Who's pulling the protestor's strings? (editorial)
 

This is from a conservative talk show host in my area. I was trying to find out more about some remarks he made towards transgender people that I didn't like, and I found this instead:

http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=1087&go=4

WHO'S PULLING THE PROTESTERS' STRINGS?

I have a question about these massive anti-war protests they’re having around the world.

Who’s pulling the strings?

Who’s behind it and what’s their agenda? And why do they operate in secrecy and anonymity?

Not to sound like some crazy conspiratorialist – like Hillary Clinton or Timothy McVeigh – but the level of orchestration and coordination in these protests and mass demonstrations is so great and so widespread as to require extensive and central command and control.

Translation: Somebody’s in charge.

The question is: Who?

For example, last Saturday as many as three million people in at least a dozen countries met in simultaneous demonstrations in hundreds of cities. All across America, in Asia, in Baghdad, in Paris, in London. Everywhere.

Amazingly, many of them carried the same signs. They chanted the same chants.

How did that happen?

How was the decision made that it would be that Saturday, and not the one before or the one after? And how was it decided it would be a Saturday, instead of a Sunday or a Monday?

How is it that the people in Baghdad happened to be on the same sheet of music as the people in Salt Lake City or Rochester? Ditto for Paris and Bogota and Moscow? How exactly did that happen?

Why is it the sound bites are all the same?

Even at the local level, what kind of extensive coordination is required to get the various gay, environmental, union, women’s and civil rights groups together for the march on city hall? What is that structure and why haven’t we learned more about it?

And why has the news media completely ignored it?

What’s passed for journalism in this matter has been nothing more than public relations for the protesters. And inasmuch as the actual number of people who have seen the protests is relatively miniscule, media coverage of them is where the rubber really meets the road. Media coverage is the purpose and point, and reporters become the most important participants.

Which makes their failure all the more troubling.

Instead of looking into the protest organizations and rooting out their bosses, money sources and agendas, reporters have given themselves over to being press agents for anarchists.

If nothing else, the power behind these protests is a massive, multi-national organization with tremendous resources and abilities to command millions of people.

That’s not insignificant.

And it can’t be refuted.

Some say that this is a grassroots movement, that it arises organically from the will of the people.

That’s a bunch of crap. And anybody who’s ever organized anything knows that. You can’t put a family reunion or a PTA bake sale together without all kinds of hassle and work. And there’s no way a worldwide movement like this just happens.

It happens because somebody made it happen.

And in the interest of disclosure and honesty we have a right and duty to know who that is.

Some say it’s the fruit of the Internet, that people can communicate more freely and like-minded people are merely joining together. But that misses the point. Thought the Internet is widely used to transmit information, it is a means of communication, a tool of command and control.

Internet sites, like the one linked below, are full of Madison Avenue polish and glitz. They are a big-money tool. And they solicit big money, typically asking donors for $100 a pop.

Where does that money go and what does it do?

And how is society affected by these activities? When does protest stop being free speech and start being insurrection?

The answers are not in the public domain.

And they should be.

It’s possible these are just activists, but it is also possible these are enemies. The problem is we can’t know which they are because we don’t know who they are.

The shouting protesters and the TV-camera activists are just pawns.

We’ve got to find out who’s pulling the strings.

It could be a matter of national and world security.

______________

Modular's note: Someone please pass me an enema.

You know what's hysterical about this? It's as if the guy doesn't know the internet exists and was never taught geometric progession in high school, or ever saw or understood that ad with 'Then I told two friends and they told two friends and they told two friends" shit.

It's kind of like what Republican's figured out to do with Direct mail, except it's way more efficient in every way and free.

those pesky aliens broadcasting to my brain tell me where to go and it seems others get the same word because when i follow the directions and go where they say.. there's ALWAYS a group Already There!

Sure, this guy wants to know who's organizing protests. He wants to know the mastermind. 'Cause it could be dangerous.

