Israel enters Lebanon

[KevinTheOmnivore]

ugh, shame on me........

Originally Posted by Geggy

By the way I'm not too sure if hezbollah is what the west paint them to be.

maybe you missed it when abc posted it:

In a scathing speech to a rally of more than 1,000 supporters, Hizbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said peace deals between Arabs and Israel would not bring stability to the Middle East or legitimacy to the Jewish state.

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel," he told the crowd. "Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.

"Peace will not wipe out the memory of the massacres it has committed ... And on this last day of the century, I promise Israel that it will see more suicide attacks, for we will write our history with blood," Nasrallah declared.
http://www.unb.ca/web/bruns/9900/iss...ws/israel.html

[derrida]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

You really have no clue as to how well armed and trained Hezbollah is, do you?

I love this argument, btw. It's the classic "let's not flat out say they shouldn't do anything, but throw them a bone" argument like calling the war on terror a "police matter."

Sending in commandos won't stop Hezbollah from transporting the soldiers into Syria and/or Iran.

And gee, what history lesson might teach us that simply sending "commandos" into Lebanon to rescue prisoners doesn't necessarily work?

Uh, the bombings have nothing to do with rescuing prisoners, right? It's incontestable that hezzbollah needs to have cataclysmic damage inflicted upon it, and the Israeli air force doesn't have the capacity to destroy iranian-built bunkers. Obviously the attacks on the logistical infrastructure should continue, just stop the bombing of civilian neighborhoods when the sole objective is to kill a terrorist leader whose precise location is not only unknown but for who it is impossible to confirm the kill due to insufficient ground intel.

The idea is to bust down doors or enter bunkers and kill hezzbollah members. And there would be enough of them to fend off attack until the airforce can make strafing runs on enemy positions.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by derrida

Obviously the attacks on the logistical infrastructure should continue, just stop the bombing of civilian neighborhoods when the sole objective is to kill a terrorist leader whose precise location is not only unknown but for who it is impossible to confirm the kill due to insufficient ground intel.

The Israeli airforce has called off bombings where there were too many civilians to take the risk. Otherwise, they have dropped leaflets, and made phone calls in advance giving fair warning to get the hell out.

The problem is that Hezbollah has intentionally chosen these locations so that they could use civilian locations in order to protect themselves. You can't get hezbollah without damaging those locations and unfortunately harming civilians who option to stay despite warnings to leave.

The idea is to bust down doors or enter bunkers and kill hezzbollah members. And there would be enough of them to fend off attack until the airforce can make strafing runs on enemy positions.

This is precisely what the IDF is preparing to do, but you can't dismiss the significance of what Israel has already done to Hezbollah. The fact that everyone is surprised that Israel couldn't wipe out Hezbollah in a week is a testament to the Israeli military, but certainly not realistic.

Do you think going village to village, door to door won't cost innocent lives? Allow me to introduce you to my friend Iraq. Hezbollah will be wearing 8 year olds like an 80's sweater. The bombings have been very precise, and targeted.

The bottom line is Lebanon has no control over the southern portion of their country. They've allowed a political party to build a state within a state. If Hezbollah wants to make their own Islamo-fascist separatist version of Lebanon, well more power to them. But it's in the interest of LEBANON to root these elements out, and thus far they haven't done a damn thing. Cab drivers are charging 100% times more than normal to relocate people, and what does the Lebanese government do? Why aren't they assisting with evacuations, or defending their own nation, doing something?

If they could control their own elements, and would stop a militia from using their land to declare war on Israel, the bombings wouldn't have happened.

[Abcdxxxx]

derrida said:

I wouldn't have a problem with this if Israel would just send in commandos (backed up by air support, obviously) rather that the current ineffective and needlessly deadly bombing campaign.

To bad you already blew it by previously questionings israel's right to existance. Stop bullshitting. We don't know how effective the campaign has been. In 13 days or whatever it's been, we have less then 400 casualties total. The BBC has admitted that figure includes some combatants too. By all military accounts, the precision has been unprecedented. Effective? Too early to tell.

BUT... the majority of Lebanon is untouched. The majority of Beirut is untouched.

What I think you're asking for is a replay of the Lt. Colonol Ron Arad incident - the pilot has been missing since 1986, when his plane went down, and he was kidnapped by the Amal Milita. Nobody knows his whereabouts even today, though Israel tried diplomacy to negotiate for imformation. DIPLOMACY FAILED.

