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  #51  
FartinMowler FartinMowler is offline
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Old Nov 30th, 2006, 06:22 PM       
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t is a movement in the sense that some Atheists now want their lack of belief recognized and catered to. I don't know if politicized Atheism is new, but the thought that anything hinting of a religious belief is an offense to their sensibilities is definetly being brought to the forefront.
Like gays or the fact celebrities are racist or drunks? Religion is basing your countries vote of who is worthy to run your country instead of who is capable or intelligent enough. Imagine an intelligent guy that didn't believe in God running for President :/
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  #52  
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Old Nov 30th, 2006, 09:40 PM       
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Religion is basing your countries vote of who is worthy to run your country instead of who is capable or intelligent enough.
Your right. That's exactly all religion is. Thank you for the groundbreaking discovery.
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  #53  
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Old Nov 30th, 2006, 09:46 PM       
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Thank you for the groundbreaking discovery.
You don't understand that anything that is acknowledged is a Gold medal in my books Thank you and fuck you have two meanings.
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  #54  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 09:24 AM       
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Originally Posted by FartinMowler
Like gays or the fact celebrities are racist or drunks? Religion is basing your countries vote of who is worthy to run your country instead of who is capable or intelligent enough. Imagine an intelligent guy that didn't believe in God running for President :/
Um, most of the state laws restricting the rights of homosexuals have been people driven initiatives. What has the president done?

There's a reason people like Pat Robertson could never be the president of this country. People like someone with faith because it supposedly speaks about their character, or it shows that they have a foundation in their values, which might give a glimpse into how they will govern.

It applies to Southern conservatives when they protest abortion, but it also applies to Catholic governors when they oppose the death penalty.

How would having an intelligent atheist as president of a country with a large Christian population be better in your atheistic, secular-humanist, Canadian socialist perspective...?
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 10:17 AM       
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Isn't it about time?? We've had to bow to the christians for the last 2000 years. It's OUR turn.
Not necessarily true. While Christians have held quite a bit of power before, they've also faced severe persecution before. Granted, Christians are hardly the most persecuted people in the world, but it's not like we've had supreme power/control over the governments of the world before, let alone here.

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You don't understand that anything that is acknowledged is a Gold medal in my books
Huh? Out of curiousity, could you clarify what you just said, because I have no idea as to what the fuck you're talking about.

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Thank you and fuck you have two meanings.
Really? I did not know that. Thank you so much for clearing that up.

I will say this, however; while a Christian, I wouldn't mind having an avowed and open atheist as President as long as he proved to be capable and intelligent. While I wouldn't exactly approve if he made all his decisions based on his own personal religious belief, neither do I approve of those Christians who make all their decisions based around their religious beliefs.

I'm a strict supporter of separation of Church and State, and as long as you do a good job in office, I don't care what you are, as long as you don't sacrifice babies to Cthulhu or some shit.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 11:19 AM       
Bob, old buddy old pal...you're full of shit. More people have been slaughtered in THE NAME OF GOD than in any 3 wars you can name put together. Christianity is DRENCHED in blood and power. Nowadays they dont' murder for god, they just try to control everything for god. Bastards.
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  #57  
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 11:26 AM       
Yeah, but atheists in the 20th Century killed more people than Christians did in the previous 19 centuries combined. That's even if you throw in the Crusades, which in reality had virtually nothing to do with religion. Do you really want to speculate on who would have a better track record had atheism dominated the common era?
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 11:26 AM       
Really? Do you have some comparative numbers? I'm curious.

How many people died in the Crusades, and then how many died in Cambodia under Pol Pot? How about Mao or Stalin? Did they murder for Christianity?

People will always find a reason to kill each other. Don't blame that on Jesus.

EDIT: I was responding to Wart.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 11:39 AM       
You're both assuming that these "non-religious" killings are because of atheism, which is totally wrong. You're lumping other murders committed for political agendas with people killing because they DON'T believe in god. You're just muddying the waters now.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 11:42 AM       
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How many people died in the Crusades, and then how many died in Cambodia under Pol Pot? How about Mao or Stalin? Did they murder for Christianity?
No, they murdered for political reasons, which had nothing to do with christianity, and can't be counted.

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People will always find a reason to kill each other. Don't blame that on Jesus.
I'm not. I'm blaming it on people who kill in THE NAME of god.
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  #61  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 11:45 AM       
No dipshit, what I'm saying (I wouldn't dare venture to speak for Seth on these matters) is that mankind has killed itself over and over for a lot of reasons. The 30 Year War is a fine example of religion being used as a political excuse, not as a catalyst for war and death.