But he's perfectly comfortable with secret arrests, circumvention of Due Process, secret military tribunals, preventive detention, removal of presidential records and records of Energy Commission meetings, and the destruction of the Constitution and the Freedom of Information Act. 'Cause, you know, all that stuff is so innocuous.
________
STARCRAFT 2REPLAYS

Haha! I just linked to the protest site. Ol' Bob there didn't have it quite right. 'They're asking for $100 a pop.'

Um.... no, Bob. They're asking for $100. That's it.

I love how people twist shit to suit their view. It's a base-level denial, but I can't help but get a kick out of it.
________
Ship sale

Who's behind it?

Ramsey Clark and people like him.

Ramsey Clark as the secret force behind the peace movement?

Did you fall on your head?

And if he was, which obviously he is not, wouldn't it be in the same way Bush is 'behind' the Republican party?

Seriously, Nalds. Do you believe my 'strings' are being 'pulled'?

:lol

CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY! :lol

I love people like this. The anti-war movement scares the crap out of them, so now they need to start rationalizing it in their tiny little brains. There must be an Al Qaeda cell behind it all, or something. :lol

Fantastic. :lol

I KNOW WHO IS BEHIND IT!











SATAN

Not really a followup, but I'd like to say that the author of this article might have his radio show yanked off the air due to some remarks he made, likening a black Democratic Candidate to an Orangutan.

But he'll be replaced by another Republican soon enough, seeing that the county's Republican Committee seems to have a stake in the station.

Hold up. Why are you all so cocky about this? I'm seriously shocked at how easily people toss these concerns aside....because a couple of them should be a huge fucking concern to you.

This isn't just the magic of the internet empowering the people. Someone pays for the bandwidth right? Someone underwrites the majority of costs for the buses that take you to Washington to march. Who does? The majority of major actions are being organized by front organizations. Why? How many people active in the movement are holding these groups accountable? I've asked these questions, both here on the board, and to friends who work as proffesional activists.... and the answers (no pun intended) aren't all that conclusive.

So as stupid as some Republican clown might sound going on about conspiracy theories.... there is something curious about how the Iraqi people could assemble in a choreographed manner, carrying signs written in English, with the exact same slogans as the rest of the world. These are planned photo ops for the sake of the media.
You're talking about a country without a lot of resources or electricity...and the wonders of a grassroots internet campaign only go so far.

I hate to break it to you, buddy, but this editorial dates back to before the preemptive strike. Why are you replying to it now?

"there is something curious about how the Iraqi people could assemble in a choreographed manner, carrying signs written in English, with the exact same slogans as the rest of the world."

the suspicians you have are pretty silly abcd

i think the similarities are simply a result of being faced with the same threat.. bush in power kind of UNITES the world in response to the fascist.

i.e. similar threats thus similar protests

i keep forgetting that one of bushes successes is the creation of the worlds largest peace movement to oppose him. :)

I wasn't kidding. Despite what whiny Liberals say we ARE a global orginisation and we ARE tring to take over the world.

IF we are trying to take over the world, I'd sure as hell rather it be U.S. than them.

Yep, all that stuff is happening as we speak! Because there is no logical reason behind secret arrests or triburnals! There is all that proof of removal of presidental records and the Energy Commission meetings, and Bush is single-handedly destroying the constitution because as you know he has been crusading against things such as the second amendment, the right to worship, and the right to private property!

Go back to your L.D. class, chump change.

I thought you were "not a full Libertarian".

How would you know if there was a logical reason behind a secret rrest or tribunal? Since... well... they're secret?

Don't your 'liberatarian' leanings make you at all wary of the government having the right to secretly detain you without charges or access to a lawyer?

I mean, suppose for a moment, the next president is a *gasp* democrat? Wouldn't it scare you for that president to have those powers? Because of you Liberatarin leanings and all?

Last time I checked, Max, I haven't been wanting to destroy my own fucking country or wanting the Iraqis to win.

Most of the dumbasses today would have been charged with treason 50 years ago. And they would have deserved their punishments.

All these people do is lie and lie and act like Saddam never had WMD when Kennedy, Clinton, Saddam HIMSELF, and others said he had them! And most of these "protestors" that have their backings are being backed by communist fronts. Did you look into that at all?

Neil Boortz is right. The American people are fucking stupid.

