Universal Health Care
 

I really can't understand the conservatives on this one. At all.

Any right wingers on this board care to share their views?

What's not to understand, people with money want to make more money.

I don't want to have to wait for a specialist when I could just pay for treatment right away. It's selfish, but I don't give a fuck because my parents have money.

I've seen what government health care is like. They nearly operated on the wrong foot on me. Fucking idiot doctors.

They're convinced that a government-run health care program will fail because it will be run by the government, which is bad whenever the government isn't being run by a republican. Also, they loathe spending money on anything other than defense.

Everything else, including talk of "death panels" and such, is just crap they're throwing out to try and scare the public into backing them.

I guess my main question is, are conservatives actually this stupid, and fail to understand how having a socialized health care system is cheaper in the long run, or has it really boiled down to partisanship, and they don't vote for it, simply because they hate all the people that will vote for it.

I mean, in Canada, the fraction of a penny I pay in taxes for helping other Canadians out is fine by me, because, even if I wasn't trying to be altruistic about it, it would still be in my best interest to help out others, all the time, because the guy who can afford his health care will probably not end up a criminal and possibly steal my shit. That's kind of a big stretch but, really, its not that illogical, is it?

That seems to be the main argument I hear from the republicans, that they cannot see how it's their responsibility to pay for the health of someone else. Is anyone else confused by how a minimal investment in someone elses' welfare will pay off, even if its for selfish reasons?

I can afford my own health care. I couldnt care less about universal health care as long I dont have to pay for it.

So you kinda just decided to not read my post then.

As a conservative I don't want the governmunt to interfere with my healthcare. I'm happy with my medi-cal and I don't need the government messing it up or changing it.

GET A JOB YOU HIPPIES!

If the proposed system is anything like England's you are still more than welcome to have private healthcare if you want to pay for it. If you can't afford it, you can use the NHS.

What's wrong with that? All the people that don't want no governments messin' in their affairs can continue to use private healthcare. Everyone else can get it for free.

But that's lost revenue.

In a big way, why not feed everyone for free? Because it won't make me money.

I DONT WANT HE GOVERNMENT INTERFFERRRN WITH MY MEDIIICCAAAAAAAAL

:(

I think for a lot of people public healthcare has become like a symbol of everything unamerican.

All I want to know is how much is going to be taken out of my paycheck every week so some junkie can get his pain pills?

Is this seriously how the conservatives actually think? Or are you just trolling?

You mean like Rush Limbaugh? :rolleyes

What site are we on?

No. I really want to know how much they are going to take out of my check every week. Seams like a legitimate question.

Among the core beliefs of the Republican party are the idea that taxes are bad, no matter what they're used for, and that the government should rarely be involved in anything, which is mostly just an extrapolation of the first bit.

Beyond that, there's the idea that if there is a government program that is helping people with something, said program is doomed to be abused by people, and thus should never be attempted. You take a complete lack of faith in other people, add in the belief that everyone should just fend for themselves, and you've got a fair idea of what's going through the heads of a lot of modern conservatives.

I just have no faith in the government running anything. How many congressmen does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

None. But it does take a majority vote to hire one guy to oversee the project that is managed by another guy. Who hires one more to buy the bulb and another to pick it up and deliver it to the job site. He then has to hire yet another guy to pick it up again and actually deliver it to the correct job site who passes it off to a final guy to actually screw it in.

Just two, but good luck getting them in there.

:lol2

I think its the red tape and bureaucracy that makes healthcare complicated and expensive. Something government run healthcare has less thereoff.

Does your paycheck specify how much municipal tax goes towards roads that are walked on by bums and junkies who don't pay taxes?

Or how much of your taxes go towards free primary and secondary education for people who have children when you probably don't?

Does it specify how much was spent on police that were sent to protect an individual getting beat up who may have been a bum or junkie?

I don't understand how you can pick one government service, that should be available, (and is available, in every developed country except for yours), and ask for specifics, when you probably don't care about the ones that already are.

I mean, seriously, a bum, walking on the same roads that a taxpaying citizen uses. The nerve.


Furthermore, do any of you have any health care stories to share? Being fucked over by the system? Etc?

I don't think a government-run plan would run 100%, but worst case scenario, people would have mediocre health care instead of no health care.

Also, anyone who thinks government health care would drive private insurers out of business ought to check and make sure that UPS and FedEx went out of business when the postal system came into being.

The biggest problem is that the republicans throw in so much hate-propaganda that it's hard to maintain a pertinent debate.

A prime example being the Stephen Hawking affair:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._08/019457.php

Basically an American newspaper editorial claimed that if Hawking had lived in the UK, he wouldn't be alive today (because the NHS doesn't bother to keep ill elderly alive there).

The had failed to realize that Hawking is a British resident, he has been treated by the NHS throughout his life and he is in fact alive.

