America- Love it or leave it
 

I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. Many things I've seen and heard trouble me an awful lot, and I don't like the direction in which our country is headed.

Since I'm at work, I don't have time to list all the details, but I'm very strongly considering the possibility of going elsewhere. The next election will be a large determining factor.

In the meantime, do any of you folks elsewhere in the world have any locations to suggest?

Pre-emptive strike: Any of you uber-patriot types can stick it. I've got my reasons for this, so don't even bother with any idiotic rants.

I supose I could suggest Australia. It has a good standard of living and a good healthcare system (that is being slowly torn apart...).

The weather is good and the people are friendly.

It has alot of America in it, but no murders everyday.

Good food.

EDIT: But I don't like the way the country is, or where it is heading. Go to Venezuela.

But you should stay in America, help change it....

Yeah, Sam, we need your vote.

Seriously though, while I still firmly belive the United States will pendulum back toward the center and that this administration will unravel itself much the way Nixon's did, I have to admit I harbor fears I never have before.

I never for instance imagined living in a time where a chief executive I disliked so much might find himself in a position to declare Martial Law, and except for Nixon, I never lived under one who I think would concider doing it.

That being said, Canada is probably too close for comfort.

Oh, believe me, I'll be voting. But I understand that the new voting machines leave no paper trail, and that they will be the means of voting in the next election.

If Dubya wins, I'm packing my bags. I was thinking Europe, but I'm open to suggestions.

Just go to Canada.

Hell, the reason I badmouth it is because I don't want other people considering it during the mass migration, and that way, there'll be more land for me.

Shhh, we really don't want more of you boorish Yankees up here. ;)

Seriously, Vancouver is a nice, but it's becoming occupied by the irritating noveaux riche (most of them come from California). Toronto's okay, but people are way too stuck-up for my liking (great hockey town, though). Calgary is close to some beautiful mountain vistas, like Banff, and is a stone's throw away from the Canadian Rockies, but it gets colder than a witch's teat in winter.

My preferred destination: Montreal. The coolest people in North America live there, and the most attractive girls on the planet go to McGill. It has a great arts scene, is ultra liberal and has more strip clubs controlled by the Hell's Angels than any city in the world.

So, because you disagree with the current administration, you are going to leave? In other words, the system is ok as long as you come out on top. Great attitude.

I never said "love it or leave it". One of the best things about this country is the way the average guy does make a difference( no matter what certain people here will say). I think its great the way so many different opinions can express themselves so freely. But, you are ready to leave as soon as things seem to not go your way.

Fine. You won't be missed. I hope you feel better sniping from afar and taking the coward's route.

I think Clinton was one of the worste president's ever. I was sick when he was re-elected. But did I make threats to skip the country? Hell no. I understood that in a democracy, somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. My opinion at the time was not amongst the majority of voters. I still held my opinion, but accepted that this was the way the system worked.

Is this country perfect? No, far from. There are lots of things I want to change, but I know turning tail and running won't fix it. My parents came here for a reason and it wasn't so I could live in Canada.

Of course, you could just be some little drama queen begging for people to pay attention like most people who use that ploy (on this board at least).

mm, montreal. :)

don't go spad! we need everybody to turn this wrong headed beast around.

I'm not leaving till i serve a prison sentence for expressing my rights! hmm, or for wearing a puffy jacket etc.. er.. maybe I'm not leaving till chomsky, and kathy kelly are in prison.. oops, we're halfway there. oh well, i'm not leaving for at least 4 years anyway damnit!

re: voting paper trail
i thought the new voting machines won't be ready till 2005.

i've got a buddy that goes to central america somewheres and he says the american population there doubles every 4 months in the last year.. and those folks aren't on vacation!

El Blanco, I respectfully disagree. That's coming from someone who will almost certainly stay.

But not without trepadation.

Reagan? I felt like I held the short end of the stick?

Bush I? Very short end from my perspective.

This feels qualatatively different for me. It approaches how I would hve felt (only approaches at this point) during the McCarthy Era. I feel our democracy is threatened. Now the country swung away from McCarthy, and we haven't gone so far yet, but this administration frightens me in ways I have never felt before. I feel they are capable of things there predecessors have not been, and I feel they are far more agressively activist than anything I've ever seen. Well before 9/11 W. was acting like a President who'd won a landslide as opposed to an electoral college victor. I think he feels his mandate comes not from his constituents but from God.

