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  #26  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Apr 13th, 2004, 03:21 PM       
Have you ever been to the ME? I have. Abject poverty describes some of it, but not all. Look at the UAE. There are places in Iraq where conditions were crippling, but fuck, drive through Watts some time. Or Compton. Or Brooklyn. Or the Mission District in San Francisco.

If our war is against poverty, lets clean our own backyard first.

Equality under the law is your supposition eh? So you're saying I can expect the same representation and protection unde the law as say, the Kennedies, OJ Simpson, Bill Gates and Kenneth Lay?

A man regretful of a sexual encounter which resulted in a child can have it aborted or file rape charges to avoid fiscal responsibilities?

As for perfection. . .It should be the aim of our efforts, not philosophical conscription.
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Brandon Brandon is offline
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Old Apr 13th, 2004, 03:30 PM       
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They don't seem to be fearing Americans enough to prevent entire cities from rising up.
Well, we're not Saddam Hussein, for one thing, and two or so cities don't count for the entire Iraqi population.

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Have you ever been to the ME? I have. Abject poverty describes some of it, but not all. Look at the UAE. There are places in Iraq where conditions were crippling, but fuck, drive through Watts some time. Or Compton. Or Brooklyn. Or the Mission District in San Francisco.

If our war is against poverty, lets clean our own backyard first.

Equality under the law is your supposition eh? So you're saying I can expect the same representation and protection unde the law as say, the Kennedies, OJ Simpson, Bill Gates and Kenneth Lay?

A man regretful of a sexual encounter which resulted in a child can have it aborted or file rape charges to avoid fiscal responsibilities?

As for perfection. . .It should be the aim of our efforts, not philosophical conscription.
The point, Ror, is that we have the values as an aim of culture in the first place. Of course it hasn't been perfect, no society is. No matter what you do, people will go hungry and die, and someone will feel cheated. But you have to admit America has done remarkably well in terms of bringing itself closer to the vision.
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  #28  
mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Apr 13th, 2004, 03:31 PM       
What will we do if, as is highly likely, the Shiite majority VOTE for Sharia Law? Overthrow them again until they adopt the kind of democracy we meant?

Are the attrocities you point out the reason we are at war in Iraq? Because we need to get very busy cleaning house, starting with our close pals, the Saudis and our trading partners, the Chinese. Do you believe that Iraq was the worst defiler of human rights? And that human rights had anything at all to do with our invasion? Will you tell me that my unwilligness to use our military to overthrow the leaders we don't like (and I have a very long list) means I favor Sharia?

Leave aside that W and company weren't thinking about such niceties. This is all about preemption, not human rights. You use Saudia Arabia as an example of how bad thing can be in a dictatorship, and I agree. But we have nothing against them, we won't even act agressively to get their royal family to stop funneling money to known terrorist groups. Directly after 9/11, we didn't question Osama's family, we flew them out of the country! I bet Jose Padilla wishes he had that kind of family.

You are advocating an entirely different foreign policy than the one we have and saying 'well this is close!' My contention is it isn't close, I don't think the administration wants any of the things you're talking about and I think they count on getting decet people like yourself so riled they can't see straight.

Terrorism is terrible. Far more people die in car accidents. You are being manipulated.

Human rights abuse is rampant and an abomination. Bush is not a human rights president. Join Amnesty International. You are being manipulated.

I also think a stable, democratic Iraq would be a lovely thing. Hell, I'd settle for Pakistan having elected leaders and Saudi Arabai having a constitutional monarchy. I'd like to by the world a coke, but you don't do it at gun point.
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  #29  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Apr 13th, 2004, 03:39 PM       
No, actually I don't. As you say Utopia does not, and can not, exist. The best a society can do is endeavour to support an atmosphere which balances out disappointment with a proportional amount of bliss to keep its adherents relatively satsified. Cultures we regard as primitive have already achieved 'the vision.'

Achieving 'the vision' on a global scale must be accomplished through example, not military prowess - No matter how expedient such means might be.

Look at the success the US enjoyed in the ME during the 1930's implimenting 'the vision' and how drastically short we have fallen since. . .And if you care to notice, it wasn't the government which curried the favour of Iraqi's and Iranians then, it was humanitarians and missionaries who felt an obligation towards their fellow man but it reflected the good will America harboured.

We're doing the wrong thing, and no matter how pure you make our motives, it won't rid the taint of our actions.
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Brandon Brandon is offline
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Old Apr 13th, 2004, 04:09 PM       
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Originally Posted by mburbank
You are advocating an entirely different foreign policy than the one we have and saying 'well this is close!' My contention is it isn't close, I don't think the administration wants any of the things you're talking about and I think they count on getting decet people like yourself so riled they can't see straight.
I see your point.
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davinxtk davinxtk is offline
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Old Apr 13th, 2004, 04:12 PM       
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Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
...
We're doing the wrong thing, and no matter how pure you make our motives, it won't rid the taint of our actions.
Bullseye.
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(1:02:34 AM): and i think i may have gone a little too far and let her know that i actually do hate her, on some level, just because she's female
(1:03:33 AM): and now she's being all kinds of sensitive about it
(1:03:53 AM): i hate women
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