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  #26  
Zero Signal Zero Signal is offline
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 03:43 PM       
Yet, you listen to someone (Ambrose Bierce) who also "speaks without knowledge". Someone telling you what not to believe is no different that someone telling what you should believe. Think about that; you are exactly like those that you speak against. And then you want to talk about logic. Yay for you!

Athiests discussing religion is like fucking for virginity.
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  #27  
OperationScuzBucket OperationScuzBucket is offline
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 03:47 PM       
Amazing how you just assumed that I'm an athiest...personally I believe that nobody can ever truly prove what happens when you die, because we're not dead and there's no conclusive evidence in either direction.
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OperationScuzBucket OperationScuzBucket is offline
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 03:49 PM       
oh and the comparison in that quote makes no sense how you changed it

(the original was "Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity" for those of you who've never seen that one)
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 03:55 PM       
Nah, I like it better with "fucking".
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  #30  
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 04:04 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by OperationScuzBucket
oh and the comparison in that quote makes no sense how you changed it

(the original was "Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity" for those of you who've never seen that one)
It makes no sense to you because you don't even understand the original quote.
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  #31  
Krythor Krythor is offline
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 04:07 PM       
I'm slightly more convinced in a scientific explanation for everything rather than the religious one, but I do have a big fucking problem with people who are 100% certain (Or anywhere between 100 and 95) that the bible is nothing but bullshit. Believe it or not, NO ONE has the definitive answer to the creation of the universe, as much as your physics classes would have you believe that they do.

I know I'm pointing out the fucking obvious, but it's one of those tiny things that really irritates me.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 04:09 PM       
I'm a believer, but objectively speaking your bastardization of that phrase was indeed more than a little flawed.

There is no diametric contradiction in an atheist speaking about religion because atheism is in itself a religious standpoint. The only thing comparably functional would be perhaps "praying for atheism is like fucking for virginity", but that's just stupid.
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  #33  
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 04:10 PM       
Everything is better with a little "fucking."
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  #34  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 04:34 PM       
If God put out I would be more inclined to love him. As a great man once said, "Everything is better with a little fucking".
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 05:05 PM       
Practically everyone believes at least something. I believe science, when given enough data, can explain everything there is to the universe. But science is oftentimes based on theory. It may be logical and it may be plausible, but it's not always possible to prove. And my belief in science isn't waterproof, cause I'm sometimes open to different explanations of certain occurences, but it gets me through the day. I think atheists highly underestimate just how much unconditional faith they put in science.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 05:20 PM       
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It may be logical and it may be plausible, but it's not always possible to prove.
That's why scientists are always performing research and gathering data and forming new theories and disproving others. Nothing is definite in science except for the absolute fundamental laws, and it takes a helluva lot of evidence in science before something is considered a law.

The thing that I think makes science so great is the principle of falsifiability: the fact that any theory can be DISPROVEN should someone come along with a better idea or new evidence.

Religion is tautological and can't be disproven, especially for believers. Everything you can think of is already explained by tiny little statements like, "God did it."

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As a great man once said, "Everything is better with a little fucking".
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 05:27 PM       
Imagine God as an artist; only instead of paint, he uses atoms and molecules.

Science and Religion aren't mutually exclusive. God can still "do it" and have it be explained by science, especially if you believe him to simply be the grandaddy of all creatures.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 06:02 PM       
Bubba, you have totally convinced me. As we speak I am printing out copies of your thesis and wrapping them around rocks which I will gleefully fire into Afghanistan with a potato launcher in the hopes of calming their religous fanaticism. Your words should be parrotted to the ends of the earth and will no doubt bring about a new age of atheistic tranquility.

Humanity owes you a great debt.
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  #39  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 07:15 PM       
Quantam physics supports God and Satans existence. I swear.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 08:35 PM       
Has anyone noticed that not a single person has bothered to make any comment on ANYTHING I ACTUALLY SAID in my first post?

Anyone?

Anyone?

I never commented on anything specific to any religion (Those who continually mention the Bible in particular should pay heed to this). I never said I "had it all figured out" in any sense (Actually I did say just the opposite in one sense).

Please, for the love of christ, stop spewing out redundant babble you give to anyone who is without religion. If you're going to argue with me, actually read my damn post and then respond to the post rather than me.

Ror: You did, of course, note my comment on most certainly not being the first to think about this? Or did you just conveniently bypass it? Either way your sarcasm was funny, though horribly misplaced and rather stupid considering the context of my previous statements. Do you ever actually argue your position?



Here is a summary of my post:

We are either capable of understanding god or we are not.
Agreed?

If we can't understand god then it is beyond out understanding, and therefore in reality we know nothing of it, and stating otherwise would merely taking a guess from an infinitely large and all inclusive pool of guesses.
Agreed?

If we can understand god then we can prove or disprove its existence. It remains to be proven.
Agreed?

Ok, now start over again only paying attention to those three statements.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 08:57 PM       
"Do you ever actually argue your position?"

I didn't realize I had taken a position in this discussion. Everyone who cares to knows where I stand in regards to faith, and I argued against better theories than yours long before you ever graced this board with your philosophical pretensions, so for me this is a very old argument and one which I do not need to take any part in.