The main reason I'm alive is that at some point my great grandparents knew life was no longer tenable in Russia, Poland, and Germany. If they'd picked rance for their destination, I'd almost certainly never have gotten born. This makes me feel a great deal of loyalty to the United States. But it's also a history that makes me wonder at what point do you see the writting on the wall and think of Grandchildren yet to be.

I never even thought along these lines, it never even crossed my mind until I saw what I think is this administration's active use of 9/11 to futher it's agenda as quickly and as far as possible in every arena. For me this isn't Reagan and it isn't Bush I. This is something entirely different.

Fuck you, you arrogant rat-bastard prick. I said I have my reasons and don't have time to list them all. Taking the coward's route? I invite you to blow me. I guess all the people who came here from China or India ar wherever else, because they weren't satisfied with how things were in their homeland, must've been cowards too, huh?

I am well aware that our country is not perfect, but it's getting much farther from perfect every day, especially under the current administration. People need to get used to the idea that, while it may not end in our lifetime, this country is not going to be around forever. I see bad things on the horizon. Time will tell.

And what is this about "making threats"? I made a simple statement, and specifically said for assholes like you to save your comments.

Ignorant fucks always say "love it or leave it," so now I'm getting bitched at because I'm considering the possibility of leaving it? Suck my white ass, Blanco.

I just read Max's post, and his statements closely, but not entirely, reflect my reasons. And, as I said, time will tell.

I just wanted to say that El Blanco is wrong. You WILL be missed if you leave, Spad.

I can't blame you for wanting to get out, I have this foreboding sense of dread as well, like there are horrible things on the horizon, but I also feel like the pendulum will swing back, later if not sooner.

I currently have no intentions of leaving this country, but I can certainly identify with those who do. I absolutely do not think Bush will get re-elected, and even if he does, I'm going to hold out hope that he doesn't do too much more damage.

Regardless of what happens, I hope you don't leave Spad, because I think we need people like you who are well informed and vehemently outspoken against the bullshit now more than ever.

Thanks, Proto. You're a good Joe. :(

Don't get the wrong impression here. It's not like I've got my bags packed and am standing at the harbor, waiting for the first boat out of here. We'll see what happens in the next couple of years. If Bush gets elected (not re-elected), I'm gone. The man is dangerous, and, like Max, I am frightened by his actions and his agenda.

I think this country is rotting from the inside out. I think we're too ignorant and self-absorbed, and too caught up in being consumer whores and sports fans, to pay attention to the truly important shit, because the truly important shit is boring. And over the next several years, if this country stays its course, things will get worse incrementally, until it's a true police state, and it'll be too late to do much about it. We don't need to worry about terrorism threatening this country- odds are that we'll end up destroying it ourselves, through our own ignorance.

The reason you emphasized was that you don't like the current administration.

So, where are the Purges here? Are you living in abject poverty with no real hope of recovery? Is there a plague bursting out here? Has your back yard been carpet bombed lately?

Most of those people went a speciffic country (usually USA sometimes Canada or England) because that country gave them a better situation. You just are running away from a spot that doesn't perfectly cater to your political ideals. Big fucking difference.

If you move to another country because that country gives you a better situation to raise your kids or something, I wouldn't bitch about that. But you are scurrying away with your tail between your legs because you don't like the president. And you'll make your snipes from afar and come back when another president you like gets elected.

So your solution is to run? You think this as bad as its been or that this is the worste threat we've ever seen? Give me a fucking break and pick up a history book.

"If you don't agree with me, shut up." Fuck you. You posted on a message board where everyone can see it, retard. Don't get pissy because someone with a difference in opinion responds. Thats what bloggers are for.

And I think its a stupid thing to say. And if their so ignorant, why are you taking their advice?

You're doing it like some snotty little brat who takes his ball and goes home.


And Max, I see why your grandparents moved. But, its a lot different here. The factors are a lot different. Soldiers aren't breaking your doors down to drag you to a concentration camp( armed populace after all). If a dictator ever does sieze power, it will only because the victim mentality sspad seems to be embracing made it possible. The government is only as powerful as we let it be. And don't you think comparing Bush to Hitler and Stalin is just a little disrespectful to your grandparents and thje victims of those lunatics? [/quote]

I, too, will miss you if you decide to go, Sspad. You're like the older friend who would buy me and my buddies beer when we were only 14.


