Israel enters Lebanon
 

NY Times

July 12, 2006

Israeli Forces Enter Lebanon After 2 Soldiers Are Seized
By GREG MYRE and STEVEN ERLANGER

JERUSALEM, July 12 — The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah seized two Israeli soldiers and killed three more in a brazen raid this morning along Israel’s border with Lebanon. Israel immediately responded by sending an armored force into southern Lebanon for the first time since withdrawing six years ago.

The clashes dramatically escalated tensions at a time when Israel already is waging a military offensive in the Gaza Strip to seek the return of another soldier held by Palestinian militants for more than two weeks.

Israel’s Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he held the Lebanese government responsible for the assault by Hezbollah, the Shiite Muslim group that participates in Lebanese politics but also continues to battle Israel.

“I want to make clear that the event this morning is not a terror act, but an act of a sovereign state that attacked Israel without reason,” Mr. Olmert said. “The government of Lebanon, of which Hezbollah is a part, is trying to shake the stability of the region.”

The United Nations representative to southern Lebanon, Gier Pedersen, condemned Hezbollah’s capture of the Israeli soldiers and said it “escalates the already tense situation.”

The Lebanese government did not comment in the hours after the clashes began. Hezbollah effectively controls Lebanon’s southern border despite international pressure and a United Nations resolution calling on the Lebanese government to take control of its borders and disarm militia groups.

While Israel has overwhelming military might in both southern Lebanon and Gaza, Hezbollah and the militant Palestinian faction Hamas both have leverage in the form of the captured Israeli soldiers, raising the possibility of duel confrontations that could carry on indefinitely.

Israel says it will not negotiate, and is demanding the unconditional release of its soldiers and an end to the rocket fire coming out of Gaza and southern Lebanon.

Hamas and Hezbollah, meanwhile, are seeking the release of large numbers of Arab prisoners held by Israel.

Just two years ago, Hezbollah managed to win the freedom of more than 400 Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners in exchange for an Israeli businessman who was being held in Lebanon and the corpses of three Israeli soldiers killed in a Hezbollah attack along the border in 2000.

Today’s fighting erupted when Hezbollah attacked northern Israel with rocket fire in the morning, injuring several Israeli civilians in the northwestern town of Shlomi, the Israeli military said. Israel responded with artillery fire and air strikes that targeted roads, bridges and Hezbollah strongholds in southern Lebanon. Later, Israeli troops moved into southern Lebanon in the first such incursion since Israel pulled its troops back into Israel in 2000.

The Israeli strikes were part of an apparent attempt to keep Hezbollah from moving the captured Israeli soldiers further to the north. Also, at least two Lebanese civilians were killed, according to Reuters.

The Israeli military did not immediately provide details on the border clashes.

While cross-border shooting exchanges break out with some frequency, it has been exceedingly rare for Hezbollah and the Israeli military to come face-to-face on the ground over the past six years.

But Hezbollah said its fighters seized two soldiers along the volatile and heavily guarded frontier. “The two captives were transferred to a safe place,” the group said in a statement.

It said the kidnappings had been planned for months and were intended to help free Arabs held in Israeli jails in a prisoner exchange.

Residents in Lebanon’s Shiite-dominated southern suburbs handed out sweets and set off firecrackers in celebration.

In the past, Hezbollah has launched attacks against Israel when there is heavy fighting between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The latest assault comes at a moment when the region is already roiling with the Israeli-Palestinian crisis in Gaza.

Early today, Israeli troops moved in force into central Gaza, expanding the two-week-old Israeli offensive intended to secure the release of the captured soldier and stop rocket fire into Israel.

The Israeli air force also dropped a powerful bomb on a home in Gaza City at around 3 a.m., saying it targeted senior Hamas leaders. But the blast killed nine members of the Abu Selmiya family, according to Dr. Juma Saqqa, the spokesman for Shifa Hospital, where the bodies were taken.

There were visiting Hamas leaders in the house at the time of the bombing, but they escaped with only minor injuries, Palestinians said.

Nabil Abu Selmiya, a Hamas leader, was killed along with his wife, Salwa, and seven of their children, ages 7 to 18, Dr. Saqqa said. The couple also had two sons who survived the attack, and a married daughter who lives elsewhere.

The Israeli military said the main target was Muhammad Deif, the top figure in Hamas’s armed wing and a man who has been sought by Israel for more than a decade. The Israeli military said Mr. Deif, who has been blamed for the deaths of dozens of Israelis, was injured.

Hamas officials refused to say whether Mr. Deif was at the house at the time of the bombing, but insisted that he was safe.

Just after midnight, scores of Israeli tanks, armored personnel carriers and armored bulldozers, covered by Apache attack helicopters and armed drones, crossed into central Gaza near Kissufim.

Clearing roads and firing tank shells, the troops moved southeast of the town of Deir al Balah, into the neighborhood of Abu Alajeen, residents there said. At least one Palestinian, a member of the official security forces, died in an exchange of fire with Israeli troops, and another was wounded, according to a Palestinian journalist living in Abu Alajeen, as the sound of tank shell explosions made him difficult to hear over the phone.

Israelis are also interrupting local radio stations to broadcast a warning in Arabic that “the Israeli Army is going to continue its operation in the Gaza Strip until the captive soldier is released.” The broadcast says:

“Israel is interested in your well-being. Is this the welfare that Hamas promised you?”

The message warns Palestinians not to allow militants to fire rockets into Israel.

Militants tried to fire makeshift rockets toward the Kissufim border crossing as a column of dozens of armored vehicles and hundreds of soldiers pushed into central Gaza, but the rockets appeared to fall short, Reuters reported.

“Our main target is the terrorist infrastructure: the rocket crews, the gunmen, the arms caches,” said an Israeli commander who was not allowed to give his full name, according to a pool report.

“But of course we are here to show that if, God forbid, any of us is captured by the enemy, the army will do everything to secure his return,” he said.

The army confirmed only that its troops had entered central Gaza. The Israelis want to ensure that the captured soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, is not moved out of Gaza. He was captured on June 25 during a raid into Israel.

Greg Myre reported from Jerusalem for this articleand Steven Erlangerfrom Gaza City. Hassan Fattah contributed reporting from Dubai.

I'm still not so sure Israel realizes they're at war, yet.
Olmert's started saying he'd indirectly return prisoners and negotiate with Hamas this week.
The article doesn't mention Syria even once, which is curious.
Some reports are saying the two soldiers captured were from one of the IDF's unit of Druze.

So is this the one where we're all doomed, or is that the next one?

Alright, I am sympathetic towards israel and their need to defend themselves. And I agree that what Hezbollah did was outrageous and deserving of action.