And while we're at it, my examples weren't about atheism? What were the Khmer Rouge killing for? What do the teachings of Communism say about religion?
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:11 PM       
If you want to compare apples to apples, it's been exceptionally rare that any sizable group has been executed simply for having certain beliefs. However, religion is a convenient label in history to see where people set their alliances. You can't really rationalize the cooperation seen between select groups of Christian and Muslim mercenaries in the Crusades if each group mutually saw the other as subhuman and worthy of annihilation, as revisionists like to paint. However, it was very convenient to say "hey, this whole shebang was started by the Muslims, so let's go for Christian unity in a war about control over land mass."

If you want to talk about the Inquisition, especially the Spanish one, you had better have a great deal of research behind you because it's quite a complex issue. At any rate, the Church lacked the authority to condemn people to death, so the few tens of thousands that died in it did so at the hands of the state.

The same goes for the other side. For example, a family friend of mine is pure-bred Vietnamese, but his great-grandfather was executed for being Catholic. Were those responsible all that concerned about his religious beliefs? No, but to be Catholic implied a political bond or at least sympathy with the French, and that's why he lost his head.

And going back to apples to apples, there is nothing fundamentally antitheist about far-left political ideology. However, Marx and his followers made the brash assumption that religious affiliation would espouse a conflict of interest in a worker's uprising, and hence historical attempts at communism followed suit and executed indiscriminately for any allegiance other than to the state. So, it's absolutely idiotic to say "Christians killed because they're Christian, but atheists killed because, umm... they felt like it."
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:33 PM       
Show me where I said "Christians killed because they're Christian, but atheists killed because, umm... they felt like it."
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:35 PM       
"No, they murdered for political reasons, which had nothing to do with christianity, and can't be counted."
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:37 PM       
And that's not the same thing AT ALL.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 12:43 PM       
Why did Pol Pot kill so many people? Mad men like him were in fact driven by atheism. Religion is the opium, blah blah, right?

Let's go back to an earlier comment:

"You're both assuming that these "non-religious" killings are because of atheism, which is totally wrong. You're lumping other murders committed for political agendas with people killing because they DON'T believe in god. You're just muddying the waters now."

Why then was religion banned in Cambodia?
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  #67  
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 01:32 PM       
People who kill "in the name of God" are killing for themselves. I mean, it's not exactly like these wars were fought trying to sacrafice their own first born son or something. Atheists also kill for themselves. As far as I can tell the entire atheist idealogy is doing things for yourself rather than "in the name of God", in the name of country or whatever. Yet most people who do things "In the name of God" are doing them "For themselves". So really what we're talking about is humanities inherent selfishness. I think people pretty much have the same motivations no matter what religous/cultural background they come from.

also it's probable that although the church may not have been able to directly condemn anyone to death I don't think it changes the fact that they riled people up enough to be capable of condemning others to death. I mean, religous followers feel guilty about killing sometimes, religion is a pretty good excuse to kill. so is the interests of national security, patriotism, democracy and the american dream!

I see no difference in fighting for a religous institution or a political institution as far as "justice" "goodness" or "Rightness" go, because what is good, right and just is often decided by the religous and political institution. (same with any social institution)
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 04:12 PM       
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Bob, old buddy old pal...you're full of shit. More people have been slaughtered in THE NAME OF GOD than in any 3 wars you can name put together. Christianity is DRENCHED in blood and power. Nowadays they dont' murder for god, they just try to control everything for god. Bastards.
I don't recall ever having denied this. Of course Christianity was drenched in blood and power, and this occured when the Christian church attempted to become more of a political body than a religious body, because the oldest form of establishing a powerful political body was through war and violence.

However, I find it ironic that you didn't even bother to address what I actually said, that being about the persecution of Christians in response to your idea that Christians have always ruled. Are you meaning to say, sir, that Christians have not been heavily persecuted throughout history? I'm certain that history proves you wrong. Now, before you bitch and say that I'm just trying to use this as an excuse for what the Church did, I'm not. What the Church had done in an attempt to elevate itself in power in the political arena, while using the excuse that they were agents of God, was an atrocity. But several other groups have committed equal atrocities, as well as other religious groups having said they killed in the name of God other than Christianity. Don't make it seem as if Christians pioneered killing in the name of a deity; it was done far before they came into power.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 06:49 PM       
I think united athiest alliance is a better name, science damn those Otters,
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 07:14 PM       
I knew it'd be only a matter of time before some retard brought up South Park.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 07:17 PM       
Atheists have been responsible for all the wars, therefore they should be eradicated.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 07:23 PM       
Honestly, guys like Falwell or crazy Islamists add more fuel to the atheist movement than Dawkins or Dennett ever will.
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 08:43 PM       
Okay, but one of the fundamental tenants of "new" atheism is that there's no such thing as moderate theism. That's the irritating part.
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  #74  
Emu Emu is offline
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 10:04 PM       
Moderate theism in terms of what? Like an agnostic theist or a non-fundamentalist?
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  #75  
FartinMowler FartinMowler is offline
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Old Dec 1st, 2006, 10:09 PM       
I get a sense of legs being pulled of instead of answers being sought.
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