What the fuck does this mean?

I can't understand you. I think max is typing oyur posts.

What the fuck are you saying?

Four quick points:

1.) Last time I checked, Vinth, people who use the phrase "haven't been wanting" instead of 'didn't wan't' need a remedial English course.

2.) Same for "that have their backings are being backed".

3.) When you say "Neil Boortz is right. The American people are fucking stupid." Do you mean
A.) You are fucking stupid.
B.) You are not American.
C.) You are not a person.

4.) How does the Sailor Moon costume I routinely force you to wear fit?

The average American is an idiot who knows nothing about how the world works. They vote with their heart and not with their brain. They just want a elected official that is going to give them more of what they think they "deserve" and less of what people can "earn".


Most of this board is under the umbrella of "average American".

Well, sure, but what about points one and two?

They used to say that the commies were behind the old union rallies too ... actually they WERE behind a few of 'em ... meh, but that's neither here nor there ... or here either. Anyway, could the reason behind the rallies be the fact that the people are sick of being unemployed and having their soldiers killed overseas in an action that seems to be making little progress? Just sayin'

A FEW?! >:


You ain't seen a commie union rally, you aint seen a union rally.


I ain't seen any union rallies.

Kelly, why are they unemployed?

What jobs did they do BEFORE the recession hit?

When did the recession start?

Besides the hi-tech jobs going over to India and some manufacturing to other countries, what other skills did these people ever have? If they had good skills to begin with, they would be able to go to another job in a small amount of time.

It's just like the people at the Ford plant here in St. Louis that whine about losing their 60,000 dollar a year job to screw a nut onto a bolt while standing at an assembly line because they worked there for 20+ years and never thought of persuing their education or even thought of the fact they may lose their job and have to do something that took a bit more brains.

Who cares about what Clinton did to destroy peoples jobs and the economy, Kelly could be merely commenting on why they are angry.

I would love to know what you do for a living.

I work in a weird cross between MIS and marketing at this new job I acquired about 2 months ago. I make a nice deal of money. I got the job because a) I go to school and am going to earn two degrees and 2) I worked at jobs that helped me improve various skills, I was always gung-ho with anything I did and d) I'd show backbone when no one else would.

a) What is MIS?

2) Do you go to school or did you mean to say "I went to school..."

It can be known as Management Implamentation Systems or Management Information Systems. Take your pick.

I'm still in college right now.

A.) "A nice deal of money" is meaningless statement, even colloquially.
2.) I'm glad you're certain you'll never be out of work for long. People who are certain nothing bad will; ever happen to them are known for coping really well if it does.
D.) A; 2; D... if it were anyone, anyone else at all, I'd be certain that was on purpose.

I'd hate to get this discussion back on track, but, I thought ANSWER ran most of the big protests?

They had a key role in most of the recent anti-war rallies, but that's a fairly recent phenomenon. Many in "the movement" despise ANSWER anyway, so by the time things got really heated up, ANSWER had kind of taken a secondary role....

I have been wondering, what if we had this kind of media in the 1860s? Would Lincoln have had this problem? Washington? FDR?

And I am also one of those who sincerely doubt all of these are completly spontaneous. I am not saying its some evil organization, but the organization to mobilize this sort of this thing takes serious backing.

Most of it is very grassroots, and you're right, the internet plays a HUGE role. Various interests do donate money, but that has little to do with getting people there. Much of it is word of mouth. www.indymedia.org has also had a BIG role in this....

Ahh, Vince is a budding marketroid. That explains a little bit.

'If you work in advertising or marketing....KILL YOURSELVES' -Bill Hicks. Please do it Vince.

If you mean using the ANSWER banner is a new phenomenon then you're right... but the Workers World Party aren't new. While ANSWER might not be the most beloved, their rallies are widely attended, and uniformely supported, even by their critics. Is it enough to stand in a unified hatred against Bush when your standing alongside those who have supported people like Milosevic?

