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-   -   Military Commissions Act (http://i-mockery.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23632)

ranxer Jan 22nd, 2007 02:17 AM

Military Commissions Act
 
did i miss the talk about this in oct/nov 2006?
was it in the news? i been wondering if its for real, if i missed the discussion and dilution correct me quick, i'm freaken out about this.

GOODBYE AMERICA, HELLO NAZI GERMANY? (Are you an enemy combatant?) The Military Commissions Act and the Warner Defense Act, signed into law October, 2006 give G.W. Bush and his successors full police state powers, doing away the Constitution, trashing habeas corpus and retroactively absolving torturers of their crimes. Anyone can be declared an “unlawful enemy combatant” and dispatched by a military commission. The definition of ‘enemy combatant’ is “extremely broad and arbitrary.” This video leaflet uses text from the Center for Constitutional Rights, the Bill of Rights Defense Ctte, the ACLU, and Amnesty International. Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v32O_TwsXEY
**notes on below**
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D-WIS) (Senate floor) "The Military Commissions permits an individual to be convicted on the basis of coerced testimony and hearsay…does not allow full judicial review of the conviction…; allows someone convicted under these rules to be put to death.; denies detainees at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere people who have been held for years but have not been tried or even charged with any crime-the ability to challenge their detention in court.; seeks to suspend the Great Writ of habeas corpus. eliminates the right of habeas corpus for those detained as enemy combatants.; disallows the accused to argue that they are not, in fact, enemy combatants,; permits individuals to be convicted, and even sentenced to death, on the basis of coerced testimony."

CONGRESSMAN RON PAUL (R - TX) “the law officially allows for citizen concentration camp facilities..." "Right now we don't have concentration camps, but . . . the authority has been given so that concentration camps can come without Habeas Corpus."

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT) "The bill before us does not merely suspend the Great Writ, the Writ of Habeas Corpus. It just eliminates it permanently.”

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY) "The bill before us allows the admission into evidence of statements derived through cruel, inhuman and degrading interrogation. This bill undermines the Geneva Conventions.. Have we fallen so low as to debate how much torture we are willing to stomach? This law would give license to this Administration to pick people up off the streets of the United States and hold them indefinitely without charges and without legal recourse."

SEN. ARLEN SPECTPR (R-PA) said it “set us back 900 years,” then voted for it.

DEMS IN FAVOR OF PASSAGE Senate (12)
Carper (Del.), Johnson (S.D.), Landrieu (La.), Lautenberg (N.J.), Lieberman (Conn.), Menendez (N.J), Pryor (Ark.), Rockefeller (W. Va.), Salazar (Co.), Stabenow (Mich.), Nelson (Fla.), Nelson (Neb.)
GOP AGAINST Chaffee Rhode Island
Jeffords (Independent) against

links/sources
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...ked_powers.asp
MCA: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0061017-1.html
Feingold http://www.counterpunch.org/feingold09282006.html
Leahy: www.leahy.senate.gov/press/200609/092806c.html
Olbermann: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450
Greenwald: http://www.inblogs.net/glenngreenwal...460324274.html
Jennifer Van Bergen: http://www.counterpunch.org/vanbergen10142006.html

Geggy Jan 22nd, 2007 10:14 AM

the latest update...

http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=24806

I find this part especially creepy. Although it only applies to gitmo detainees, which most of them are being held for petty crimes and none relating to alqaeda/taliban/terrorist/etc, who knows the bush adminstartion may use it on what they view the us citizens as enemy combatants for criticizing them.

"The Pentagon has drafted a manual for upcoming detainee trials that would allow suspected terrorists to be convicted on hearsay evidence and coerced testimony and imprisoned or put to death.

According to a copy of the manual obtained by The Associated Press, a terror suspect's defense lawyer cannot reveal classified evidence in the person's defense until the government has a chance to review it."

KevinTheOmnivore Jan 22nd, 2007 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geggy
According to a copy of the manual obtained by The Associated Press, a terror suspect's defense lawyer cannot reveal classified evidence in the person's defense until the government has a chance to review it."

OUT-rageous!

Geggy Jan 22nd, 2007 03:10 PM

Well, the government has a history of fabricating and manipulating evidence while reviewing it, you know...?

