[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Sethomas

Zhukov- Maybe I should have more clearly articulated my exclusion of "non-religious or agnostics". Look, even if a child is raised in a predominantly (religious inclination) background by parents who don't actively pull him into that religious tradition and so he has neither an informed view of religion nor of atheism, it's dishonest to call him anything other than "non-religious". As popular as the term "atheism" is, I think it should be reserved for people who make a conscious decision to not believe in a god.

That's a fair enough point, I mean, the word athiest is obviously derrived from the word theist (or the other way around, whatever, I don't care) but I would still argue that most "athiests" these days are simply "non-religious", and so worrying about how many people ignore the arguments for or against god is still time poorly spent, since most "athiests" in the world are meerely calling themselves that for lack of a better term. In fact, if you religious types are going to get up in our faces about it, I suggest we invent a term that we can call ourselves so that we are not merely anti-theists, but pro-something-or-other.

I was saying that the medieval Church was a force that maintained social cohesion in resistance to the outside forces on Europe that would otherwise turn it into a bunch of disjointed Hobbesian states. The Church sponsored science and art and all that, sure, but it was most critical in arbitrating the formation of the nation states as we know them today. My comparison to Africa was in reference to the fact that it's virtually one giant civil war where the maps have to change every year.

Well my medieval intellect is pretty poor, but you don't think that the hundreds (er, maybe?) of destroyed nation states of Europe warrant a mention? Bohemia? Burgundy? Err... other ones? Are those ones even ones? Just a thought; I figured that there were a lot of European wars, and the only reason they stopped was because capitalism does better without conflict in the market, and if they didn't stop then they would blow themselves to eternity.

I do, however, think that you are judging Africa a little too harshly. It's not it's lack of Catholic Church that are the reasons behind the modern day genocides and civil wars; it's the (cliché time) European imperialism and Africa's lack of straight development. Socioeconomically developing far behind Europe and Asia due to it's lack of crop food agriculture, Africa was still in a tribal, pre-feudalist time period when it was invaded, raped for slaves and resources, turned into colonial nation states and eventually given modern weapons to wage war agaisnt itself on tribal lines. But that's neither here nor there.

I still think that religion and early development of mankind goes hand in hand, so it's pointless to argue about where we would be without the church, but I will say that not only did the church have no influence on how far we are 'ahead' of Africa (which you have pointed out was not your intention to argue) but ... hmmm, I think I forgot.. no, wait, Capitalism and arms development probably play a larger role in the peace of Europe in modern times than the church of medieval times. I don't think I'm arguing against what you said anymore. I guess I'll just end with "you can't compare the two".

Too early to tell, honestly. To me the big difference is that when Rome fell Byzantium stood to the side and laughed, although this later turned out to be a myopic disaster for them. While the USSR wasn't gifted with anything like The Marshall Plan when it collapsed, it still shared the world with another superpower and a plethora of large economies that each had a vested interest in not letting the Soviet states become a economic black hole. If you factor in the arms trade to Africa when the Soviet army no longer had use for its arsenal, you could certainly argue that the immediate fallout of the Soviet Union was far bloodier than the fall of Rome.

Too early to tell? Perhaps, but I think that the period for observation has to be greatly shortened than in comparison to that after the fall of Rome; the USSR came and went in 70 years, things happen faster (can't think of a better phrase right now, it will do) in modern times. More bloody? Yes, but a million deaths is just a statistic nowadays.


Kahl, I thought you meant like 12" Vinyl, and I was like "hell yeah it was dark without records".