The point being, these organizations have agendas (because that's what organizations do!) and there is no reason that these politically righteous groups should attempt to water down, or hide their true politics if they truly believe their cause is just....really why should they feel the need to dupe or confuse their supporters? The movement is supposed to be made up of socially conscious and informed people, not pawns. This moral question exists with or without a Bush in the world.

Seriously, two days after the bombing stops, people without natural resources are marching in a country where un-sanctioned assembly is outlawed, their dictatorship government is still un-accounted for, and in several areas, still under Saddam's control....and just by pure inspired hatred for Bush, thousands found markers, large banners, and carried the ecxact duplicate of signs being used by organized and advertised protests in several nations.... all because the wonder that is the internet?????

Also who are Indymedia backed by? Someone told me and I've actually forgotten.

Dole, funny you should metion Hick's little quote. I figured one of the troglodytes would spew it out sooner or later. Sales and marketing people make the world go round, they made hicks money by booking his shows. There is a quote I like which goes “If two people totally agree on something, one of them is unnecessary.” God saw fit to give Hicks a bit of the cancer because we had too many stupid unfunny whiners in our society and George Carlin was tired of some second-rate tub of shit taking his act. He is respected because he died young. Just like JFK, Hendrix, Cobain, etc.

Pern, I make good money and I don't bullshit. That means to them I'm a "breath of fresh air" when all I'm saying to them is common sense.

And why the hell would I tell you all how much money I make

There, hijacking of this thread is over.

God saw fit to give Ronald Reagan Alzheimers. God saw fit to give Lee Atwater a brain Tumor. God saw fit to give you bi-polar disorder. God saw fit to kill your dad. God saw fit to let two airplanes hit the twin towers and kill a few thousand innocent people. God saw fit to let two the towers collapse on firemen and policemen trying to evacuate the building. That's swell God you believe in Matilda. Personlly, I think God is going to send you to hell for being such a man spirited sack of crap. I don't think you deserve eternal damnation, but God's much more petty than I am.

Now, having dealt with the man whom God tells who he kills and why;



I went to two large anti war protests. No one paid my way their. I went because I was an am morally opposed to the war. I learned about one on the news and one from an email forwarded to me by a friend.

So, who pulled my strings? I have access to the same information and the same media as everyone else. I can and do sort through it like everyone else. Sure, various causes and interest try to convince me or manipulate me in multiple directions. Are the pro war folks not subject to the exact same influences?

What aspects of the 'organization' do you see as requiring some sort of shadowy cabal? Permits? Booking speakers?

Even if there were some Cabal, isn't it possible that lots of people agree with them? Aren't you choosing to call a movement a cabal?

Who's pulling thr 'strings' at the upcoming Republican convention in NYC? That requires a massive amount of money and organization! Why it's the secret cabal, the Republican Party!

I find being told my political beliefs and actions are the result of string pulling. A big hearty fuck you to anyone who thinks so.

There are a variety of reasons that the auto industries fluctuate. I know a number of people that would get laid off during model change over for about a month every year while the engineers and millrights make their modifications to the assembly line. It's a natural part of the business. It's a fragile market. Something like the WTC getting destroyed can create reprecussions that set the market back for years. Another part of it is that foreign manufacturers have the reputation of making better quality cars right now. While I don't think that the gap in quality is a big as it used to be, the reputation persists and it may take the american market years to bounce back. Add to that the fact that the union's were probably thinking too short sighted in offering the union workers some of the wages they receive without looking to see whether the market was there for the consequently high prices (which was necessary to maintain their desired profit margin) on their cars.

I would think that a lot of them were doing skilled labor manufacturing jobs but not necessarily so. A wide spectrum of jobs were also hit by the recession. What difference does it make? They were employed and paying their fair share of taxes.

What do you mean by "good" skills. Their skills ARE their job. If the market is not there, their job is not there. It's not like the jobs that, say, your mother might get for you at an assisted living place. Are you saying that they should be punished to be putting their time, money, and training into a manufacturing job? While I'm not saying that the assembly line jobs are not important, there are a lot of people that have skilled jobs like engineers, mill rights, electricians, ect that rely on the auto manufacturers for their paycheck as well.


