Advice to John Kerry

[davinxtk]

Our treatment isn't what I'm questioning, it's the very fact that we're the ones running things that they're fighting, and that's what I'm opposed to.
I realize that for the time being we don't have much of a choice, but that doesn't make Moore anti-American for voicing this opinion!

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by davinxtk

Our treatment isn't what I'm questioning, it's the very fact that we're the ones running things that they're fighting, and that's what I'm opposed to.
I realize that for the time being we don't have much of a choice, but that doesn't make Moore anti-American for voicing this opinion!

Hoping for the American soldiers to be driven out by insurgents. How is that not anti-American?

[Drew Katsikas]

People like Moore are seen to be anti-American by many more than those who listen to far right conservative pundits. Again, adressing those people who have killed Americans as minutemen will always do the trick.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ArtificialBrandon

When did I say I agreed with Hagel, Kevin? Never. I never praised Rumsfeld's choice of words, either. But this thread isn't about Rumsfeld or Hagel, it's about Michael Moore. Stick to the fucking subject you childish piece of shit.

Aww, Brandon has no argument so he's getting huffy. It's ok, buddy.

It's about Michael Moore. It's about Michael Moore's comments making him unamerican, right? Do you follow thus far? Good. So, is Sen. Hagel unamerivcan? Should John Kerry condemn Sen. Hagel for being so anti-troops and so anti-american...? Answer this question, and then go get a tissue.

As for international involvement, you need look no further than Kosovo if you want to see how marvelous the U.N. is at handling caustic situations. THAT is a fucking quagmire, Kevin.

No, it's really not. That situation was, and has been, the proverbial "quagmire" before the UN, NATO, or the U.S. even touched it. The UN didn't make Kosovo unstable, nor did a sloppy bombing campaign on our part, for that matter. So what the hell is your point?

And aside from that one lame example you thought up, there are numerous examples that substantiate why we should work through the UN. One of them being the success of programs like UNICEF, and other aid providing services. UN vans get shot at, certainly, but not nearly as much as American troops. The UN also facilitates and assists in the monitoring of elections in unstable countries all around the world.

So Brandon, yet another question for you to answer. Do you support sending more American troops to die, or do you support internationalizing the effort through the UN? If you agree with the former, then you find yourself in the same boat as "unamerican" Michael Moore.

If the majority of this board is considered "intelligent," I'd rather be stupid.

Blah, blah....you need to get your head out of your ass. You accuse everyone here of reverting to "emotional arguments," and then you make an idiotic statement like "wah wah! People here only hate bad things when Americans do it! Wah wah! Where's my nookie!!?"

Meanwhile, most people on this board condemned the killers in Fallujah for the pigs they are/were. I personally bought the argument in favor of killing Yassin, and could care less about Hamas. I prefer alternatives to violence, but when bad guys die, I don't cry so much. You made a stupid, moronic, and baseless statement, and you deserve to be held accountable for it. If you're going to make such a claim, then back it up, or shut the fuck up. I'm tired of you playing the victim here.

[Brandon]

It's about Michael Moore. It's about Michael Moore's comments making him unamerican, right? Do you follow thus far? Good. So, is Sen. Hagel unamerivcan? Should John Kerry condemn Sen. Hagel for being so anti-troops and so anti-american...? Answer this question, and then go get a tissue.

As much as I disagree with Senator Hagel's comments, I fail to see how they're anti-American.

That situation was, and has been, the proverbial "quagmire" before the UN, NATO, or the U.S. even touched it. The UN didn't make Kosovo unstable, nor did a sloppy bombing campaign on our part, for that matter. So what the hell is your point?

My point is that, regardless of whether or not the region was unstable to begin with, the United Nations hasn't stabilized Kosovo.

So Brandon, yet another question for you to answer. Do you support sending more American troops to die, or do you support internationalizing the effort through the UN? If you agree with the former, then you find yourself in the same boat as "unamerican" Michael Moore.

How would agreeing with the former put me in the same boat as Michael Moore? Why do you assume that the only other option than UN intervention is miserable failure? And just FYI, the US has been attempting to get the UN involved for some time now. They've declined, saying the situation is "too dangerous." Doesn't that just fill you with confidence in their abilities?

You made a stupid, moronic, and baseless statement, and you deserve to be held accountable for it.

Deserve to be held accountable for it? It's a fucking message board.

Oh, by the way Kevin, have I ever told you how much I love you?

