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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Apr 10th, 2004, 02:40 PM        Is Iraq America's Lebanon?
Thought this was interesting......

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/10/in...rint&position=

April 10, 2004

NEWS ANALYSIS
The Parallels of Wars Past

By JAMES BENNET

JERUSALEM, April 9 — Americans struggling to make sense, or maybe political hay, out of the violence convulsing Iraq turn almost reflexively to the searing experience of the Vietnam War.

Israel is haunted by another parallel: its 1982 invasion of Lebanon, which for Israelis of a certain generation was their Vietnam. It, too, was envisioned as a bold mission to combat terrorism and reshape part of this region to be stable and friendly to the West.

"In Lebanon, we tried to figure out what was similar to what went on in Vietnam," said Avraham Burg, a member of the Israeli Parliament who went to Lebanon as an officer in the paratroopers and returned to lead a movement against that war. "You have a circle here: it's Vietnam, Lebanon and Baghdad."

The uncertain combat zones of Vietnam and Lebanon posed nightmarish challenges to soldiers. Those challenges may seem familiar to marines in Iraq as they try to sift enemies from civilians, without alienating most Iraqis.

"People look at the map and they say, `This is a desert, this isn't a jungle,' " said Augustus Richard Norton, a professor of international relations and anthropology at Boston University. "The point is there are functional equivalents to jungles. In this case, they're cities. They're just as impenetrable to us as the jungles were 40 years ago."

Dr. Norton, an expert on the Middle East, fought in Vietnam and later served as a United Nations peacekeeper in southern Lebanon.

At a grander level, a level of global strategy and even myth-making, Iraq has echoes of Vietnam, which was presented by the White House as a test of American resolve against a rising international menace, Communism.

But in terms of specific, stated objectives for the application of military force, Iraq looks more like Lebanon.

In Vietnam the Americans had a clear if shaky client, the South Vietnamese government, and an enemy, North Vietnam, with a strong political structure.

In Lebanon the Israelis, like the Americans in Iraq, plunged into a vacuum — or more precisely into a maelstrom of political and religious rivalries.

"The problem of how to rule a society that is divided, a country that does not exist as a state with a central authority with legitimacy — this is a problem Israel faced in the 1980's in Lebanon, and the United States now faces in Iraq," said Menachem Klein, a political scientist at Bar-Ilan University outside Tel Aviv.

When they invaded, the Israelis were showered with rice by Shiites who lived in fear of Palestinian militants. Within a year, they were being bled by the Shiites, whom they failed to enlist as allies. "In the Middle East — as in many places around the world — the enemy of my enemy can be my enemy as well," Mr. Burg said.

Noting that tens of thousands of Americans died in Vietnam, Dr. Norton said, "The Vietnam parallel is a bit of a stretch, in terms of scale. But I do think the Lebanon one is striking."

It may be the Americans in Iraq need now to learn lessons from the Israeli experience in Lebanon that veterans like Mr. Burg feel the Israelis should have learned from the American experience in Vietnam. But the differences among the three conflicts may prove more significant than the similarities.

For example, some experts argued that in Lebanon, pragmatic Shiites never had the backing of a clerical authority on the order of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani of Iraq. Mr. Sistani, who sees in the American pledge of democracy a chance for Iraq's Shiite majority to gain effective control, has appealed for calm.

"The mainstream clerical clout is really with Sistani," said Martin Kramer, an authority on Islam and Arab politics. "That's a tremendous advantage the United States has in dealing with the Shia."

In Lebanon before the Israelis came, as in Iraq under Saddam Hussein, the Shiites were an economic underclass deprived of political power, despite their growing numbers.

In the 1970's, a Shiite movement called Amal began working within the Lebanese political system. It was led by a reform-minded cleric named Moussa al-Sadr, a distant relative of Moktada al-Sadr, who is now leading an insurrection against the Americans in Iraq.

By the late 1970's, Amal, which means "hope" in Arabic, was trying to protect Shiites in southern Lebanon — not against Israel, but against Palestinian militants who had established bases there.

Dr. Norton argued that it was not a lack of mainstream Shiite clerics but rather Israel's failure to cultivate the Shiites that led to their radicalization. Israel had little feel for the divisions within Lebanese society. It allied itself with elite Christians, fanning the Shiite sense of deprivation.

The Israelis achieved a central goal, driving the Palestine Liberation Organization out of Lebanon, from where it was waging attacks on Israel. But Israel's ambitious regional plan — to turn Lebanon into an ally — collapsed with the assassination of its choice as Lebanese president, Bashir Gemayel, a Christian.

Israeli troops hunkered down in southern Lebanon, where a new, militant Shiite movement, Hezbollah — "the party of God" — began picking them off.

Backed by Iran and Syria, Hezbollah militants, camouflaged among noncombatants, pounded away at the wedge between the local Arab population and the occupying Israeli Army. Israel responded to Hezbollah attacks with checkpoints, searches, and raids into mosques that drove civilians into the arms of Hezbollah.

