Hitler / Bush

[Helm]

The biggest and most important difference between the two, the way I see it, is that I believe that Hitler was evil. I do not believe Bush is evil. Just horribly misguided and foolish.

It's disturbing that, whereas I'm sure you ment well, you fall to such terminology to state such a point. What is 'evil'? Such third-rate ethical judgements not only are naive, but also fail to properly put into perspective what exactly Nazi Germany set out to do under the guidance of Hitler. 'Evil' just doesn't cut it. The main philosophical excuse of the german elite behind the genocide remains Nietzche, and to call his ethical standpoints 'evil' is as fundamental as calling the 'axis of evil' exactly that. It's a vacant statement, always used as a tool, as means to an end, rather than expressing an actual viewpoint. To judge anything only by how it happened, is incomplete. You should also undestand what brought it to be, in a historical, philosophical and economic context. For example, to understand the rise of totalitarianism in germany after the first world war, you'd have to take into consideration the fact that germany came very badly off economically after that, having to pay war 'funding'(sorry, the english term escapes me), as well as having spent a good deal of money in a war that was largely unsuccesful. They had trouble to adjust to the capitalistic model of economy, being at such a disadvantaged position. Couple this with some very serious refugee tension, and their wounded ethnic pride, and you have the perfect context for someone to rise up and declare the 'return to values' and 'the battle for the betterment of all germany'. Hitler was not evil. He was the product of a wounded, starving germany, begging for an easy solution.

[VinceZeb]

Helm, I am glad you do not talk to me, becaue that was the biggest bullshit statement I have ever seen in my life!

HERE IS WHAT EVIL LOOKS LIKE, HELM! 10+ MILLION PEOPLE PUT INTO CAMPS AND DESTROYED! THAT IS EVIL!

You have to be the most vapid person I have encountered. I hope you do not try to gather any sort of power in this world, because I would almost guarentee that I would move to your place of residence and make sure you are put back into the cave you came from.

Evil exists, you fucking moron. It is people like you that allow the Hitlers, Maos and others to exist. Don't judge, because it is wrong to judge, it is just a throwaway term! God, you make me sick. I am glad this is the internet becuase I would already be in jail right now after the fist connected to my arm puts your teeth down into your stomach.

[Zebra 3]

- I agree with VinceZeb, Hitler is nothing like Bush, for one, Hitler actually created work unlike Bush, and Hitler had that cool mustache unlike Bush that has that dumb crooked eye stare, and Hitler signed up for WWI unlike Bush that decided not to go to Vietnam, but now for one reason or the other is a navy pilot wannabe...

[Protoclown]

Helm, I understand and appreciate what you have to say, and I recognize that there are many different contributing factors to Hitler's rise and the start of World War II. Believe me, I know he wasn't so simplistic in his goals as Cobra Commander, but for the sake of ease, I decided to use the term "evil" without defining it. Which is also why I said "I believe" he was evil, not that he was (since I didn't define evil). And I do believe that he was evil, all extraneous circumstances aside. I believe in a good/evil morality, but I also do not think that everything is clean cut and in black and white terms. I see two extremes and then a WHOLE lot of muddled grey area in between, where categorization becomes difficult if not impossible. And in my opinion, Hitler was definitely on the extreme evil end of the spectrum.

Anyway, I had a feeling somebody might call me on that post, and while I'm more than willing to open up a discussion about the nature of good and evil, I don't think this thread is the place to do it.

[Zebra 3]

Originally Posted by Helm

...the fact that germany came very badly off economically after that, having to pay war 'funding'(sorry, the english term escapes me),...

- The word is restitution.

[The_Rorschach]

I happen to like Nietzche. . .I used both he and Aeschylus of Sparta in a recent essay to outline why it was exactly that Democracy was an egalitarian myth. He was a big proponant of civic and political responsibility, something the Nazi party lacked.
One of the reasons I happen to admire the man is because he believed that democratic equality was an impediment to human excellence as it attributes a "herd morality," which in turn fosters and encourages a spirit of entitlement which made individuals more apt to rely upon the government for assistance in every concievable capacity. Furthermore, he belied that in order for human excellence to develop freely, there should never be any equality constraint on people: a noble heart should not be put down in order to make it equal to a base heart, people should be allowed to compete freely for power and as a natural result, noble people will win the competition and become rulers of human society. Competition breeds success
Now contrast this with fuckers like Rousseau and Marx whom hate inequalities. They both generally defined freedom as something which made them free from responsibility, rather than a responsibility in and of itself. For them, freedom meany being able to realize certain "higher" goods (such as to free and equal participation in political activities, freedom from alienation, etc). In order for people to have the ability and oppourtunity to achieve these higher goods, the society has to create certain conditions for people -such as the social crutch of equality.
Now, can I get a little Nietzche love?

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EDIT
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Vibe: I'll contrast the truth with the paper point by point, beginning with numero uno.

