Go Back   I-Mockery Forum > I-Mockery Discussion Forums > Philosophy, Politics, and News
FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
Mocker
The One and Only...'s Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Harlem
The One and Only... is probably a spambot
Old Oct 18th, 2003, 09:15 AM        Modern-Day Gladiators
Modern-Day Gladiators
by Doug Bandow

Doug Bandow is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute (the source).

The more government changes, the more it remains the same. The Roman Empire built the Coliseum and entertained its citizens with gladiators. Today cities entertain the masses by building stadiums for baseball and football contests.

Washington, D.C., Mayor Anthony Williams wants to bring professional baseball to the nation's capital by contributing as much as $200 million toward a new stadium. A group of northern Virginia businessmen are working to saddle taxpayers with $100 million to $200 million in costs for a new baseball franchise. In fact, more than 30 sports facilities have been built or planned over the last decade. Last year, 15 baseball and football franchises were asking for new stadiums.

Obviously, franchise owners prefer that someone else pay. Since Milwaukee inaugurated the modern gladiatorial era in 1953 by building a stadium to tempt the Braves to leave Boston, governments have spent more than $20 billion, in current dollars, on sports facilities. According to economist Alan Krueger, that's 2 1/2 times what the poor, impoverished sports moguls contributed.

Stadium supporters argue that such government "investments" create jobs. Fred Baranowski, president of the Downtown San Diego Partnership, even exults that the Padres ballpark project "has stimulated property values and residential and commercial development interest in a part of downtown that was dormant for decades."

It is all too good to be true. Public finance experts Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist found that "no recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment and no recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues."

Baltimore's Camden Yards may be one of the nation's best, but Johns Hopkins University economist Bruce W. Hamilton figures every city resident contributes $12 a year toward the stadium's upkeep. And that doesn't include the revenues that could have been generated from investing people's money elsewhere.

Many facilities are huge financial black holes. In San Diego, the Padres convinced the city to build them a stadium - which has been long held up in litigation - and then promptly dismantled the team that went to the World Series. The team later reneged on its promise to build new hotel and office space, which was supposed to help generate tax revenue to pay off city bonds.

The Chargers came up with a $68 million renovation project for Qualcomm stadium. Through revenue-guarantee, city taxpayers effectively buy unsold seats, which has cost San Diego taxpayers $25 million so far. The Chargers are now threatening to move to Los Angeles - unless San Diego builds them a new stadium, thank you very much. Obviously, stadiums generate economic activity. But there's no guarantee that they will even help their own neighborhoods. For instance, Yankee Stadium has not revitalized the Bronx. And even if they help some local property owners, there are losers. San Diego's project has boosted rents, driving out many businesses.

Moreover, enriching a few lucky individuals or companies should not be confused with benefiting the public. Making some people pay so others can profit is a misuse of government. Especially when the same argument could be made for subsidizing any business.

Why not build a new factory for General Motors? Or construct buildings for new restaurants? Even if corporate subsidies were a good thing in theory, there's no reason to believe that a stadium would be more productive than other public programs, let alone private projects.

The real economic cost of stadium construction is the "opportunity cost." That is, any "investment" has to be measured against the benefits that would accrue from spending the money elsewhere, whether creating new schools or providing credit for new entrepreneurs.

Almost every study proclaiming the economic benefits of sports facilities ignores the impact of siphoning that money out of other activities. As Hamilton puts it: "You produce jobs working at the stadium, but you reduce jobs at bars or bowling alleys or clothing stores or wherever else (fans) would spend their money."

Economists Robert Baade and Allen Sanderson reviewed the experience of 10 cities since 1958 and concluded that adding a stadium had no impact on employment. Noll and Zimbalist found only "an extremely small effect on overall economic activity and employment."

The best way for government to promote development is to improve the overall investment and regulatory climate. True, politicians quail before owners' threats to move. Yet if the only way to prevent a team from leaving is to shovel corporate welfare into a billionaire's hands, the proper response, especially from cities and states in fiscal crisis, is to say no thanks. Public officials need to remember what government is supposed to be about. The Roman Empire provided bread, circuses and gladiators to anesthetize its citizens. The American Republic can and should do better.
__________________
I have seen all things that are done under the sun; all is vanity and a chase after wind.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
Mocker
El Blanco's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
El Blanco is probably a spambot
Old Oct 18th, 2003, 10:15 AM       
Part of the problem is that stadiums are long term investments. By the time you see anything that looks like a return, the owner is bitching that the stadium is outdated.

