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Buffalo Tom Buffalo Tom is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 11:33 AM        Am I being paranoid?
The CBC late night news did a story last night about the neo-conservative forces behind the current American administration's foreign policy. In the piece, Neil Macdonald, the correspondent, made the connection between Bush's foreign and defence policies, and a report written in 2000 by the Project for the New American Century. He noted that many contributors to the paper now occupy key positions in the Bush administration: VP Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Undersecretary of state for arms control and international security John Bolton, Chief of Staff Lewis Bibby. Called 'Rebuilding America's Defenses', the report called for the establishment of an American-dominated global constabulary that would be used to assert American interests throughout the world using military force. Chillingly, the authors stated that the only way the American public could ever get behind such a Big Brother-ish idea (my words) would be if a 'Pearl Harbour-like' event occurred to galvanize the country into a more hawkish view of the world.

There's an X-Files story in there somewhere.
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Buffalo Tom Buffalo Tom is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 11:44 AM        Re: Am I being paranoid?
Eh, dumb me. Damn double posters.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 11:47 AM       
This document while it gets little newsplay is in fact a matter of public record.

If you are suggesting that 9/11 was either manufactured by America or allowed to happehn by America, then yes, I'd say you were being paranoid.

If however you are suggesting that the inner circle of this administration was primed for and cynically leapt upon the 'pearl harbor like event' the instant it happened, ramming through foreign and domestic policy goals they had long held during a moment of national panic and mourning, then no, I don't thinks that's paranoid at all. I think that's a logical conclusion to draw, the one I draw myself, and why I think of these people as outright evil as opposed to simply differing from me in opinion.
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Buffalo Tom Buffalo Tom is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 12:12 PM       
At this point, I don't believe there was a government conspiracy to allow 9/11 to occur. However, if evidence did turn up that such a conspiracy existed, let's just say I will be the least surprised person on the planet.

What I find surprising is that a report advocating a similiar Pax Americana surfaced in 1992 during Bush Senior's administration, written by then undersecretary for Defense Wolfowitz, and it was quickly dismissed by the Republican administration. I am disturbed to see that the forces for American-driven globalization have gained such power that what was ludicrous in 1992 has become common-sense in 2003.

The chair of the Project of the New American Century, Donald Kagan, a professor of Classical Greek History at Yale, was blunt about what he thinks is the United States' role in the world: "You saw the movie 'High Noon'? We're Gary Cooper."
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 12:15 PM       
I think it's great a college professor at Yale would use such a rich, complicated metaphor to describe current geopolitics. That's what makes Yale a real stand out school.


Well, that and Skull and Bones.
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 02:56 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo Tom
The chair of the Project of the New American Century, Donald Kagan, a professor of Classical Greek History at Yale, was blunt about what he thinks is the United States' role in the world: "You saw the movie 'High Noon'? We're Gary Cooper."
I vote we "hang up our guns" then.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 03:03 PM       
Are you sure it was Norm Macdonald reporting, and what you were really watching was an old episode of Saturday Night Live?
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 03:10 PM       
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Are you sure it was Norm Macdonald reporting, and what you were really watching was an old episode of Saturday Night Live?
If you're not concerned that our nation has become a little too right wing for comfort in the last two years, perhaps you should be making an appearance on the next "Jay Walking". Wake up!
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 03:14 PM       
You know, you have to possess the largest wealth of baseless liberal bias on the board. Kindly go back to sorting through the Goth forum with all the other shit witted intellectual light weights, and leave disccussions here to those who have an idea of what they are talking about.
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 03:25 PM       
Well, I saw you cavalierly dusting the intelligent opinions of others with crude humor and decided to reply in kind. If you're willing to start an intelligent conversation and back it up with relevant and credible sources, I can do that too. The choice is yours. I didn't turn the thread into an "Insult Fest". You did. Your move.
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Buffalo Tom Buffalo Tom is offline
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 03:41 PM       
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If you are suggesting that 9/11 was either manufactured by America or allowed to happehn by America, then yes, I'd say you were being paranoid.
US planned war in Afghanistan long before September 11

Eh, this could nothing more than conjecture and crackpot-ism, but he does raise some interesting points.
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 04:04 PM       
i saw the same report, bt! it scared the piss out of me, so i looked up this organization to check it out for myself. here:

www.newamericancentury.org

scary fucking scary scary 8-)
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 05:03 AM       
My move? What, are you calling me out?