Maybe what you want to replay is the 1994 incident when Israel sent a spot team into the West Bank to retrieve a kidnapped soldier, Nachson Wachsman, who held up in a Bir Naballah house by the same terrorists that Rabin had allowed to return to the region as part of his peace offerings. The villagers surrounded the house, and attacked Israel's "commandos", and the soldier was executed before they made it inside. GROUND RESCUES FAILED.

See, the terrorists have long memories, and it's no accident they picked the 30th anniversary of Entebbe. They know that Israel has attempted every strategy possible to respond to kidnappings...and if that didn't work, they figured launching hundreds of bombs in a 48 hour period would do the trick. This isn't all about a few kidnappings, you do realize ?

Derrida also said:

Obviously the attacks on the logistical infrastructure should continue, just stop the bombing of civilian neighborhoods

Again, because you don't get it. The kidnapping was one part of a larger planned provocation by Syria and Iranian backed Hezballah. You can not bomb Haifa repeatedly without expecting Israel to hit back. End of story.

I'll take you seriously when you start calling for Hezballah and Hamas to stop storing and shooting their rockets from civilian neighborhoods. Don't be a pawn. The use of Human Shields is the root of civilian casualties.

Preechr said :

I heard a rumor a few years ago that Israel was working with the Kurds, who I guess don't share the rest of the region's animosity toward Jews, to run a pipeline from there.

Israel has for sure worked with Kurds in many capacities (there are even Israeli Kurds in the Mossad) but do the Kurds even have control of oil they could send Israel? I don't know. A pipeline would still have to go through either Syria, or Jordan, the same way Iran's does. The Iranian line is pretty safe, and anyway, they're not hitting military targets yet. Technion Institute is right below their target range, and they're aiming away from it (probably because they want to move right into it once they wipe the Jews out, just the same way Israel moved into Syria's officer club after 1967, and used it as a food court). It's clear they want to hit civilians (and they're loading up the rockets with poisoned bb's and scrap metal to wound as many people as possible) rather then military targets.

Geggy said:

Wasn't Hariri assassinated one year ago

Yes, he was assassinated by Syria.
Your criticism of Israel's foriegn policy is probably last on the list of why you're an antisemite. Hunting down the one article that might say "Entebbe: an act of Israeli aggression" and deciding that's the truthfull one sure does make you suspect though.
Hizballah were not created to protect their homeland, no. They've set up a State within a State, and been ordered by the UN to leave. They have no legit right to kidnap anyone, or to launch over a thousand missiles into civilian parts of Israel.
Israel is not just rescuing their man. Not even Israel claims that. Yes they have something bigger planned. Again, Israel has made that clear. Want to know what that something bigger is? Living in peace.

[derrida]

Hold the phone, abc man. Did you miss the part where I said that hezzbollah needs to be wiped out of Lebanon? When were we talking about the actions Israel is taking to secure the prisoners? -because that sure as hell isn't what the bombing campaign is for.

Hezzbollah is a bunch of fucking assholes for operating in close proximity to civilians, hey! Dude my only dog in this fight lies in the fact that it's my own country that's supplying Israel with the armaments they're using. I think that gives me a right to be critical of their methods. Otherwise I probably would be just as silent about this as I am about say, the Congolese civil war.

To bad you already blew it by previously questionings israel's right to existance.

wait- didn't you recently try to tell me that if isreal ceased to exist palestinians would still be subject to checkpoints, curfews, etc?

Just like you can't say that life without an Israel, or IDF presence would change anything for Palestinian Arabs, or anyone in the Middle East for that matter.

[Abcdxxxx]

Erm. You seem to think I've said something contradictory. The typical pro-Palestine rally, and websites like Daily Kos call for Israel's destruction. There is a Left agenda which claims Israel is the root of the problems, and dismantling it will bring peace and justice to Palestinians. You've made comments which follow along with that thinking. They're wrong. You're wrong. Israel is the victim.

As for your sense of entitlement due to US sale of arms.... you might want to rethink how disproportionately silent you are about the Congolenese civil war according to your criteria, after all. Any-way we can talk about soveriegn nations, and their right to self defense, because that's always fun, or we can ponder who else is out there to disarm Hezballah (Israel would be my last choice, honestly) but until you realize this is the situation being dealt to Israel, and that they're not happy about it either - then you need to play catchup on your mid-east education and come back to the conversation later.

