[Abcdxxxx]

Okay Zukhov you're really dense. I'm not saying you're antisemetic, I'm saying your arguments against the existance and legitmacy of Socialist Zionism recalls some of the same antisemetic rhetoric used against Jews for as long as antisemetism has existed.

Obviously Zionism and Jewishness are two different things, which is why there were even Muslim Zionists, and Christian Zionists. With that said, the word Zionist has become code for "oppotunistic Jew", and when people speak of Zionists, they are most certainly talking about Jews. My problem is with people like yourself demonizing Zionism when you have such a narrow view. It's false to say that "Jewish Nationalism followed Anti-Semetism". Even under Marxist terms, the Jews have always been a nation, and every bit of Judaic teachings speak of creating an inclusive nation of Israel. I'll say it again, The Romans of Ancient times viewed Jews and their adherance to the Torah above their own laws as Nationalistic, and this resulted in the birth of what we now call antisemetism. To be critical of Jewish Nationalism is to be critical of the religion itself. Even under Marxist terms, Judaism is a nation, and confirms the existance of a diaspora.

Who was responsible for Zionism if not the various names and parties I dropped? How did these socialist style programs become a part of daily life in Israel if they had no part in the formation of Zionism or the State of Israel? Zionism was made up of many theories, but the most prevelant were the Socialists, REGARDLESS of their purpose. They could have brough Socialist ideals to cooking school and it would not matter WHY they did it. They still did it. What you're not understanding is there were Socialists within the Zionist party who would agree with some of the things you're saying.... but they ended up leaving the Socialist Labor movement and becoming the Jabotinsky's of the world. They still retained many of their original ideas originated while active Marxists, Socialists, whatevers. Look, really I'm sorry this is too complex for you.

Your information on the Histadrut is false, and full of simplistic and misleading claims. Israel has began to shift away from it's Socialist roots, and embrace a more Capatilist Democracy at the insistance of the US. This is recent, and with controversy.

Zukhov: "Nationalists support their own bourgeoise and middle classes, instead of suppoting their own class in other countries. Class collaboration is not a principle of Communism or Socialism, be it in the form seen in Spain during the 1930s by the Stalinists, or in normal everyday Capitalism."

Right well, Marxist Zionists believed in a reverse pyramid. Socialist Zionists didn't do anything to support the bourgeoise or middle class, and sought out their own land to be classless. Antisemetism played a part in that Jews realized they were being percieved as different, to their disliking, and prevented their inclusion into a universal class. The book that inspired Zionism came from a Socialist while he was a Socialist. There were many versions of Zionism, including the one that intended to make one land for all peoples, so it's shallow of you to believe Zionism discounts any other theories. Zionism wasn't a theory of itself. Is that clear to you? Even your cutting and pasting backs up what I'm saying. One can and has applied Socialist principles to forming Statehood. Where Socialists like yourself look stupid is to "negate" every actual application of Socialism in a practical sense, declaring it as not really Socialism. Under that naivety nothing is Communist, nothing is Socialist, and nothing truly represents these ideals except for some annoying utopian dream derived from dated theories created by the bourgeoise itself, and known racists, for personal gain.
Oh and as for Lenin... even he never succeeded in implimenting the types of social programs found in Israel, so it's all hot air.

(edited for typos)