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Old May 1st, 2004, 02:16 PM        Arabs furious over prison photos
Just what we need to help our little image problem.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...eax/index.html

Arabs repulsed, furious over prison photos

Saturday, May 1, 2004 Posted: 1:00 PM EDT (1700 GMT)

(CNN) -- Graphic pictures showing the apparent abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. and British soldiers in Iraq have angered Arabs across the world, as well as U.S. and British officials.

The images of U.S. soldiers' actions were first broadcast Wednesday by U.S. TV network CBS and then by Al-Arabiya network, based in the United Arab Emirates, and Qatar-based Al-Jazeera on Friday.

Newspapers across the Arab world ran the photographs of U.S. soldiers humiliating hooded, naked detainees at Abu Ghraib prison on their front pages. Newspapers in Iraq did not carry the photos.

The U.S. military said six soldiers have been charged with criminal offenses for abusing inmates at Abu Ghraib prison, which was infamous under Saddam Hussein's reign.

"It would appear to us that if, in fact, the pictures are what they appear to be, they will face a court of law, a criminal court of law, and they will have to face a judge and a jury for their actions," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said.

With Arabs still reeling from the anger caused by the pictures aired initially by CBS, news of photographs showing British soldiers apparently abusing Iraqi prisoners, published in London's Daily Mirror newspaper on Saturday, spread through the Arab world.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said any abuse of Iraqi prisoners was "completely and totally unacceptable" and, if the photographs proved to be genuine, he would "condemn it utterly."

"We went to Iraq to get rid of that sort of thing, not to do it," Blair said.

"I think in fairness however, we should say, that there are thousands of British troops in Iraq doing a very brave, extraordinary job on behalf of the Iraqi people and on behalf of our country to make the country better," he added.

British Army commander Gen. Michael Jackson, speaking on behalf of Britain's minister of defense, said he was aware of the allegations and that the ministry has launched an investigation.

"If proven, not only is such appalling conduct clearly unlawful, but it also contravenes the British Army's high standards of conduct," Jackson said in a statement.

The front page of Saturday's Daily Mirror shows a man dressed in fatigues urinating on a hooded and restrained person, with blood seeping from the hood. Among other photos inside the paper is one of a man ramming a gun into the groin of a hooded man.

As news of the photographs spread through the Arab world, there were warnings that it could severely damage relations between British troops and local people.

Ahmed al-Sheik, editor-in-chief of Arab TV news Al-Jazeera, said U.K. forces in Basra prided themselves on being able to patrol the streets without hard helmets or body armor.

But he said: "When these pictures come to be seen by the Iraqi public, I think things will change. These scenes are humiliating not only to the Iraqis, but to every Arab citizen around the world," the U.K. Press Association reported.

Shadow Foreign Secretary Michael Ancram called for a "swift full and in-depth inquiry" into what appeared to be "wholly unacceptable and damaging" misconduct.

And Liberal Democrats, who opposed the war, demanded that Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon appear before the Commons on Tuesday to make a statement.

Party leader Charles Kennedy said: "If true, such treatment of people is a total disgrace and a disservice to all that we stand for and to what needs to be achieved in Iraq. "This issue must be resolved as soon as possible before more damage is done to the reputation of our forces."

Anger in Arab capitals

A government-leaning newspaper in Egypt, Akhbar el-Yom, showed the photographs of U.S. soldiers posing by naked, hooded inmates, under the banner "The Scandal". Al-Wafd, an opposition paper, displayed similar photos beneath the words "The Shame," reported The Associated Press.

In Cairo, a spokesman for the Arab League said it had complained of abuses by U.S.-led forces after a mission to Iraq in December. The League feared more cases of ill-treatment were going unnoticed, he said.

"It is beyond the words of despicable acts and disgust that we feel at watching such photographs," Hossam Zaki told Reuters.

"The irony of it is that Saddam Hussein never really held a banner of spreading freedom...He was an autocratic ruler, a dictator, a repressive ruler, whatever you want to call him. It was expected to witness such atrocities under his rule," he said, according to the Reuters report.

"But to have the American soldiers supposedly bringing freedom and democracy and the American way of life to this part of the world, spreading this kind of shameful misconduct, that is an irony that to my taste is very sickening," he said, according to Reuters.