Here's an uncharacteristacally honest admission from the editor of the Arab Times - no friend of Israel.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabt...asp?msgID=1242
No to Syria, Iran agents.
By Ahmed Al-Jarallah
Editor-in-Chief, the Arab Times


PEOPLE of Arab countries, especially the Lebanese and Palestinians, have been held hostage for a long time in the name of “resisting Israel.” Arab governments have been caught between political obligations and public opinion leading to more corruption in politics and economics. Forgetting the interests of their own countries the Hamas Movement and Hezbollah have gone to the extent of representing the interests of Iran and Syrian in their countries. These organizations have become the representatives of Syria and Iran without worrying about the consequences of their action.

Recently Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier and bombed Israeli settlements with locally manufactured missiles. Soon Hezbollah followed suit, kidnapping two Israeli soldiers. Both these organizations claimed they had kidnapped Israeli soldiers to exchange them for Arab prisoners who are being held in Israeli jails. The fact that Hamas and Hezbollah gave the same reason for kidnapping Israeli soldiers gives us a glimpse their agenda, which is similar to the one followed by Syria and Iran in their conflict with the United States.

While the people of Palestine and Lebanon are paying the price of this bloody conflict, the main players, who caused this conflict, are living in peace and asking for more oil from Arab countries to support the facade of resisting Israel. With the Palestinian Authority close to collapse and the Lebanese government beginning to give up responsibility for what is happening in its territory, Saudi Arabia has been forced to come out of its diplomatic routine and indirectly hold Hezbollah responsible for what is happening Lebanon.

Without mentioning Hezbollah by name Saudi Arabia blamed certain “elements” inside Lebanon for the violence with Israel and said “it is necessary to make a distinction between legitimate resistance and uncalculated adventures adopted by certain elements within Lebanon without the knowledge of legal Lebanese authorities.” While reiterating its support for Palestinian and Lebanese resistance against Israeli occupation, Saudi Arabia has clearly said it is against irresponsible adventures undertaken by certain elements in the region without consulting the legal authorities putting all Arab nations at risk. The Kingdom has also said “these elements must take responsibility for their irresponsible actions and they alone should end the crisis created by them.”
This angry response from Saudi Arabia has politically isolated Hezbollah and Hamas besides holding them responsible for their actions.

This attitude of Saudi Arabia, which has been doing all it can to protect the Arab world from Israeli aggression, is enough to unmask the adventurers, who have violated the rights of their own countries and tried put their people under the guardianship of foreign countries like Iran and Syria. A battle between supporters and opponents of these adventurers has begun, starting from Palestine to Tehran passing through Syria and Lebanon. This war was inevitable as the Lebanese government couldn’t bring Hezbollah within its authority and make it work for the interests of Lebanon. Similarly leader of the Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas has been unable to rein in the Hamas Movement.

Unfortunately we must admit that in such a war the only way to get rid of “these irregular phenomena” is what Israel is doing. The operations of Israel in Gaza and Lebanon are in the interest of people of Arab countries and the international community.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Amos Oz

"Many times in the past, the Israeli peace movement has criticized Israeli military operations. Not this time. . . . This time, Israel is not invading Lebanon. It is defending itself from daily harassment and bombardment of dozens of our towns and villages. . . . There can be no moral equation between Hezbollah and Israel. Hezbollah is targeting Israeli civilians wherever they are, while Israel is targeting mostly Hezbollah."

Originally Posted by James Carroll

"As one who rejects war, I regret Israel's heavy bombing of Lebanon last week, as I deplored Israeli attacks in population centers and on infrastructure in Gaza. . . . Yet, given the rejectionism of both Hamas and Hezbollah . . . is the path of negotiations actually open to Israel? . . . There is no moral equivalence between enemies here. . . . It seems urgent [to] reaffirm foundational support for Israel. . . . The fury of anti-Israel rage among Arabs and Muslims is accounted for only partially by the present conflict. It resuscitates . . . the long European habit of scapegoating Jews. . . . No one should think that embedded contempt for Jews -- anti-Semitism -- is not part of the current crisis."

[Abcdxxxx]

No idea about the authors background, but this editorial brings up many things I've been screaming about here for years...

