Koran & Murder Case

[Pharaoh]

I see now. It's funny to you because you think it's risqué and a little outrageous to use gay as an insult.
You see it's difficult for me to fully understand the politically correct sense of humour.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Your hyper-sensitivity to anything that seems "PC" is boring and cliche.

[Chojin]

I think it's just adorable that you think it's way worse to use gay as a generic insult than to legitimately hate homosexuals.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Chojin

I think it's just adorable that you think it's way worse to use gay as a generic insult than to legitimately hate homosexuals.

Legitimately hate homosexuals?
What do you mean by that? Lawfully, reasonably? That doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway I don't think it's worse than anything, I'm just interested in it. It's not used in that way over here.

[Chojin]

• le·git·i·mate
  adj.
  
  1. Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business.
  2. Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards: legitimate advertising practices.
  3. Based on logical reasoning; reasonable: a legitimate solution to the problem.
  4. Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint.

Are you really such a dundering fuck that you can't be bothered to make the cursory attempt to visit dictionary.com before commenting?

[glowbelly]

psst, i think he meant it along the lines of genuinely.

see i was right!!

[Pharaoh]

That's an incorrect use of the word. Legitimate is from the Latin legitimus, meaning lawful.
Definition 4. 'Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint', is using authentic and genuine in the sense of rightful.
To legitimately hate someone would mean you hate them for a good reason. It doesn't mean you genuinely hate them.

[Chojin]

Who are you believe to the going, the American slang speaker of, or the outstandingly gay ****** that you am?

In other words, no.

[Pub Lover]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh

...[the word gay is] not used in that way over here.

Yes, it is. :/

[ziggytrix]

You'd have to be some kind of retard to think its politically correct to use "gay" as slang for "stupid or unlikeable."

[Pharaoh]

Yes, OK, I admit I was wrong. How silly of me! I mean if you say outrageous stuff like 'gay n*gger' that really proves you're not all politically correct lefties, you can't possibly be.

[Abcdxxxx]

I understand that Shari'a is meant to be nothing more then laws to live by. No different then commandments.... but clearly, outsiders aren't speaking of the daily rules for prayer, or kosher laws when they discuss Shari'a. The problem is these Shari'as are not only powered by these corrupt Governments, but the Muslim clerics in the region. To claim there is a seperation between the Mosque and State dissmisses reality. You're saying these Shari'as are a politicized con with no basis in the Koran, but that's absolutely not what the leading clerics in these nations are telling your people. It makes religious leaders appear to incite these crimes. If the Koran is filled with ambigious prose, it becomes you word against theres...and sadly THEY are the ones putting taking action, not Muslims like you. I suggest you debate the verses with every suicide bomber who qoutes the Koran extensively, and holds a copy in his/her hands, as they prepare to mass murder "infidels". It would serve us all better then telling US all this. Our understanding is less of a threat to you then THEIR understanding. All I see from the Islamic community is PR work on these issues, fighting the public opinion from outsiders... and that is not a solution to the crisis within modern Islam, you admit to.

Regarding Jews, and Muslim tolerance of Jews - a story about a vindictive Jewish female, who later converts to Islam might show mercy in your Islamic eyes, but as a Jew, it says the complete opposite. Frankly, it's offensive on several levels. That's no pro-Judaism, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't want your mercy, I want to be left alone. What other kind of death could be involved in having your soul cut off from your people ? It's also concerning that Mohhamed is your moral compass when his own actions were morally questionable.

I'm also a bit troubled by your choices of other examples of Islamic harmony:
Christians in Yemen? Yet the persecution of Yemenite Jews was some of the worst.
Jordan? Cleansed the majority of it's Jews. There was no Jewish community in Transjordan when it became a State in 1946. Even today, under peace treaty, Orthodox Jews can not enter Jordan.
Lebanon ? The civil war lasted decades, and religion played a major roll in it. Lebanon remains under Muslim occupation.

