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  #26  
Kitsunexus Kitsunexus is offline
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Old Mar 16th, 2010, 01:52 PM       
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Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
"However, your perception of red may be different than mine, and wouldn't that cause problems for the game?" - again, this seems to work in real life, idk how it'd throw off a game. Our "perception of red" holds true for the existing RGB system of displaying colors and I've yet to hear a complaint.
UGH. >_< You're not getting what I'm trying to tell you. Lemme explain...

You're running on the assumption that the game programmers will create a world that everyone percieves as the same, no matter what brain it's played on. This would require a crapload of data due to having to store every little nuance the brain processes consciously and subconsciously. You couldn't make a streaming system or a level of detail system for that kind of data, the brain would recognize that something was wrong (basically hitting the Uncanny Valley) and there would be the possibility of it rejecting the game and killing the user, if the massive influx of data didn't already.

The only way I think this could be solved would to be not making whole games but instead giving suggestions as to how things progress in the game, for instance telling the user there is a man with a gun in the room but leaving his mind to picture it the way he wants. This way there would be no huge dump of data needed to play the game, and it would be a lot safer in that regard.

However you could run into a situation during multiplayer where one person's rendering does not work with another person's rendering. For example the game suggests that the man brandishing the gun fires at the users. User 1 pictured him to have a shotgun, and saw User 2's head blown off, which isn't true because User 2 is still alive, and he saw the man with a pistol. Thus a conflict is created, and it could cause problems with the game, endangering the users. (Of course this is another terrible example because said situation can be easily remedied by defining what kind of gun the man is holding, however this presents a new issue; If the game is using the suggestion system and I say the man is holding an H&K MP7 but the user has never seen one before, what happens then?)

I admit I'm not that good at giving these examples (as shown with this and the red apple) but you can see what I'm getting at, yes? The only safe way (and feasible, because even if the mass data dumping was safe nobody could model all the data necessary for a completely believable manmade mindworld) requires different perceptions, and this could also lead to problems.

Now what you've said in response to mebasically amounts to me not fully understanding technology that doesn't exist yet. And while that is in some ways true, you haven't provided any solutions that WOULD work, just faith in technological progress, so I'm interested in hearing your implementation of this system, without avoiding problems by saying stuff like "because future technology will have alleviated the issue of X" where X is one of my perceived flaws with the future technology that does not yet exist.

If you think my reasoning is wrong, why? If you think that I have only one notion of how this could be done, how else do you believe this could be done?

And finally (and at the risk of this sounding like a flame), you imply that I have had no comparable experience with this, which is right. And that all I have to combat it is a notion in my head, which is right. Point me to some research in this direction and I'd be happy to rethink things. But you say that I'm doing the same thing to the OP, which is a bizarre accusation to make, and it seems like a colossal backfire of trying to reverse my own argument against me. I mean, no experience with voxel games? As said, I've played Shadow Warrior and Outcast, and I used to play the Delta Force demos back on my old machine. I may not have programmer-level knowledge about how these games work, but I like to learn about game engines and stuff, and read about it. Maybe one day I'll try and make something, but for now I'm happy just reading about it. Arguing with theories in my head on this subject? I've pretty much said that I'm just agreeing with the comments on the website, and to the best of my knowledge (and FWIW, Google+Wikipedia), it's all valid. As for the quote about putting an LOD system on a voxel engine? HE FLAT OUT STATES IT IN THE END OF THE VIDEO. So I'm interested to read your response to that as well.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I had to explain myself, and a wall of text is the best way to do it.
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  #27  
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Old Mar 16th, 2010, 02:00 PM       
They can make a mouse curser move with brain power, I don't think brain jacking is too implausible.
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Kitsunexus Kitsunexus is offline
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Old Mar 16th, 2010, 02:05 PM       
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Originally Posted by Tadao View Post
They can make a mouse curser move with brain power, I don't think brain jacking is too implausible.
I saw that too, and it is definitely an amazing feat, but I don't think it has much to do with brain-jacking in the sense we're talking about. Science has proven that it is possible to control outside things with brain impulses (though the concept is still in it's infancy) but what we're talking about here is sensory INPUT, and then controlling that sensory input purely in the brain as if it were a lucid dream. I haven't seen any science experiment attempt something like that, and would be VERY intrigued if there was such an experiment that I didn't know about.