Italian, I could use some help. Finals week. Not much time

#1 Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office.

Hitler, though a skillful manipulater of political intrigue, was actually GIVEN his leadership. In November 1932 elections, like every election before it since 1924, the Nazis failed to get a majority of seats in the Reichstag. Their share of the vote fell – from 230 seats to only 196. Hitler contemplated suicide, he saw himself as his nation's saviour and felt betrayed that he could got gather the necessary support. Yet, unfortunately, it was at that time he was rescued by Hindenburg. Franz von Papen (a friend of Hindenburg) was Chancellor, but he could not get enough support in the Reichstag. Hindenburg and von Papen were having to govern by emergency decree under Article 48 of the Constitution. They offered Hitler the post of vice-Chancellor if he promised to support them.
Hitler refused – he demanded to be made Chancellor. Von Papen and Hindenburg took a risk and on 30 January 1933 Hindenburg made Hitler Chancellor. He thought he could control Hitler and how wrong he was. So you see, in the end, Hitler did not TAKE power at all – he was given it. It all but fell into his lap.

[AChimp]

I believe that Hitler also used that power to eventually be declared Chancellor-for-life; not 100% sure, though.

From our current perspective, there are many bad things about Hitler, but there were some good things that he did. Bringing an entire economy out of the shitter and turning it into an industrial powerhouse, for one.

The Germans at the time obviously didn't think he was bad, or they would have voted even less for him. I doubt that Hitler would have been offered even part-time Chancellor duties if he'd been reduced to 96 seats rather than 196.

I see what Helm is saying and I tend to agree with him. Defining "good" and "evil" all depends on what side of the fence you're on.

[mburbank]

Vince; while I was of course moved and impressed by your typewritten threats against Helm, I'm fairly sure you missed what he was getting at. You read the phrase "Hitler wasn't evil" and your ability to think went straight out the window.

Helms point was that once you label someone 'Evil', you know longer need to think about how they came to power or why or how to recognize it happening or prevent it from happening gain. You don't need to think.

Hitler could have been (and may have been) the most deeply evil bastard ever. Without national context that might have amounted to absolutely nothing beyond a very nasty mediocre painter obsessed with Jews.

Here's the sad thing. For Helm, English is a second language and his communication skills are better than yours.

Your so eager to have your little righteous berserker rages. Does it make you feel all manly? And does it matter to you tht in the process you completely missunderstand that someone is saying? Do you really think Helm meant "Ahhh, Hitler was no big deal."? And if he did mean that, don't you think I'd find it offensive?

[Ronnie Raygun]

"The Florida situation was a fiasco from any perspective."

Yes, and mainly it was the fault of the democrats......afterall, they designed the ballots. Besides, Florida had the same amount of problems as any other state. All the focus just so happened to be on FLA because both candidates needed it to win.

"The political manuvering in question was what got counted and what didn't. Bush did better. Bully for him. I don't think he in any way stole the office. He did better in the political arena though not necessarally the popular one."

Wrong. Gore and the dems only wanted democratic counties recounted.....which they were....3 TIMES! And they were just going to keep recounting those 3 counties until Gore won the election. That's why the Supreme Court stopped it.

"See Ronnie, step outside your little box just a bit. And you'll see that things are not always black and white."

I have looked at this situation from all angles.

[Zebra 3]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Helms point was that once you label someone 'Evil', you know longer need to think about how they came to power or why or how to recognize it happening or prevent it from happening gain. You don't need to think.

- In that case should we watch CBS's upcoming mini-series Hitler: The Rise of Evil or not?

[AChimp]

No; we should watch The Last Crusade again for the humourous Hitler cameo.

[Vibecrewangel]

Ronnie -

It was a democrat designed ballot. Your point being? Why do you feel the need to continue pointing out things most of us already know? We know how the electoral college works. We all know that it was a democrat designed the ballot. Would it have been different if it was a republican designed ballot? Other than more yelling, probably not.

CNN On December 12, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Florida Supreme Court ruling ordering a full statewide hand recount of all undervotes not yet tallied. The U.S. Supreme Court action effectively ratified Florida election officials' determination that Bush won by a few hundred votes out of more than 6 million cast.

That is more than 3 counties. Though Gore and his damn 3 counties up to that point was annoying at best.

Now Ronnie, we could both go back and forth and find hundreds of little things to bring up. Chads, dimples, the absentee ballots counted in violation of provisions. It doesn't serve any purpose. The election is over and Bush is in office. And might I repeat, maybe you will catch it this time......I don't think Bush stole the office. Though Gore won the popular vote by a slight margin. Bush took the election after much political manuvering on both sides when it came to Florida. Again I state "Bully for him"
Neither Bush nor Gore impressed me so this was just depressing to watch.

Now, about stepping outside of your box. I wasn't talking about the situation. I was talking about how you seem to insist that anyone who doesn't like Bush, disagrees with him in any way or brings up anything negative about him is a liberal. That just isn't the case.

