Thank God this doesn't apply to the Catholic Church!

[Big Papa Goat]

Wearing clothes woven of two fabrics is a sin too (leviticus 19:19)
Also, a woman must not wear the clothing of a man, nor a man the clothing of a women, for the LORD detests this (deuteronomy 22:5)
Women who get married without being virgins are to be stoned to death in front of their fathers houses (deuteronomy 22:20) and a man who sleeps with another mans wife is to be killed, as with the wife. (deuteronomy 22:21) If a man sleeps with a woman who is betrothed to be married, death to both, but if he rapes her, then death to him UNLESS the woman wasn't betrothed to be married, in which case the penalty for rape (read: the stealing of reproductive potential from the man [since men are the only ones who actually have reproductive/property rights] who is married/going to be married to the woman :biopolitics) the penalty will be a fine of fifty shekels of silver (approximately a kilogram) and must MARRY the woman and NEVER DIVORCE her. (deuteronomy 22:25-29) It's amazing how... we need a thread about biopolitics, but damned if I'm starting it =/

Homsexual relationships are to be punished with death (leviticus 20:13), and its interesting that it is originally mentioned between the prohibition against sacrificing babies to pagan gods and bestiality,(leviticus 18:21-23) so maybe its considered more serious then say, having sex with some non-blood relative. It's pretty much all death or exile in the punishments chapter, leviticus 20 though.

Bit of a tanget, but what I'm basically trying to say is that Christians seem kinda choosy about their obeying of Mosaic law, and not just the silly rules about shellfish and pork.

So anyway, don't tax non-commercial institutions like churches. It's a dumb idea, churches aren't there to make money, and as for revoking their tax exempt status because of political involvment, they're an important part of a pluralist democracy and shouldn't be supressed. I don't think its neccesarily that bad a thing for priests to be politicking from the pulpit, it's a good way for an ethical perspective to get some influence on political agendas. Even if they don't have perfectly consistent morality, they are still entitled to express their values in the public sphere, like anyone else. Thats what politics, and democratic politics is about. Ya, people trying to get laws passed to "benefit" them. Democracy.

[kellychaos]

I saw a Crusades documentary on the History Channel over the weekend. I found it very interesting that a number of modern banking practices were derived from the "protection" services offered by Templar knights to the pilgrims.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Big Papa Goat

So anyway, don't tax non-commercial institutions like churches. It's a dumb idea, churches aren't there to make money, and as for revoking their tax exempt status because of political involvment, they're an important part of a pluralist democracy and shouldn't be supressed. I don't think its neccesarily that bad a thing for priests to be politicking from the pulpit, it's a good way for an ethical perspective to get some influence on political agendas. Even if they don't have perfectly consistent morality, they are still entitled to express their values in the public sphere, like anyone else. Thats what politics, and democratic politics is about. Ya, people trying to get laws passed to "benefit" them. Democracy.

Good point, and for that matter, who is the preacher really going to be converting anyway? I mean, ya know where the old saying of preaching to the choir comes from, right?

[kahljorn]

People in a religious atmosphere are more likely to adopt opinions they don't understand or believe in it. It's sort of like a, "if you vote for bush you'll go to hell" or, "If you don't vote for bush you'll go to hell" type of thing. Church and state should remain as far seperate as possible for this reason. Political psuedo-apathy is what makes a "Church" different from a "Cult".

[kellychaos]

Lobbying Activity

In general, no organization may qualify for section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying). A 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status.
Legislation includes action by Congress, any state legislature, any local council, or similar governing body, with respect to acts, bills, resolutions, or similar items (such as legislative confirmation of appointive office), or by the public in referendum, ballot initiative, constitutional amendment, or similar procedure. It does not include actions by executive, judicial, or administrative bodies.

An organization will be regarded as attempting to influence legislation if it contacts, or urges the public to contact, members or employees of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation, or if the organization advocates the adoption or rejection of legislation.

Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying. For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status.

Measuring Lobbying Activity: Substantial Part Test

Whether an organization’s attempts to influence legislation constitute a substantial part of its overall activities is determined on the basis of all the pertinent facts and circumstances in each case. The IRS considers a variety of factors, including the time devoted (by both compensated and volunteer workers) and the expenditures devoted by the organization to the activity, when determining whether the lobbying activity is substantial.

Under the substantial part test, an organization that conducts excessive lobbying activity in any taxable year may lose its tax-exempt status, resulting in all of its income being subject to tax. In addition, a religious organization is subject to an excise tax equal to five percent of its lobbying expenditures for the year in which it ceases to qualify for exemption.

Further, a tax equal to five percent of the lobbying expenditures for the year may be imposed against organization managers, jointly and severally, who agree to the making of such expenditures knowing that the expenditures would likely result in the loss of tax-exempt status.

LINKY

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"Organizations may, however, involve themselves in issues of public policy without the activity being considered as lobbying. For example, organizations may conduct educational meetings, prepare and distribute educational materials, or otherwise consider public policy issues in an educational manner without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status."

This is what many, many non-profit organizations do to dance around the "L" word. It would apply to churches, too.

[Sethomas]

I made a thread about the Crusades special, but they didn't talk about the Templar banking system. At any rate, the Templar attribution of "inventing" banking is largely exaggerated, since they didn't do anything the Jews weren't doing already. Jews were the de facto bankers since charging interest on loans was condemned by the Church, but it was popular from the consumer side through the Middle Ages regardless. As I understand the Templars just charged interest on currency exchange, which was legal for Christians. As far as their raking in the cash from protection money, that was legitimate so far as it wasn't abused. I don't know of any abuse that occurred until the time of Baldwin IV, and that was all targeted against the infidel anyways.