Another part is image. If a team gets up and leaves it looks like the politicians let them go. It looks really bad if that team goes to a new town and wins (a la Rams of the NFL).

And if you people knew what kind of deal Steinbrenner has in the Bronx, you might puke.
__________________
according to my mongoose, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
Mocker
The_Rorschach's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WestPac
The_Rorschach is probably a spambot
Old Oct 18th, 2003, 04:18 PM       
"The more government changes, the more it remains the same. The Roman Empire built the Coliseum and entertained its citizens with gladiators. Today cities entertain the masses by building stadiums for baseball and football contests."

That is an extremely silly premise, the first Colliseums were built by wealthy patrons, Roman Citizens, and only years later became quasi-political tools. Today stadiums are used as the wonders of Baghdad, the gardens of Babylon or the Colossus of Rhodes - To attract the wealthy, or at least their riches. Los Angeles profits so greatly from the Emmy and Oscar Awards that in the wake of September Eleventh New York respectfully requested the right to host either event in order to capitalize on the influx of income. Are either of those events political constructs? No, and neither are stadiums, for all the fact they have political uses. Hell, cigarettes have political uses too, are you going to say that they are provided by politicians now too?

"The Roman Empire provided bread, circuses and gladiators to anesthetize its citizens."


That statement is as laughable as it is ignorant. All of the above were furnished by the private citizens of Rome. It would be like saying the American Government provided Twinkies, Woostock and Survivour to anesthetize its citizens.

Regardless of the valid illustrations in the article, such flagrantly faulty points as this make me question the veracity otherwise presented.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Big Papa Goat Big Papa Goat is offline
Mocker
Big Papa Goat's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Big Papa Goat is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 02:34 AM       
Quote:
Economists Robert Baade and Allen Sanderson reviewed the experience of 10 cities since 1958 and concluded that adding a stadium had no impact on employment. Noll and Zimbalist found only "an extremely small effect on overall economic activity and employment."
I work at a stadium
I don't think that governments are using stadiums for any political purposes, but I do think its a waste of taxpayer money for governments to subsidize stadiums and sports teams, or most other businesses for that matter.

Quote:
Hell, cigarettes have political uses too, are you going to say that they are provided by politicians now too?
What political purposes do cigarettes have?
And were you suggesting that the government doesn't help pay for stadiums? I know that the government helped pay for the construction of the stadium I work at.

Quote:
Today stadiums are used as the wonders of Baghdad, the gardens of Babylon or the Colossus of Rhodes - To attract the wealthy, or at least their riches.
Who are these rich people being attracted by stadiums? And why? And how?
__________________
Ibid
Reply With Quote
  #5  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
Mocker
The_Rorschach's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WestPac
The_Rorschach is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 03:09 AM       
I consider you a waste of matter, so don't expect this to turn into a discourse. This is a one time only set of answers I offer you on this topic.

"What political purposes do cigarettes have?"

They are heavily taxed - it could be argued unConstitutionally-, and as our Forefathers so eloquently stated in the Federalist Papers, taxes serve a political purpose.

"And were you suggesting that the government doesn't help pay for stadiums?"

The Government pays subsidies to tobacco farmers also, that does not make smoking tobacco a Federal product.

"Who are these rich people being attracted by stadiums? And why? And how?"

Apparently you were not aware that some of our nations most affluent attend live sports event, like Jack Nicholson and Spike Lee for instance. Even without them you have organizations like the PBFA - Professional Baseball Fans Association - comprised of those whom, while not as rich as Mr Nicholson, are still wealthy enough to purchase season tickets and memorabelia as well as throw down seven dollars for watered down beer, let alone the average income suburbanite's who fill the majority of seats. Why and how are questions so simply answered I will leave them to you.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
Mocker
El Blanco's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
El Blanco is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 12:15 PM       
Ror, pro sports stadiums do have political implications. They are high profile and big money.

Everytime the plans for a new stadium come up here, all the big politicos come out of the woodwork:

"Oh, you can't take money from the schools."

"The new stadium will bring jobs and tax dollars."

It doesn't matter how much of this is true, its all about image. Remember, we are talking about politicians. Thats their main concern, how they look.