But was absolutely no diplomatic option available aside from this? Would it be impossible to ask other parties to pressure Lebanon to reign in on Hezbollah, and assist in finding the two IDF soldiers?

Is the Lebanese government SUCH a Syrian puppet that this wouldn't be an option?

What is President Bush, Tony Blair, and co. doing? This whole thing seems to be unraveling really, really fast, and it doesn't seem to have provoked the appropriate response from the West.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5175160.stm

Israel attacks Beirut's airport

Israeli aircraft have fired rockets at the runways of Beirut's international airport in Lebanon, forcing its closure and the diversion of flights.
It follows the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah militants.

Meanwhile, 10 civilians were killed in fresh Israeli air raids in southern Lebanon, security sources said.

Israeli jets have pounded targets in southern Lebanon in retaliation for the soldiers' capture. Israel has said it holds Lebanon responsible.

The Beirut airport is Lebanon's only international airport.

It is located in the Lebanese capital's Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs.

Shortly after Israeli shells began falling on the runways, a senior airport official announced the facility was closed and asked scheduled flights to divert to Cyprus.

Israeli PM Ehud Olmert said the soldiers' capture was an "act of war", but Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah insisted the two would only be returned via talks.

Mr Olmert said he held Beirut responsible, but Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the Hezbollah operation and refused to take responsibility for the soldiers' capture.
----

In a related story.....

This story just amazes me. To have the head of "political" Hamas, housed in SYRIA, present himself as the chief negotiating power in Palestine boggles my mind.

" Whether you want it or not, I am the only partner you can speak to about the release of prisoners and suspending the Qassam rocket attacks. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/736816.html

'I'm the man,' Meshal says in first comments since crisis broke

By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff

The first speech yesterday by Khaled Meshal, the Damascus-based head of Hamas' political bureau, since the abduction of Corporal Gilad Shalit was intended mainly to reinforce his leadership position vis-a-vis both Palestinians and Israel. His statements contained little real news. He reiterated the Hamas promise not to hurt Shalit and the position that he would be released only in exchange for the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel.

What Meshal did do was to declare that he and not the chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, in Ramallah, or Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in Gaza, is the sole spokesman for the Palestinian people in the territories and beyond.

:chatter

To answer your question...YES! So much so, that attacking Lebanon and holding their government responsible doesn't make any obviouse sense. The only explanation is that Syria just signed a mutual defense pact with Iran, so if Israel attacks Syria, it will be seen as an attack on Iran too. I don't know what diplomatic option there is - Syria supports terror, occupies Lebanon, and has timed these kidnappings AND rocket attacks into central Israel, kibbutzes and the like, all as a strong provocation.

Diplomacy failed back in October, 2000 when Israeli soldiers, and some civilians were kidnapped by Hizzbalah, while UN peace keepers video taped portions of the incident. The UN wouldn't even release the tapes which Israel hoped would identify the kidnappers, and offer clues....I'm simplifying the whole ordeal, but long story short, Israel only just recently got the remains of the Israeli hostages.

I do not understand any of this shit. I don't understnd any strategic gain from what Hezbollah is doing, and I don't understand what Israel could possibly hope to gain from collective punishment in gaza and attacking the aiprort in Lebanon. It's like some sort of hideous rush to death.

Has anyone ever checked what's in middle eastern water? Everyone over there is nuts.

Although I think the actions in Gaza have been a bit excessive, I feel the "government" in Gaza (and Hamas) has left Israel with little choice. If they find that kidnapping soldiers is effective, they will keep doing it over and over again.

I don't like the idea of power being cut off for entire sections of Gaza, but when you have outside entities (see Hamas article above) using Gaza as a launching point for attacks, something has to be done.

The government there needs to control their borders and eliminate their criminal, terrorist elements. They have failed to do either.

The reason I haven't posted about this is a have no ideas at all about solutions. It is just open season for crazies over there. And yeah, you can't allow people to think kidnapping works, but you can't allow people to think creating a humanitarian crisis works either. There's nothing going on but can't allow stuff and it looks like it's spiralling very quickly. I can't imagine anyone in any faction wants to see everybody die and surely they aren't all 100 percent insane.

It makes me think of WWI where all parties thought all other parties had left them no choice.

The Middle East needs a good solid war, IMO. One where you have trenches and tanks and soldiers kneedeep in the shit, not this fire a missile from 1000 miles away stuff. The West needs to sit back and let it happen, and it has to be so utterly devastating to everyone involved that when it's over, everyone looks around and goes, "holy fuck, what just happened?"

They need to get it out of their system once and for all. Peaceful solutions won't work as long as both sides still think they are more clever and/or superior than the other side. The Israelis sit there all smug with their high-tech military, while the Muslims never drop the retarded "you stole the land we stole from the people who stole it from you thousands of years ago while we were mucking around in shitholes" attitude.

:(

Problem solved.

Next!

I'm not sure I understand the power plant thing either, but there have been a steady stream of trucks with humanitarian aid ever since, and I believe there are generators or backups so that the grid they hit can function on a partial basis. In other words, it's not exactly the crisis they will play it out to be (unless being cut off from the World Cup is a crisis, and since Hamas h

The plant was built by a UAE commpany to replace a grid originally provided to them by Israel. Prior to that, there was no running water or electricity in Gaza, at all. I believe the statement is "if you attack the people who provide you with your resources, then it hurts you too". The kicker is the power plant was insured by the USA, for 50 mil., even aganst acts of terrorism.

They really are all nuts out there, but I think you're confusing the hip terminology like "collective punishment" with outright war tactics. When you go to war, you do hit your enemies bridges, and power, and airports, and air strips. [/i]

I'll share the money with all of you when I win the Nobel Peace Prize.

how very noble of you!

Rockets just hit an Israeli Arab village in Haifa - others hit and damaged a a Kibbutz. They're not even being subtle in trying to provoke a war at this point.

Edit: attacks from border to border - over 70 rockets with heavy targeting of Arab Israeli citizens.

looks like another wave of airstrikes targeted Hezbollah's headquarters.

I like the idea of Israel projecting a little power.

Easy...

Who benefits from the kidnappings?

"by way of deception thou shalt do war..."

US is the only one defending Israel's actions...obviously :rolleyes

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/p...icle_662.shtml

:)

Hezbollah needs you, Geggy! Don't let the Zionist Imperialists do this! GO FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT, GEGSTER!

Yeah, I mean, it makes good sense for the U.S. to support a UN resolution that was sponsored by Qatar and probably drafted by Iran. Idiot.

NY Times

Israel Extends Strikes Deeper Into Lebanon
By HASSAN M. FATTAH and STEVEN ERLANGER

Published: July 14, 2006
BEIRUT, Lebanon, Friday, July 14 — Israel extended punishing airstrikes deeper inside Lebanon today, hitting areas in Beirut’s suburbs linked to the militant group Hezbollah and cutting the main highway between the capital and Damascus in Syria.
--

Yikes.