Still, if you do go, stay the hell out of Canada. I called it first!

I still fail to understand the need that uber-patriots feel to force their own "America is great" feelings on everyone else who happens to live here. Know why my ancestors immigrated? They were offered free land. If they had gotten land in the Netherlands or Denmark they probably would have had exactly the same lifestyle. So what do I owe the United States? What enormous obligation do I or does sspad have to stick with a nation that we might like to leave behind?

Winnipeg is nice, unless you're looking for a decent job. :P

I've had the same feeling about Western society in general, actually. I mean, in this age of supposed globalism and accessible information, the electorate in various Western democracies have blinders on their eyes, and are ignorant of what is going on not only internationally, but within their own borders. As long as they get to drive their SUVs and to sit comfortably in their leather chairs on 'Must See TV' night, people are content to leaving matters of state to scoundrels and incompetents. In explaining the workings of democracies, academics and pundits like to bring up the concept of checks and balances to describe how each of the three traditional branches of government is a watchdog of the other two. I think a fourth entity needs to be factored into this discussion, and that is the voting public at large. Democracy only works when the citizenry is informed and active in questioning the policies of the administration of the day.

lol, armed populace my ass. I am sure the military is SOOO scared of your daddys shotgun.

Are you intentionally being stupid? That expression implies that I am somehow depriving other people of something important or necessary to them. Not the case, my white friend. I am simply saying, "You know, I don't feel too keen on how things are going here. I just might mosey on to somewhere else."

So why is it that you're taking this as some affront? Though you have the right to bitch me out for what I think, I still have the right to say what I think. And I'll just be terribly heartbroken if you somehow think less of me.

So fucking what? Do I have to wait until it gets to that point to feel justified? I don't know what's down the road a few years, but I don't like the prospects. I think you're "misunderestimating" the Bush regime.

Hey, I'll be around a while yet. I'll be voting and writing my congressmen and working with the ACLU, of which I am a member, and all that other good stuff, to try and make a difference. I hope it works. But if things keep going in the direction they're going right now, I don't plan on sticking around a lot longer.

Let's put it this way: If you're trapped in a buillding with a time bomb, are you going to try to get out while you've got fifteen minutes left, or are you going to wait until you're down to ten seconds?

I don't think Bush is Stalin or Hitler. I think he is a precursor. Writting on the wall is what you see before Jackboots in the street. This administration is pushing the nevelope of the possible. Sticking their toes in the water of doing away with habeus Corpus, making a trial run at concentration camps and disapearances. It's early days, but if I were ever to go, I'd want to go as an emigree and not a refugee.

I think we'll get through this, and I think that we'll look back on some of the things our government is doing now with the same sort of shame we regard McCarthy and Japanese interment camps.

It's not that I don't think there's an outside threat. I just think we've reacted to it as badly as we could have. I think we fought the wrong people for the wrong reasons and aliented at allies and threw away the enormous good will we briefly had. I think that sayimng we are at 'War' with terrorists, instead of pursuing criminals, creates a war that isn't meant to end. I think it's 'war' becuase presidents acrue extroadinary powers during war time.

A lot of my relatives hung around Europe just a little too long. I think the trick is in not waiting for the purges and pogroms but seeing them on the horizon.

I don't see them. I see the conditions for them potentially arising. But I have two little girls and sometimes I wonder if my eyesight is trustworthy enough.

It depends on whether Keanu Willis is the renegade cowboy cop on duty who does things his own damn way.

YOU'RE A LOOSE CAN KEANU WILLIS! ONE MORE SCREW UP AND I'LL HAVE YOUR BADGE!!

Ha, that's too funny a typo to edit. I'd hate to ruin your joke.

Well, Sspad, I always thought if worse came to worse, I'd go to France. But the French Gov't has an increasingly right-wing stranglehold, and there's a lot of tension between the Arabs and the Jews. Jacques Chirac is alright, but he practically had a Fascist running against him last time. Even its movie industry, which has churned out some of my favorite movies ever, is moving toward making more conventional, less inspired movies.

Like Proto, I have no plans of leaving our country, but if I did, I'd pick Switzerland. It's neutral, the Geography is nice, and they make nice knives.