Look, the region was under Ottoman administrative control for centuries. Whether there was tolerance towards Jews since the advent of Islam's domination of the region all depended on the period of time and local rulers. There were periods of forced conversion, ethnic cleansing and heavy discrimination in addition to periods of relative tolerance. Since the Arabs gained independence, Jews are not the only ones to suffer discrimination and dispossession. Saddam Hussein's war against the Kurds was one of ethnic cleansing. The Copts have been persecuted in Egypt, the Persians persecuted the Bahais...etc... these are the well known examples. Not even being a Muslim will save you in the Sudan if you're African

You just picked very poor examples. I'm sorry, but you can brag that there are 6 churches, or 1 Synagogue left from Persian Iran... but that's not tolerance. That's not proof of healthy thriving brotherhood, or acceptance. Why would you pretend it is, when you know better? You have some really solid information to offer us, why cheapen your integrity this way?

Translations : We're in agreement that the Koran should be read in Arabic. We have both made this point clearly, I think. We both agree that the Koran is being taught differently, (or inaccurately) from your understanding of it, in the majoriy of the Arab world.

When it comes to attempting to provide a translation for the Non-Muslim public, you should not assume that a Jew or Christian who has a scholarly understanding of Arabic, and Islam couldn't provide the same accuracy. Your fear of bias against Islam, is about as healthy as our fear of Islams bias when sanitizing the Koran...or bias in assuming a Jew can't be... honest! I think it's wrong to say the only accurate translation can come from someone who worships allah..though I'd agree they havethe advantage. The Koran doesn't tell you to hate us, but it tells you that we are wrong, that we are not proper. It's no different then a Christian "praying for your soul". That's not tolerance, love or acceptance. Now I don't mind someone praying for me...that's sweet....what I do mind, is active outreach.

Homosexuality: Again, Indepedence is not acceptance or protection. You say God won't punish you in this life, but isn't Islam all about preparing for the next life? You're double talking. What are the ultimate consequences for a Queer Muslim?

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh

Yes, OK, I admit I was wrong. How silly of me! I mean if you say outrageous stuff like 'gay n*gger' that really proves you're not all politically correct lefties, you can't possibly be.

Well, it wouldn't be logically consistent. Though it does not rule out the possibility "we're all politically incorrect leftists" or that "some of us are politically correct leftists". However, I would not expect anyone as muleheaded or ignorant as you to unsarcastically admit the difference once you've made up your mind, you useless right wing pigeon.

[ScruU2wice]

Yeah pharaoh don't give us that shit and tell us, it's just not being PC; it's racism and you're a racist. I couldn't care less about your "leftist" and "rightwing" vocabulary that you use to label everything. You're a racist. and I'm sure there's meetings that can help you cope with stuff like that but that's not my problem.

[ziggytrix]

I remember the good ole days when I got called a "racist de facto bigot" instead of a "hyper PC Leftist"

That's exactly what you're doing, as if any of these kids know what Moonshine is. The root is natural human tendency to stereotype and attack people who are different, plain and simple. That type of ignorance is embraced here, and you'd have to be quite foolish to say otherwise. Even among a better crowd, it would still exist but people who so blatantly celebrate it certainly accept it. And it's that same weak minded ignorance that leads to things like Nazism, the Clan, the rape camps at Bosnia, the genocides in Africa, slavery, 9/11, etc. Sure, none of you are nearly important or powerful enough or in the right situation to cause any of that BUT, under the right circumstances you WOULD be shouting "Zieg Heil" because you are weak and ignorant. The nazi's weren't all evil bastards, they were normal people just like you. Normal, ignorant sheep who are easily led to hate, just like all of you would be. And I think it's pathetic. You think you're better, but it's very obvious you aren't. Even you Ziggy won't even speak out against use of words you find offensive on a message board, cause god forbid you speak against the Kapn bashing for just one second. Woe to any person of color who you weren't friends with who would need you in real life in a similar situation. Like I said, you'd probably sit idly by, afraid to go against the group. Pathetic, I don't see how you even sleep at night.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by Kulturkampf

Of course not. I am not a Muslim. I have better things than to read a book that encourages the murder of Jews.

So you insist that the religion is evil and anti-Semetic based on the Koran and you don't even bother PRESENTING THE VERSES TO PROVE YOUR ARGUEMENT and you expect us to be convinced that Islam is inherently anti-Semetic?

Apparently someone told you the Koran was anti-Semetic, and you took it as gospel without bothering to so much as read an encyclopedia entry about it. Can't you think for yourself?