Quote:
Apparently you were not aware that some of our nations most affluent attend live sports event, like Jack Nicholson and Spike Lee for instance. Even without them you have organizations like the PBFA - Professional Baseball Fans Association - comprised of those whom, while not as rich as Mr Nicholson, are still wealthy enough to purchase season tickets and memorabelia as well as throw down seven dollars for watered down beer, let alone the average income suburbanite's who fill the majority of seats.
Thats nothing compared to what those corporate luxury boxes pull in. Thats the real money. And PSL, the single greatest scam ever.
__________________
according to my mongoose, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
ranxer ranxer is offline
Member
ranxer's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: U$
ranxer is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 01:01 PM       
sports are a distraction from the power game..
i think the sports would be subsidized no matter what in this political situation.. a form of revolt control team sports keep the population wrapped up in statistics that have nothing to do with the larger picture that will collapse of the sports attentive american decides the real games of life are going on in congress..

hitler used sports to indoctrinate the nationalist recruits to maintain his base of support.. i REALLY hope we have learned something from this..

seems to me team sports participation outweighs political participitation, is it enough of a disparity to worry about it being used for political opportunism?

i think it is.
__________________
the neo-capitalists believe in privatizing profits and socializing losses
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Zhukov Zhukov is offline
Supa Soviet Missil Mastar
Zhukov's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tasmania
Zhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's army
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 01:04 PM       
Yeah, but I hate baseball.


Cricket rules, ok
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
FS FS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fribbulus Xax
FS is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 02:00 PM       
Oh my God, sports are evil.

The nerds have been avenged.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
Mocker
El Blanco's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
El Blanco is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 02:15 PM       
Quote:
sports are a distraction from the power game..
groooooooooaaaaaaan

Quote:
a form of revolt control team sports keep the population wrapped up in statistics that have nothing to do with the larger picture that will collapse of the sports attentive american decides the real games of life are going on in congress
Ya, because, sports has never entered the political forum *hackcoughJimBrown* *heaveBillBradley* and spoken out about certain political situations.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe people actually enjoy sports? That maybe we willingly give over our hard earned money to be entertained for a few hours?
__________________
according to my mongoose, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
Mocker
El Blanco's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
El Blanco is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 02:16 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Cricket rules, ok
Cricket is a bug, not a sport.
__________________
according to my mongoose, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 02:31 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Apparently you were not aware that some of our nations most affluent attend live sports event, like Jack Nicholson and Spike Lee for instance. Even without them you have organizations like the PBFA - Professional Baseball Fans Association - comprised of those whom, while not as rich as Mr Nicholson, are still wealthy enough to purchase season tickets and memorabelia as well as throw down seven dollars for watered down beer, let alone the average income suburbanite's who fill the majority of seats.
Yeah, like try getting a good seat to a NY Rangers game.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
Mocker
El Blanco's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
El Blanco is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 02:36 PM       
the way they have been playing, the only good seat faces the wall.
__________________
according to my mongoose, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
KevinTheOmnivore is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 02:47 PM       


Yet all the corporate fucktards still buy up the good seats.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Big Papa Goat Big Papa Goat is offline
Mocker
Big Papa Goat's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Big Papa Goat is probably a spambot
Old Oct 19th, 2003, 03:09 PM       
The stadium I work at has about 100 full time workers, and 800-900 part time workers, most of whom are students or retirees. And I understood that rich people go to games Ror, but its not like they move to a city just because they built a stadium. And what is the difference anyway? Most of that money goes to the owners and the players. Tax revenues and employment from stadiums are arguably worse then other businesses taking in a similar amount of revenue, so arguing for government subsidies that way doesn't make any more sense than arguing for subsidization of movie theaters or restraunts.

The Government pays subsidies to tobacco farmers also, that does not make smoking tobacco a Federal product.

All I was saying is that it is a waste of money, not that stadiums are a political device. And I think you can agree that subsidizing tobacco farmers is a waste of money, especially considering the heavy taxation on cigarettes.
__________________
Ibid
Reply With Quote
  #16  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
Mocker
The_Rorschach's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WestPac
The_Rorschach is probably a spambot
Old Oct 20th, 2003, 12:22 AM       
"Ror, pro sports stadiums do have political implications. They are high profile and big money. "

Without a doubt, but re-read the article brother. The author attempts to make a case, at least the tone of his writing suggests he is making the case, that syndicated sports is a Federal franchise. Whether or not politicians manipulate and utilize the industry, it is still private sector, much like the gladitorial games of yore, and to hint at anything otherwise offends History and reason.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Bennett Bennett is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: one shot, right between the eyes, just for old times sake
Bennett is probably a spambot
Old Oct 20th, 2003, 11:08 AM       
I was really hoping this would have something to do with Nitro, Malibu, Gemini, Diamond, Ice, Lace and my little friend called "the Eliminator."
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

   


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:11 PM.


© 2008 I-Mockery.com
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.