The big argument is not whether Israel has the right to react. That's a moot point. The argument seems to be whether or not they're overreacting.

I'm curious what will be said at G8 of all this, and if anything remotely useful will come of it.

I wouldn't count on a damn thing coming out of the G8, or the UN for that matter, God bless their hearts.

I think there is an argument to be had over the measures Israel is taking, however a lot of the people I hear raising that issue are the same knee-jerk, ignorant idiots who wait in the high grass for the right moment to attack Israel. Like last night, a talk radio host was talking about how Israel creates this kind of Arab reaction, and of course, they've been doing it "since a bunch of European Jews decided they were entitled to Arab land."

I think we need to try to get France involved in this, and some kind of diplomatic emergency envoy needs to take place. Israel needs to be in the room, Lebanon needs to be in the room, and perhaps even Syria.

Lebanon MUST disarm Hezbollah, and control their soutrhern borders. If they can't do this b/c of Syria, or iran, then Israel has every right to secure the Lebanese border and cut off transfer to Syria/Iran.

I would like to see Israel stand down a bit, but I don't think that can happen unless these other things can be guaranteed.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/14/D8IRSFG0A.html

Palestinians Stream Into Gaza From Egypt
Jul 14 12:34 PM US/Eastern

By DIAA HADID
Associated Press Writer


RAFAH, Gaza Strip

Militants forced open a border gate between Egypt and Gaza on Friday, wounding an Egyptian officer and letting hundreds of Palestinians who had been trapped on the Egyptian side of the border to get into Gaza.

Armed militants stood by as people carrying suitcases crossed into Gaza. Some walked through on crutches while others walked or ran through the gate.

Egyptian police Capt. Mohammed Abdel Hadi said masked Palestinian militants firing guns broke into the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing, clearing the way for the trapped Gazans.

One Egyptian border policeman was wounded when the militants stormed the frontier, said Abdel Hadi, who heads police on the Egyptian side of Rafah.

The crossing, Gaza's main gateway to the outside world, has largely been closed since June 25, when Palestinian militants carried out a raid on a military outpost, killing two Israeli soldiers and capturing one.

Hundreds of people have been stranded on the Egyptian side, unable to get to their homes in Gaza.

Rafah's closure left hundreds of Palestinians who work and study in Egypt stranded, while preventing hundreds of others from leaving the coastal area to receive medical treatment abroad.

Last week, a 26-year-old Palestinian woman suffering from cancer died at the border while waiting to be allowed into Gaza.

Geggy- Canada has publicly supported Israel, and initial statements have Saudi Arabia placing full blame on Hezballah.

Ziggy - half the country is living in bomb shelters, and Iran's President has announced this will be the demise of Israel. There was an Arab League style meeting only a week ago where it was voted to take action against Israel, and here we see the results. This isn't about a few kidnapped soldiers. Unilateral gestures for peace are what got Israel in this predicament. They need to hit harder, because if they stumble, Iran will cut Israel's pipelines...and if Israel falls, you can expect a third front on this war with Iran heading into Iraq. They have their eyes on a map with a map where the Mid-East is Islamic from Iran all the way to Egypt. Maybe you're not aware what kind of attacks ISrael withstood in the past 24 hours?

Kevin - that's Egypt's version of an "Apparthaid wall", only nobody mentions it. Palestinians have to go through checkpoints to work in Egypt, so whenever things get tense, Egypt cuts them off, and inevitably, the Palestinians blow a hole through the wall and start running backand forth like loons. It's easier then tunnels. So when Israel went into Gaza, Egypt just cut off the Palestinians, which meant the day laborers were sleeping in the streets waiting for them to reopen.

About Lebanon - you've probably read, theres a strange amoung of support within Lebanon for Israel to finally take care of their Hizzbalah problem. I think most ideals would be to see Lebanon fight back against Syria and join up with Israel, rather then take the brunt of these attacks.

I have not read of this, would you happen to have any links or sources on that?

As a follow up to that, I found this: http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/

It's funny, b/c some Left-wing radio hater last night said "don't trust the media on this! Go to this website!"

Well here's a good posting:

and.....

Mind you, I'm not saying any Lebanese are overjoyed to have a crater size hole in the runway of their brand new airport, but....


http://www.free-lebanon.com/


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275366,00.html


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275338,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275319,00.html


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...274939,00.html


That's pretty much the standard coming from Lebanese blogs and posts on Pro-Israel message boards. On one hand, there is anger for a misdirected response, while on the other, they are supprotive that Israel is doing something and dropping the leaflets to avoid civilians casualties.

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora called on Saturday for an immediate ceasefire, saying Israeli attacks had turned Lebanon into a disaster area in need of international aid.

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jh...rc=ActiveBuddy

Go israel! Go, go, go! Israel! Israel! Israel!

If the Lebanese PM actually had any power that would mean something.

Maybe he should check with Syria and Iran before he says anything else.

Geggy, if I could get the cash together, would you go fight the good fight with Hezbollah???

Geggy? Do you fully grasp the ramifications if

a) Israel falls.
b) Iran and Korea join forces, and jump in.


Do you? This goes beyond any romanticism towards oppressed Arabs, or your hatred for Jews. Think.

Geggy, are you around, or are you busy playing anarchist role playing games again?

Add France, and the G-8 summit nations backing Israels right to self defense.

Add Egypt, Jordan, and even the Palestinian Authority to Saudi Arabia's condemnation of Hizzbalahs provocations.

I know you'll be sad when your Kaffiyeh goes out of style, but aren't you going to be happy if we get a liberated Lebanon out of all this?

As naive and uninformed as this is going to sound, I really don't know very much about the whole Israel/Palestine thing, PERIOD, which is why I've never come in any Israel/Palestine thread and stated my belief on it.

I guess to say I'm uninformed is a little more honest than screaming "Free Palestine!" or "Go Israel!" or something like that.

Right, but Ahmadinejad says Israel is acting like Hitler here. Who are you going to believe in all this, huh???

So Korea's flaunting long range weapons, Israel is invading lebanon, and India is outright pinning the mumbia train blast on the Pakistani government.

Why does it feel like the world is going to hell in a hand basket this week?

It's outright freakish how Israel and India got attacked, and yet Scru, you phrase it to sound like they're the aggressors causing trouble in line with korea flaunting long range missiles.

It's outright freakish to think anyone would say Isreal isn't exacerbating the situation.

Not that they have any other choice but to bomb the fuck outta Lebanon for what Syria is doing to them... :/

GO JEWS!

