There are a number of people on this planet, at this time, that disagree with me in this regard. They are seeking to rope off the portion of the world not currently connected to our modern, free civilization, hoping to keep their third of the world enslaved by whatever means necessary. We call those people terrorists, dictators, despots and most commonly: enemies.

I'll ask you to consider again: Which side of this war is Israel on? How about America? Iran? Saddam Hussein? George Bush? Rummy? How about Michael Moore? Ben Afleck?

Ok... maybe that's taking this a bit too far for now...

Hope I've a helped at least a little...

As empathetic as I am for the good Lebanese caught in the middle, it's not Israel's responsibility to worry about their interpolitics. There was an attack coming from Lebanese territory, and rather then try and stop it, her government has aligned themselves with the culprits instead. Legally, I'm not sure Israel could hit Syria for an attack coming out of Lebanon. If she's angry that Lebanon is being held accountable, it's because her own country didn't take acountability in the first place. I guess apathy is a new one for the Lebanese though.

You say all that like a common person has any choice or influence in the matter. HER GOVERNMENT? She's not the president!

Lebanon is supposed to be a democracy. She is supposed to have a say in it. How many mass protests go on at any time over any topic in this country?

A terrorist group is attacking a neighboring nation and using her country as cover. Her democratically elected government is complicent at best and compliant at worst.

What exactly does she want Israel to do? And doesn't she feel a little responsibility to fixing the problem?

You're so feel good, Preechr. You're the I-Mockery version of a James Taylor song.

I mean, yeah man, it's so complicated and complex. The armed guerilla wing of a minority political party declared war on a sovereign nation, and shucks, that nation is responding!

I'm not sure where the confusion is. Sure, there's a lot of history, a lot of religion, and a lot of other sociological issues involved in the mess.

However, if you take just a cursory glance at history you'll learn a couple of things. 1. Israel makes peace, and conceds land, to those who truly want to make peace with her. 2. She will continue to fight those who wish her destruction.

I overheard one idiot in a coffee shop yesterday say "ya know, Hezbollah said that if Israel stopped attacking and 'left', they (Hezbollah) would stop firing rockets." Since Israel left Lebanon years ago, that made her point rather moot. Anyone who thinks this issue is about 1967 borders, or two-state solutions, or the right of return, is misguided and should brush up. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, and I'm not going to water down a discussion that I feel is too important and demanding of moral clarity. I say this not as a "cheerleader," but as someone who counted himself amongst the misguided.

Peace and a ceasefire are two different things. Just because bombs aren't dropping doesn't mean there is peace. Organizations like Hezbollah LOVE to stop fighting, b/c it allows them to recharge, re-stock, and regroup. A peace is a conscious activity, it takes work, and as you saw today in light of the announcement of some of the resolution conditions, it's something Hezbollah DOES NOT WANT.

The only singer I hate more than James Taylor is Lee Greenwood.

You really know how to hurt a guy.

I understand the rest of your post, and I'm pretty sure that's not stuff you think I don't already know...

What, then, is your general objection to my post?

The bulk of my post was directed at Ziggy, sorry.

I like James Taylor. :(

Does anyone bitch about the US/Mexican wall and call it Aparthied that we check IDs and only allow legal workers, tourists, and students across?

Every country, no matte rhow poor it's neigbour, has the right to wall off it's border.

Democracies don't necessarily represent what every person in the nation want. Look how many people on this message board complain about President Bush. The only reason I added her opinion was because I thought it was relevant and was completely different than the "Supportive" views I've been hearing about that were represented as the "Real truth".

Next time I talk to her I'll ask her if she supports hezbollah or not, I thought it might've been a bit touchy of a subject.

Oh that's right, you don't watch the news. The Lebanese love Hezbollah now. They even refer to those Hezbollah prisoners as "Lebanese prisoners". Don't blink though, because the tide is shifting. They'll be turning on Hezbollah next week.

The "real truth" refers to the onset of civil war which has nothing to do with Israel.

The news doesn't necessarily represent everybody's opinion simultaneously.

So what's the real truth?

If only there was a way to offset the difference between varied opinions, and what really just amounts to promotion for Islamic-Fascism.

The real truth is this Nasrallah quote:
"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

Last weeks photo of a Christian mob in Lebanon smashing a car that had a Hezbollah sicker is the real truth:


Lebanon will be temporarily united under war but the tensions which pre-existed will only become just that much more relevant in the aftermath of Israel's defensive incursion. Maybe sooner.

Sounds like a regular everyday war to me, albeit with a little extra racism. Lebanon has always held a history of vastly different 'Opinions', I'm not really surprised that it's still the same today.

If by everyday war you mean like the one around 1938, then sure.

About that racism you mentioned? Let's look at last weeks tally, minus a few incidents....

The Shooting in Seattle.
Jewish shops in Rome were desecrated with Swastikas.

An Israeli man was murdered from knife wounds bya carload of men.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20035903-2,00.html

A Synagogue in Brazil was damaged by molotov cocktails.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

Hizballah supporters in Montreal violently attacking pro-Israel demonstrators.
http://www.judeoscope.ca/article.php3?id_article=0434

Two South Florida synagogues and a kosher restaurant have cleaned up messages of hate left behind by vandals over the weekend.
The vandals struck the Young Israel of Greater Miami and Shaaray Tefilah synagogues in North Miami Beach.