You are obviously talking in the abstract because I've known a lot of these guys and a good number of them are intelligent people ... sort of like when you were spouting off about the military ... another subject you obviously didn't know shit about other than what you'd heard or seen in the movies. If you were fortunate enough to make union wages and the union promised that you'd have it for your working life, you'd probably take the job. A lot of those guys make more money than people with a four-year degree. Hell, a lot of them HAVE four-year degrees and couldn't find work in their respective fields. That doesn't make labor a LOWER job in the heirarchy, just a DIFFERENT job. If you ever had to go out on your own and bust your ass for 40-60 hours a week, you'd know that. You're so far removed from reality ... it's ... it's just amusing really.

Yeah, I don't work or nothing... idiot. I work over 40+ hours a week at 6 days a week. I am also on call. Sorry to disappoint your view of me not doing anything. But I love how that is everyone's counterpoint. "Oh, if you had to do this or that, you wouldn't say anything."

I’ve worked at shit jobs and now I have a great one. I earned it. I went out and was the best person for the job. A lot of those people that earn more money than people with degrees are being paid those highway robbery wages because of the unions. I know janitors that don’t do shit that get paid 70,000 a year. I also know the extreme side of people that are overworked and underpaid. I used to be that. I don’t feel sorry for the uneducated janitor that doesn’t have his 70,000/yr job when someone can do it for 30,000. That is good economics.

I wouldn’t join a union out of principle. I’m an individual and I want my compensation based on my value to the company, not some commie-fuck group effort. I’m my own person, not a cog in some union machine.

Edit: Kelly, if I learned everything about the military from the movies, I would think they were nothing more than murderous, rapists pawns in a U.S. war machine. In other words, I would be a leftist retard.

Vinthy, God is going to give you a little of the cancer for telling so many lies.

You sound a lil' jealous, Vinth. Are you gonna cry now? :wah

No, he'll just sue when he gets fired for being an idiot.

Right, but regarding their involvement in having lead roles in organizing the more recent (and large) American protests, this is relatively new....

It has been their critics who have blown open the contradictions in this organization, and yes, much like nations and real human beings often choose strange bed fellows, the protest movement has been no different.

However, the news about ANSWER took time to travel. I went to one of their rallies in DC almost two years ago, and at the time was not very familiar with them. After I had become more aware, I chose not to attend. The last massive rally in NYC deliberately excluded ANSWER to a great extent, primarily because of their background...


ANSWER isn't merely the Workers World Party with a new name. If you think that, you're wrong. It serves as an umbrella group, involving many who could care less about global socialism, or whatever.

Have any examples??

I'm refraining from making a snide comment....

IMC spawned from the '99 Seattle protest. It started as a few folks with video recorders and some computer know-how. If you think the internet hasn't been the key catalyst behind these things, or if you think something even more absurd like it's being financed by a collective of some evil Islamic OPEC tycoons, you're nuts (and really quite ironic). I've been active in these rallies, and I've had bit roles in organization here and there. IndyMedia in Austin just had a pot luck dinner to raise finances. IndyMedia back in my home city of Albany have no dough at all. Their Al Quada checks must've gotten lost in the mail. :/

Indymedia isn't a geocities site. Your bake sales are a drop in the bucket to pay for the bandwidth that keeps the main umbrella site running.

Indymedia is a curated site with the socialist agenda of the larger organization it came from. The people who founded it continue to promote ASNWER events, and have consciously decided to continue their relationship with them. It's my understanding they've also recieved fiscal support from them too. These rallies are all expenditures....full time activists are an expenditure... promotion is an expenditure.... press releases are expenditures... staffing and organizing a rally comes with expenditures.... owning a computer, a pda, or a cell phone and whatever other tools being exploited by grass roots activists are ALL expenditures.

Foriegn governments have been involved in the radical movement for years without apology... it's only recently that they've began to obscure this fact. Most of the seed groups that people like Not in Our Name or ANSWER grew out of used to openly admit this. It's not a secret that Lybia sponsored the SDS, The Black Panthers, The Weather Underground, the Nation of Islam, and a slew of other political groups who were all very proud of it.