EDIT: It just donned on me that it may be possible and safe if instead if literally tapping the brain with wires the game was to somehow hack your dreams. I see what Chojin means by having more than one option now.
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Old Mar 16th, 2010, 02:23 PM       
I just saw a House episode were they did just that! All lies of course, but I've been told that if I can dream it, I can do it!

Seriously though, I'm talking about Ghost in the Shell type of brain jacking. It's really is amazing what we have done technically with materials outside our body, and we haven't figured out how to harness our bodies potential, but let's just say that we found a way to jack the brain and people were having problems seeing and controlling what everyone else sees and controls. I'm sure there would be a tutorial to tell you that this is an apple and that apple is red, not green. Eventually you brain would recognize those inputs, but that's just the old dogs. The kids would adapt to it by kindergarten.

That is all very speculative, but this is a very speculative subject.
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Old Mar 16th, 2010, 11:07 PM       
You're asking me for scientific reasoning on technology that I speculated would perhaps exist a few thousand years in the future? That's tough. I can't do that.

That's like Herodotus turning to Archimedes (let's just say they lived together, alright?) and saying "You know, I think one day people will walk on the moon." And get the reply "Bullshit! That's impossible! Tell me how it could be achieved! It's too far to walk, for starters."
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Old Mar 17th, 2010, 12:11 AM       
Suddenly, this thread has become too long to read.
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Kitsunexus Kitsunexus is offline
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Old Mar 17th, 2010, 10:27 AM       
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Suddenly, this thread has become too long to read.
Then don't?

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Old Mar 17th, 2010, 09:30 PM       
Way ahead of you, Poindexter.
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Old Mar 18th, 2010, 12:21 AM       
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Originally Posted by Tadao View Post
but I've been told that if I can dream it, I can do it!
I know you're probably being an ass here, but it's really really true.
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Old Mar 19th, 2010, 05:21 AM       
this guys totally right though. i just watced the matrix recently and in it they talk about how the world was too perfect (AT FIRST) and that the brain couldn't comprehend it and everybody DIEd.

ENTIRE CROPS WERE LOST, MR ANDERSON.
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Kitsunexus Kitsunexus is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2010, 10:04 AM       
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this guys totally right though. i just watced the matrix recently and in it they talk about how the world was too perfect (AT FIRST) and that the brain couldn't comprehend it and everybody DIEd.

ENTIRE CROPS WERE LOST, MR ANDERSON.
Uck. >_< I don't mean "too perfect" in the Matrix sense, because Agent Smith meant they made the virtual world a utopia and humans didn't like it so they suicided like a Jihadian.

When I mean "too perfect" I mean SHITLOADS OF EXTRANEOUS DETAIL THAT IS ACTUALLY NECESSARY.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2010, 11:11 AM       
YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GONE BECAUSE THEY ARE 100% RIGHT.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2010, 11:14 AM       
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YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GONE BECAUSE THEY ARE 100% RIGHT.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2010, 11:44 AM        question
the nano will be the future tech off course coz it could make all things better ... what do u think tadao... don't u believe people
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Old Mar 22nd, 2010, 11:57 AM       
thanks...
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Old Mar 22nd, 2010, 12:48 PM       
I wish I had history enabled, because yesterday I found a thread on a blog where Bruce Dell (CEO of Unlimited Detail and the guy from the video) basically ADMITTED that it was useless for animation, and would be background-only for quite some time.

Here it is:
http://www.tkarena.com/Articles/tabi...e-Know-It.aspx

"the system isn’t ray tracing at all or anything like ray tracing. Ray tracing uses up lots of nasty multiplication and divide operators and so isn’t very fast or friendly.
Unlimited Detail is a sorting algorithm that retrieves only the 3d atoms (I wont say voxels any more it seems that word doesn’t have the prestige in the games industry that it enjoys in medicine and the sciences) that are needed, exactly one for each pixel on the screen, it displays them using a very different procedure from individual 3d to 2d conversion, instead we use a mass 3d to 2d conversion that shares the common elements of the 2d positions of all the dots combined. And so we get lots of geometry and lots of speed, speed isn’t fantastic yet compared to hardware, but its very good for a software application that’s not written for dual core. We get about 24-30 fps 1024*768 for that demo of the pyramids of monsters. This will probably be released as “backgrounds only” for the next few years, until we have made a lot more tools to work with, then we will move in to sprites as well."

Voxels and sprites? Sega Saturn much?
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