Well, to be fair, Politicians aren't known for honesty. To be honest, its the level of the misinformation that's insulting.

30 years ago, Reagan took the time to explain to everyone his plan for supply side economics, and why he thought it was the bee's knees. Technically, he was giving misinformation, because he didn't mention all the other things that would (and did) come with it, such as capital flight, and huge rollbacks of private sector regulation.

But at least he talked to the public like they had a brain, and were capable of critical thinking.

Now all they do is hop on TV and come up with a stupid phrase, like DEATH PANELS and that's good enough. They know you're not even going to think about it, and the (lack of) effort they put in clearly shows it.

The difference between a roads education and the police is that all those services I actually use. I drive on those roads too. When I was a kid I attended school. Now that I have kids of my own they go to school. And the police are there for everyone (for better or worse, thats a different matter all together). I never said universal health care was a bad thing. All I want to know is how much of my money the government is going to be taking out of my pocket. Or in other words... What is the bottom line? Is that really such a jerk thing to ask?

Actually I do care about the ones we already have but again thats a different matter all together. Im only talking about universal health care because that is the topic at hand. In a thread that you started if Im correct. So if anyone singled it out its you.

It's going to go the way any new program goes: start off and be fixed and tweaked as time goes by. Just like the Constitution. I might be wrong, but I don't think any program like this would be made, tossed out, and left as is forever.

When you asked the question like this, you weren't exactly asking what the bottom line was, so much as you were subtly inferring that people who will be getting the health care are people you feel don't deserve it.

And there isn't really a difference, unless you are saying that you wouldn't use the public option. Your for-profit insurance provider has covered every medical condition you have, and will continue to do so?

That's good for you man, because an ever increasing majority of people in your country are not in the same boat. Or arc, I guess, is more appropriate.

If you've never gotten a letter in the mail saying that you are denied coverage because the insurance company feels that your condition was pre-existing, or that the treatment is considered to "experimental" and you will owe the hospital $50,000, then you are pretty lucky.

I never have either, but that's because I was blessed enough to have been born in Canada, and I would not think twice about the fraction of a penny that goes towards helping other Canadians get adequate health care.

To be honest, the fact that Americans are willing to hold other Americans financially responsible for something like getting sick honestly makes ME sick.

Are you sayiong he doesn't need to know this info and should just fucking shut up?

Hey Command Prompt, maybe if you got a job and stopped mooching off of other people then you wouldn't need hardworking people to pay their hard earned money just so you could get your fix. Fucking hippy.

I'd actually prefer he defend himself as intelligently as possible,

but shutting the fuck up is also a fairly reasonable alternative to asking banal, loaded questions.

A job? You mean like being an associate sociology professor at university? I'll look into it.

This is what people who have any sort of education call a question.

This is what anyone on these boards, aside from you apparently, would call a joke.

So your universal health care in Canada only costs you a "fraction of a penny"? Really? Thats all? I find that hard to believe. Im not saying it has to cost a ton every week, but it has to cost more than a "fraction of a penny".

Again I have never said I wouldnt go for it. I just want to know how much it is going to cost and if I will be forced to put into it if I have my own insurance. These are perfectly acceptable questions.

OMG! How dare we hold you responsible for yourself! Its a crime against humanity to expect you to get a job and provide for yourself! As far as those who just cant be expected to...

Hey T do you have a job? Do your medical bill get paid? Who pays for them?

I agree that lifestyle is an important factor in many conditions, however genetics and other random factors still play a large role in determining the quality of life for many people. Everyone actually.

Holding people personally responsible for random variations in the gene pool is like saying the weather personally makes conscious decisions.

Essentially, the only way you can justify this line of thinking is by giving sway to some kind of hard determinism, in which certain people are created to be "better" than others, and everyone else just has to "deal with it."

I am going on 39 and my government (THE GREAT U.S. of FUCKING A.) is providing me with free health care and a small amount of money to see me through via U.S. Social Security.

I remember when my wife got sick, it's to bad I couldn't rush her into the hospital and get her taken care of and have medi-cal take care of the bill because we were to poor to pay it. Oh wait... they did!

But I thought we were heartless bastards who didnt care for anyone who couldnt take care of themselves?! Oh wait... Its only the dick lickers who are perfectly able to provide for themselves but chose to abuse the system that we dont like.

I guess this would be statement from an uninformed blow hard. I suppose you study up a little more before passing judgment professor.

When I was a bum in San Fransisco, I couldn't go into any thing like a free health clinic to get medical attention for the smallest of injuries or coughs, OH WAIT! I DID!

I HAVE OPINIONS ON THINGS OUTSIDE MY KNOWLEDGE!