So a conspiracy might be far fetched, but there is some truth to the claims that foriegn governments are funding dissent. It's not that much different then when we drop leaflets in Afghanistan, or whatever. It's just scary that supposedly politically aware Americans can think they're above this, or think they're so self righteous that they can make a joke out of the possibility that they're pawns.

"So a conspiracy might be far fetched, but there is some truth to the claims that foriegn governments are funding dissent. "

See, that's what's great about America. We never pull that kind of crap. Plus, our conservative movements never get any funding at all from other countries.

i found this interesting and scary .. is it true?
mostly it seems.. but just because the funding is odd doesnt mean the people working with the funds share the agendas.

ALTERNATIVE MEDIA CENSORSHIP:
SPONSORED BY CIA's FORD FOUNDATION? http://www.questionsquestions.net/gatekeepers.html


indymedia has been funded by many groups but mostly its paid for by people who WORK FOR FREE.. i volunteer at indymedia centers and find the people there are folks that think the major media outlets ignore news from the people..
INDY media is INDEPENDANT MEDIA.. open to anyone who wants to publish.. ANYONE.. stop by and visit one www.indymedia.org look for the "Publish" button.. its available to all who care to post. open media like the rest should be.. call it what you like but you will find right wing and left wing socialist, and capitalist info on them.. activists tend to shock people with news that's not told anywhere else so its natural that it will be under attack.. i hear it every day.. "America wouldn't do THAT" "i can't believe my country would do THAT .. yer a wackko!!!" "you america haters make me sick" :lol

IndyMedia still has an agenda. The "Publish" part of IndyMedia only functions as a glorified bulletin board for their "newswire" forum and as they say, "when someone abuses our trust, and posts a story that is way outside what the website is set up to do, we may remove it". I know of several instances where legit posts were published and removed because it contradicted Indymedia's stance.

Just because people donate their time to work for them doesn't mean they're a pure upstanding organization. Also - Being a non-profit doesn't mean you can't make a profit.

Indymedia has a "who owns that" section, tracking conglomorate media ownership. Ironic that they promote actions without any resources for who and what the specific groups in the movement are. While the radical left has become critical of ANSWER in the past year, they were most certainly aware of the Workers World Party connections before now. They helped to obscure who groups like ASNWER are run by. In fact, their site even obscures their own connection to the Independent Progressive Politics Network, and makes little mention that it was formed mainly by Dan Merkle. Their legacy is Protest.Net, and Paper Tiger TV amongst others. The IPPN recieves funding through connections to the Alliance for Democracy, a socialist group, and that would mean money has probably filtered in through the Democratic Socialists of America. Dan Merkle has been outspoken in supporting ANSWER, despite recent criticisms, and pledged to continue supporting their rallies, because as he puts it, anyone in their position, with their success, is likely to have some dirt on them.

So now we've gone from laughing at the concept, to just flat our saying "hey who cares". Sure America does it, but isn't that why we find the need to use our right to free speech and dissent against our nations policies? Would it make more sense to allign with some OTHER nations fucked up policies instead? Is it okay to support Milosevic just because he's not an American President?

Aren't you displeased to hear that you could go to a rally that you think is to simply stop war, and find out that the organizers have had financial ties with Saddam Hussein? Doesn't that make you uncomfortable in light that you scoff at the idea that being anti-war makes you pro-saddam?

Yeah, and for every one of those instances, there are 60 posts that read as "FUCK YOU11 COMMIE FUCKERS!!1!! DIE, FUCKIN, DIE!!" on the website. There is dire need for censorship and mediated discretion on that page, hate to say it. It certainly isn't a reliable news outlet, but that posting section isn't the crux of the page (although many would like to pretend it is).

So what if they have an agenda? Their agenda is to create a grassroots news outlet that isn' corporate owned. They certainly have a political agenda, bt so does every other news outlet to one degree or another.

Wait, wait, wait...can you substantiate this at all, or are you just saying this...? AFD was a group founded by Ronnie Dugger, a guy who considers himself more of a populist than a Socialist. They model themselves as an "organic" organization based upon the populist movements that came out of the anti-monopoly movement in the later 19th Century. Sure, they argue for equity and such, but so does the Democratic Party at times. What verified links can you make between them and the DSA, and even if they are affiliated, what exactly would that prove?