[Abcdxxxx]

Jeanette, how are you any your opinions any better or any more informed?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

a story about a vindictive Jewish female, who later converts to Islam might show mercy in your Islamic eyes, but as a Jew, it says the complete opposite. Frankly, it's offensive on several levels. That's no pro-Judaism, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't want your mercy, I want to be left alone. What other kind of death could be involved in having your soul cut off from your people ? It's also concerning that Mohhamed is your moral compass when his own actions were morally questionable.

That was a long story summed up. I still consider it a strong example. Hind was accepted and respected despite the fact that she was a Jew. I said that EVEN IF she was that vindictive, she was forgiven, so what the fuck does that say about how forgiving and accepting prophet Mohammed is?

I'm also a bit troubled by your choices of other examples of Islamic harmony:
Christians in Yemen? Yet the persecution of Yemenite Jews was some of the worst.
Jordan? Cleansed the majority of it's Jews. There was no Jewish community in Transjordan when it became a State in 1946. Even today, under peace treaty, Orthodox Jews can not enter Jordan.
Lebanon ?

Okay wow, you're kind of really far back in history.

Again, Indepedence is not acceptance or protection. You say God won't punish you in this life, but isn't Islam all about preparing for the next life? You're double talking.

Did I say it is?

Indenpence, acceptance, tolerance and protection are all different things yet are related. It's your personal choice if you want to tolerate others and accept them as they are. You choose, as an independent individual, whether you want to be hateful and intolerant or accepting and tolerant. YOU choose, no one else does it for you. The Koran wants that. For you to make your own choices regarding what was right and wrong. It tells you what's right and what's wrong, but YOU need to give yourself the limits.

You answered your own question in that second line. God won't punish you in this life BECAUSE he is preparing you for the next life. The next life is where you will be punished, then. This life is all about chance, faith, forgiveness, knowledge. This life is where you build yourself for the next life. This is how God will determine where you go next, through your actions here.

You independently chose to be a homosexual. Fine. It's againt the Koran, but like I said, it's not 'A' and 'B' with Islam. There are certain exceptions.

I'm not double talking, you're just hearing things the way you want to hear them. I'm sorry, but you don't seem as educated as you should be on this matter, I can suggest a few books for you to read because I don't even know where to start to be honest. We can talk about this for days on end.

Christianity and Judaism had a great influential presence in the Arabian peninsula, man. Arab tribes were around Christians all the time: Abyssinians Mesopotamian Christians, Syrians.

To say "they were all kicked out/mistreated!" is just too simplistic and stupid. LOOK FURTHER BACK.

Don't Wikipedia these and expect yourself to know enough. Don't depend on the internet for these things, I want you to get out there and actually look these up before engaging in such a debate.

In the 6th century C.E Yemen was the seat of Christian aspirations. The city of Najran was considered the hub of Arab Christianity. Ever heard about the massive church in Sana'? It was a primary pilgrimage site in the region, like Mecca. Ever heard about the Ghossanids and the Byzantines and their preaching of two very differnet Christianities? Ever heard of what the pagan Arabs thought about Judaism (that it's just another way of expressing similar religious sentiments)?

Furthermore, Arab Jews, Arab Christians, Arab whatever exist, and aren't bothered. That's fucking tolerance for you. We don't consider ourself 'one' because we're all Muslim, which we're obviously not. We consider ourselves 'one' because our religion tells us that we should, it's how prophet Mohammed did it and his and God's words are the words we live by. So why go against that?

You have a lot to learn about the origins of Islam, it seems.

I suggest you debate the verses with every suicide bomber who qoutes the Koran extensively, and holds a copy in his/her hands, as they prepare to mass murder "infidels". It would serve us all better then telling US all this

Most people who do it are kids. Kids are easily brainwashed. Make a kid feel powerful and passionate about something and I dare you to bend him back to the average kid he used to be. It won't work. When you give a kid the power to make certain things possible, you can't take it back.

Do you think it's easy having a religious debate with a kid who saw his mother get raped and killed? Do you think it's easy to just walk up to a kid and tell him that what he's doing is WRONG and we should accept the fact that his Jewish Israeli cousins are killing and torturing his siblings in front of his own eyes because it's what the prophet would have done? That you should forgive?

Those kids are traumatized. What they're doing is wrong, but they're fucking miserable and see this as their own way of aiding the situation. Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population. Just compare the death tolls in each country and see for yourself.