They spray painted in red, swastikas, the letters “KKK”, for the hate group, The Ku Klux Klan, and the message “you are next” on both synagogues
http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_211232748.html

A Jewish community center was attacked in Australia.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...285504,00.html

The Holocaust memorial in Brussels was vandalized, and ashes from a concentration camp were stolen.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672346/posts


New York Magazine describes Israel as a mistake, using the historical fallacy that it sits on "Arab land".
http://newyorkmetro.com/news/imperia...467/index.html

Israel supporters were spit on at a "Support Lebanon" rally. An Israeli was physically attacked trying to video tape a "cease fire" rally turned Hizballah rally.
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/008897.shtml
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/008799.shtml

There was Mel Gibson's drunken anti-semitic rant followed by the publicity machine to clear his name.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060802/...me_gibson_dc_5

That's what I was talking about.

Syria buys Russian anti tank stuff to give to lebanon
The Hezbollah anti-tank teams use a new and particularly potent version of the Russian-made RPG, the RPG-29 that was sold by Moscow to the Syrians and then transferred to the Shi’ite organization.

In "it's about damn time" news
Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi told reporters after a Cabinet meeting that ''the government expresses its readiness to send a 15,000-member Lebanese army force after occupation forces withdraw.''

this is my fave, fresh from the lebanon media the article is called
"the cost of Lebanon's victory" It's just about war debt but the title was hilarious. Lebanon isn't even participating in the war they are sitting back and watching hezballah get raped by Israel. (God knows they don't wanna help the terrorist/opposing party group)

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....ticle_id=74560

Oh and while i'm here i wanna say "rofl" @ the pic, and i'd like to make an off color Mel Gibson Joke about the Nasrallah genocide quote.

Seriously I don't understand what outside of superstition is why People hate Jews?

On a slightly related note the Israeli military recieved intelligence saying a house was used to store weapons for terrorists in Gaza. They called the family TWICE on the phone to tell them to leave and that the house would be bombed.

This was bad military tactic since they got all the weapons out but they saved the lives of the family supporting the terrorists. What pic do they show after this selfless act?


the kid walking in the remains of his old house/terrorist stronghold.

Candians believe Israel is using FRICKEN LASER BEAMS! The shark division was unavailable for comment at the time.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=2918

"Bodies with dead tissues and no apparent wounds; 'shrunken' corpses; civilians with heavy damage to lower limbs that require amputation, which is nevertheless followed by unstoppable necrosis and death; descriptions of extensive internal wounds with no trace of shrapnel, corpses blackened but not burnt, and others heavily wounded that did not bleed."

This is actually hilarious....could it be these casualties were maybe, oh i don't know....ALREADY DEAD!? The poor babies corpse being paraded around like a trophy at Qana sure sounds like it could fit the above description. Are they digging up gravesites, and raiding morgues, then rushing the corpses to an emergency room? It sounds like they're amputating innocent people for imaginary limb damage. War by proxy...Munchausen by proxy...same thing. Meanwhile, Hezbollah have threatened to use chemicals, which means they're probably mixing the stuff in daycares.

Seriously, I only wish Israel was half that ruthless with their high tech toys, being that is it a war...but instead we get the only military in existance that sings peace songs, and begs their targets to evacuate.... and they're still compared to the worst of the worst.

Here's more from last week I missed:

The Edinburgh Film Festival told an Israeli filmmaker "it might be in your best interest if you don't attend" the screening, and rejected sponsorship from Israel's film fund. The film is actually anti-Israel, made by a leftist.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746155.html

Grafiti attack a NZ synagogue. "6 million Jews. 7 million Russians. 40 million people in total. What makes you so special," + swastikas.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=119114

Suicide Bombers The other war.

The Israeli Air Force struck an Islamic Jihad arms depot in Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza.
Beit Hanoun residents reported that the structure attacked is a house and that the IDF has called the residents and asked them to evacuate prior to the strike. You'll remember Islamic Jihad has taken responsibility for a LOT of suicide bombings. One baby was injured in the attack but he's gonna be alright. (bring your cild to infitadah day?)

Crazy religous guy ways in on war, no wait this one is FOR Israel.

The Rev. Pat Robertson once suggested that Ariel Sharon's massive stroke was divine punishment for withdrawing from the Gaza Strip.
That led Israel to suspend contact with the televangelist. But he was back today -- praying with Sharon's successor.
Robertson said he and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert joined hands during a 15-minute meeting and prayed for victory in Lebanon.

Spielberg wants to Help Israel (No At-Ats in the background over haifa)

A foundation created by filmmaker Steven Spielberg will donate $1 million to relief efforts in Israel as it battles with Hezbollah.
The Righteous Persons Foundation will make an initial contribution of $250,000 to the Jewish Federation of Los Angeles Israel Crisis Fund. The foundation will then follow up with gifts to the New Israel Fund and other organizations that are providing relief to those evacuated from northern Israel, said Marvin Levy, foundation spokesman.
The Jewish Foundation will use its donation to support emergency efforts for evacuated children, install shatterproof glass in Haifa's three hospitals and provide emergency assistance at the Naharia hospital, he said.
The New Israel Fund will use its donation to set up crisis hot lines and provide food and other emergency supplies to families in northern Israel, Levy said.

Thousands of New Yorkers protest Israel and support Hamas and Hezballah

http://nyc.indymedia.org/or/2006/08/74334.html

Reutergate

Aside from the smoke pic, reuters is pulling several more pics. One is the same woman crying in front of several different houses of rubble implying she was different women at different houses.

Also the famous aid worker holding up the dead baby corpse while smiling like it's a trophy was removed cause the guy wearing the aid unifrom was NOT an aid worker but a local posing with the corpse.

Here's my fave note this plane firing missiles at civilians. Wait, it's not firing missiles, it's releasing flares, These are for screwing with heat seeking anti aircraft fire. They don't blow up.