Preechr Jan 22nd, 2007 03:57 PM

Thank God the internets don't have that problem

KevinTheOmnivore Jan 22nd, 2007 04:43 PM

Go Pats!

ranxer Jan 23rd, 2007 11:14 AM

maybe yall missed the point.. the bush regime can target anyone that is working to stop war and detain them indefinitly(or until the 'war of terror' is over), torture them and use the information from the tortured subject as 'legal' evidence against others. the Military Commissions Act aslo RETROACTIVLY absolves torturers from criminal charges. This makes America Truly a Dictatorship, the only confusion over the law is whether it applies right now or when martial law is in effect, i havn't read the whole thing yet but would really like to know which it is. even if it is only under martial law the law applies retroactivly so all they have to do is have some picture of an anti-war rally and place you there or have someone say you held a sign or some such. i imagine its possible that this is who they will put in the 600 some odd fema camps built by haliburten and friends(with our tax dollars)

has anyone looked at the threat to bloggers yet?
Bloggers might be fined $200,000 by the federal gov't
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/huston/070118
the bill is on hold at the moment but the threat is there.

Our Founders were true "grassroots" organizers. Without their words, we could not have won the Revolution.

Now the Federal government wants to destroy that same sort of process used to spur our citizens to free themselves from Monarchical despotism. The Federal government today wants to quash the ability of small citizen's groups to disseminate information to like minded people by instituting oppressive reporting rules and by claiming they are "lobbyists" bound by Congressional oversight. And if they don't they face oppressive fines.

Under the legislation, grass-roots organizations that attempt to "influence the general public" to contact members of Congress would have to register as lobbyists and file financial reports — or face a $200,000 fine. The requirements could apply to a preacher who goes on TV or radio and tells listeners to call their congressman in support of a particular issue, such as a constitutional amendment against homosexual "marriage."

It could also affect internet Bloggers and emailing services that advocate for certain policies or political positions before an audience of hundreds or thousands of continuing visitors to their sites.

But issue groups spanning the political spectrum — from National Right to Life and Focus on the Family to the League of Conservation Voters and the American Civil Liberties Union — say the expanded definition of lobbyist will imperil citizens' constitutional rights to free speech and to petition the government.

"This bill goes way too far," said Caroline Fredrickson, director of the ACLU's Washington legislative office. "This gets at the citizen groups who are really the ones making their voices heard about our democracy."

And so it does. With their ballot box win behind them and in their rush to fool the public that they are "doing something," the Democrats are trying to force a bill on the American people that is anti-American and little more than a refined version of the Alien and Sedition Acts of the 1790s that threw newspaper editors and political leaders in jail in this country.

Senator Robert F. Bennett (R., Utah) attempted to add an amendment to the bill that would exempt grassroots agencies.

"This should be struck from the bill," Mr. Bennett said. "I was taught in civics in high school that [contacting Congress members] was what we were supposed to do."

Not if your imperial Democratic Senate has their druthers, Mr. Bennett.

Our Founders fought for the God given rights of men and one of those rights is the right to free political speech. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine and many hundreds of their brothers at arms toiled for years behind their pens to raise the consciousness of their fellow citizens to free us from the shackles of the King. We bloggers are the direct descendants of the tract writers, newspaper publishers, and article authors who were our Founding Fathers.

Right now, they all are spinning in their graves as Congress tries to eliminate free speech.

Abcdxxxx Jan 23rd, 2007 11:33 AM

It's a trap! Why else would big brother attempt to pass their abuse of power through Congress? Onward, to the woods!!!

adept_ninja Jan 23rd, 2007 04:13 PM

1984 is one of the best books ever written so fuck you

ranxer Jan 23rd, 2007 05:54 PM

brilliant abcdx, why didn't i think of that.. hmm, maybe something
Senator Fiengold said:
" This is extremely broad, and key terms go undefined."

he goes on to say: "And by including hostilities not only against the United States but also against its allies, the bill allows the U.S. to hold and try by military commission individuals who have never engaged, directly or indirectly, in any action against the United States.
Not only that, but the bill would also define as an unlawful enemy combatant subject to trial by military commission, anyone who "has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense." This essentially grants a blank check to the executive branch to decide entirely on its own who can be tried by military commission."

ah, but congress said they could do that so it must be ok, civil, democratic and all that. no worries, GW, Cheney and Rove are honorable truthful folks.
anyway, there's no fricken woods deep enough to run to even if i wanted to run anywhere.

[/i][/b]

kahljorn Jan 23rd, 2007 09:13 PM

Senator Fiengold sounds like a fucking douche who takes things out of context.