You think it's just easy for things to HAPPEN. For things to be talked about. I wouldn't talk about these things in Saudi if I wanted to stay alive. If I were in the strict village areas and I talk to an Imam about this, you think he'll want to "debate?" I'll be lynched. Threatened. Beaten. But that's not Islam. It's a sick way of life. It's a struggle for power. Don't confuse anything like that with Islam, no matter how easy it makes things seem. I've gone through enough shit before I was old enough to distinguish what was Islam and what wasn't. I bet you won't go anything half as bad, this is why I doubt you'll fully understand.

Jeanette, how are you any your opinions any better or any more informed?

Because she's open and willing to learn, even if she doesn't agree. I've talked to her on AIM before and she seemed quite informed to me.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

Yeah pharaoh don't give us that shit and tell us, it's just not being PC; it's racism and you're a racist. I couldn't care less about your "leftist" and "rightwing" vocabulary that you use to label everything. You're a racist. and I'm sure there's meetings that can help you cope with stuff like that but that's not my problem.

Lol. Even though I haven't said a single thing about race yet, you can't wait to call me a racist. It's the PC leftie's worst insult, and biggest fear of being accused of themselves. Well it may surprise you to learn that Islam is not a race and neither is homosexuality, so what are you basing your accusation on?

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.

Most people who do it are kids. Kids are easily brainwashed. Make a kid feel powerful and passionate about something and I dare you to bend him back to the average kid he used to be. It won't work. When you give a kid the power to make certain things possible, you can't take it back.

Do you think it's easy having a religious debate with a kid who saw his mother get raped and killed? Do you think it's easy to just walk up to a kid and tell him that what he's doing is WRONG and we should accept the fact that his Jewish Israeli cousins are killing and torturing his siblings in front of his own eyes because it's what the prophet would have done? That you should forgive?

Those kids are traumatized. What they're doing is wrong, but they're fucking miserable and see this as their own way of aiding the situation. Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population. Just compare the death tolls in each country and see for yourself.

What do you call a kid? Most of them are twenty something. The same age as the Nazis were. Were Nazis just kids too? And their parents certainly aren't kids, and they encourage their sons to blow up Jews. The imans aren't kids either, and they preach violence and praise the suicide bombers, referring to them as martyrs.

The 9/11 terrorists weren't traumatized kids, and neither were the 7/7 London bombers. One of them, Shehzad Tanweer, aged 22, who detonated a bomb on the Underground at Aldgate station, killing eight people, had an estate valued at £121,000 net of taxes and debts.

Link here

I wish I had that much money when I was a kid.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Jeanette X

So you insist that the religion is evil and anti-Semetic based on the Koran and you don't even bother PRESENTING THE VERSES TO PROVE YOUR ARGUEMENT and you expect us to be convinced that Islam is inherently anti-Semetic?

Apparently someone told you the Koran was anti-Semetic, and you took it as gospel without bothering to so much as read an encyclopedia entry about it. Can't you think for yourself?

He's already shown what the verse was, it was in the Times link that he posted. If you'd bothered to read it you would have seen it too.


'Abu Hamza’s remarks, which the prosecution alleges amount to an attempt to stir up racial hatred against the Jewish people, were, Mr Fitzgerald said, a reference to the Hadith — sayings of the Prophet Muhammad — in which fighting between Jews and Muslims is predicted.

The Hadith says that the trees will call out to the Muslims “there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him�.'

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh

What do you call a kid? Most of them are twenty something. The same age as the Nazis were. Were Nazis just kids too? And their parents certainly aren't kids, and they encourage their sons to blow up Jews. The imans aren't kids either, and they preach violence and praise the suicide bombers, referring to them as martyrs.

The 9/11 terrorists weren't traumatized kids, and neither were the 7/7 London bombers. One of them, Shehzad Tanweer, aged 22, who detonated a bomb on the Underground at Aldgate station, killing eight people, had an estate valued at £121,000 net of taxes and debts.

Link here

I wish I had that much money when I was a kid.

WRONG.

Most of them are 13.

I live in an Arab fucking country. I'm exposed to these videos EVERYDAY, don't you fuckign come here and tell me my facts are wrong.

Most of them are KIDS. 13 year olds are kids.

Mr Fitzgerald doesn't know what he's talking about either. Obviously the guy got his facts elsewhere if he doesn't speak the Arabic language, he probably had a biased opinion to begin with, so he finds his research from others who are also biased.