[Vibecrewangel]

Ror -

But wasn't Hitler playing Schleicher against Papen all that time? Hoping to undermine everyone in his way until he was the only choice left?

Of course one could argue that Bush was given his leadership too. But then we'd have to go into chads and dinples and counts.....and I just don't wanna do that. Besides, that wasn't in the article. :D

[ranxer]

Wrong. Gore and the dems only wanted democratic counties recounted.....which they were....3 TIMES! And they were just going to keep recounting those 3 counties until Gore won the election. That's why the Supreme Court stopped it.

um, i heard a much different reason..

Here is Justice Scalia's admission:

The reason the recount had to be stopped before any evidence was heard, and before the briefs were even filed, was because, said Scalia, the recount threatened "irreparable harm" to Mr. Bush, "by casting a cloud on what he claims to be the legitimacy of his election."

i couldnt believe my ears when i heard that press conference..
what a day

[ItalianStereotype]

sorry ror, i can't be of much help right now. i am barely keeping afloat with my own finals. if this thread is still going next week, then it's go time.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

I thought this would be an amusing contribution to this thread.

I don't agree with most of it, but the background music alone makes it worth it (hint: turn up your volume!).

[CastroMotorOil]

That was definately amusing kevin, although the piece itself i don't really trust at all, but yes the music was awesome.

[AChimp]

Best link in a long time!

[Miss Modular]

I think it's time to post that Jesus/Hitler Guinness ad again.

[Vibecrewangel]

Italian -

Good luck on the finals!!!! I'm sure you'll do fine. You is a smart guy and stuff.

I welcome your input on this topic if Ror and I haven't covered it all by the time you get back.
As I do with Ror, I like discussing / debating things with you. I have to actually work when I do. I sure can't bull-no-shit with either of you. It's why I usually stick to topics I know well. :D This time I posted something I know a bit about, but was more political than I am used too. Now I actually have to look things up to make sure what I remember is correct. Darn you both, darn you to heck! :P

BTW - I really don't see any valid comparisons between Hitler and Bush. But I chose this side for the sake of the post and the follow-up so I am stuck with it. "grumble grumble grumble" Thought I'd make sure I made that perfectly clear before people got too emotional over this topic.

Oh and Ror....do you have finals too? I thought I saw that earlier in this thread.




And Mod.....YES YES YES

[mburbank]

"I have looked at this situation from all angles."

-I'm sorry, I find that a fairly incredible statement. if this is the truth cn you summarize any arguments of sides other than your own?

[AChimp]

[The_Rorschach]

Yeah. Scored 100% on the one taken today. Hawaiian Studies, getting to know the historical and cultural background. Interesting stuff.

Dug an I'mu, cooked a pig, dug the shit up and served, twenty hour project. Tried awa for the first time too. good shit. Puts you on your ass.

Not alchohol. Sime kind of root.


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E D IT
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Even if it was given to Bush too, assertion that both were "forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office" is still false.

[Vibecrewangel]

Congrats Ror.

I love Hawaii. If I could afford to live there I would go and never look back.





Bush / Hitler - I guess it would come down to how you interpret "forced"

[The_Rorschach]

I like it too.

This is far afield, but speaking of that class, my instructor, "Pohaku" Tom Stone, is supposed to be hosting something on Comedy Central this summer -unless he was totally bullshitting us last night, and I was too drunk to pick up on it.

"2. Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized national outrage, in Hitler's case the Reichstag fire, in Bush's case the 9-11 catastrophe."

The day following the yhe Reichstag fire of '33, Hindenburg signed into law -in a format akin to an Executive Order- a declaration of the current state of emergency, which not merely limited certain lberties, but actually curtailed basic rights of the German people. Hitler, who produced 'proof' that Communists were behind the terrorist act -such as Van der Lubbe's admission-, managed to get newspapers and radio transmissions censored - Meetings between individuals were allowed only at certain places and times, limited in order to keep the chances conspiracy in check. All forms of private corrspondance were allowed to be read by government officials at any times, uncluding letters and phone calls. The Law stayed in force until 1945.

Now, when one carefully scrutinizes the information available concerning the Fire, it becomes obvious that Van der Lubbe could not have committed the act alone, as he says. Huge amounts of pertol were utilized in setting the blaze, and the fire department wrote a report saying in some places the fire resisted ever attempt to put it out. One man with a tin of kerosine and a handful of matches COULD NOT have set it himself, which leaves us with two theories:
One- Hitler was right, there was a conspiracy of Communists and Van der Lubbe was protecting his allies; or
Two- Van der Lubbe was lying, and was working for the Nazi party, perpetrating an act which would give Hitler just the clout and power he needed to subvert his enemies.

We all know about September 11, we all know who drafted, wrote and passed the Patriot Act(s). Neither were Executive Orders.

If I need to elaborate, I will, but I think we can safely say number 2 is a fanciful account of what truly transpired.