[kahljorn]

Preechr: Face it: Nobody on this planet has been raised through childhood with an intact environmentally unaffected view of a universe absent a Deity. Atheists believe in an absense of God, which is a belief in God.

Or maybe atheists know that the universe doesn't require a god and the thiests just believe in the absence of the lack of requirement of a god, which is a belief in the lack of requirement of a God. So it's really religion that's fictional!

Your statement is riddled with the presumption that god exists and that all thought is an attempt to get away from God, when really, I think at least, all thought is designed to understand "God."

Anyway, the other thing I said is that perhaps what athiests believe in when it comes to the universe and morality can be similar to what a religion thinks because the notion of "God" is kind of a label that attaches some type of trait but maybe "God" isn't something all that special, and maybe athiests can just attach a seperate label to the same thing and have the same understanding as if they considered it "God." Maybe they call it "Todd."

as to your pm response which you sent I thought of a better example than balls rolling down hills. Is it possible that a complex organism could work better with it's insides outside and outside inside? The mouth, eyes and nose could be where the stomach is, and the mouth could be some gross tube shaped organ. Is it even theoretically possible that such a thing could exist and thrive, short of having the universe inside it or something?
Does it require a God to make it like that?

The basic fiber of existence, if that's the best you can do when you get around to coming up with names for things, brings into existence"

Well, what is the first and most essential thing that is required for anything to exist? Existence?

I see the world and the universe as a beautiful and wonderful thing, and I find it very difficult to summarily write that off to happenstance.

Me too, but do you think that God personally painted the shit or that the various forces of nature formed it through a long process? I think God might be that process and the possibility of a process. How else could God have the qualities of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence?
But that's irrelevant. Whatever you're saying, the thing you're relying on the most is that things having a design, and being so beautiful, necessarily entails that there is a designer or artist behind everything. What I'm saying is that it's not necessary for there to be a designer, because there are certain things which likely could not be changed. It's just like you said, "If everything changed, then everything would change (or disappear)." But maybe, because of this, it is impossible to truly change.

Your basic fiber of existence is responsible for the perfection of the universe that contains us, as silly and self-destructive as we are.

I guess. Maybe that's just part of the design or something i dont know dude why don't you take it to the pastor. Oh wait here's an answer: I don't know maybe this is a contradictive statement! "SO PERFECT" "SO SILLY AND SELF-DESTRUCTIVE." Perfection is self-destructive and silly, apparantly. Maybe the notion of perfection is silly and smug.

but your basic fiber of existence decided for whatever reason to hand us the reigns, at least from what I perceive your point of view to be.

Decide? Decision making authority? I don't know what to say about this right now, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it necessitates this being a "Decision." Why does the universe have to be some fucking dialogue for you are you insane or something. "What will you have, Mr. God" "i think I'll have an entire race of thinking human beings which contemplate my existence all the time but they can never guess it right because they never guess that I'm just a regular guy in a tuxedo."

and why do you think humans have the "Reigns?" What type of gangelous cockfaced deranged monster are you? More like left the reigns fucking dangling while he ditched the cart on the side of the road and we've been stuggling to grab them but we're only 1 mm tall.