I'm just going to heckle from the tiger cage.
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  #42  
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 09:03 PM       
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We are either capable of understanding god or we are not.
Depends upon two things. The "we" and the "understanding". If by "we" you meen collective society, then I'm not sure. Taking specific individuals or religions into account, there seems to be a level of understanding, but it's only in relation to that particular religious sect. For example, as Christians, we know that God generally doesn't like sinning. That could be interpreted into a basic level of understanding. But, many within Christian denominations may just blindly follow this without question, while others may believe they have God "all figured out". The "we" is a poor term to use here.

Your concept of "understanding" is also vague? There are many levels of understanding, and everybody "understands" differently. Taking love for example: Many people may view love as something that "clicks"- as in an instant chemistry is present that is often unexplainable. Others view it as a simple chemical synapsis in the brain. Chemical reactions taking place withing the recesses of the brain used to trigger the emotions of affection. Others think love is when you're shot in the ass by an arrow. It's all relative to the individual. In explaining God, special circumstances are especially relevant. If you must, as an atheist (or whatever you are) willingly suspend your disbelief for a second, and say that there is a God, then you would generally agree that God isn't bound by laws of science. Science is one of the few resources we have in determining "existance" or "authenticity". If God cannot be disproven by science, then there is most definitely a severe lack of understanding, as far as the scientific world is concerned. But, like in the Christian community, there are people on both sides. Many believe that God can be proven through science, while others believe His existance can be disproven, either through science or simple logic.


Quote:
If we can't understand god then it is beyond out understanding, and therefore in reality we know nothing of it, and stating otherwise would merely taking a guess from an infinitely large and all inclusive pool of guesses.
No. Your concept of "understand" is vague. You'll have to clarify, because in the religious sense, we most definitely do understand God. We understand that (again taking Christian/Catholic references here) he created the universe, sent His only Son to die for the sins of the world, that he hates sins, that there are things that please him (loving your neighbor, modesty, etc.- see Bible for furthur details). Well, from the atheist point of view who rejects these doctrines, then these may not qualify as understanding. For the religious zealot, they most definitely do qualify as understanding. For the religious person, there is no guesswork, in terms of the most basic questions of who He is, what He wants, what pisses Him off, and so forth. In explaining exactly why he does what he does is where the basis of faith comes in. Religious people may essentially say that they place the "why" in the hands of God himself. That an essence greater, smarter, and more powerful than themselves is watching over their lives and making decisions as to what happens- when, why, and how- is where the whole doctrine of faith comes into play. Atheists may want to continue questioning, but, unfortunately or not, many religious people prefer to leave it at that, which is why you may have had trouble finding answers.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 09:03 PM       
We: All creatures capable of thought.

Understand: To know the truth concerning the subject at hand.

As a human, each of us is able to either know in truth the nature of god, or not.

You are interpreting my meaning as understanding the proposed nature of god, not the actual nature of god. Don't go so far as to bring in any particular religion into this (even if it is as an example). Start of with the first three concepts and go from there please.

Ror: This isn't really a theory. Under my statements the Bible or any other particular religion could be correct in its assumptions. Its painfully evident you're missing something by your statements.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 09:15 PM       
Quote:
Understand: To know the truth concerning the subject at hand.
But this is a flawed question. Millions of people around the world all know the truth, yet they all have varying opinions as to exactly what it is. The subject being God, I don't think anybody can answer what the truth is, because I don't know what kind of truth you're looking for. For religious people, all "understanding" God entails is putting absolute faith in Him. C'est la vie, so to speak. As for you, are you looking for proof? Why God does what he does?
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 09:28 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by O71394658
Millions of people around the world all know the truth, yet they all have varying opinions as to exactly what it is
What? I think we have some conflicting opinions of what either "know" or "truth" means.

I'm refering to knowing the nature of god, which would include what god is and what anything invloving the nature of his existence would entail. I honestly don't know how to explain it any further to you.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 09:39 PM       
The nature of God depends upon whatever religion you follow. As a Catholic, I believe that God is a Being in the like image of man, who is omniscient and omnipotent. I see that as the "truth" and that's what I firmly believe. Others may see God as something else. The nature of God is relative to each individual, each person sees God in their own light.

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anything invloving the nature of his existence would entail
He rules over the Universe. ...I'm too lazy to explain it in any other way.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 10:08 PM       
The true nature of god would not depend on what someone thought the true nature was. I'm arguing about the very existence of god. Not our ability to grasp the proposed natures of god. You are most definitely not interpreting what I'm saying correctly.

Actual religion should hardly even enter into this conversation anyway.

I see know how my use of the word "understand" could be misinterpreted. I guess the best way I can convey what I'm trying to say is that by "able to understand" I mean that one's mind would be capable of knowing the truth concerning the nature of god.

As sentient humans we either are, or aren't capable of knowing the actual nature of god.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 10:22 PM       
I prefer to think that if he indeed exists, God is just the collective consciousness of everything (all sentient creatures in existence), lying in the center of the universe, and that he is completely unrelated to the "God" we know of on earth. Just 'cause it would be pretty cool to share a god with multi-tentacled space-fiends.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 10:31 PM       
Whether or not there is a god has no relevance.

I believe that there is a superior being(s), and it manifested itself in different ways to different people. Just me, though.

My suggestion: believe in the ideal before the idol.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 11:06 PM       
I already gave you the actual existance of God, from my perspective.

But all I'm saying is, you'll receive different answers from different people. (See posts by Ninja and The One...)
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