Shut the fuck up.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.

WRONG.

Most of them are 13.

I live in an Arab fucking country. I'm exposed to these videos EVERYDAY, don't you fuckign come here and tell me my facts are wrong.

Most of them are KIDS. 13 year olds are kids.

Mr Fitzgerald doesn't know what he's talking about either. Obviously the guy got his facts elsewhere if he doesn't speak the Arabic language, he probably had a biased opinion to begin with, so he finds his research from others who are also biased.

Shut the fuck up.

Where's your proof, bigmouth?
Here's mine:

Here are the main statistics on the 100 Palestinian suicide bombers:

Of the 100 suicide bombers, 75 were killed while perpetrating 67 different missions. (In several attacks, like the one at Beit Lid in 1995, several suicide bombers participated in the same mission.) The other 25 bombers were either intercepted by security forces before carrying out their attack or were captured after their explosives failed to detonate. Seven of the 30 suicide bombers sent on missions during the past year were arrested.
66 belonged to Hamas, 34 were members of Islamic Jihad
67 were between the ages of 17 to 23 and most of the others were also under the age of 30.
54 came from Gaza, 45 from the West Bank and one was an Israeli Arab. (The Israeli Arab, who carried out the attack in Nahariya last month, was also an exception in his advanced age - 53.)
23 had elementary education; 31 were high school graduates and 46 had higher education
86 were bachelors and 14 were married
Despite the steep rise in the number of attacks during the past year, the profile of the suicide bombers has largely remained the same, with the average age of 21.
Link here

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

My proof is living IN THE REGION. My proof is SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE. My proof is FAMILY members who've been there, who do this sort of thing for a living (journalism, war and news photography, etc.)

Your proof is being an ocean away typing up stupid shit carelessly on Google and actually relying on the info given.

It takes one click to edit information on the internet. Have you ever heard of a BOOK? Have you ever heard of learning a LANGUAGE that isn't your own in order to understand a group of people you like to label.

Why do you think I'm learning classical Hebrew? I do this to understand MYSELF, and where I'm coming from. I do this to understand the others I critisize, because there's nothing more shameful and embarrassing in this world than being an ignorant arrogant piece of shit know-it-all like you. Listen to what others have to say you fucking dropout. Talk to the ones who've gone through this instead of basing your so-called "facts" on articles on the Internet and a single translation of a book you're NOWHERE CLOSE TO UNDERSTANDING.

You didn't attack my other posts because you don't have an argument. I don't give a shit about your excuses, you fucking dimwit. Get educated before you get on people's asses.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Furthermore, Arab Jews, Arab Christians, Arab whatever exist, and aren't bothered."

Yeah, I know they exist because I am one. Apparently you know nothing of Jews from Arabic countries. You've told me to learn history, yet you run your own mouth in ignorance. Maybe you SHOULD try Wikiepedia at the very least. They were expelled, massacred, stripped of their rights, and their cultures. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you just refuse to recognize facts?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...iraqijews.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...yemenjews.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...m/lebjews.html
http://www.iflac.com/jac/
http://www.farhud.org/farhud.html
http://www.zchor.org/libya/libya.htm
http://www.orthohelp.com/geneal/holocaust.HTM
http://www.du.edu/~sward/HoloSephardic.htm

Do you want to source your information and back up your claims that Jordan is a hotbed of Islamo-Judaic harmony? What's the current Jewish population of Jordan?

"If I were in the strict village areas and I talk to an Imam about this, you think he'll want to "debate?" I'll be lynched. Threatened. Beaten. But that's not Islam. It's a sick way of life. "

I'm willing to argue on your behalf and say fine, the Koran is being misinterpreted, but there is absolutely no excuse for the lack of acountability. You can recommend I read all the propaganda you want, and it won't change that. Your knee jerk reaction was to rationalize and explain away the violence.... violence which is religiously motivated by the Imams you're scared of.

Tell me the murder of Abu Afak wasn't anti-semitic, or anti-Jewish.
Tell me that the massacre of the entire male population of Banu Qurayz Jews, and the enslavement of women and children wasn't anti-Jewish. Our little moderate Muslim thinks the later story, and the so called redemption of a "heathen" Jew giving in to CONVERSION is a positive story. Of course he was taught these are great merciful stories. What a fraud. I call bullshit.