Mark Steyn: If only they had refused to indulge Arafat
The myth that the Muslim world's problems are directly linked to the Palestinian question has gone up in flames, argues Mark Steyn
July 26, 2006
A FEW years back, when folks talked airily about "the Middle East peace process" and "a two-state solution", I used to say that the trouble was the Palestinians saw a two-state solution as an interim stage en route to a one-state solution. I underestimated Islamist depravity. As we now see in Gaza and southern Lebanon, any two-state solution would be an interim stage en route to a no-state solution.
In one of the most admirably straightforward of Islamist declarations, Hussein Massawi, the Hezbollah leader behind the slaughter of US and French forces 20 years ago, put it this way: "We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you."

Swell. But suppose he got his way, what then? Suppose every last Jew in Israel were dead or fled, what would rise in place of the Zionist entity? It would be something like the Hamas-Hezbollah terror squats in Gaza and Lebanon writ large. Hamas won a landslide in the Palestinian elections, and Hezbollah similarly won formal control of key Lebanese cabinet ministries. But they're not Mussolini: they have no interest in making the trains run on time. And, to be honest, who can blame them?

If you're a big-time terrorist mastermind, it's frankly a bit of a bore to find yourself deputy under-secretary at the ministry of pensions, particularly when you're no good at it, and no matter how lavishly the European Union throws money at you, there never seems to be any in the kitty when it comes to making the payroll. So, like a business that has over-diversified, Hamas and Hezbollah retreated to their core activity: Jew-killing.

In Causeries du Lundi, Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve recalls a Parisian dramatist watching the revolutionary mob rampaging through the street below and beaming: "See my pageant passing!" That's how opportunist Arabs and indulgent Europeans looked on the intifada and the terrorists and the schoolgirl suicide bombers: as a kind of uber-authentic piece of performance art with which to torment the Jews and the Americans. They never paused to ask themselves: Hey, what if it doesn't stop there?

Well, about 30 years too late, they're asking it now. For the first quarter-century of Israel's existence, the Arab states fought more or less conventional wars against the Zionists and kept losing. So then they figured it was easier to anoint a terrorist movement and in 1974 declared Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organisation to be the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people", which is quite a claim for an organisation then barely a decade old. Amazingly, the Arab League persuaded the UN, the EU, Bill Clinton and everyone else to go along with it and to treat the old monster as a head of state who lacked only a state to head.

It's true that many nationalist movements have found it convenient to adopt the guise of terrorists.

But, as the Palestinian movement descended from airline hijackings to the intifada to self-detonating in pizza parlours, it never occurred to its glamorous patrons to wonder if maybe this was, in fact, a terrorist movement conveniently adopting the guise of nationalism.

In 1971, in the lobby of the Cairo Sheraton, Palestinian terrorists shot Wasfi al-Tal, the prime minister of Jordan, at point-blank range. As he fell to the floor dying, one of his killers began drinking the blood gushing from his wounds. Doesn't that strike you as a little, um, overwrought? Three decades later, when bombs went off in Bali, killing hundreds of tourists plus local waiters and barmen, Bruce Haigh, a former Aussie diplomat in Indonesia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, had no doubt where to put the blame. As he told Australia's Nine Network: "The root cause of this issue has been America's backing of Israel on Palestine."

Suppose this were true: that terrorists blew up Australian honeymooners and Scandinavian stoners in Balinese nightclubs because of "the Palestinian question". Doesn't this suggest that these people are, at a certain level, nuts? After all, there are plenty of Irish Republican Army sympathisers across the world (try making the Ulster Unionist case in a Boston bar), yet they never thought to protest against British rule in Northern Ireland by blowing up, say, German tourists in Thailand.

Yet the more the thin skein of Palestinian grievance was stretched to justify atrocities halfway around the world, the more the Arab League big-shot emirs and EU foreign ministers looked down from their windows and cooed, "See my parade passing!"

They've now belatedly realised they're at that stage in the creature feature where the monster has mutated into something bigger and crazier. Until the remarkably kinda-robust statement by the Group of Eight and the unprecedented denunciation of Hezbollah by the Arab League, the rule in any conflict in which Israel is involved - Israel v PLO, Israel v Lebanon, Israel v (Your Team Here) - is that the Jews are to blame. But Saudi-Egyptian-Jordanian opportunism on Palestine has caught up with them: it has finally dawned on them that a strategy of consciously avoiding resolution of the Palestinian question has helped deliver Gaza and Lebanon and Syria into the hands of a regime that's a far bigger threat to the Arab world than the Zionist entity.