I can't help but smirk with childish glee at the fact that Isreal's entirely proportionate response to the larger global WOT is only making Bush's fighting of Kerry's War in Iraq look good. Even with our Abu Ghraibs, Gitmos and Haddithas US troops are decidedly fighting the kindler, gentler form of war on a tactic here.

I think it's good for the world to see that so graphically displayed. The 99% of the population of the planet that wouldn't pick up a book on the subject might even notice. More informed observers might even take note of Isreal's political unification on the subject, maybe might even compare that to the political wars going on in the homelands of Europe and America.

Organizations exist that were chartered in order to expedite the extermination of most of us here for some reason, right there with the Zionist state. All of us are gonna wind up swept into some ocean if we don't start taking this tactic, possibly the last as yet undefeated hope in a long list of tactics designed to maintain slavery among men, somewhat more seriously.

I repeat:

GO JEWS!

They're certainly causing a lot of damage, but "exacerbating"? Lebanon can't control their own borders, and their government is too weak to even do anything about it. They allow entities in Damascus and Tehran to dictate their policy. What about Security Council Resolution 1559?

What, will Hezbollah kidnap more people because of israel? maybe Syria or Iran will be forced to finance more terrorist organizations because of what Israel's doing. :rolleyes

I believe every death exacerbates the situation. Regardless of whose hands are getting stained. :(

Well, y'know what? I'm not sure many of us will die for something as important as plugging the MidEast into the modern world and ending terrorism as a method of influencing world events.

If you are not comfortable discussing the deaths of people, then you might not want to be speaking up about war, because that's pretty much all there is to see here, Betty.

Lemme guess. You think Israel's responding to some kidnappings? Yeah I guess self defense can be considered "exacerbating" .... if you're rooting for Hezzballah.

"What they need to do is get Syria to get Hizbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over." - George W. Bush

So Ziggy, if Israel completely overlooked Lebanon (which is where the soldiers were transported to, which is why Israel targeted infrastructure), and just started bombing Damascus, you'd be in favor of it.....?

Why would I be OK with that?

Those were Bush's words, not mine. And he also said, "I felt like telling Kofi to call, to get on the phone to Assad and make something happen." "We're not blaming Israel. We're not blaming the Lebanese Government."

You talk about targetting infrastructure, yet death tolls are already up to around 230. I'm having trouble finding numbers for deaths caused by the Rockets fired into Israel, but those numbers should be included as well.

It is an escalation of violence from both sides. You're a god-damned idiot if you deny that simple point.

Meanwhile, the string pullers sit pretty in their mansions and palaces.

Just another day on planet Earth.


edit: Israeli death toll was up to 24 (of which half were civilian) as of Monday night (source -- the picture of those little girls writing messages on those rockets is sad).

Not to seem crude or or anything but 230 deaths, considering the strategical damage to the infrastructure they keep talking about, really isn't that big of a deal.

If the Republican Party had an armed wing, let's call it the NRA, and they crossed the Canadian border and kidnapped two mounties, what would a justified response be from the Canadaians?

What if Canada had evidence that the NRA was not only being supported in their efforts by Mexico, but they also intended to smuggle those poor mounties into Mexico or Guatemala?

What if Canada learned that the whole thing was orcehstrated by Guatemala and Mexico, and instead of cooperating, the NRA continued to attack Canada?

What if the U.S. government claimed to have no control over the NRA, despite UN pressure to disram them?

Would Canada be justified in trying to prevent the NRA from getting those mounties into Mexico, or would Canada simply ignore the role the U.S. played in the whole mess?

What should Israel do, Ziggy?

Canada would send a strike team of commando beavers across the border to de-forest the entire U.S. overnight.

I don't know, Kevin. But that doesn't mean I have to like what's going on.

The mounties could totally take the Upper peninsula.

Ziggy, nobody has to like what's going on, but it is going on.

And it isn't going to stop if Israel simply stops fighting. It'll only stop when groups like Hezbollah no longer exist, and countries like Syria and Iran stop waging proxy wars against Israel.

Of course you hate what's going on you moron. Go check out the blogs "in support of the Zionist entity". You think Israel and her supporters are happy? You think Israel likes getting hit with 1000 rockets in a week? You think Israel likes fighting a war against two terrorist groups that bae themselves inside civilian populations specifically to maximize the death tolls. You thin Israel likes that it's hands are tied from retaliating against the two States sponsoring these biproxy attacks? You think that Israelis like that no nothings like you put the blame squarely on Israel? Or that the daily attacks on Israeli civilians are so sordid and numerous, they're rarely reported. did you hear about the fire bombings yesterday? Knife attacks? The Rafah border opening up for arms smuggling again? Who can keep track? Israel is being attacked at two borders, and it is no coincidence, even if the media keeps treating these are seperate instances, and seperate organizations.

The escalation was the assasination of a Lebanese head of state. The escalation was putting Hizzballah and Hamas in government.

If Miami or San Antonio wer getting hit with rockets on a daily basis, what would we do?

Finally, what exactly do you expect Israel to do?! They don't have the luxury of being a pacifist nation. If you don't like the death toll, then why would 1 million Israeli Arabs, and 5 million Jews "pushed into the sea" sound like a better option?

"If the Republican Party had an armed wing, let's call it the NRA, and they crossed the Canadian border and kidnapped two mounties, what would a justified response be from the Canadaians? "

The destruction of the infrastructurue of the entire United States.

"What if Canada had evidence that the NRA was not only being supported in their efforts by Mexico, but they also intended to smuggle those poor mounties into Mexico or Guatemala?"

Follow the destruction of US infrastructure with bombing campiagns in Mexico ANF gautemala, to be on the safe side.

"What if Canada learned that the whole thing was orcehstrated by Guatemala and Mexico, and instead of cooperating, the NRA continued to attack Canada?"

Intensify bombimng of Mexico and Guatemala

"What if the U.S. government claimed to have no control over the NRA, despite UN pressure to disram them?"

Bomb DC directly

"Would Canada be justified in trying to prevent the NRA from getting those mounties into Mexico, or would Canada simply ignore the role the U.S. played in the whole mess?"

Not only justified, you could hope that the situation would result in a much wider war that might finally wipe out te NRA. Secretly, the US government is hoping for just such a thing and welcomes the destruction of their infrastructure. If Canada plays its cards right, The soviet Union will come in on their side and instutue regume change in Mexico and Guatemala, which will go off without a hitch, as their recent sovietization of Brazil did. Sure, tons and tons and tons of people will die, but in the long run we know for certain that a sovietized Central and South America will usher in a golden age that will make all the slaughter worth it. And even if it doesn't, do the Canadians really have any choice?

"What should Israel do, Ziggy?"

