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theapportioner theapportioner is offline
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 07:38 PM        Philosophy etc. Book Club
I've had the little idea of starting such a club for a while now, but never could muster the enthusiasm to gather the people. Anyway, I know more people online who would be interested in this, than people currently living near me, so this seems like the way to go. Maybe we could do it once a month - pick a book by consensus, and open a thread on it on a predetermined date. Anyone interested?

Anyway, here's some ideas for stuff to read. If anything piques your interest, lemme know. Also, suggest your own stuff.

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions - Thomas Kuhn
Beyond Good and Evil - Friedrich Nietszche
Our Posthuman Future - Francis Fukuyama
How to Do Things with Words - JL Austin
Simulacra and Simulation - Jean Baudrillard
The Blank Slate - Steven Pinker
Consilience - EO Wilson
Three Dialogues - George Berkeley
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 07:41 PM       
Take a break from the postmodernism, existentialism, and subjective idealism. It might do you some good.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 07:43 PM       
Why don't YOU take a break from the fucking libertarianism and economics?
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 07:46 PM       
Um, hello? I wouldn't exactly lump Pinker, Wilson, Austin etc. in these categories.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 07:55 PM       
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Take a break from the postmodernism, existentialism, and subjective idealism. It might do you some good.
You shouldn't be so quick to criticize existentialism--not every existentialist was a French socialist. Nietzsche's theories, as a matter of fact, influenced Ayn Rand and are pretty close to your own.

I'd reccommend:

Twilight of the Idols - Friedrich Nietzsche
The Myth of Sisphyus and Other Essays - Albert Camus
The Rebel - Albert Camus
Being and Nothingness - Jean-Paul Sartre
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 08:01 PM       
I disagree heavily with Rand on many areas, and I do accept some postmodern beliefs. I just I have a very huge disliking of the term simulacra.

Besides, I have to fill the role of the pompous ass here, right?
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 08:20 PM       
I like Camus a lot. Have you read The Stranger? Great book.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 08:23 PM       
Speaking of Camus, I'll suggest Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 08:25 PM       
I personally have major issues with Baudrillard. That said, he has his insightful moments. Many of the others (Fukuyama, Berkeley, Wilson notably) I have problems with too. I thought the works suggested might interest others, and be interesting to talk about.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 08:36 PM       
I've read pretty much everything of Camus'. He's one of my all-time favorites.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 08:48 PM       
I dislike Camus. Not that it would suprise any of you, considering that I'm anti-existentialist and anti-leftist.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 08:49 PM       
can you tell us again what you are, stand for, and are a product of?
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 09:05 PM       
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I dislike Camus. Not that it would suprise any of you, considering that I'm anti-existentialist and anti-leftist.
Yes, yes, because he had socialist tendencies (a concern for human rights, imagine that!), we have to scrap his philosophy altogether, even though the majority of his works were on subjects that had nothing to do with politics.

I find it so bizarre that libertarians are almost universally opposed to liberals for economic issues, when conservatives in the modern era have been so gung-ho about attempting to control a culture's "morality" and influence private lifestyles.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 09:11 PM       
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You shouldn't be so quick to criticize existentialism--not every existentialist was a French socialist. Nietzsche's theories, as a matter of fact, influenced Ayn Rand and are pretty close to your own.
Yeah, and there is Xian existentialism. I've always enjoyed Kierkegaard.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:02 PM       
I scrap his philosophy because he is existentialist. I find no reason to assume that I exist, and therefore, that I should be the starting point for a philosophy.

And I love abstractions to much to be one.

Unlike existentialists, I don't believe that morality is subjective - I believe it is nonexistant. I also find "existence preceeds essense" to be without basis, and thus I strongly believe in human nature.

Of course, I do embrace individuality, but I find existentialists to be very harsh towards individualism in its political sense.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:05 PM       
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I scrap his philosophy because he is existentialist. I find no reason to assume that I exist, and therefore, that I should be the starting point for a philosophy.

And I love abstractions to much to be one.

Unlike existentialists, I don't believe that morality is subjective - I believe it is nonexistant.

Of course, I do embrace individuality, but I find existentialists to be very harsh towards individualism in its political sense.
Everything you just said above flies in the face of your previous posts. You're just a smug, contrarian prick.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:10 PM       
How so, Artificial?
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:14 PM       
You find "no reason" to believe that you exist, despite holding the libertarian/objectivist view that you are an end in and of yourself.