Cairo and co grew so accustomed to whining about the Palestinian pseudo-crisis decade in, decade out, that it never occurred to them that they might face a real crisis one day: a Middle East dominated by an apocalyptic Iran and its local enforcers, in which Arab self-rule turns out to have been a mere interlude between the Ottoman sultans and the eternal eclipse of a Persian nuclear umbrella.

The Zionists got out of Gaza and it's now Talibanistan redux. The Zionists got out of Lebanon and the most powerful force in the country (with an ever-growing demographic advantage) are Iran's Shia enforcers. There haven't been any Zionists anywhere near Damascus in 60 years and Syria is in effect Iran's first Sunni Arab prison bitch. For the other regimes in the region, Gaza, Lebanon and Syria are dead states that have risen as vampires.

Meanwhile, Kofi Annan in a remarkable display of urgency (at least when compared with Sudan, Rwanda, Congo and others) is proposing apropos Israel and Hezbollah that UN peacekeepers go in to keep the peace not between two sovereign states but between a sovereign state and a usurper terrorist gang. Contemptible as he is, the secretary-general shows a shrewd understanding of the way the world is heading: already, non-state actors have more sophisticated rocketry than many EU nations; and if Iran has its way, its proxies will be implied nuclear powers. Maybe we should put them on the UN Security Council.

So, what is in reality Israel's first non-Arab war is a glimpse of the world the day after tomorrow: the EU and the Arab League won't quite spell it out but, to modify that Le Monde headline, they are all Jews now.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...3-7583,00.html

[KevinTheOmnivore]

So, I'm not so sure about israel's strategy here. They seem to be feeling pressure internationally to ease up on what they're doing, which is understandable, but is the end desire now merely a "buffer" from Hezbollah? Now that it appears israel won't be expanding their offensive, I wonder if what they've accomplished is worth the damage that has been inflicted.

If the end goals were to get back their soldiers, disarm Hezbollah in compliance with the UN, and assist the Lebanese government in protecting their own borders, than I feel like they have failed at all three thus far. That's a lot of bombs, and a number of innocent lives lost, all for a "buffer".

The only thing these thugs respect is strength, and anything short of fully disarming Hezbollah will be viewed as a victory for Hezbollah and Ayatollah Geggy against the Zionist imperialists. The attacks will persist, if not in the form of rockets, but in other forms.

I'm guessing a lot of backroom dealings are going on, and some have argued that Syria needs to be a part of the discussion, which I suppose is a valid point.

I think Lebanon is a good country, and could be an amazing country without the Syiran/Iranian/armed Hezbollah elements holding such sway there. I don't see any deal coming out of this though that would fix these problems.

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that "buffer zones" are a cop out. My guess is that Koffi Annan's stunt worked, and Israel's new government were never 100% resolved to complete the job in the first place.

There's been a fair amount of "what the fuck are they doing?" to the entire operation. "Why are they hitting Lebanon?" became a lot less of a question once Lebanon started to declare a less transparent unity with Hezballah.

Israel secured their main water source today, which might not matter on the World peace meter, but it's huge for the sake of Israel's own security. Other then that, there's too much talk of what Israel hasn't or can't do. Too much talk of Israel's failures in this response. Partly because they're not staging reports for CNN, and they actually release information to the press. There may be something to showing the Israeli army as human, since a huge criticism against Israel has always been that they are the ones who wield power in the region. This is the first time since 1973 that people are connecting the dots between small proxy armies and their huge State sponsors to show that it's Israel not versus a small downtrodden people but Israel vs. the rest of them. Note the Holy War talk is also back in fashion, so I think this war has helped to clarify the situation for the World. I doubt that's all by Israeli design though... so I haven't really answered your question...because we really don't know yet, and unfortunately, you make some good points.

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

300+ kilos of explosives from Hezballah to Israel transported via the new long distance rockets hit Israel today. The aim? Not military strongholds or weapons depots, but the hospital and police station. What strange way for a non terrorist political party to attack eh?

In other news nearly 300 hezballah flag waving volunteers from Iran are gathering at the Turkey border to join the war effort. In order to get through Turkey they arent carrying weapons it remains to be seen whether or not Turkey will allow them to pass. They range in age from young teenagers to grandparents.

Also a great quote from an Iranian Cleric.

"humanity should think about a new united nations organization. Abody in which big powers veto smaller ones is defending criminals rather then human rights."