[Big Papa Goat]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

People in a religious atmosphere are more likely to adopt opinions they don't understand or believe in it. It's sort of like a, "if you vote for bush you'll go to hell" or, "If you don't vote for bush you'll go to hell" type of thing. Church and state should remain as far seperate as possible for this reason. Political psuedo-apathy is what makes a "Church" different from a "Cult".

People always have a limited understanding of political issues. And are you saying that cults are political and churches aren't? I don't get it. Heavens Gate wasn't really political, and the catholic church is. I can't really think of a politically active group thats really been called a cult actually.

I guess that it's reasonable that if churches should be treated like interest groups in terms of their right to participate in politics, that they should be treated the same as interest groups in terms of taxation.

[kellychaos]

Examine the definition on "education" versus "lobbying", n'est-ce pas? Arrive at something definitive and apply harshly to deserving examples while taking no prisoners. The laws are akready in place. It's just a matter of application/execution. What (votes?) or who are they are they afraid of?

I'm truly tired of a few well-organized, yet small, religious groups speaking for the masses in annoying "form letter wars" to politicians, newspapers/radio managers and their advertising customers, ect in an attempt to speak for us all.

Sadly, I agree with the anti-war/Bush sentiment. I don't; however, agree with the method.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I'm not really sure what the heck you're saying.

People go to church for education, inspiration, direction, and guidance. To you they're a small minority, but that's what the Left has tried to say about the Christian Right in general. The Christian Right didn't all by themselves give the Republicans control of Congress. Voters had a bit of a part in that.

If your point is that people are sheeple because they listen to their priest, well, then end of discussion.

Regardless-- I don't think political discussion on the pulpit is in violation of the law.

[Preechr]

I think we should have government agents sitting in every church service whenever they happen. When I invite assorted neighborhood rednecks over to my front porch for beers on random nights, the subject of religion invariably arises and I have heard it said more than once that the Bible clearly states that whenever two or more people discuss God, that is church, so I'm figuring my plan will require something in the order of 1984 but with kick ass UAV drones and spy satellites.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I thought there were UAV drones in 1984.

[Sethomas]

Probably more like Fahrenheit 451 :/

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Regardless-- I don't think political discussion on the pulpit is in violation of the law.

Originally Posted by some legislators

"An organization will be regarded as attempting to influence legislation if it contacts, or urges the public to contact, members or employees of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation, or if the organization advocates the adoption or rejection of legislation. "

So, hypothetically, if a priest says "it is sinful to vote pro-choice" he's not "advocating the adoption or rejection of legislation"?

I would disagree.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The federal government legislates on everything. Resoutions are passed in order to recognize the signifigance of humming birds in Southern Virginia.

I could say to you "Ziggy, this town's night life fucking sucks," and it could be in conflict with federal legislation.

While necessary, many laws regarding lobbying are silly. My friend has to put a little disclaimer at the end of every e-mail he sneds me, basically stating that he isn't trying to influence legislation or "lobby" me in any way.

[Big Papa Goat]

legal positivism is fuggin dumb anyway
just because some 'legislater' said so, doesn't make it the law
plus, that legislation is only there to define lobbying, which is emphatically not against hte law, and if the government wants to call a politically active chuch a lobbying group and tax them accordingly, (taxing the expenditures used for the purposes of lobbying only, if I read that legislation correctly, and on a basic level, it doesn't cost much for a priest to talk to his congregation, so the taxation on that might not be an issue at all anyway) but just because a church is doing these things and is not being taxed doesn't mean its in violation of the law, it just means the law is failing to be fully applied. Basically, there's nothing saying that it is against the law for a priest to tell people how to vote.

[kellychaos]

Agreed. The law isn't properly enforced ... but why and by whose leave?

[ziggytrix]

I don't really take issue with it, Kevin. But if they're going to take away one Church's tax exempt status for putting politics in their religion, then they need to do it to ALL of them.

Tax em all, or tax none of them. I don't give a damn which, personally.

[Sethomas]

What about Scientology?

[kahljorn]

Religious people act like their political feelings are dictated from the outside, while cultists feel their opinions come from the inside. Inspiration versus mere belief.

[neojester12]

What we have to keep in mind through ALL of this is that Bible wasn't written by god/jesus/holy spirit. It was infact written by man.

White men.

White married men.

Probably racist white married men

Probably homophobic, racist, white, married men.

I do truly belive, that because God is pure love, and because she was persucuted against, she represents who is persucuted today:
a black lesbian. Truly. I think God is a black lesbian.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

[Royal Tenenbaum]

"White men. "

yeah, no, you're retarded. it was in fact written by jews and potentially arabs. the bible was later edited into what it is by white men in the catholic church, but almost none of the bible, if not none of it, was written by "whites." jesus wasn't white either. fuck people are stupid.

[kellychaos]

this thread had such potential :/

[El Blanco]

Originally Posted by Royal Tenenbaum

"White men. "

yeah, no, you're retarded. it was in fact written by jews and potentially arabs. the bible was later edited into what it is by white men in the catholic church, but almost none of the bible, if not none of it, was written by "whites." jesus wasn't white either. fuck people are stupid.

psst. King James wasn't Catholic.