Zaki said the Arab League mission had heard similar accounts of abuse in Iraqi prisons, but did not have supporting evidence. But he said the mission had raised its concerns with the Iraqi Governing Council and the U.S. embassy on its return to Cairo.

"(It) is most likely that there are other cases that have not been photographed," he told Reuters.

"Shame on America. How can they convince us now that it is the bastion of democracy, freedoms and human rights? Why do we blame our dictators then?" asked Mustafa Saad, who was reading morning papers in a downtown Cairo cafe, the A.P. reported.

President Bush Friday expressed disgust at the images, saying the apparent mistreatment of the Iraqi prisoners "does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America."

Mohammed Hassan Taha, an editor at Nile Sports News Television, said Arabs should not allow the matter to pass quietly, according to the AP dispatch. "This is not humiliation of Iraqis, it is humiliation of all Arabs," said Taha, while buying a newspaper with the photos on its cover.

Dara Nor al-Din, a former judge and member of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, said the torture of prisoners and detainees or showing them naked contradicts principles of human rights.

"We used to criticize Saddam's regime regarding the beating of detained people, so why should we accept to repeat the same tragedy. This is not acceptable," Nor al-Din told AP.

At Baghdad's Mustansiriyah University, student Ahmad Taher, 24, asked, "Is this the way the Americans treat prisoners?"

"Americans claim that they respect freedom and democracy, but only in their country," Taher, 24, added.

Hussein al-Saeedi, spokesman for Kuwait's al-Salaf radical Islamic group, said the images "make every sensible person doubt all the principles Western democracies are offering" and show the need for an end to the U.S. occupation.

"America justified its invasion of Iraq by saying the country was under a dictatorship. Unfortunately, Americans are now torturing the Iraqi people in the same place Saddam tortured them," he said.

In Syria, Damascus merchant Sahban Alawi, 45, asked "what's the difference between them and Saddam Hussein? They are doing to Iraq more than what he did."

Iraqis saw the images of abuse via television. Iraq's major newspapers, including those at odds with the U.S.-led occupation, did not publish the photographs, which have been splashed across the pages of Saturday's European publications.

"I can't describe what I felt when I saw those scenes; they revolted me and proved the barbarity of the occupation forces," said Mohammad Salman, a traffic policeman, Reuters reported. "What's the difference between them and Saddam? They are finishing what he started," he said.
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Old May 1st, 2004, 03:50 PM       
I may have already mentioned this elsewhere in the forum, but a kid I knew in highschool who's serving in special forces operations doing building raids was caught taking pictures of some of the people he killed to bring home and show off.





I'm glad our humanitarian effort in Iraq is going so well.
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Old May 1st, 2004, 07:17 PM       
That black hooded guy creeped the fuck outta me...

I don't see how anybody can be ok with it, it's pretty bad if its all true to the pictures...
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Old May 1st, 2004, 09:17 PM       
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And we are suprised that they do this why?

P.S. Is still wrong.
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Old May 1st, 2004, 09:23 PM       
Winning hearts and minds, people. Winning hearts and minds.
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Old May 1st, 2004, 11:16 PM       
All the photos from cbs: http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

This is fucking sick. Way to add tarnish to our already shitty image. Now any Iraqi's who maybe just hated Bush but not ALL Americans have a reason to change their mind.
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Old May 1st, 2004, 11:26 PM       
Aw, fuck. Just what we need.

Whoever those two people are in those pictures, they are in deep shit. I hope they get what they deserve.
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Old May 2nd, 2004, 05:09 AM       
They should let the arabs deal with them. A stoning would be fair justice i'd say.
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Old May 2nd, 2004, 04:53 PM       
This is what happens in a war. It is the perfect situtaion to make people do insane shit. You're authorized and encouraged to end other poeples lives and at any instant you might die horribly. It's such a big jump to make people strip and wear hoods and lie on each other for the joy of humiliating them?

In every war, the 'good guys' do terrible, terrible things, and that's if they only do exactly as they're told. I every war some of the 'good guys' go insane or find themsleves in a position to act on dark fanatsies that in a normal life they never never would have. In every war 'good guys' do and see things that will torment them the rest of their lives, things way outside of anything they ever imaggined temseves capable of.