"You cannot deprive iran of it's rights to have non military nuclear power through resolutions passed by a broken inefficent security council"

I don't agree with allowing iran nukes, or defending hamas and hezballah, let alone china and korea's debaucles. But you gotta admit his statemnts about the UN and security council is 100% right.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Courage the Cowardly Dog

300+ kilos of explosives from Hezballah to Israel transported via the new long distance rockets hit Israel today. The aim? Not military strongholds or weapons depots, but the hospital and police station. What strange way for a non terrorist political party to attack eh?

Courage, I don't know where you read this, but it must be a mistake.

Only Israel and America target civilians. i mean, sure they drop leaflets, make phone calls, broadcast over TV and radio, and circulate news on the internet of bombings. They do that though only to appear to be concerned about human life.

As for Hezbollah-- I'm sure they just misfired every time. They are the party of Allah after all (not to be confused with God, which makes one think of Pat Robertson and pro-lifers, who are clearly a greater threat), so they would never do what you've proposed.

[Abcdxxxx]

Hospitals and police stations, huh? At least they're getting closer to something which could be vaguely construed as a military target. Maybe that's what Nasrallah meant by "beyond, beyond" Haifa.

At least Kofi finally removed the UN human shields from the battle field.

[El Blanco]

And only two weeks after they requested to leave and a few days after they were killed.

[ScruU2wice]

Kofi annan is total peace brokering slut :X

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeah, because treating terrorists like Arafat and Nasrallah as heads of state has brought about a whole lot of peace.

[ScruU2wice]

and ignoring them and refusing to acknowledge them as leaders of anything has done much of the same...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Tell me when Arafat was ignored, or insufficiently heard, in your opinion. I'm curious, because I was under the impression that he was the primary representative in discussions with Israel and/or America.

hezbollah should be ignored. The U.S. has said it, and the UN has also said it (remember 1559?). maybe in your mind it makes sense to negotiate with terrorists, but perhaps you lack the moral clarity to see the difference between them and Israel in the first place.

[ScruU2wice]

before ABC calls me a pro-palestinian anti-semite, I'd like to say that knowing both pro-israeli and pro-palestinian people, I don't doubt that there will ever be peace in the middle east, because of the very fact that people on both sides label everyone else a terrorist.

There will always be people who will refuse to acknowledge Israel as a soveirgn state. There is no possible way any amount of bombs any combination of words and any mixture of naurcotics will sway them to accept and trust Jewish people. I know someone who fucking boycotted any movie made by a Jew, and is constantly ranting on and on about Jewish conspiracies. This is just the way the way they were raised and the thinking that has been engrained into there narrow perspectives.

The jewish friends I know will never ever, trust palestinian for this reason. They will never ever consider them as anything but terrorist trying to abolish israel. and probably rightfully so. Again there is no amount of evidence that will get these people to trust palestinians or see them as anything but terrorists.

So I always find it the slightest bit refereshing to see someone trying to get a cease fire, and why I'm a little angsty about a picture of Kofi Annan shaking hands with a leader of group at war as sign that their bedfellows. Since it is his job to meet people and shake hands and try to talk them out of blowing shit up, especially if it's 4 of his UN observers.

But you know endless bloodshed of innocent civilians both israeli and lebanese under the pretense of collateral damage is cool too.

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

hezbollah should be ignored.

I'm not trying to cure the patient I'm trying to cure the symptom. You can bomb the "infastructure" of hezbollah which probably will be good thing minus the casualties. But you'll get a new group or 2 new groups with the same ideaology, since it was democratically elected.

But if you get hezbollah to stop firing rockets and return the two israeli soldiers they are probably regretting having kidnapped, then maybe you can maybe stop the immediate violence.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

innocent people die in war. Many of them died during World War II, which I suppose you also would've opposed, Mr. Chamberlain. Hezbollah started a war with Israel, claiming to speak on the behalf of Lebanon. Lebanon has failed to deal with Hezbollah, and has instead opted to blame Israel. That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel is perfectly entitled to at the very least protect their borders, protect their citizens, and respond to aggression. Rather than appeasing these thugs, giving them a cookie so that they can do it again in 5-10 years, they have decided to do away with them entirely. The UN told the Lebanese government to do this two years ago, and they either couldn't or refused to. Israel will do it for them.