You claim that morality doesn't exist, even as a concept.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU BELIEVE, ANYWAY? What do you believe besides that you enjoy pissing people off on the I-Mockery message boards and displaying your own cerebral narcissism?
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:38 PM       
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You find "no reason" to believe that you exist, despite holding the libertarian/objectivist view that you are an end in and of yourself.
Perhaps I should clarify. I do find reason to believe that I exist. I don't think that I know I exist. There is a far cry between a belief and knowledge.

You should recognize that there is a huge difference between practical assumptions from which we must operate and true, absolute knowledge.

It should be recognize what is implied by the belief that man is an end in himself. It simply denies that he is a means to anything else - which I do not believe would be contradicted even if a God presides in the supernatural.

I do believe morality exists as a concept. But I think that it is a paradoxical concept, and therefore cannot logically exist. Just because one claims there is right and wrong does not mean that there is right and wrong. Of course, the concept of morality is not very well defined anyway, but I digress...

Put simply, I am like Hume, only radically rationalist rather than empiricist. In addition, I am willing to accept certain things without actually knowing if they are true for the purpose of practicality - because if I don't, the very concept of logic becomes quite... asinine, no?

That would be the basics. To get more specific, I believe that there are no basic truths which are accepted without any reason. Rather, every "axiom" is the result of an overwhelmingly probable inductive argument that occurs within the subconscious mind. For example, consider the assumption that only existing things affect other existing things. Why do we assume this? Well, have you ever seen a nonexisting thing affect an existing thing? Obviously not.

That is not to say that I believe knowledge itself is impossible, because arguments can be made from reason alone just by the very definitions of words. For example, one can say with certainty that reason is reasonable. Why? Because it must be, since it is nothing more than an abstraction created in such a manner that it does not change. There is no reification here. It is but a product of the mind, in its attempts to comprehend.

By now you may have noticed two things: 1) That I believe logic can be applied on the subconscious level, and 2) That for a rationalist, I sure do rely on experience. The first thing is true, but that opens up a huge can of worms that I do not wish to get into right now. The second, however, deals with my assertion of experience as an ongoing set of inductive arguments - for, clearly, the inductive argument is the only argument that can be made towards the material world, and therefore cannot possibly allow for certain, absolute knowledge.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:42 PM       
Fine. Super. Good for you. You are a very smart young man. We prostrate ourselves before your knowledge.

So before this thread gets even more off-topic, why don't you tell the nice people what your book suggestions are?
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:46 PM       
Book suggestions? Sorry, I just read articles that explain the stances of the various positions and the reasons for them and look for various criticisms to be sure that they haven't already been raised.

I guess the book I would suggest is titled, if I recall, An Introduction to Philosophy. I don't recall the author, though.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:49 PM       
He can't post a list of books, because he's too busy finding more big words to dislike. He's a big ball of dislike. Like Diogenes after a bender, except someone filled his toga with itching powder.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:51 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Book suggestions? Sorry, I just read articles that explain the stances of the various positions and the reasons for them and look for various criticisms to be sure that they haven't already been raised.

I guess the book I would suggest is titled, if I recall, An Introduction to Philosophy. I don't recall the author, though.
I KNEW IT! I FUCKING KNEW IT! You just try to get a working knowledge of theories so you can either:

A) Show everyone how smart you are.

or

B) Poke holes in them to piss people off.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 10:55 PM       
I just find reading a lot of books on philosophy to be exhausting, you know? After the points have been outlined, and sufficient reasonings behind them, it becomes trivial (kinda like philosophy itself).

Anyway, I can do other things with the time I saved. Some things I might give a whole book because it requires it to actually understand the stance, not the least of which because there are so many of them. Philosophy just does not lend itself in that manner to me.
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Old Jan 10th, 2004, 11:00 PM       
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I KNEW IT! I FUCKING KNEW IT! You just try to get a working knowledge of theories so you can either:

A) Show everyone how smart you are.

or

B) Poke holes in them to piss people off.
A working knowledge? I must ask what could possibly make you presume that one needs to read entire volumes on intelligent discourse in order to understand it?

Believe me - if you have some enlightening comments with which you can bash my stances or defend yourself by reading these books, go ahead. I imagine that you do not.

Your conclusions are incorrect. I gather such knowledge for my own enjoyment, and do not read overly exstensive works on the subject because the time spent doing that could be more productively spent looking at other theories.

Satisified, or must I somehow redeem myself for my blasphemies?
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