Dr. Norton argued that a "tipping point" came more than a year after the invasion, on October 16, 1983. That day, an Israeli military convoy provoked a riot in Nabatiya when it tried to drive, honking, through tens of thousands of Shiite worshipers gathered to celebrate their most important holiday, Ashura.

"It was a moment when people could no longer sit on the fence," Dr. Norton said. "And that is what I sense has happened in Iraq. Now I think you have passed the point where many of those centrists or moderates who were sitting on the fence could afford to do so."

The problem for Israel became how to get out of Lebanon, much as the United States faced the problem of extricating itself from Vietnam.

The continuing Hezbollah fire claimed, on average, fewer than 31 soldiers' lives annually. But Israel could not vanquish the group, and as political pressure grew at home it finally left southern Lebanon after 18 years. Its retreat from Lebanon in May 2000 might have contributed to the Palestinian uprising by persuading Palestinians that Israel would respond only to force, analysts say.

Dr. Klein argued that the United States should leave Iraq "as soon as possible," even at risk of criticism as failing to achieve all its goals. "It is better to face this argument than to have higher losses in the future," he said.

But Dr. Eran Lerman, the head of the American Jewish Committee's office here and a retired colonel in Israeli military intelligence, said that any suggestion of an American departure would be a disaster for the mission.

"Conveying the image of permanence is tremendously important in the short run," he said. "For an Iraqi to provide the U.S. government with information, and then to find he has been left to a cruel fate at the hands of a new Iraqi power structure, is precisely the sort of thing that destroys the intelligence gathering and operational cycle."

Mr. Burg, the former Israeli paratrooper, noted that next week President Bush is to meet with the man who commanded the Israeli operation in Lebanon, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, then the minister of defense.

"In '82, it was Sharon who didn't learn from the American experience in Vietnam and was doomed to repeat it," said Mr. Burg, a leader of the left-leaning Labor Party and a critic of Mr. Sharon's. "Here is George W. Bush, who didn't learn from Sharon's experience in '82."

Each man, he said, may now hope for a political boost from the other.
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Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
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Old Apr 10th, 2004, 04:42 PM       
Okay see I read this stuff and I'm shocked that anyone would mistake themselves as capable of writing such an article without some basic understanding of the situation.

1) Israeli's try and parallel everything to American's. Their comparisons are always pretty thin and emberassing. They're obsessed with the status of American products because for years they could only get British hand me downs, and the rare US import was exciting. So of course they want to think of Lebanon as another Vietnam. They're dying to talk in the romantic terms we do with sorrow when Vietnam comes up. Even Americans try and parallel everything to Vietnam. It's immature. I mean, if this is our Lebanon, and Lebanon was their Vietnam, when we've already had our Vietnam then....

2) The only solid parallel between Lebanon and Iraq is a lot of Syrians flooding through unsecured borders.

3) The article doesn't mention that Lebanon was already embroiled in a 40 year civil war before Israel got involved. There was no option to align themselves with Shiites in those days. It wasn't like Israel snubbed one side of the feud, there was no diplomacy to be had within the Shiite community in 1982.

4) The "checkpoints" were operated by US Marines. It was an American invention, but it's debatable if you can even call them checkpoints. Our military stands at the side of roads and looks in cars. That's how the US "secures borders", and towns, and roads.

5) The article downplays Hizzballah's threat, claiming "fewer then 31 soldiers" die at their hands annually. What about the non-combatants who die? What about their financial activity supporting violence in the West Bank? What about the Journalists, and Soldiers they kidnapped in front of the UN observors who videotaped the event, that were executed? What about the daily shelling into the farms below?

6) Hizzbalah are a spin off of the PLO. Arafat was perched up in Lebanon gathering up tanks and putting together an army to rush into Israel, and what he left behind was Hizzbalah...who are still putting together an army with a plan to rush into Israel one day. It's an on going situation. I don't think we're ready to learn from it yet.

7) The article doesn't mention that Israel didn't pull out of Southern Lebanon for another 18 years, and that the land still remains occupied by Syria. If we're to learn anything, it's to take the threat of Syria, or even Iran, seriously.

8) The only real comparison is we're on terrain we can't master, we can't secure the borders, it's in the same region, and you have the same religious dynamics. You could probably make the same comparisons to El Salvador and so on and so on.
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Old Apr 10th, 2004, 04:58 PM       
One of the reasons I posted this was to see ABC pick apart everything that was even remotely critical of Israeli policy.
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Old Apr 10th, 2004, 05:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
The article doesn't mention that Lebanon was already embroiled in a 40 year civil war before Israel got involved. There was no option to align themselves with Shiites in those days. It wasn't like Israel snubbed one side of the feud, there was no diplomacy to be had within the Shiite community in 1982.
Why not? It does in fact state that "In Lebanon the Israelis, like the Americans in Iraq, plunged into a vacuum — or more precisely into a maelstrom of political and religious rivalries." It doesn't ignore the civil conflict entirely, and you need to explain the relevance of that argument, anyway. That only begs for more comparisons to Vietnam, in my opinion.