Peace agreements are great, when you have two partners who actually desire peace. Hezbollah, Hamas, and every other militant, radical muslim doesn't want peace. They want Israel gone. Why should Israel negotiate with them any longer (since they have in fact negotiated in the past with these monsters, to no avail)?

People can think whateve they like. Anti-semitism, much like racism, sexism, and every other "ism", exist all around the world. Extremist Arabs and/or muslims can hate whoever they like, but if they choose to target civilians in their attempt to do rid the Middle East of the Jews, then they need to be stopped. No discussion, just stopped. When they can put down their weapons, acknowledge Israel, and stop reverting to terrorism, then there can be discussion (again, ask Jordan and Egypt).

[Courage the Cowardly Dog]

I hear the UN wants to send 200 lightly armed peace keeping troops at the border, as if they can slow the rockets, planes and artillery. IMO these trops would do more good gaurding the wall in Gaza and patrolling helping make sure check points are enforced and suicide bombers stay on their side of the fence.

As for the suggested buffer zone on the border i think that's nearly worthless with these long rage rockets, but a big tall border fence with posted gaurds or even snipers i they wanna take out a rocketeer(thats what you call the rocket guys right?) after he fires that sounds like a great idea.

When Egypt sets up a wall between them and Gaza it's just border security, when israel does it they call it aparthied. I think Nelson Mandella would spit in the face of any idiot who called the wall aparthied, the US mexican border is closer to that. it's just a secure border, good fences make good neighbours (or at least it makes their terrorism a little more difficult)

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

innocent people die in war. Many of them died during World War II, which I suppose you also would've opposed, Mr. Chamberlain.

I'm not wholely passionate about this topic so you can question my morality all you want. Innocent people dying in war is only the visible consequence of war, I'm saying that the surviving families and friends will become card carrying muslim radicalists. Just look at the Israeli arabs who lost their two boys. They blame it all on israel, when it was hezbollah rockets that killed their kids. The 1/8th of the population that's been been left homeless won't blame hezbollah.

I'm saying that more civilians that die the worse it looks on israel. Which is really sad because Israel maybe bombing accidentally and they get blasted, when Hezbollah aims them at hospitals and civilians, and doesn't loose the hearts of any. Israel might win one battle but hezbollah will win more elections, which of course is the overall big problem.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Hizbollah can win elections, and Lebanon can hate Israel. Super.

If you attack a nation, or if you attack their populous, then you need to be stopped. I certainly think there is a systemic problem in the Arab world when they flock to radical Islam and anti-semitism to solve their problems. When the Lebanese people elect a party that wants to destroy another nation b/c they are Jewish, well yeah, that's a problem.

But there's not so much that Israel or America can do about that right now. Rolling over and waiting for the next pogrom won't fix it, either.

You stop them. You make them understand that violent actions, especially against civilians, carry violent consequences. You teach them a lesson, and maybe they'll learn not to elect radicals and homicidal maniacs into power (if the vote is even something they have extended to them). Hizbollah holds what, 30% of the seats in Lebanon? They don't even hold a majority in the government, and they took it upon themselves to declare war on another country.

That's not just Hizbollah's problem, it's also Lebanon's, and they need to deal with it.

[Abcdxxxx]

What do Democratic countries do when hit with 1500 rockets?

When has anyone said "oh they shouldn't bomb that Kibbutz, it's only going to further militarize those farmers" or "if they keep shooting rockets into Jewish nursery schools, it's going to fuel a new generation of extremists". An Israeli doctor was kidnapped in the WB yesterday, and found burned alive in the trunk of his car simply because he was a Jew. He was a father of four children. What are the chances they're going to grow up to be suicide bombers?

There is only so much you can bend over backwards to avoid (or ratioanlize) admitting the enemy has an Islamist agenda of fascism and genocide. When has that ever improved life for the Palestinians? I keep asking the same questions hoping it might inspire some logic here. Arafat was actually irrelevant for years, banished to Tunisia...what did bringing him back to treat him like an ambassador do but flame the fire? Hezbollah don't have a mission to the UN. Annan has no business treating an army who wear hoods in public with diplomatic relations. It's a farce! You know what does juice them up? Saying they're undefeatable. Saying they're no worse then a Democratic country that has made unilateral gestures towards peace. Pretending Hizbollah have moderate goals which are rational, and diplomatic... THAT'S the problem.

P.S there are plenty of Jews and Arabs who trust each other.