Ant10708 Jan 23rd, 2007 09:57 PM

IT HAS BEGUN. I feel my rights being stripped away as we speak.

sspadowsky Jan 24th, 2007 10:40 AM

Kahljorn, Feingold is the only Senator who voted against the PATRIOT Act, from which I can infer that he's the only one who actually read it. Feingold is often, and sometimes the only, voice of reason in the Senate. He is one of the few who has regularly questioned the evil shit that this administration continually tries to push through. I suggest you learn a little more about the dude before dismissing him as a douchebag.

adept_ninja Jan 24th, 2007 03:07 PM

This is pretty crazy and disturbing shit but the video could have made a bit more of an impact by saying what exactly the commision defines as a "enemy combatant" because "extremely broad and arbitrary" is just that an extremely broad and arbitrary way to explain what the bill actually says.

ranxer Jan 24th, 2007 03:47 PM

Quote:

.. sounds like a fucking douche who takes things out of context.
maybe you missed it so here's a repeat of another douchbag

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA) said it “set us back 900 years."then voted for it. !!? wow!

bye bye habeas corpus, oh, but the CATO institute says U.S. citizens will probably still have the rights of habeas corpus.. hmm,
do we trust the cato institute? the fuzzy statements of the mca will have to be worked out in the courts. then again if one is detained under this law, no one needs to be notified, so how long will the missing persons report take to find out that so and so is being held in a secret location for donating money online to the wrong group(or whatever reason they have to wrap someone up)? the full effect of the mca supposedly only applies to 'aliens' so what part of the patriot act one or two strips citizenship? anyone read the whole thing?

kahljorn Jan 24th, 2007 08:23 PM

I said he SOUNDS like a douchebag because he did sound like a douchebag in that statement. I hate when people make this bill seem like ANYBODY ABSOLUTELY ANYWHERE CAN BE DETAINED AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER. It's fucking ridiculous. Look at what geggy said, "People trying to STOP the war can be detained and evidence from them can be used to detain others" or some shit. Douchebaggery, douchebagelry. By the very definition of the term, "NOnlawful enemy combatant" they must be 1) Enemies 2) Combatants and 3) nonlawful. From what I remember this law can't even be applied to American Citizens.

sspadowsky Jan 24th, 2007 09:05 PM

Quote:

I hate when people make this bill seem like ANYBODY ABSOLUTELY ANYWHERE CAN BE DETAINED AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER.
That's because they can, and it has been expanded to apply to American citizens, if they so desire. The government has already used the PATRIOT Act for shit that's totally unrelated to terrorism. That's not wacky conspiracy theory talk; it's irrefutable fucking fact.

Where power can be abused, it will be abused. This shit doesn't happen overnight. It's a gradual process, and Feingold recognizes the long-term implications. You sound like a short-sighted, well, douche.

kahljorn Jan 24th, 2007 09:45 PM

The patriot act hasn't been "Extended", it was written with other things in mind. That said, I don't appreciate things that are designed to combat terrorism being used to enforce drug laws. In the same way, I don't like to see people act all ridiculous about all the laws that are coming out without: having any reasons, providing reasons for their ridiculousness (because that makes it unridiculous) and without elucidating on those reasons.

When was it "Expanded" to include american citizens?

ps they can't be detained for ANY REASON WHATSOoveR and even if they were it probably wouldn't fly. "Yea we arrested this guy cause um he farted let's get this guy thrown in jail okay guys?"

kahljorn Jan 24th, 2007 10:56 PM

I think you're lying, misinformed, or stupid about it being expanded to include american citizens. Okay cause here's what I read tell me if this is old or unupdated or something:

Quote:

Sec. 948b. Military commissions generally

(a) Purpose- This chapter establishes procedures governing the use of military commissions to try alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against the United States for violations of the law of war and other offenses triable by military commission.
kay im guessing we all know what the word ALIEN means and ENEMY. How about ENGAGED IN HOSTILITIES though? is that a new one for you guys? or "Violations of the law of war"?

Quote:

(g) Geneva Conventions Not Establishing Source of Rights- No alien unlawful enemy combatant subject to trial by military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights
HMM ALIEN WORD AGAIN

Quote:

Sec. 948c. Persons subject to military commissions

Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter
There's that alien word again...

Quote:

(g) Geneva Conventions Not Establishing Source of Rights- No alien unlawful enemy combatant subject to trial by military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights.
the reasons all this bothers me is because it's panicing, unreasonable idiots who get ridiculous laws passed in the first place. It's not as if I want the law to fuck us over, I just want to know every little god damned reason so you know maybe those little god damned reasons could be addressed ;/

And look at that asshole ranxer acting like being at an ANTI WAR protest can make you eligible for this, "Excuse me competent tribunal, just look at THIS EVIDENCE OF HIM NOT WANTING THERE TO BE A WAR AT ALL, OUTRIGHT HOSTILITY AND TERRORIST ACTS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA."
Being anti-war is not hostile, not combative, DOESNT EVEN HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WAR other than not wanting it and it's fucking stupid to say it's at all relevant to this. I hate all of you geggy clones.

ranxer Jan 24th, 2007 11:16 PM

kahljorn, you act as if you belive the established government to be honorably using the powers it has.. seems we need to question that before we wonder how the military commissions act is applied. this thread was on the mca and nobody can deny that it's application will be worked out in the courts, ...when and if it's applied, the possible implications, still, are outrageous to some you must admit.

kahljorn Jan 24th, 2007 11:22 PM

I actually appreciate this law because at the very least it draws a distinction between people who fight honorably and people who fight like dirty cunts.