But since I do know a thing or two about it, Dimnos, I think who it would benefit the most is people who do have private health care and have a previous condition that the private health care system won't support. You guys would be able to actually get what you are paying for this time and have the best of both worlds. As much as I like making Canadians fustrated, the truth is that your kid will have a better chance to grow up healthy in an increasingly poisoned atmosphere.

No one knows what is going to happen to them illnesswise. I thought my back problems were just normal back problems. If I had access to health care back then I would have been able to have the problem slowed down to where I could be working for another 10 - 20 years and paying taxes. But back then it was all, have some aspirin and exercise cause everyone has back pain and we aren't gonna do xrays for free I don't feel anything wrong man up you pussy.

Right. It could be a great thing. I just want to know how much it will cost and what difference there is between it and the insurance I already have? Will it cover more or less than what I have? If I like my insurance better do I have to buy into it? A little more info is all I need, but Im open to the idea.

All very reasonable questions that I don't think are answered yet. But then again, I haven't read the bill.

The thing I see the most is that people with private health care get an illness and the insurance will do everything possible to not cover you for it. Under the plan (I am assuming) you are covered for everything.

No, I mean a real job.

Sociology. :lol

At university

So if the government already provides healthcare via medical and other programs which likely receive government incentives what is the difference if it is just standardized into one program? Obviously, money is already coming out of sweet dimnos pocket to pay for tadao's wife's sickness, so financially, how much of a difference is it going to make?
The only difference it should make is that more people will be receiving it, who either didn't know about the program or were ineligible since these programs often have weird rules.

Also, if everybody has healthcare, more problems like tadao's can be prevented which will keep people off of social security and other programs which take money out of your pocket. As it is people who are fat and useless get more health and financial care than other persons; it's almost an incentive to become useless.
Personally I think if the government tried to enforce more healthy living on people that are sucking off of its teet we'd be a lot better... like incentives for eatting and living healthy. Same with food stamps.
but that might be too unamerican :(

I think it will be hard on people who are working in the beginning, but after a solid amount of time, preventive medicine and good health will have a chance at a better, fit and working America. Also we might gain back a little of that compassion that we lost in the 80s.

I knew you cared! :)

I'm a very loving and caring person.

;)

Well, it certainly hasn't worked in other countries around the world, so I don't see it happening in USA.

Australia is a fucking hell hole nowadays. fat, lazy thieves who just drink tax dollars all day roam the streets unfetted. Bring back capital punishment, I say. Certainly can't hurt.

We still do in the great state of Texas. I thought you Aussies were still real men and did too?

you are all just awful, awful people. But I love you all anyway.

Awful? Because we kill child rapists?

No, we haven't hypocriticaly taken the life of someone since 1967. To top it off, the last man hanged wasn't even guilty.

Also, Tadao; imagine if they put a crazy looking donkey driving a beat up old clown ambulance, and the brave, stong elephant was using his tank to defend children from terrorsits - I bet then you wouldn't want any health care reforms.

terrorsits was my nickname back in highschool ;_;

The last guy we killed here in Texas...

We wont kill you just for killing someone. We kill you for killing and/or raping children. That shit dont fly around here. Hardly hypocrisy if you ask me.

DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS

Damn straight.

Anyone who applies for medi-state or medi-care will tell you that you will be lucky to get it even if you have a fat proof that you need it. It's a full time job trying to get it and I was lucky to have help from a lawyer and family. Most people wind up unable to keep up with the system and finally kill themselves instead just to ease the pain.

Sorry to damper things, but it's an ugly reality that we are letting the system keep people in need in an endless loop of appointments and paperwork to get something they or their family most likely paid into. Why is SS failing, well maybe because we let our government dip into it to pay for other needed things and don't hold them accountable for it.

Blah blah blah.

Quite true :(

somebody needs to start a capital punishment thread ;D i got toooooons of fun arguments for (and against) that.

Go ahead - make my day. :clint

;)

Just don't cry about it later ;)

I cannot offer you health insurance, but I can put a poultice of clean spider web silk around around any cuts you may have. :\

Wow Fairy has healing properties O.O

*Duly noted*

Man it sure is getting gay in here. >:

Gay? Wonderful! It is my goal to make things more merry! :)

You noticed too, eh?

STF, go post in Hangie's gay thread, please. >:

Make me, mortal. >:

Who needs to make anyone when you can simply be put on ignore. Bye forever retard. :lol

That's a good idea.

Why didn't I think of that? Thanks Dim IOU one. :)

I'm kinda surprised that this thread isn't getting much attention. I'm not surprised by some of the ass-clownery I've read here, though.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/215290/page/1

This is a pretty good article that basically contrasts the view of health care in the U.S. against the view in other industrialized nations.