[Anonymouse]

Here is my advice to John Kerry:

WAIST DEEP IN THE BIG MUDDY

It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That's how it all begun.
We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?"
"Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
'Bout a mile above this place.
It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We'll soon be on dry ground."
We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim."
"Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie,"
The Captain said to him.
"All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I'll lead on."
We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain's helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, "Turn around men!
I'm in charge from now on."
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.

We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper
Than the place he'd once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.

Well, I'm not going to point any moral;
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.

Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

Words and music by Pete Seeger (1967)
TRO (c) 1967 Melody Trails, Inc. New York, NY

[mburbank]

So you were just perusing his website, right? You didn't read about the quote and then follow a link there?
-Me

What the hell does that have to do with anything, Max?
-You

It has to do with my contention that you are allowing yourself to be manipulated. You were driven like a cow to a speciffic set of sentences that would make your blood boil, and it did. I've doone the same thing, but I promise you, I'm always thinking about and suspicious of the motives of the folks doing the driving. They had a goal for you and they achieved it. Go back and look at the site you followed the link from. What's their agenda? High minded debate? Information? Education? They want you to believe a quotes a quote and their moytives don't enter into it. Both sides have massive spin machines and they writ th context in which you'll view whatever you've been steered to. Don't trust them. Think for yourself.

If you look back at the things I've written here, I've rarely tried to convince you (or bully you). I'm asking that you asses how you come to your opinions with rigour and self respect. Don't be someone's chump. THAT's what the hell it has to do with anything.

"Hoping for the American soldiers to be driven out by insurgents. How is that not anti-American?"

Well, lets see. I think this is a war of adventure and I totally feel that pre-emption is a dangerous concept that strikes at the very heart of what I think America is. I think everyone that dies in this needless war on either side digs away at who we are as a people. I feel that every doollar we spend on this war makes us more vulnerable becuase this isn't about Terrorists. If I had my choice, a new president would de-americanize this war, which would be very good thing for America. But if Bush, who I think is dangerous to America wins, I hope we get driven out of Iraq by the insurgents. becuase less american kids would die and we'd stop exporting a military vision of merica I think is utterly NOT in keeping with the things I deeply love about my country. This isn't a football game. I'm not rooting for a side. I love my country and think this war and this dministration is doing terrible, tragic damage to it that it will take generations to recover from.


"We hate who, Max? The common Iraqi? The insurgents? "

If you are making a claim that anyone in this country let alone this dministration has a handle on who's who in Iraq and what they want I think you are sorely mistaken. We can roughly divide them into three ethnic groups, but beyond that we haven't got a clue. All of this talk about 'insurgents' and 'dead enders' and 'baath party holdouts' and 'Islamic extremists' is just a list we're adding to every day. We don't know who we're fighting and we don't know who's on our side. One tenth of the police we trained fought against us. Most of the rest stayed home. We don't have any idea who or what the common Iraqi is. I'm guessing what you mean by the common iraqi are the ones who greeted us with flowers and candy and still love us now. There my be some, there may be a great many, but we have no idea if they are 'common' or not.

"No, it just means that I'm not willing to call the war a total moral outrage because the administration acted unethically in lying about the reasons."

That's where we disagree. I think a war is a pretty big deal, and I think wars unethically based on lies ARE a total moral outrage. The only thing I can think of more morally outrageous are wars of pure agression and conquest, and genocide. That's like saying beating someone isn't so bad as long as you don't rape and kill them.

"Calling Michael Moore a traitor is not an emotional appeal. "
Calling an American citizen a traitor is a very serious statement. It's the tip of the iceberg McCarthy built his adventure on. Calling someone traitor for saying something is appallingly unamerican and to me highly emotionally charged. That's why Ms. Coulter likes to do it, it's a red meat word. Perhaps you used it glibly and what you really meant was 'scumbag'. I'd disagree, but then I think our president is a scumbag, and he's not just a writer, he' commander in chief. I would never call him a traitor though. Traitors are people guilty of treason. Treason is a crime punishable by imprisonment and death. Calling Moore a traitor what he writes is one step removed from Muslim extremists issuing a Fattwah on Salman Rushdie.

"leaving Saddam in power would have caused more suffering and death in the long run."
Thanks, Psychic Brandon. I might agree with you there, but I'm not so sure I know, especially since we have no way of knowing how long things are going to go the way they're going right now. Yesterday a terrorist group, most likely Al Quaeda, blew up a whole bunch of people including two buses of kindergarten kids. Now, we didn't do that, and don't think we're to blame. But Al Quadea had no foothold under Sadaam, and never carried out any terrorist attacks in Iraq. Try telling the parents of those kids they're better off in the long run since we toppled their dictator. It's very easy for us to say they're better off.