I have nothing to prove to anyone, let alone some snot nosed civilian shitbag who believes she's an authority on any given subject she offers an opinion in.

Do you really think the liberals out there are the incarnation of sweetness and light? Or do you believe that because they line their pockets with money from 'good causes' that they are somehow immune to the inherent beaurocracy and corruption that mires capitol hill? Yes, Conservatives use an "American-dominated global constabulary that would be used to assert American interests throughout the world using military force." We've been acting 'imperialistically' for economic reasons since the conception of our country, using the secular arm to secure what we could not through negotiations and treatise. You think ONLY Conservatives have been doing this? If so, you're only fooling yourself.

Wake the fuck up already.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 09:24 AM       
psst: kelly is a boy, you little lying sack of hawaii poo poo.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 11:10 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Are you sure it was Norm Macdonald reporting, and what you were really watching was an old episode of Saturday Night Live?
Considering he said 'Neil Macdonald' I think that's doubtful.
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 12:53 PM       
i dont think you're being paranoid at all,
i totally believe there are people in the bush administration that relaxed security knowing the attacks on 9/11 were coming..
if not, why were so many reports of terrorist trainings ignored?
why have many americans in the security community resigned in protest? why were we letting known terrorists into the country?
why were bin laden family members flown out of the country on a private jet on 9/12 when all airports across the nation closed down? Even the FBI was asking to interview them and the bush administration said the binladens are "beyond reproach" GAH! wtf? so if they were beyond reproach then what do they have to hide from the FBI??????
why is there virtually no honest investigation into the reports we had before 9/11? why are so many americans sworn to secrecy and not allowed to testify for fear of disclosing national secrets? why did the plan to attack afghanistan for the pipeline deal fit so well with 9/11? oil and power people, oil and power!

i find the lack of information and coverup/dismissal on these questions more telling than the information we Do have.

if these questions are not relevant why then are they dismissed and attacked so vigorously??
and yea i know many of yall are plenty happy to dismiss these questions but many of us will keep asking until we get honest answers. Everybody admits the government is lieing they just dont want to look too deep.
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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Mar 19th, 2003, 04:21 PM       
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I have nothing to prove to anyone, let alone some snot nosed civilian shitbag who believes she's an authority on any given subject she offers an opinion in.
First off, I'm a male ... nice investigative skills there pal. Second, I was a sergeant (E-5) in the 45th Spt Grp which was staged in Riyadh during the Gulf War. I can fax you my DD 214 showing and honorable discharge and some copies of the orders for combat commendations if you need proof. On second thought, you don't deserve it.

Quote:
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Do you really think the liberals out there are the incarnation of sweetness and light? Or do you believe that because they line their pockets with money from 'good causes' that they are somehow immune to the inherent beaurocracy and corruption that mires capitol hill?
Quit shoving words down my throat. Not only was that NOT what I said. That's not even in the ballpark of what I was talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Yes, Conservatives use an "American-dominated global constabulary that would be used to assert American interests throughout the world using military force." We've been acting 'imperialistically' for economic reasons since the conception of our country, using the secular arm to secure what we could not through negotiations and treatise. You think ONLY Conservatives have been doing this? If so, you're only fooling yourself.
No kidding?! I never disputed THAT fact if your were paying attention. Teddy Roosevelt was one of the most imperialistic presidents ever and even though he was part of the republican party, he was not well like because his platform was nowhere near theirs. Franklin Roosevelt was a deomocrat who served almost four terms of office much of which took place during World War II ... John F. Kennedy was a democrat who was in office during the first inssurection of troops into Vietnam and was followed by another democrat, Lyndon Johnson was served during the height of the war ... blah, blah, blah ... I could go on but that wasn't my point I was making in the first place so any further information along these lines would be, at best superfluous, at worst annoying. My fears of the republican party run along the lines of their affiliation with the moral majority and other right wing coalition factions along with their tendencies to pass (or attempt to pass) laws which take away my personal rights or invade my privacy. Their beginning to get too Orwellian for my taste. It may seem paranoid but if you look at it from the stand point of starting small and building, it's a little scary. Example: national ID cards, reorganizaton of INS putting them under the Justice Department, softening of requirements to obtain a wire tap, ect. THAT was my point.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 01:49 AM       
On second thought, you don't deserve it.