IMO, it really comes down to whether or not you believe medical care is a right or something that should be auctioned off to the highest bidder. Of course, as a Canadian, I'm a pinko commie when it comes to my health care. :)

This thread died when that fairy gayed it up. :(

That and close minded fools thought I was right out against it because I had the audacity to throw in a joke while asking a few questions.

"Us Canadians, we're kind of understated by nature," Marcus Davies told me in his soft-spoken way. "We don't go around chanting 'We're No. 1!' But you know, there are two areas where we feel superior to the U.S.: hockey and health care."

Ummm When was the last time you had the Stanley Cup? After a comment like that, how can I even begin to listen to you're anti America based view.

My favorite part was

"They love to point out that Canada provides coverage for everybody, usually with no copay and no deductible—while the U.S. leaves tens of millions of its citizens uninsured."

"They love to remind us that, while the U.S. lets some 700,000 people go bankrupt due to medical bills each year, the number of medical bankruptcies in Canada is precisely zero."

Yes we LOVE to point that out. If we point something out about Canada its that your cheese loving Frenchies. :rolleyes

:we're#1highfive

"we won't say that we're better, it's just that we're less worse." -The Arrogant Worms

(boring video but I linked for the song)

I really do find it amazing that these experts fully believe that if someone is sick or dying, they won't be treated. Hell, all you have to do is walk into an emergency room and you can not be refused treatment. I'm not saying that it's as apparently perfect as the rest of the world, but the rest of the world seems to be as full of shit as the politicians here. OMG, you know what? People actually can get help with no money! Illegals do it all the fucking time. The main problem is that most people don't go see the Dr. until it's too late. That is completely our fault and universal health care isn't gonna get the cowboys in to get a check up.

I think a lot of people look at it as if we are trying to deny people of something when in reality we are trying to encourage self growth and responsibility. I know the American work ethic isnt what it used to be but the idea that you have to provide for yourself is a reflection of it.

What drives this country is fear. I believe that if we had socialized medicine, the fear of seeing a Dr. would go away and America would be healthier. Right now a lot of people don't know that there is free help for the poor. The middle class are the ones who really get fucked. You have a job and no insurance? Well if you don't get rich fast you are about to be poor.

All these people outside of America telling Americans that we let people die in the streets AREN'T FUCKING HELPING THE CAUSE! We know when we smell bullshit, and that is a big fucking heap of shit. So what is the automatic reaction, to keep it away until we can separate the lies from the truth. Great job outsiders. You're like the guy who steps on a branch during a raid.

:lol

Best argument against socialized medicine in the USA...

Seriously. My brother is huge into Wall Street, and the word is, buy Pharmaceuticals. Just because we get "free" health care doesn't mean we get good health care.

I love to buy pharmaceuticals. :yum

TX is awfully close to Mexico ;)

Mexicans are bringing it closer and closer every year.

In the spirit of thing, let me post a link from my home county.

http://www.venturacountystar.com/new...ahoo_headlines

Personally I only know one Canadian. She HATES Canadian health care and is totally against us going to socialized medicine

Didn't Canada beat the US in a war?

Kraft Dinner war maybe. :lol

Or the war of 1812 or something.

The war of 1812 was more or less our 2nd war for Independence fought against the British. The British occupied Canada at the time and they pushed into parts of the USA and we pushed into parts of Canada. Ultimately neither side "won" anything but much like our actual war for independence the British decided it was more trouble than we were worth. In the end they gave back the few parts of the USA they occupied in return for the few parts of Canada that we occupied. If you want to say anyone won anything in that war is was Andrew Jackson in the southern part of the USA.

Canadian and British troops also burned down Washington and stole a painting. :O

Anyways, no one's claiming that the Canadian public health care system is perfect; there's a lot of things wrong with it. The problem with wait times usually comes down to a lack of resources.

If there was more capacity, wait times would come down. If there's only one MRI machine, and it can only do 30 scans per day, bitching about it won't make the machine work any faster. Adding more machines would help, but they cost millions of dollars which is paid for by the government, which has to spread the money around to everything. Private hospitals in the US can do whatever they want with their profits, so if adding more equipment brings in more patients, then that's what they do.

If you're looking for elective surgery, you're going to wait because you're not allowed to pay more to skip to the front of the line. People who think they're the most important person in the world travel to the US to visit private clinics, and these are usually the cases that you see covered in the media. These people didn't NEED treatment or they wanted it faster.

If you visit an emergency room, yeah, you're probably going to have to wait due to something called triage. When people who are in worse shape than you show up, they're moved to the front of the line because they need the attention right away. And honestly, a lot of people visit emergency rooms for bullshit reasons because of a false sense of entitlement.

Nobody has to worry about how they're going to pay for a visit to the hospital, though. Nobody has to worry about money if their kid gets sick and needs a bunch of medicine. Nobody has to worry about whether or not they can afford to even SEE a doctor if they feel sick.