That's what war is. Institutionalized insanity. If you think you can send kids to war and expect they'll stay sane and follow the rules you're dreaming. War is barbarity. That's the whole point. If we don't want our guys to engage in barbarity, we shoud try much harder to keep them out of wars.
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Old May 3rd, 2004, 06:37 AM       
I agree, people act this way on their own, so other people think we are all this way?
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Old May 3rd, 2004, 05:38 PM       
I was seriously talking to my friend about how we can't say all the soldiers are brave virtous people. I'm pretty sure there's more assholes in the army than just that...
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Old May 3rd, 2004, 10:33 PM       
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...tos/index.html

Doubts over UK 'abuse' pictures
Monday, May 3, 2004 Posted: 9:56 AM EDT (1356 GMT)

The Daily Mirror stands by its story.


LONDON, England (CNN) -- Doubts are growing over the authenticity of photographs that allegedly show British troops mistreating an Iraqi prisoner.

Some British military officials have cast doubt on the pictures -- first published in the Daily Mirror newspaper -- saying the clothing and equipment pictured is not currently troop issue.

But military and photographic experts have pointed out a series of inaccuracies and inconsistencies, suggesting the pictures were fakes.

The experts say the SA80 rifle shown in the images was not issued to British soldiers currently serving in Iraq.

They also say the alleged captive's shirt depicts the pre-1988 Iraqi flag and is too clean to be that old.

And the location of the photos suggest the inside of a Bedford truck -- but experts say those vehicles are not being used by British forces in southern Iraq.

The Mirror's pictures, which it said came from two soldiers in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, showed soldiers apparently kicking, stamping and urinating on a hooded Iraqi.

It said they were taken during an eight-hour beating in Basra, southern Iraq, where Britain has around 7,500 troops.

The Daily Mirror is standing by the story and on Monday published more detailed reports of alleged abuse and hinted it may publish more images.

"Despite the whispering campaign and dodgy briefings that went on yesterday, the Daily Mirror has no doubt that the allegations made by the two soldiers who came to us were true," the newspaper said in an editorial on Monday.

But the newspaper seemingly acknowledged the apparent inconsistencies could not easily be explained.

"The two squaddies (British soldiers) admit they cannot answer questions regarding minor details in the photos which were taken months ago," said the newspaper.

A Mirror spokesman declined to say whether the newspaper paid the two men for the pictures.

A former commander of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment dismissed the photographs as having "too many inconsistencies."

Colonel David Black told the BBC on Monday the vehicle shown in the pictures was never sent to the war zone in Iraq and the uniforms were not the same as those worn by the regiment.

But John Nichol, a former British soldier captured during the 1991 Gulf War, believes authenticity isn't the issue.

"If we find out in a week's time or four week's that they're not authentic -- it doesn't matter -- the whole Arab world have seen them and it is turning Arab opinion against the forces in Iraq and that can only do immense damage to those troops trying to do the best they can," Nichol told CNN. (Nichol interview)

British officials say an investigation into the matter is ongoing.


"We want to find out how this came about," retired Col. Bob Stewart, former NATO commander in Bosnia, said.

"If people did it and they're within our ranks, those of us that are against it -- everyone -- will want them in prison. If it's some kind of sicko's joke, I want them in prison too."

Prime Minister Tony Blair also condemned the alleged abuse, but stressed it did not reflect the conduct of the vast majority of coalition troops.

"This is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are in Iraq," Blair's official spokesman said.

Eight cases of alleged mistreatment by British personnel were being investigated, he confirmed.

American television network CBS has also aired photos of U.S. soldiers apparently engaged in a wide range of abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad.

CNN has not verified the authenticity of those images.

The U.S. military has reprimanded six American soldiers and admonished another in connection with alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the prison.

But a leading human rights group has said graphic pictures shown on TV and in newspapers of alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners by coalition soldiers are the tip of the iceberg and that it has uncovered widespread torture.

London-based Amnesty International said it hoped the images apparently showing detainees being mistreated would force the U.S. and British governments to launch an independent investigation into the abuse claims.
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Old May 3rd, 2004, 11:08 PM       
of course people are going to call into question the authenticity of the pictures. Nothing in this world can pass with out some doubt or controversy especially with something this horrible... :/
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