Way to go buddy. I'm guessing from your attitude what you got was closer to a BCD than a Honourable. You know what? I don't even give a shit, I wouldn't offer the steam off my shit to know what you've done with your life because it obviously hasn't given you any perspective into world affairs. Hell, you're a step away from Ranxor in my opinion.

No kidding?! (words words balh)

Thats for your general overview of the last hundred years. I never heard any of that before. We really had two Presidents named Roosevelt? Were they related?

Two notes:

Moral Majority. . .Not too much of a majority any more.

If you're worried about the suspension of liberties, just think about it this way. After serving in the Armed Forces, you've already given them away. You're still legally beholden to the UCMJ, and if you signed the same shit I did, regardless of occupation or personal affairs still lible for recall whether you are in the reserves or not. Personally, I don't think the government is efficient enough for any Big Brother bullshit. Only a few years ago did they break up the phoneline monopolies, yeah, just as they began their trek into obsoletion.
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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2003, 05:11 PM       
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Way to go buddy. I'm guessing from your attitude what you got was closer to a BCD than a Honourable.
No kidding?!
Nice conjecture but I find it rather odd that I'd be able to procure a Bachelor of Sciences degree in Computer Science under the GI Bill had I been discharged under a BCD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Thats for your general overview of the last hundred years. I never heard any of that before. We really had two Presidents named Roosevelt? Were they related?
I was merely responding to a point you were making concerning the philosopy of the two parties as it pertained to military imperialism, ect even though that wasn't the point I was making in the first place. At the time, I didn't even see how your comments could even be construed as a response to me as they weren't even along the same lines as the comment I had made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Moral Majority. . .Not too much of a majority any more.
Although, I agree, that "moral majority" is a misnomer, you know as well as I that it's not necessarily the lobby with the most members so much as it is the one with the most $$$.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
If you're worried about the suspension of liberties, just think about it this way. After serving in the Armed Forces, you've already given them away. You're still legally beholden to the UCMJ, and if you signed the same shit I did, regardless of occupation or personal affairs still lible for recall whether you are in the reserves or not.
Nope. There's an initial obligation of 8 years no matter the active time served. Example: If you signed up for a four-year enlistment, then your obligation to the inactive reserves is still 2 years from the time of discharge, ect. That being said, my obligations in that respect are at an end. They can't reactivate me even if they wanted to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Personally, I don't think the government is efficient enough for any Big Brother bullshit. Only a few years ago did they break up the phoneline monopolies, yeah, just as they began their trek into obsoletion.
Although some of the things I'd witnessed in the military would lead me to believe that the government is hopelessly disorganized in a lot of ways, there are certain agencies that I do have grave apprehensions about. All I'm saying is that Nazi Germany didn't evolve overnight. It organized in small increments. It's sort of like the old theory about how you should trust your friend's opinion about how your girlfriend is seriously fucking with you rather than your own judgement as your on the inside and have to many feelings attached and are blind to common sense. Basically, I don't want to give our government the foothold from which to start. You have to drop this "my country right or wrong" and "it can never happen here, the best country in the world" nationalistic attitude. The truth is that when your complacent and don't pay attention to the little things going on around you, it certainly can happen here. I don't see my oppostion to government actions as trying to malign it so much as make it the country that I always believed it was and should be. If nothing else, it's my DUTY as a citizen to vote and watch for these things rather than assume the state of apathy that I observe a lot of Americans are taking on.
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