Israel?! I thought we were talking about Canada! Oh, wait, my name isn't Ziggy.

My "Free Lebanon!" T-shirt is on back order....

So very sorry. I'll order my Israel cheerleading outfit today, and later on you can show me some of the routines!

well, since you're being a nancy no-show, let me try one-

Go Jews, defeat Lebanon!
Zionist can do no wrong!


ugh, the meter on that just sucks! help please!

Hence: "The War on Terror."

I had the chance to visit with an old friend of my grandparents, today. She's Morrocan, and grew up in France, before moving to Israel in the 40's to voulenteer with the creation of the Israeli State - as in, there was nothing there previously in the way of a fully functioning country. She didn't go to immigrate, she went to work the land, and build communities. She described a fair they had to invite the Arabs, and nobody showed up. The news reports she watches make absolutely no sense to here, because she remembers the war of Independence was fought against Britian, and Trans-Jordan - she had never heard of Palestinians. Neither had my mother, who went to Israel in 1967 with the Israel peace corp. to help work with the refugees near Gaza. Both of them talk about the bedouins, who were nice and friendly with Jews, and the Arabs who stayed, all of which were happy to see their quality of life improve with Israel's creation.


Look, I appreciate that Miss Modular could admit that she doesn't understand exactly what's going on. It is confusing....
I mean, it's hard not to root for State sponsored Islamic seperatists that use children as human shields. Those human rights groups, peaceniks, moderate Muslims, and mainstream Islamic groups can't all be wrong. Their nationalism, occupations, and settlements are excempt! All that Holocaust turnspeak/revitionism, and 58 years of talking about pushing Jews into the ocean are just the natural result of being life long refugees with mortgages, dual citizenship, and humanitarian aid.

:lol

You're right, Abcgdgxfdc. It IS confusing. I'm confused by why, when the situation is so obviously black and white, so clearly a case of Angels Vs. Monsters in the middle east and so obviously a case of good simple moral forthright Americans vs. self hating, cretinous peacenik zombies here in the USA this problem wasn't solved long ago by simple, cleansing violence.

Haven't we bent over backwards long enough? I think it's clear that if we just kill enough arabs all the other arabs will, if not love us, at least accept us.

I mean, those guys are stupid enough to believe tat if they kill enough of us, we'll be cowed by terror and give up? How stupid is that? Like bombing us and threatening us would ever make us change our minds! What, do they think we're weak?

All we need to do is destroy their infrastrcuture. A little shock and awe will turn them right around.

Max, they're destroying the infrastructure (at least initially) in order to prevent the transfer of the IDF soldiers.

The Lebanese government can't prevent this, and elements from outside of their country are encouraging it.

WHAT should Israel do? Prisoner swap? i know that'll ultimately be the deal, which I find unfortunate. If you're going to go in a do so much damage in Lebanon, shouldn't you help the Lebanese uphold their obligation to disarm ONE of their political parties?

Hezbollah has jeopardized Lebanese security, and they don't give a shit about the people in that country.

Max, Ziggy ... do you guys think your responses are based in some reality that applies to the mid-east conflict?

There's only one side saying they want to destroy a country and cleanse an ethnicity, and it's not Israel saying it. So wake up.

Nobody is thrilled with the Lebanon incursion. There's no cheerleading. If Israel does this right, we'll have one less terrrorist organization, one less occupation, Syria will be taken down a notch, Israeli's won't have missiles going through their bedroom windows...and ultimately a Free Lebanon.

Got a problem with that?

Explain how bombing the whole of Lebanon back to the Stone Age destroys Hezbollah and frees Lebanon. Explain how their actions even remotely discourage rampant anti-Semitism in the region. Explain how that is based in any reality that applies to any modern conflict.

I've got a problem with blood for blood, because it never ends.

"There's only one side saying they want to destroy a country and cleanse an ethnicity, and it's not Israel saying it. So wake up. "

Actions speak MUCH louder than words. Israel may not be saying "we want to destroy Lebanon," but they are actively decimating them right now. Is it possible for Israel to destroy Hezbollah? Is it possible to do it without destroying Lebanon? Will these events advance or impede the causes of other antisemetic groups in the region?

I think those are all valid concerns.

Not to be an anal retentive nit-picker, but Arabs are semetic.

I know these questions were directed at abc, but I would like to address this one.

I think your logic here seems to give very little credit to moderate Arabs and/or muslims.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying here that Israel responding to a nation that has openly been attacking them will only spread anti-semitism. How does that make sense? Is it because a Jew is dropping the bomb? Maybe a Jew made the decision to bomb?

This line of thought really bugs me. Israel does things that may offend people, so hey, no wonder they want to wipe out every Jew in the Middle East. I don't see the connection, and since Jordan, Egypt, and even Saudi Arabia have all defended Israel's right to take out Hezbollah, I struggle to see how this is a Jewish thing.

Let's not make excuses for ignorance.

It's not the response, but the degree of response. If you have a doctor who cures patients, he's a good doctor. If he kills the patient and then declares the disease eliminated, he's a quack.

I'm not saying Israel has gone too far - it's really too soon for that sort of statement to be made objectively. But I am concerned there is a fine line to tread between self-defense and a full-out offensive.

If it stops there, at taking out Hezbollah with minimal losses to the whole of Lebanon, then great!

This was misplaced. Had I timed it better, it might have made more sense. It applies again here, though, so let me try again...

Israel is not bombing all of Lebanon "into the stone age." Israel is targeting terrorist resources and structures, sometimes even regardless of whether they are located in, among or around civilians. The location of these targets was selected by the terrorists, not Israel. The location of the civilians are selected by the civilians, not Israel. You can bet your sweet ass if Hezbollah sets up shop next door to me and starts shooting shoulder fired rockets into Atlanta, I'm moving.

The War on Terror, despite the cynical argument that we cannot wage war on a tactic, is actually all about eliminating the last available tactic of international ne'er-do-wells and miscreants. Israel is helping such misguided folk to understand this tactic no longer serves their goals. Israel is making them look dead and silly. Dead and/or silly looking people cannot oppress the people of globalization's gap as easily as those that are alive and powerful looking. It's hard to lie your way out of getting turned into glass impurities by a multi-million-dollar smart bomb dropped from a billion-dollar jet while you were trying to get your two-dollar Chinese/Iranian rocket to work.

We and the Israelis, along with seven Brits and a couple of Aussies, are winning hearts and minds here. Iran and Syria are looking pretty darn impotent at the moment, and their wacked out little arms dealer, Kim Jong Il, isn't turning out to be as helpful as he promised.

This is the War on Terror. Ain't it great?

This is a photo from a "pro-Lebanon" rally today in NYC. Check out what the sign all the way to the right says:

EDIT:

Nevermind, it won't show. :(

You can view it here.