Again, you glossed over this, but they ARE in fact an umbrella organization. Merkle is right, although his unyielding support for them is not.

if i go to a rally for breast cancer research that has "secretly" been organized by a bunch of flat world society freaks, it will still be a breast cancer research rally. hidden messages aren't the messages that get across the loudest.

the loudest message behind the massive protests against the war in iraq was "look at all these people who look nothing alike and who probably would never be together otherwise uniting against one issue- the war in iraq." i don't have to like answer itself to attend a rally that they have had a hand in organizing.

I like responding to things, do you?

kevin - we agree. most every news forum of any kinda has an agenda. we know fox isn't fair and balanced right?... why should anyone be mislead into thinking indymedia is without an agenda too? that isn't to say they shouldn't be allowed to have one. as for their socialists connections... IPPN removed the pages on their site that listed the endorsements from various socialist groups but i'll double check my info if i can...anyways i doubt indymedia fans would care about these connections.... my point really is that i don't think the information should be obscured. old timers in the protest game knew exactly who a.n.s.w.e.r were long before it became common knowledge.

incurable - it's more like attending a breast cancer rally organized by a pharmecutical company that's been lobbying to block another company from curing cancer their own way.

call me crazy, but i find it short sighted and irresponsible to disregard what a conflict of interest it is to attend an anti-war rally organized by a group that endorsed the tinnamen square massacres. it's because of these loose associations with violence that the movement lost momentum for decades.

just to add to my last post...

some would say our occupation of iraq is the closest we've come to vietnam in thirty years, and that might account for a percieved loss of momentum during that time span. perhaps.... then again, when the black panther party have reunions, the tears and remorse aren't due to a lack of unifying issues.

again - i just believe this is a murky topic that people shouldn't toss aside so easily.

I'll align with anybody that believes in peaceful protest of violent 'solutions' to almost anything..

you could be any religion.. i'll support your event if its peacefull.
you could be from any party, any philosophy but you MUST agree that violence is not a solution.

commies don't scare me, socialists don't scare me... satanists don't scare me.. catholics don't scare me.. nra members scare me a little, but who the hell cares what we disagree with if we are coming together to support a single(main) idea?

i value diversity and enjoy different oppinions/philosophies..
most of the people in ANSWER have peaceful agendas.. what's so scary about them?

i think mono-culturists(xeno-phobes) of anykind and those who want to enforce it (with violence or dishonesty) scare me the most.

"most of the people in ANSWER have peaceful agendas.. what's so scary about them? "

I encourage you to do a little research then decide for yourself. Plenty of pro-radical, pro-leftist information that will explain what their critics find very scary about them, and how they have supported violence in the recent past.

While I would of coourse be disturbed to find that pro-wahhtever folks had financed an event I'd attended, if their agenda is so secret that even I attending don't know about it, I don't feel in particularly used.

Here's my agenda. ncrease by one the number of people in media coverage saying they don't like our foreign policy. Period. In my opinion, the pro whatver group is the one who has been used. My participation cost me zero. There's cost more I assume. The message of any large scale protest like the ones I went to is very simple, not honed or nuanced.

I think you are swayed by a propoganda initiative to get you to believe that the protests are meaningless. Concider this. What if, say 98% of the attendees had no idea that their permit and the speakers platform were paid for by pro-wahteverists. Sort of like the innocent frat bpys that stormed the vote counts in florida who's busses were paid for by the Reubican national comittee. It didn't make me doubt the frat boys sincerity for an instant.

this is really depressing. as if it wasn't bad enough when people were making the "hey the crazy right wing fuckers do it all the time!" excuse. doesn't anyone believe in integrity?

look, i believe the protests had plenty of meaning to plenty of people... and that's why nobody wants to consider these rallies beyond face value. thinking you're empowered by your ignorance is just a fools rational. while you might view yourself as some fucking one man political army, your attendance is a financial commodity for ANSWER.