As for the holes in this that make abuses possible (which almost every law in the entire world has possible abuses associated with it) I would like to see them addressed and filled, but I don't see what addressing holes has to do with you saying that people at anti-war rallies who are united states citizens can be held as unlawful enemy combatants. That's just as much bullshit as you are accusing our government of wielding.

ps this act has actually been applied... to a foreign person with a terrorist-like name.

kahljorn Jan 25th, 2007 12:23 AM

More stuff from the bill:

"NOPBODY AWDFO:W KNOW ABOUT IT ECXCEPT PRESIDENT BUSH"

(1) ANNUAL REPORT REQUIRED.—Not later than December 31 each year, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the Armed Services Committees of the House of Representatives and the Senate an annual report on the conduct of trials by military commissions established pursuant to subsection (a) during such year.

Ҥ 948a. Definitions
“In this chapter: “(1) ALIEN.—The term ‘alien’ means an individual who is not a citizen of the United States.

Just so you know.

“(7) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—The term ‘unlawful enemy combatant’ means an individual determined by or under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense—
“(A) to be part of or affiliated with a force or organization—including but not limited to al Qaeda, the Taliban, any international terrorist organization, or associated forces—engaged in hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents in violation of the law of war;
“(B) to have committed a hostile act in aid of such a force or organization so engaged; or
“(C) to have supported hostilities in aid of such a force or organization so engaged.
“This definition includes any individual determined by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal, before the effective date of this Act, to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant, but excludes any alien determined by the President or the Secretary of Defense (whether on an individualized or collective basis), or by any competent tribunal established under their authority, to be
(i) a lawful enemy combatant (including a prisoner of war), or
(ii) a protected person whose trial by these military commissions would be inconsistent with Articles 64-76 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of August 12, 1949. For purposes of this section, the term “protected person” refers to the category of persons described in Article 4 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of August 12, 1949.

Okay so again someone at a peace rally could not be charged as an alien unlawful enemy combatant. Neither could a lawful combatant. Neither could a fucking united states citizen. Now shut your fucking assholes.
Apparantly, the only hole (a small hole) in all of this is that the definition of the term, "Unlawful enemy combatant" does not have "Alien" before it or necessarily in it (It mentions it once but not very strongly). Regardless, though, all of the actual laws and stipulations clearly have ALIEN before it and are clearly addressed at non-citizens especially since this entire fucking bill is about non-citizens and people who are at war with us-- ENEMIES. I'm pretty sure just about EVERYONE, even legal scholars who previously disagreed with this, have already come to that conclusion and most everything else has been dismissed. You guys are living in the past.

Geggy Jan 25th, 2007 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sspadowsky
Kahljorn, Feingold is the only Senator who voted against the PATRIOT Act, from which I can infer that he's the only one who actually read it. Feingold is often, and sometimes the only, voice of reason in the Senate. He is one of the few who has regularly questioned the evil shit that this administration continually tries to push through. I suggest you learn a little more about the dude before dismissing him as a douchebag.

He was not the only one who read the entire patriot act. Dasche and Leahy also read the whole first draft. Because they wanted to preserve the civil liberties without giving it up for security, they initially opposed the patriot act, calling it outrageous, and were reluctant in signing it into full effect unless modifications were made then they were willing to compromise. Because of that, it slowed down the process of implementing patriot act. Interesting sidenote, out of the blue during the process, both Dasche and Leahy were sent US military graded anthrax laced letters, in which the anthrax cases were never solved, and patriot act was put in effect immediately after the scare.

Kahl,

http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp...2&nav=menu73_2

sspadowsky Jan 25th, 2007 08:14 AM

Sorry, Kahl, I got this one mixed up with the PATRIOT Act. Under the PATRIOT Act, anyone, including a US Citizen, whom the president determines to be an enemy combatant, my be held indefinitely, without charge, or access to a lawyer. My mistake.

kahljorn Jan 25th, 2007 11:33 AM

no problem dude.

Look guys(geggy), I hate the PATRIOT act too, but I don't see what the PATRIOT act has to do with a law designed to clearly define what a war crime is. It's actually designed to protect legitimate soldiers.


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