Following the link, however, lets you see the rest of the pictures in that series, which then gives you a headache.

That's nothing, check out San Francisco...





Oh, and somebody wanted some cheers?

Pro-Palestinian protesters:
"Black, red, brown, white!
Black, red, brown, white!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Viva viva Palestina!
Black, red, green, white!
Black, red, brown, white!
Black, red, green, white!
Black, red, brown, white!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
We support Hezbollah's fight!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
Black, red, green, blue!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!
We support Hamas too!"

Pro-Palestinian protesters:
"Long live the intifada!
Long live the intifada!
Long live the intifada!
Long live the intifada!
Intifada intifada!
Intifada intifada!
Intifada intifada!"

Do you know what organization made those shirts?

They make me angry.

ANSWER, with some local Islamic Supremacist group.

http://zombietime.com/israeli_consul..._july_13_2006/

I like the guy rubbing his fingers together doing the "money grubbing" thing towards the pro-Israeli crowd. Classy.

Ziggy, I think it's your response which is disproportionate. Where's the worry and care about the Hizzbalah provocations? Syria's occupation? How about the Lebanese prisoners in Syria? If Syria wants to take support from Iran to fight a proxy war in Lebanon against Israel using a foreign army of occupation then that's the deal the Lebanese get dealt. If any of the arab states thought this was a BAD idea then they would have moved against it. Don't try to soft sell me the consequences of harboring murderous maniacs with the blood of thousands of civilians IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, to me. The truth is they don't care about Lebanon, nearly as much as they care about killing all Jews. Hell, all these groups and nations HATE EACH OTHER, but Pan-Arabism, and Pan-Islamism found that war against Jews can unite them all. Yeah, it's fucked that their human shields are paying the price, but it's even more fucked that nobody makes half as much of a fuss over the fact that Hamas and Hezzballah purposely use human shields to begin with. Less then 400 deaths in a week for a military strike of this size shows unprecedented accuracy. Israel has phoned ahead or sent warnings prior bomb airports and other populated zones. Maybe you need to look into what Lebanon really looked like in the Stone Ages, or even 1984 if you think that's where this is headed. Maybe the Lebanese should revisit that decision tree to ignore Hezbollah, now. Like I've said before, No one seemed to notice or care when Hezbollah was openly a foreign army of occupation in Lebanon engineering a billion dollar financial theft to transfer assets back to Syria. If that's something you enjoy, well, enjoy it then.

Israel's actions do not promote anti-semitism. It's not their job to discourage anti-semitism. Jewish self determination is not a counter response to antisemitism either. I mean sure, the best way to fight anti-semitism is to just stop being Jewish, but Jews aren't going to lay down or take that self defeating advice. Again, are you suggesting that Arabs hate Jews and spread institutionalized antisemitism asa justified response to Jewish provocations. These rogue military strikes against Israel are fueld by hatred against Jews...and while you might be uncomfortable with that truth, it's not something Hezzballah or the Palestinian leadership have been ambigious about. Now think about what you're asking me....because it's about as absurd as asking a Black American what they did to discourage the KKK.


Learn your history. When Israel left their buffer zone occupation of Southern Lebanon it strengthened Hizzaballah, and the other antisemitic groups in the region. Check the timing of the second Intifadah too. Some even say that 9/11 happened in part due to the momentum these organizations felt once Israel left. What we know for certain is what hasn't worked...unilateral consentions, don't work. Negotiations with these groups, don't work. Prisoners trades, do not work. That stuff only reads as a victory to these people, and they will just keep on doing it, because well - it worked the first time. Any other suggestions? What has worked? Flexing their muscle. I'm sorry, it may not appeal to you, but it's a historical truth.

That would be my favorite too!

I know I know, this story is a little bit too cute for its own good, but I think it's worth noting. I think the girl in the story is right about the significance of two "high tech" nations going to war.


Jerusalem Post

Israelis and Lebanese are still talking - on the Net


Sheera Claire Frenkel, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 21, 2006

As soon as the first rockets began hitting the North, Shira, a 17-year-old from Haifa, went straight to the message boards of www.beirut.com where she asked a question no politician has yet breached: After all this, would you date a Jew?

"I asked a lot of questions, and that was one of them," she said, adding that she felt the question gave her a broader sense of how Lebanese teens were feeling about Israelis as a whole. The responses she received were mixed, but the teen said that in all fairness, it was unlikely that she herself would date a Lebanese man.

Diplomatic talks between Israel and Lebanon may appear distant, but virtual talks between Lebanese and Israeli nationals are gathering steam daily on the Internet. Hundreds are signing on daily to blog, chat and post about the ongoing violence, with many finding new ways to relate to one another.

"It's important to note that this community existed for some time before the war broke out," said Lisa Goldman, who has used her blog, ontheface.blogware.com, to publicize Israeli-Lebanese blogging since the current crisis broke out. "We have tons of things in common. We come from two of the most liberal, educated countries in the Middle East. Many of us received a western education. We have talked, wrote, and dreamed about open borders between our countries."

Goldman described one experience in which she was sitting at her Tel Aviv home sending Instant Messages to a Beirut blogger as he described the sounds of rockets falling outside. "I think it is really important to point out that it is a history-making event - it is revolutionary," said Goldman. "The fact that the citizens of two warring countries are maintaining a dialogue while a war is going on cannot be ignored... [i] think it will be the most blogged war in history."

For many, the attraction of going on-line has to do with connecting with one another without the third party filter that a media outlet generally provides. "I wanted to know what they were thinking, especially people my age," Shira. "I don't know any politicians or important military guys. The only people for me to appeal to are my peers."

Shira said she had found interesting and informative arguments about the violence on the message boards. Many of the posts were "hateful," she said, comparing the IDF to Nazi forces and calling for a global Arab attack on Israel. "I ignored the hateful posts, and focused on the ones that seemed to go past the ignorance," said Shira. "I found people I could relate to... I wanted them to understand me so that I wouldn't be 'the enemy.'"

Middle Eastern bloggers sprang into action within hours of the initial violence, exchanging photos via Web sites such as www.flickr.com, and long message strings on sites such as lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com. There have also been chat rooms set up by Jewish and Lebanese bloggers to allow for real-time communication between the two communities.

Take for instance, some of the posts on the www.beirut.com message board under the Politics subtopic.

"The politicians today (as they always did in Lebanon!) are playing on people's fear. Fear of the people from another religion, from another community," wrote a poster named Nouce.

In response to a post from "DJ Glutton" saying, "Israel is our enemy, and never forget it," a poster calling himself "Bloody Roses" wrote: "Thirty years of Syrian occupation had damaging results. There are many problems between Lebanese that need to be solved once we are free...