if i attended something advertised as a "march for peace" in support of israel, and it was organized by a group called "jews like peace" that turned out to be a front for the jewish defense league, and kahane chai, (two militant jewish groups so extreme, they've called for sharon's death because he's too leniant), then i would feel incredibly decieved and outraged. now i might actually agree with a good 80% of their stance.... but that last 20% is really fucking scary... really scary....and it goes against the entire premise of a peace march. now apply your own excuses to my situation, and tell me how i'd be using these people by lending my presence to their marches...or why i shouldn't care, cause hey, they said it was a peace march, after all? i don't attend their rallies, because i don't agree or trust their agenda.... and they're up to some ridiculous shit that i wouldn't want to inadvertantly be supporting.

Did you give them your credit card number?

what exactly is it you think ANSWER did for the peace rallies. What do you think they paid for and what do you think they got out of it? I'll admit to ignorance on the subject, I already have, but the coverage I saw of the peace marches mentioned my agenda and never said Squat about Answer.

In the hypothetical situation you mentioned, if your message got out loud and clear and ''sponsorship' by your shadowy string pullers didn't, I'd say they failed. If, unbeknownst to you, they paid for the bottled water I would in no way think you'd been compromised by drinking it or that your message had been, forgive me, "dilluted". If any attempts to coop your message were utterly drowned out by your message I might not even know.

Do you think this is why Bush belittles the peace marches? He wouldn't care one way or the other, he says their focus groups. While I would of course like to know that every peace rally was only about my personal vision of peace, I think I'm unlikely to get that.

What system would you suggest to strain the impurities from a large scale rally? How rigorous should they be and how long should a given event be postponed until purity of message is achieved? All sides of every issue are always vulnerable to being manipulated. You yourslef may have been manipulated to believe so strongly that 'strings have been pulled'. I'm not excusing this by saying 'everybody does it'. That's a misread, although I think it ironic that the same standards are only taken seriously when applied to the left wing. Remeber how absurd Ms. Clinton looked when she talked about a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy? The left is, if anything, far less organized and conspiracy capable than the right. Conspiracy takes discipline.

Hey I hear the NRA put up sponsorship money for these great "uphold the constitution" rallies! You love the constitution right? Gonna go?

You went to a rally, you felt good about yourself making a difference having your opinion heard, and you watched the news and heard them minimize the passion, and the turnout... and six months later you don't have a clue or care that one of the fiscal sponsors of the march actually endorses a long list of dictators including saddam hussein...and i'm not talking about protecting saddam's government from american imperialism, i'm talking they full on love the guy and everything he's done, and made yearly visits to meet with him.

What the right wing fuck ups do isn't really a great argument for what the left wing fuck ups do. I don't allign myself with any label really, and when I hear about fucked up shit... it's still fucked up shit...and people should care that a movement is being coopted and being corrupted no matter what the media perception of it is...and let me remind you that a lot of news outlets portrayed the marches as supporting Saddam.

Burbank, you've been posting in this thread for several weeks...plenty of time to give a shit and do the research for yourself... or ask your activist friends what kind of costs go into these rallies and what kindof financial involvement ANSWER or even NION have.

I think it's possible you're getting hysterical. Am I to assume that you have never and will never engage in a demonstration?

Where does you information on ANSWER come from? Have you exhaustively looked into who paid for the webpage, or the journal or wherevr you found it? I'm thinking perhaps vested interests play a very large part in much of the information you read and digest. ne might even suggest your strings were being pulled.

But I'm not suggesting that. Why do you suppose that is?

yeah, totally hysterical. is it less energy to just fake an opinion then doing research of your own first? try this for starters,,,,

http://authoritarianopportunistswhoc...-forpeace.org/

you talk about demonstrations with the romantic naivety of someone who views them as some status event. i know you're an army of one and all but they're rarely supposed to be self help seminars.

You're totally reading in, and that's one of the main reasons I think you're aa hysteric. I'm not romantic about the demo's and I didn't imagine they have any sort of direct or immediatte impact. I wanted to go so I'd see them and have been there, and so the crowd would be increased by one.

I'll check your link.