Why did an on-going civil war negate negotiating capabilities with the Shia, whereas it didn't effect negotiations with what the article refers to as "Christian elites"?


Quote:
7) The article doesn't mention that Israel didn't pull out of Southern Lebanon for another 18 years, and that the land still remains occupied by Syria. If we're to learn anything, it's to take the threat of Syria, or even Iran, seriously.
"The continuing Hezbollah fire claimed, on average, fewer than 31 soldiers' lives annually. But Israel could not vanquish the group, and as political pressure grew at home it finally left southern Lebanon after 18 years."

I think the article clearly states that Iran and Syria were instigating the problem. And as for the Syrian occupation, where's the relevance to the analogy? Does Iraq need to be occupied by Syria for the comparison to work? What exactly is your point here, that people let Syria off the hook? You're right, they do....and?


Quote:
8) The only real comparison is we're on terrain we can't master, we can't secure the borders, it's in the same region, and you have the same religious dynamics. You could probably make the same comparisons to El Salvador and so on and so on.
Except that you couldn't, because the crux of the article was to draw away from the Vietnam comparisons, which are more of a political statement than a genuine, comparative analysis, and to look at a more relevant comparison, which I think you described as viable above. The terrain is the same, the regional dynamic is the same, the religious vigor is the same, and so on and so on.
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Old Apr 10th, 2004, 11:56 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Why not? It does in fact state that "In Lebanon the Israelis, like the Americans in Iraq, plunged into a vacuum — or more precisely into a maelstrom of political and religious rivalries." It doesn't ignore the civil conflict entirely, and you need to explain the relevance of that argument, anyway. That only begs for more comparisons to Vietnam, in my opinion.
As of last year. Iraq wasn't a nation acting on it's civil turmoils. Even hatred towards Iran had subsided. Israel didn't need to "plunge" it's way in to find it's place amongst the pre-existing rivalries, it was already there, and already in control of land that was formerly Syria - so by deault of it's existance, was involved in Lebanon before it invaded. Meanwhile, the US isn't even on the same continent as Iraq. The war in Lebanon was full scale and spiralling out of control before Israel was asked to go in to stop it, or as many argue, add fuel on the fire. The US was acting in a supposedly preventative measure, and not as peace keepers which was Israel's supposed intent. Military action during a time of civil war doesn't automatically equate a Vietnam situation..in the case of Lebanon, the quagmire (sp?) already existed, and involved Israel before they turned on their tanks. In the case of Iraq, the infighting was being suppressed until the various factions seized on an opportunity to take advantage of the US presence, and lack of strong rulership.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
Why did an on-going civil war negate negotiating capabilities with the Shia, whereas it didn't effect negotiations with what the article refers to as "Christian elites"?
The Christians asked Israel for help, while the Shiite Muslims refused to even acknowledge their existance let alone negotiate. The closest the Shiite's would come was playing telephone with the Jordanians or the US. Negotiations work both ways, and at the time, the Christians were being massacred right and left and were in greater need of help against Shiite agressors. US Embassys were being bombed by Muslim groups, not Christians.

Quote:
I think the article clearly states that Iran and Syria were instigating the problem. And as for the Syrian occupation, where's the relevance to the analogy? Does Iraq need to be occupied by Syria for the comparison to work? What exactly is your point here, that people let Syria off the hook? You're right, they do....and?
My point is that the strongest thing holding this analogy together is Syria's relevance to both situations. Otherwise they're pretty individual events. You're right, the article did mention Israel remained for another 18 years, but what I intended to say was that they had already been a presence at the Lebanese border for over two decades.

Quote:
Except that you couldn't, because the crux of the article was to draw away from the Vietnam comparisons, which are more of a political statement than a genuine, comparative analysis, and to look at a more relevant comparison, which I think you described as viable above. The terrain is the same, the regional dynamic is the same, the religious vigor is the same, and so on and so on.
Lebanon was it's own freakish situation which I don't believe has any relevance to Iraq beyond the involvement of Syria, and location on the map. As I stated before, you could take any of our complex military actions in the last 30 years and make the same arguments about terrain, and regional dynamic. I see this more as a comparison being made by someone with a simplistic view of the Shiite community, who wanted to relate the only other incident he could find where a percieved Western army found conflict with the Shiite underground. The dynamic is entirely different. In a Lebanon analogy who is playing the US role in the conflict? Who plays the UN's role? What about the Brits? Is Iran playing the Syria role, or is Syria playing the Syria role? Is the idealogy behind Shiite resistance even the same thing now as it was during the Lebanon conflict? Finally, US has entirely different motivation in Iraq then Israel did. So what's the comparison?
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