Unfortunately, there are still many [in] Lebanon who are not working for Lebanese interests, but for Iranian and Syrians ones... Hizbullah is a real threat for Lebanon, they are a group of fanatics who are heavily armed."

One of the most popular posts was from a young man nicknamed "A.D.I.D.A.S" (All day I dream of sex). "We are all Lebanese. I suggest that, if the US and the other forces leave Leb[anon] alone politically, economically and whatever alone, we can live peacefully without any troubles."

"I like reading the posts because they sounded like the way people here talked about things," said Shira. She said that although she had spent the most time on the Politics message board, she had also found that she had a lot in common with Lebanese teens when she started reading the Arts, Culture and Entertainment boards. Like her own friends, most Lebanese teens did not appear willing to let their social lives come to a halt just because a war happened to be going on.

Although the Politics board of Beirut.com appears to have gathered steam in the wake of recent violence, by far the most popular boards remain the Dating and Jokes sections.

While several dozen jokes about Haifa and other northern Israeli communities have already been posted, it was a different Haifa - pop singer and model Hayfa Wehbeh - who stole the show with 1,403 jokes in her (or about her) honor.

But that's not the way the Lebanese populace tells it. They say that Hezbollah gets to keep their arms because Israel could wipe out the Lebanese army very quickly, but they cannot wipe out guerilla fighters. I guess we're going to see rather shortly if that is true or not. Current reports are conflicting as to how much damage has actually been done to Hezbollah, and Israel certainly isn't done attacking.

This thing about the warnings though... I only heard about that yesterday. To me, that is very heartening, except for the chronology of it is a little unclear. They gave civillians warnings to get out of town BEFORE they blew up all the bridges and gas stations?

I don't really think that's the case, else why did we have to send the marines in to get our citizens out? But maybe it is... the mainstream news media is not the most reliable way to find out exactly what happened and exactly when. By the time the facts get straight, the story is "old news". :(


I'm only suggesting that if somebody blew up my parents' house, while they were in it, I'd want revenge and/or justice, and so would any normal human being.


That's an opinion, and you calling it a fact does not make it so. If "flexing their muscle" as you put it is what works, then why is Israel still the focus of so much violence? Israel has been "flexing it's muscle" almost non-stop since the days where it referred to it's muscle as the Haganah. Sure it solves problems in the short-term, but in the long term does it not add more fuel to the fire? What can put out this fire? Precision military strikes and walls with machine guns? You seem to be saying the only thing that can do this is for Jews to stop being Jewish. The idea that negotiations and peace agreements cannot work is a ridiculously self-defeating attitude that just happens to be shared by enough people (Jewish and Arab, alike) to make it a self-fulfilling statement.

It is my opinion that violence is inherently self-perpetuating. Again, I'll state as clearly as I can, it's still years too soon to know the full ramifications of these events, but even if a cease-fire is negotiated, it is a legitimate concern that Israeli attack on Lebanon will generate more anti-Israeli sentiment in the region than it will serve to defeat. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you think that is no big deal.


Anyway, have a nice weekend! I'm going camping and won't be able to argue with ya for a few days. :)

You aren't arguing with him. You are denying the truth. Plain and simple. It is beyond my understanding that he responds to you. You'd almost think there was a micron of doubt in him somehwere.

He's "camping." He can't "hear" you.

You're going to hear varied opinions with the Lebanese, as there's no united populace. Check any Lebanese blogs, and it's skitzo city.

Eh? Israel is not at war with the Lebanese army. Now should that Army, which is half Shia, decide to fight alongside Hezzballah as they've threatened, then that's their choice. Israel is a temporary problem, so if their desire is really to fight for soveriegnty, then they picked the wrong side. If Lebanon can stand up against Israel, which they are threatening to do, then they sure as hell Hezzbalah.



That's right. Israel's been doing that since the Irgun days bombing the King David Hotel. They dropped leaflets the first two days which said something like, if you're near Hezballah...run. Israel hit the airport several times, and the strikes on the first day were merely to the runway, not the terminals.

It's easy to verify. Look into if you doubt it.
The US was the last to evacuate it's citizens. I'll also mention that the majority of those citizens were actually dual citizens, rather then Americans trapped abroad.




Okay then use that reasoning to come to terms with why Israel is responding the way they are. Hizballah was not created as a reaction to any Israeli actions.


Then tell me when these "peace measures" have worked. If you look at the timeline the violence against Israel has always increased AFTER something like pulling out of Southern Lebanon, or Gaza. That is a fact, not an opinion. Israel has had it's hands tied for decades, ever since their last incursion into Lebanon, which was a mess for all involved.

That type of rhetoric is best saved for the ANSWER rallies. It's not accurate. If you really believe Israel intetions are devious or at least questionable, and you really believe they haven't stopped flexing their muscle since the 30's....then well.... why has the Arab population increased? Why have the Palestinians obtained land for the first time in history? Why are there more terror groups, and more attacks on Israelis then EVER before? What's stopping Israel from that genocide and apparthaid they keep getting accused of?




Ask Egypt and Jordan.

Again, you're responding to me as if the issue is about land, or borders. It's not. It's about Jewish existance in the area. You can not negotiate with these fuckwads in hoods hanging from wires. A peace agreement with the Muslim Brotherhood and PLO spawned groups has NEVER meant anything. Ever. That's a sad truth...and if you're not aware of what Israel has done in the way of peace negotiations, then again, look into it.

People who hate Jews, or Christians or Sunni or Shia do so for irrational reasons. You're wondering why there isn't a rational solution? Well, that's why. If they wipe out the Jews, next it's going to be the Christians....who are dwindling int he region as it is...and once that's done, the big Sunni - Shia war would be next. It's easier for them to focus on the Jews though. The Holy War talk has been going on since before Israel's creation.

If you think I'm supporting either lebannon or israel your kidding yourself. there both on the same level in my book of I don't care. Israel has the right to defend its borders, but bombing and 1/8th of the population out of their homes, doesn't seem to be helping any in my short sighted logic. Niether are the rocket attacks by hezbollah that kill 2 arab kids, or the ambush of an Israeli armored unit, and the concurent rescue unit. or the bombing of an airport and/or anything that is moving. Pretty much the point I'm making is that I'm with Achimp on this one.

The reason I said India is pinning everything on pakistan, is because it haulted the uneasy peace talks that were going on, which is pretty much either one of those shitty governments had going for them.

India ought to be another thread alltogether. Everytime the disputed Cashmere region talks start coming somewhere some retard woman douses a train in gas and murders 200 people.

I think these terrorist actions make moderate islam look like inbred violent morons, which they are not. All they do is hurt their cause and further an untrue stereotype. Of course I could say the same about some Pentacostals and traditional christianity.

http://i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=22834

>:

You'd never know it from your comments. I hate that an Israeli bomb kills children, but I hate it even more that the international community (with an emphasis on the Muslim community) turns the other cheek to these terrorists using Hospitals and their Nurseries as their comand centers. They want you to be outraged when a child dies, and you should be - but the blame goes on the people who didn't follow the rules of war (they want a war right?) and avoid putting military outlets within civilian populations. I know, you said you don't care to make these distinctions, but your post didn't reflect your free to be you and me feelings towards the whole conflict.

Israel proper is under attack. Central Israel have been living in bomb shelters for a week. It's not ambigious as to why.

This article is from 1999...

I'm watching the Syrian ambassador to the U.S. on the Mclaughlin Hour right now.

Apparently all violence in the Middle East would stop if Israel left all "occupied lands".

Syria. Occupied land.

Huh. Who knew? So simple.

Well When they first started saying this Israel thought they were reffering to the land from the 6 day war, Israel has since gave up all that and then some. Now it's clear they want ALL the land and all jews to leave the area.

Yep that would end the war, terrorism, and suicide bombings all right. Of course you could say the same thing about america warring with the indians and telling them to go back across the alaskan landbridge cause that's basicly what they are saying.

The issue with 1967 borders was a smoke screen. There was never any peace between 1949-1967. Arafat created his PLF (PLO) prior to 1967. PA websites, and Palestinian textbooks have included all of Israel proper in their maps of Palestine for a reason. There are lots of quotes from Arafat admitting that the green line was a tactical stepping stone to their real goals which were obscured from the PLO's original charter in time for Oslo. The insistance on the Right of Return also makes their goals pretty obvious. When Israel celebrates Independence Day, Palestinians take a moment of silence for what they call Al Nakba, "The Catastrophe" in what has been compared to open mocking of the Holocaust. The day commemorates the creation of Israel in 1948. Only peacenikes look past all these facts. It's harder to keep that charade going noow that Israel has made an effort to return to it's 1967 borders, and the attacks are centered on within Israel's original 1948 soveriegn borders which were never under dispute. They want the destruction of Israel, and while it was always implied, now they're fully admitting it.

Page 51-52, written in 2000

http://newamericancentury.org/Rebuil...asDefenses.pdf

:rolleyes

And you wonder how us 9/11 "conspiracy kooks" predicted this would happen.

Lebanon's army, being cripplied by years of civil war with extremists doesn't have the muscle to fight back. Isn't obvious they aren't retaliating against Israel for a reason? they want Hezballah out too.

As for France they've never been much help. Hell I've seen pics of Jaque Chirac showing Saddam around a nuclear facility. France has to much to gain from a hezballah style government. That type of goup is their biggest trade partners.

Iran is a huge problem too. It's kinda funny that the missiles Israel blew up en route to Lebanon were manufactured in china, and after the US halted the sale of missiles from china to iran in the 90s, iran was gonna give them to hezballah :P Iran is all "kill them all" after all hezballah is a party in Iran too in fact syria and iran are it's main centers politicly.

We need another Jimmy Carter to convince these people Israel has a right to live.

(07-21) 04:00 PDT Jerusalem -- Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.

In the six years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NG2QK396D1.DTL

The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...6,00050004.htm

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m...uring_soldiers

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

In a deliberated way, Tsahal sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aïta Al Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, making two prisoners.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

OMG! You mean one of the largest militaries in the world had a contingency plan if attacked!? What happened prior to a year ago to make them come up with this plan? Oh right, 3 soldiers were kidnapped.

Weird how a Bahraini paper can't distinguish between Hezaballah and Lebanese police. There's a difference, Geggy. They're not prisoners, either, they're hostages. Has the Red Cross been allowed to visit them? Is Hezzballah a recognized army? Do they follow the rules of war?

Anyway the provocation was the constant missile fire into Israel. The kidnappings are huge because they occured right after the Hamas abductions. You won't respond though. Retard.

That was the common thinking before Lebanon threatened to defend their soveriegnty against an Israeli ground incursion. If they really wanted Hezaballah out they would be partnering with Israel. I believe most Lebanese want a free country though. Meaning free of Syria too.

Yikes maybe that was a joke? Although...Israel and Iran had all sorts of secret ties during the Carter years. What's really interesting is nobody has cut Israel's tap line yet. So whatever diplomacy is involved to get Israel their oil is still intact.

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

Either Isreali public opinion opposes risking military casualties, or, more likely, the Israeli military has fallen victim to the same "shock-and-awe" academic Air Force careerism that has plagued the US campaign in Iraq...

I heard a rumor a few years ago that Israel was working with the Kurds, who I guess don't share the rest of the region's animosity toward Jews, to run a pipeline from there. I have no idea whether there's been enough time to finish such a project, but I've never seen anything about it in the media version of the war.

Wasn't Hariri assassinated one year ago which led to syria military being pressured into withdrawing from lebanon? If so, good war tactics by the israelis, me thinks. Showed that Israel was thinking ahead of time. By the way I'm not too sure if hezbollah is what the west paint them to be. How do you know they were created in order to protect their homeland from the israeli soldiers? Why do you think it's wrong of them to capture the israeli soldiers who happened to be inside the border of lebanon at the time? They turned the captured soldiers into the lebanon police and demand the lebanon civilians, men, women, children, alike whom are being held on as hostages by israel to be released in exchanged for the soldiers, how is that a justification for israel dropping U$ manfactured bombs onto beirut? It seems clear to me that they're not just interested in rescuing their own men, but have something bigger planned. Oh right, I just remembered now that it's a waste of time arguing with someone who think it's antisemetic to speak out israel's foriegn policy, duh.

You really have no clue as to how well armed and trained Hezbollah is, do you?

I love this argument, btw. It's the classic "let's not flat out say they shouldn't do anything, but throw them a bone" argument like calling the war on terror a "police matter."

Sending in commandos won't stop Hezbollah from transporting the soldiers into Syria and/or Iran.

And gee, what history lesson might teach us that simply sending "commandos" into Lebanon to rescue prisoners doesn't necessarily work?

I've heard that the US brokered a deal between the House of Saud and Israel. We figured that our two biggest allies in the region shouldn't be ready to annihilate each other with the billions of dollars in gear we sent them.

The SA government publicly condemns the terrorist attacks and doesn't fund them (officially anyway) and the IDF doesn't turn Riyad into a smoking crater. And all the commerce that goes along with allied nations.

Seriously, you don't even deserve a fucking response here, so my suggestion is going to be that you do some research into the origin (start with the translation of their name), and stop being stupid.

Once you get those things down, get back to us.